EPTOn August 03 2012 16:50 DarthPunk wrote:
Although this doesn't address the cases against you I will respond. I posted about you several times during day 2. They are contained within the case you quoted. I don't like to post much during night cycles as all it does is give mafia additional information upon which they can make a night kill. We can't lynch at night so I don't see the point in showing your hand.
This has all been stated previously. But you seem to want me to state it all gain so here goes.
The thing scummy with your day one play is that you lead the mislynch of Golbat for pretty much the entire day.
After the bandwagon had started rolling you said that you read obvious' filter from the previous game and that convinced you enough that Golbat was townie that you unvoted him. You then second the position of others and voted Shady Sands without basing it on reasoning or adding anything to the case.
The reason I believe this is scummy You lead a mislynch then once the ball was rolling you switched voted onto someone elses case. I believe you did that in order to distance you self from the mislynch and to set up a potential mis-lynch day 2. After receiving pressure from this turn of events from myself and Keirathi. you revert to your original position on Golbat. You were still one of the last to vote for golbat, despite leading his mislynch and amidst the confusion i believe you achieved your goal. To lead a mislynch on golbat whilst attempting to distance yourself from it, and potentially set up a mislynch on shady sands for the following cycle. I Have stated this a few times. I apologise if it was not clear enough to understand.
Edit before having to double post (EBHTDP)
I am still confused by large parts of his play. For instance the part about lynching semi-lurkers seems sort of like what he's doing. GK hasn't posted nearly as many times as Prom himself, myself, Keir, Ange, Obvious, or Shady. 6 players of 12 left have 3 or more pages in their filter, the other 6 have 2. GK has spent a lot of his time defending himself, so if you take that away he's pretty lurky. But the caffeine is wearing off now, see y'all in the morning. Still, I like the content he generated with that post on GK, so I'll be watching Prom closely. I seriously need to pass out now though :/
Although this doesn't address the cases against you I will respond. I posted about you several times during day 2. They are contained within the case you quoted. I don't like to post much during night cycles as all it does is give mafia additional information upon which they can make a night kill. We can't lynch at night so I don't see the point in showing your hand.
This has all been stated previously. But you seem to want me to state it all gain so here goes.
The thing scummy with your day one play is that you lead the mislynch of Golbat for pretty much the entire day.
After the bandwagon had started rolling you said that you read obvious' filter from the previous game and that convinced you enough that Golbat was townie that you unvoted him. You then second the position of others and voted Shady Sands without basing it on reasoning or adding anything to the case.
The reason I believe this is scummy You lead a mislynch then once the ball was rolling you switched voted onto someone elses case. I believe you did that in order to distance you self from the mislynch and to set up a potential mis-lynch day 2. After receiving pressure from this turn of events from myself and Keirathi. you revert to your original position on Golbat. You were still one of the last to vote for golbat, despite leading his mislynch and amidst the confusion i believe you achieved your goal. To lead a mislynch on golbat whilst attempting to distance yourself from it, and potentially set up a mislynch on shady sands for the following cycle. I Have stated this a few times. I apologise if it was not clear enough to understand.
Edit before having to double post (EBHTDP)
I am still confused by large parts of his play. For instance the part about lynching semi-lurkers seems sort of like what he's doing. GK hasn't posted nearly as many times as Prom himself, myself, Keir, Ange, Obvious, or Shady. 6 players of 12 left have 3 or more pages in their filter, the other 6 have 2. GK has spent a lot of his time defending himself, so if you take that away he's pretty lurky. But the caffeine is wearing off now, see y'all in the morning. Still, I like the content he generated with that post on GK, so I'll be watching Prom closely. I seriously need to pass out now though :/
On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote:
DP then goes on to say that my not wanting to vote without information is scummy. Why? Scum know the flip, and with their handy-dandy knowledge of who's who its a lot easier to understand peoples' play. Who is killed doesn't matter as much to scum either because as long as it furthers their goal of remaining undetected, they are happy with the result. They keep their kp. Town, on the other hand, gets only one vote for one lynch per day. With very limited information, trying to get information before voting seems rather more suited towards town play than scum.
