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Okie dokie town.
We've just had our first big lynch of the game. So congratulations.
That being said, I think there's a pretty high chance I'll get shot tonight. So before I go, I'd like to at least have a few hours of discussion.
My thesis: I have found the next scum. How?
Look at these two posts:
On August 04 2012 03:05 Zorkmid wrote:I didn't want to have to do this just yet. I am a DoctorOn day one I saved Keir. Day 2 I attempted to save aRyuujin. I tried to breadcrumb this early on. Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
Activity seems woefully slow. I guess that most of you are on different clocks that I am. ##unvote
##vote MordanisI think we're going to lose.
On August 04 2012 03:49 Zorkmid wrote:
Activity seems woefully slow. I guess thAt Most of you Are on Different cloCks that I am.
Zork did a fake doctor roleclaim. His first post at 2 PM seems like a decent roleclaiming post. People ask for clues, and then he dumps the shittiest clue ever. Why?
When I first read it, I thought they were trying to bait the real doctor into claiming, but if they wanted to do that, the clue had to have been good and convincing to regular townies. But then look at the claim/breadcrumb above. Good? Convincing? No, it almost looked like those two Olympics badminton pairs that were both trying to lose so they could get a better quarterfinals draw.
There's no way a claim, even a fake claim, would be this poorly executed. It's so bad that its goal, which is making the real doctor counter-claim him, simply isn't possible with such a bad claim.
So clearly, something is wrong here. This claim, in terms of outing the doctor, doesn't make sense. Nobody would believe him. But Zork is scum--he had to have been doing something.
It's so obviously false it was immediately shot down. There's almost no chance the real doctor will counter claim.
So what's the purpose of this claim?
Look at what happened in the thread three minutes after Zork made his "breadcrumb":
On August 04 2012 03:53 JingleHell wrote:
Yeah, this is weak as hell, Zork. Show me a real breadcrumb. Something specific, not some Da Vinci Code shit.
If that's a town play, it's a bad town play.
##Unvote
##Vote Zorkmid
If you can't show a real breadcrumb for the N1 save, this is just desperation.
Golly, pretty fast, no? Put on your hats for a second:
What if the point of the claim is to give cover for scum to switch their vote?
Now let's entertain this theory for a moment, and go digging through Jinglehell's post history. He starts by targeting both me and Keir:
Of course, if I'm right about Shady, Keirathi will need to be under the microscope for attempts to head things off before they get into voting territory.
Then what happens? Keir gets nightkilled. Then I claim and JH posts on Ange777:
+ Show Spoiler [Posts on Ange777] +On August 03 2012 01:18 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 16:57 Ange777 wrote:@JingleHell:On August 02 2012 06:41 JingleHell wrote:
Well, either SS is a VERY smart rolecop scum, (plausible, and this would be one sexy play if that was the case), or he's a mason. For now, I think, I'll give BOTD instead of WIFOMing to death, and move on to something I've been interested in for a while now, but refrained from comment on. There is no rolecop scum in this setup. Please check the OP about the setup. Mr Ange777, I note that you at one point wanted me to dive through the thread, and post reads on as many people as I could. On August 02 2012 03:36 Ange777 wrote:On August 02 2012 03:28 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 03:22 Ange777 wrote:
I have been rereading the entire day 2 conversation in light of Promethelax' alignment and will be posting soon. Your filter is unfortunately the biggest null read at the moment so how about you state your other suspicions? Or are you only suspicious of Shady at the moment? Well, ignoring the fact that I still haven't finished reading all of the thread yet, I personally prefer not to branch out too much at a time. I'd rather get answers to one set of suspicions than dilute the thread with 20 different tangential arguments. Accusing me of being a null read is sort of reasonable, of course, but frankly, all I can do now is either try to make a case on every single person, which would provide some content but look fishy, or wait for enough discussion to happen for people to get a read on me. I have absolutely no idea why anybody with a pro-town mentality would want me to spam a huge pile of clutter trying to make sense out of 600-700 posts simultaneously. At best, trying to make reads on everyone still alive based on discussions I wasn't in for would amount to a lot of WIFOM. I get the not having finished reading all of the thread part. And while I understand that it takes a while to get into a game at the start of night 2, I still believe that you can make good reads on the other players because you haven't been here for the discussion. It makes you unbiased. And looking back at the conversation after a mislynch only considering the flip and not your own judgement may be a plus point for you. Unfortunately, shortly after that point, you suddenly were perfectly happy to jump onto the real Sand Shady. On August 02 2012 04:13 Ange777 wrote:
Okay, so one player I am unhappy with at the moment is Shady and his last minute cases before the deadline.