DP then goes on to say that my not wanting to vote without information is scummy. Why? Scum know the flip, and with their handy-dandy knowledge of who's who its a lot easier to understand peoples' play. Who is killed doesn't matter as much to scum either because as long as it furthers their goal of remaining undetected, they are happy with the result. They keep their kp. Town, on the other hand, gets only one vote for one lynch per day. With very limited information, trying to get information before voting seems rather more suited towards town play than scum.
I disagree. You had all day to review the thread, filters and to post cases. Yet the posts you made were very wishy-washy. etc and non-committal. Waiting to see who others will vote for is scummy behaviour because it allows you to just join the most popular bandwagon in order to seem less conspicuous. Which is Exactly what you did in the end. During your vote you were wishy-washy and it seemed you were distancing yourself from the mislynch. I feel like what i have already posted on this topic makes sense. If you didn't think prox was scum why did you vote for him? If you did why were you so wishywashy and attempt to distance yourself from the lynch before he flipped the elegant solution is that you knew he was going to flip green and wanted to distance yourself from the mislynch but still ensure it happened. Therefore I feel it is scummy.
On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote:
Again DP completely ignores what he just posted on me to build his nonsensical case on me. The previous thing that he called me out for being wishy-washy is my reason for thinking the lynch on Prom was a bad choice. Prom's play was confusing, but it didn't help scum really. He called me out for thinking it was a weak case but ignores my explanation for why and then calls me out for not explaining why I thought it was a weak case. Wow, that logic seemed pretty circular.
Long story short, the few things in this case that might seem weird have no justification for why they are scummy, and the rest is DP citing one short period of time and calling me out for doing one thing and the opposite of that thing. DP is either too busy eating glue to think, too biased to think critically, or scum.
Again DP completely ignores what he just posted on me to build his nonsensical case on me. The previous thing that he called me out for being wishy-washy is my reason for thinking the lynch on Prom was a bad choice. Prom's play was confusing, but it didn't help scum really. He called me out for thinking it was a weak case but ignores my explanation for why and then calls me out for not explaining why I thought it was a weak case. Wow, that logic seemed pretty circular.
Long story short, the few things in this case that might seem weird have no justification for why they are scummy, and the rest is DP citing one short period of time and calling me out for doing one thing and the opposite of that thing. DP is either too busy eating glue to think, too biased to think critically, or scum.
I really don't understand this argument at all really. This is not true at all. I thought the cases on you were quite clear and I didn't feel the need to repeat the cases against you again. Your explanations I feel have not been adequate and seem to confirm you are scum because your defense of the case against you has been a mess. Others can understand the points and cases against you. I just assumed you would too.
(as I said previously I am sorry if you feel I have been/am being rude and obnoxious towards you. I am just arguing my case it is not personal)
On August 03 2012 18:40 DarthPunk wrote:
Ok my analysis - ignoring the scum slip which I will get to later.
Zork is playing really badly. He is playing really badly as town OR as scum. He has been confused more than once as to what is happening in the game, who he has suspicions on etc.
Which makes me tend to believe him when he says that he is not paying attention to the thread because of IRL commitments. Because why? what are the scum motivations behind his posts? This is still bad play and hurts town. As I said earlier It isn't easy to get a scum read when there has been so little activity from him. His posts make no sense as either scum or town. He is Lurking though. If we get to LYLO and we have nothing to go off in terms of reads that is a major liability.
on the scum slip. @ange777 I don't think your logic is as iron clad as you believe.
What I think he is trying to say is this. He thinks saying this is scummy. No town player would need to say this, he is town so he wouldn't say it.
It is WIFOM and speculation and is written poorly. (which I hate) yet can't see a scum motivation or plan for this. It is possible that he is scum and that this is the evidence. It is also possible that he is bad at explaining himself, a poor writer and you are reading too much into this.
Your entire case is based around reading a few statements a certain way, and thus seems to be weaker than my case on mordanis and weaker than your case on mordanis (that you seem to have dropped off the face of the earth).
If it comes to a no lynch situation I will be willing to change my vote. (as everyone should be) but at this time the cases on Mordanis are far stronger.
If people are set on lynching lurky players aRyuujin is a stronger lynch IMO. He has less than a one page filter he votes Golbat day 1. went AFK for 2 cycles comes back and puts a vote on mord that just echos my position and then leaves again. I wish we still had a Vig cause aRyuujin has been and will increasingly become a serious liability.