The only motive I can see for this is to set up a fall guy, namely myself, for the death of one Shady Sands, by encouraging me down that track. I was already wondering if this was a possibility before the flip and claim, and now... well, you don't look so hot to me. Can you please explain a rational and plausible townie motive for this? Are you serious Jingle? This is ridiculous. You clearly stated that you did not want to make any rushed reads as you have not finished reading the thread and then you do exactly what you said you would not do. I had my suspicions about Shady early in day 1 which where never cleared until his now believable mason claim. I was in no way encouraging you instead I was giving my own read before deadline. Assuming that this has a scum motivation is just a huge huge stretch. And just to be clear, I never once said that you should post reads on as many people as you could. I asked if you had any other scum reads or whether Shady was your only scum read as you only commented on him since you subbed in. Now that you are accusing me of setting up a mislynch I should be able to assume that you have indeed finished reading the thread. So how about you give us your other scum reads? Seeing as quite a lot of people seemed quite excited for you to join this game I had hoped you would contribute more. At this moment, I don't see any pro town behaviour at all. This isn't a defense. You aren't showing me a town motive. You're dismissing a question. That's not a quick read. That's called discussing things and looking for potential slips. It's how I work. Don't like it? Too bad. Frankly, it looks like you're trying to push me into playing differently because you don't like what I said, with an implicit threat to try and get me lynched if I don't do what you want. It's shady as all hell. ##Vote Ange777Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior. Funny how all of a sudden you don't like the unbiased outsider when he sees something you said as funny. On August 03 2012 03:35 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:02 Ange777 wrote:On August 03 2012 01:18 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 16:57 Ange777 wrote:@JingleHell:On August 02 2012 06:41 JingleHell wrote:
Well, either SS is a VERY smart rolecop scum, (plausible, and this would be one sexy play if that was the case), or he's a mason. For now, I think, I'll give BOTD instead of WIFOMing to death, and move on to something I've been interested in for a while now, but refrained from comment on. There is no rolecop scum in this setup. Please check the OP about the setup. Mr Ange777, I note that you at one point wanted me to dive through the thread, and post reads on as many people as I could. On August 02 2012 03:36 Ange777 wrote:On August 02 2012 03:28 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 03:22 Ange777 wrote:
I have been rereading the entire day 2 conversation in light of Promethelax' alignment and will be posting soon. Your filter is unfortunately the biggest null read at the moment so how about you state your other suspicions? Or are you only suspicious of Shady at the moment? Well, ignoring the fact that I still haven't finished reading all of the thread yet, I personally prefer not to branch out too much at a time. I'd rather get answers to one set of suspicions than dilute the thread with 20 different tangential arguments. Accusing me of being a null read is sort of reasonable, of course, but frankly, all I can do now is either try to make a case on every single person, which would provide some content but look fishy, or wait for enough discussion to happen for people to get a read on me. I have absolutely no idea why anybody with a pro-town mentality would want me to spam a huge pile of clutter trying to make sense out of 600-700 posts simultaneously. At best, trying to make reads on everyone still alive based on discussions I wasn't in for would amount to a lot of WIFOM. I get the not having finished reading all of the thread part. And while I understand that it takes a while to get into a game at the start of night 2, I still believe that you can make good reads on the other players because you haven't been here for the discussion. It makes you unbiased. And looking back at the conversation after a mislynch only considering the flip and not your own judgement may be a plus point for you. Unfortunately, shortly after that point, you suddenly were perfectly happy to jump onto the real Sand Shady. On August 02 2012 04:13 Ange777 wrote:
Okay, so one player I am unhappy with at the moment is Shady and his last minute cases before the deadline.
The only motive I can see for this is to set up a fall guy, namely myself, for the death of one Shady Sands, by encouraging me down that track. I was already wondering if this was a possibility before the flip and claim, and now... well, you don't look so hot to me. Can you please explain a rational and plausible townie motive for this? Are you serious Jingle? This is ridiculous. You clearly stated that you did not want to make any rushed reads as you have not finished reading the thread and then you do exactly what you said you would not do. I had my suspicions about Shady early in day 1 which where never cleared until his now believable mason claim. I was in no way encouraging you instead I was giving my own read before deadline. Assuming that this has a scum motivation is just a huge huge stretch. And just to be clear, I never once said that you should post reads on as many people as you could. I asked if you had any other scum reads or whether Shady was your only scum read as you only commented on him since you subbed in. Now that you are accusing me of setting up a mislynch I should be able to assume that you have indeed finished reading the thread. So how about you give us your other scum reads? Seeing as quite a lot of people seemed quite excited for you to join this game I had hoped you would contribute more. At this moment, I don't see any pro town behaviour at all. This isn't a defense. You aren't showing me a town motive. You're dismissing a question. That's not a quick read. That's called discussing things and looking for potential slips. It's how I work. Don't like it? Too bad. Frankly, it looks like you're trying to push me into playing differently because you don't like what I said, with an implicit threat to try and get me lynched if I don't do what you want. It's shady as all hell. ##Vote Ange777Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior. Funny how all of a sudden you don't like the unbiased outsider when he sees something you said as funny. This case against me is simply bad. I'll start from the beginning: You are asking me for a town motivation for asking about your scum reads? Since when is it scummy to pressure others for their reads especially when that player has not taken any stance at all in the game? I have been completely open with whoever I thought was suspicious and posted cases or questions regarding those players. You just subbed in. We don't know anything about your alignment. Of course it is in the interest of town to get an understanding for whom you believe is suspicious. You saw my explanation: Because you were not involved in previous discussion, you were unbiased and therefore perfectly able to judge what we had posted. Keir agreed with me in this point as well. Then you accuse me of setting you up for a mislynch. You seem to have a brilliant imagination for I can't make up my mind why you would think that. I have stated my suspicions about Shady several times. Giving one's read before the night ends is perfectly normal as I could have died that night and I wanted to make sure that everyone knows whom I believe is suspicious. If I had indeed been trying to set you up in a mislynch because of your suspicions regarding Shady, shouldn't I have taken a step back from my own case against Shady so that I could accuse you? So it seems that your explanation for not giving any further comments on players is that you have a different playstyle. One that includes discussion and potential scumslips. Fine, but then show it to me! Oh no wait ... seems like in your entire post you skipped the discussion about Zorkmid and his scumslip! Instead you build up a huge case against me based on what? Literally nothing. Can the Jingle, who was hyped when joining the game as the savior, really be this bad? No, I don't think so. I believe you saw your scum buddy Zork in trouble and went out to discredit my case and me.
Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior.
So "turning things back on you" would be scummy. Cute. Because somehow YOU turned things back on to me. And to be clear, right now I am not pushing you for playing in a different way than me! I am pushing your case for playing the most obvious scum play I have ever seen. Dear you: You're either trying to get me to answer for the terrible play of the guy I replaced, or asking me to do things I've already explained why I don't want to do. When I ask you what your motive is for something, you both OMGUS me and try to make it sound like I'm the one dropping an OMGUS. Yes, I find that scummy. Start defending yourself. Attacking me does not qualify as a defense.
But his accusations on Ange don't get traction, then posts a one liner to justify his vote on GK:
You seem awfully convinced that certain people are scum based on flips that haven't happened, and that's kind of an obvious slip.
Then flips to vote Mordanis to "counter Ange and GK." So basically no good reason to vote for Mord. This is where things get a little interesting, because around this time, he makes this post:
On August 04 2012 00:52 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 00:46 Obvious.660 wrote:
Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep. I think that in a game going this well for scum, a direct counter wagon would be incredibly stupid, throwing someone under the bus would be better. At the very least, I think the scum votes are probably split, unless they're completely ignoring their coach, because their coach would be telling them not to risk guilt by association on the entire team when they're doing this well with so many sheep in town.Long story short, it's possible, but I personally find it unlikely due to the incredible level of risk involved, and wouldn't be terribly surprised if both are actually town.