Ok my analysis - ignoring the scum slip which I will get to later.
Zork is playing really badly. He is playing really badly as town OR as scum. He has been confused more than once as to what is happening in the game, who he has suspicions on etc.
Which makes me tend to believe him when he says that he is not paying attention to the thread because of IRL commitments. Because why? what are the scum motivations behind his posts? This is still bad play and hurts town. As I said earlier It isn't easy to get a scum read when there has been so little activity from him. His posts make no sense as either scum or town. He is Lurking though. If we get to LYLO and we have nothing to go off in terms of reads that is a major liability.
on the scum slip. @ange777 I don't think your logic is as iron clad as you believe.
What I think he is trying to say is this. He thinks saying this is scummy. No town player would need to say this, he is town so he wouldn't say it.
It is WIFOM and speculation and is written poorly. (which I hate) yet can't see a scum motivation or plan for this. It is possible that he is scum and that this is the evidence. It is also possible that he is bad at explaining himself, a poor writer and you are reading too much into this.
Your entire case is based around reading a few statements a certain way, and thus seems to be weaker than my case on mordanis and weaker than your case on mordanis (that you seem to have dropped off the face of the earth).
If it comes to a no lynch situation I will be willing to change my vote. (as everyone should be) but at this time the cases on Mordanis are far stronger.
If people are set on lynching lurky players aRyuujin is a stronger lynch IMO. He has less than a one page filter he votes Golbat day 1. went AFK for 2 cycles comes back and puts a vote on mord that just echos my position and then leaves again. I wish we still had a Vig cause aRyuujin has been and will increasingly become a serious liability.
On August 03 2012 20:01 DarthPunk wrote:
When I first saw it last night I saw it the same way that you do, but then I read this.
This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that.
So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid.
The rest of the case is much less developed.
1. semi-lurking
2. posting inconsistently
3. waiting for cases to sheep
These are all true. And I have read his filter several times. However, as I have said before, I feel the cases on mordanis are much stronger.
In terms of the MrMedic thing that you have mentioned a few times. I noticed reading through his filter that he was actually talking about aRyuujin in the post you referenced.
as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town.
If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter.
As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again.
When I first saw it last night I saw it the same way that you do, but then I read this.
This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that.
So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid.
The rest of the case is much less developed.
1. semi-lurking
2. posting inconsistently
3. waiting for cases to sheep
These are all true. And I have read his filter several times. However, as I have said before, I feel the cases on mordanis are much stronger.
In terms of the MrMedic thing that you have mentioned a few times. I noticed reading through his filter that he was actually talking about aRyuujin in the post you referenced.
as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town.
If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter.
As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again.
On August 03 2012 21:03 DarthPunk wrote:
He is making mistakes. But there doesn't seem to be a discernible motive behind them.
If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever.
This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful.
Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do.
He is making mistakes. But there doesn't seem to be a discernible motive behind them.
If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever.
This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful.
Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do.
On August 03 2012 22:29 DarthPunk wrote:
It gives me more of a town vibe because scum are more likely to be careful and not make stupid mistakes like Zork is making. But as you say, making mistakes like that does not mean he is town and he could just as likely be scum.
What I don't understand about the mistakes he made, and this didn't come across in your case on him, Is what motivation could he have for playing so badly? All the other mistakes that have been made in this game to me seem to have been trying to confuse peoples cases, distance themselves from mislynches, cause a mislynch etc.
Thoughts?
It gives me more of a town vibe because scum are more likely to be careful and not make stupid mistakes like Zork is making. But as you say, making mistakes like that does not mean he is town and he could just as likely be scum.
What I don't understand about the mistakes he made, and this didn't come across in your case on him, Is what motivation could he have for playing so badly? All the other mistakes that have been made in this game to me seem to have been trying to confuse peoples cases, distance themselves from mislynches, cause a mislynch etc.
Thoughts?
DP: Why did you change your vote from someone you've been suspicious of literally all game to someone you've only defended, in the middle of a tied vote situation, for the most vague reason possible.
+ Show Spoiler +
Before you call this an OMGUS accusation, remember that DP has literally been tunneling me the entire game. I haven't accused him of anything before now, because his play hadn't struck me as particularly scummy. You could say I'm interested now.
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