First off, there's no need to talk about what scum might or might not be doing in the main thread--that gives scum chances to improve their behavior.
Second, he's basically saying that scum are probably split between Mord and Zork, except him and Zork both piled on Mordanis. Unless JingleHell somehow knew that Zork would flip red, why would he make this post? This is almost a defense post from JingleHell, in defense of a red flip (Zorkmid) that hasn't happened yet.
Then of course you get that little charade with Zorkmid's fakeclaim and Mordanis immediately calling him out on it. JingleHell feels so eager to make fun of Zork that he ridicules it 3 times in a row:
On August 04 2012 04:06 JingleHell wrote:
Well, it could be an anagram for a word in a different language, then if we apply some advanced numerology, eat some peyote, and go on a vision quest, we can discern that his "breadcrumb" actually doesn't mean a damn thing.
On August 04 2012 04:11 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 04:10 alan133 wrote:It did not make much sense... Let me fix that for you. ActIvity seeMs woefully slow. I guess that Most of you Are on diFferent clocks that I Am. Done. ##Unvote: Mordanis
##Vote: Zorkmid Lol. That one does, sadly, make more sense. And illustrates the hilarity.
On August 04 2012 04:16 JingleHell wrote:
So much for my tactic of assuming that the guy who sounds like he's smoking some good shit is actually town. But I can't imagine a good townie reason to fakeclaim.
Although it is an excellent way to insult the IQ of the entire town?
From a town perspective, there's no need to gloat about the fakeclaim at all to justify a vote switch. There's no need to guess about what the scum might or might not be doing in the main thread. There's also no reason to say scum is split or not split when you are voting on the same side that scum is, before you even find out they're scum. There's no reason at all to do any of this... except if you are scum.
This was the first scum mistake, town. Treasure it. And if I die tonight, don't let this opportunity go to waste.
##Vote JingleHell
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Then of course you get that little charade with Zorkmid's fakeclaim and Mordanis immediately calling him out on it. JingleHell feels so eager to make fun of Zork that he ridicules it 3 times in a row:
EBWOP: Should read:
Then of course you get that little charade with Zorkmid's fakeclaim and JingleHell immediately calling him out on it. JingleHell feels so eager to make fun of Zork that he ridicules it 3 times in a row:
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You are, in fact, aware it's night, yes shady? If you actually think that's what happened, feel free to lead a mislynch on me and feel like an idiot for discounting what I just contributed against GK and alan. I was asked to replace in, for some unknown reason, and frankly I think Marv would have done better to mercymod-kill, given the sheeping levels in this game.
A town like this losing faster would be a huge improvement over subjecting a replacement to it.
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By the way, answer the following question without managing to sound like a dumbass.
Would I also look suspicious if I had not switched votes after that pathetic of a fakeclaim?
My bet is yes.
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On August 04 2012 06:48 JingleHell wrote:
By the way, answer the following question without managing to sound like a dumbass.
Would I also look suspicious if I had not switched votes after that pathetic of a fakeclaim?
My bet is yes.
Yeah, you started looking suspicious from this post onwards:
+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]On August 04 2012 00:52 JingleHell wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 04 2012 00:46 Obvious.660 wrote:
Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep. [/QUOTE]
I think that in a game going this well for scum, a direct counter wagon would be incredibly stupid, throwing someone under the bus would be better. At the very least, I think the scum votes are probably split, unless they're completely ignoring their coach, because their coach would be telling them not to risk guilt by association on the entire team when they're doing this well with so many sheep in town.
But the fakeclaim switch, you just looked much, much worse.
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So returning to the theory that scum were bandwagoned together on Mord lynch, that leaves aRyuujin and alan133 as the other possible suspects.
When I get some more time tonight (after dinner), I'll be looking through their posting histories as well.
We got this, town--two more to go.
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If you think that statement is suspicious, I can't help you much. It's merely conventional wisdom. If scum is doing strong overall, having the entire scumteam piled up to try and save someone is a bad idea.
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Also, look through Zorkmid's filter. If you'll notice, there's one person who swapped even later than I did, who even I suspect, who Zorkmid NEVER seemed to be interested in, despite this player being in the game the whole time. That's Alan.
Alan starts by wanting to discuss tons of policy. Link
Huge WIFOM, no commitment. Link
Wishy Washy on Golbat, creates distance from a mislynch. Link
Defends Zork lightly. Link
Kisses up a little, and references a game where out of several cases made, I only had a 50% scum lynch record. Link
OMGUS against Mord Link
If you really think I'm the next best lynch, well... I'm probably not.
I switched at a point where there was no way to avoid suspicion. Please don't make a case revolve around that, as it leads towards confirmation bias.
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I should also add that I'm eager to hear JingleHell's defense as well--preferably in a format longer than 2-sentence posts.
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My primary defense will be that I'm a much worse target than Alan. Given that I'm under suspicion for some rather paltry WIFOM based on one of a couple of things.
1: When I ask people why they said something, they repeat it, and OMGUS me.
2: I came in looking at people who weren't the major targets, which, ironically, people wanted me to do.
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Hey guys, sorry I missed the deadline but we finally lynched scum! Good job 
I only quickly skimmed through and what I saw proves me right in my case against scum Jingle. It starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#752
If there are any doubts, I strongly urge you to go back and re-read that post and the following conversation with Jingle. Furthermore Shady did an awesome case on Jingle and explained the motive for that more than obvious fake claim pretty well.
It's after 2 am now, so I'll be off to bed. I will definitely be back before deadline to give my read for the remaining scum besides Jingle.
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On August 04 2012 09:17 Ange777 wrote:Hey guys, sorry I missed the deadline but we finally lynched scum! Good job I only quickly skimmed through and what I saw proves me right in my case against scum Jingle. It starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#752 If there are any doubts, I strongly urge you to go back and re-read that post and the following conversation with Jingle. Furthermore Shady did an awesome case on Jingle and explained the motive for that more than obvious fake claim pretty well. It's after 2 am now, so I'll be off to bed. I will definitely be back before deadline to give my read for the remaining scum besides Jingle.
Welcome back, please don't miss votes like that again... makes me a sad townie.
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On August 04 2012 14:07 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 09:17 Ange777 wrote:Hey guys, sorry I missed the deadline but we finally lynched scum! Good job I only quickly skimmed through and what I saw proves me right in my case against scum Jingle. It starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#752 If there are any doubts, I strongly urge you to go back and re-read that post and the following conversation with Jingle. Furthermore Shady did an awesome case on Jingle and explained the motive for that more than obvious fake claim pretty well. It's after 2 am now, so I'll be off to bed. I will definitely be back before deadline to give my read for the remaining scum besides Jingle. Welcome back, please don't miss votes like that again... makes me a sad townie.
That being said, thanks a ton for starting the train on Zork. Clears you as a second confirmed townie in my eyes, since I think it would be exceedingly unlikely for scum to bus their own when they were doing so well.
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@Jingle:
On August 04 2012 07:48 JingleHell wrote:
My primary defense will be that I'm a much worse target than Alan. Given that I'm under suspicion for some rather paltry WIFOM based on one of a couple of things.
1: When I ask people why they said something, they repeat it, and OMGUS me.
2: I came in looking at people who weren't the major targets, which, ironically, people wanted me to do.
I guess that is referring to me again:
1. You asked me why I would make a case against Shady. I said it's because I was suspicious of him. Then you twist my words saying that is no defense because I didn't give a reason for being suspicious of him. My reasons were stated in the case against Shady which originally lead to your suspicions against me. You were just deliberately wasting my time and trying to discredit me.
2. I never once said that I wanted you to look at major targets. I have repeated myself over and over again explaining that I only wanted to know whether or not you had more reads except for Shady. When I started my case on Zork, he was no major target at all. Still you refused to comment on him for a long time.
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On August 04 2012 07:07 Shady Sands wrote:
So returning to the theory that scum were bandwagoned together on Mord lynch, that leaves aRyuujin and alan133 as the other possible suspects.
When I get some more time tonight (after dinner), I'll be looking through their posting histories as well.
We got this, town--two more to go.
Ok, so here are my reads on aRyuujin and alan133. I think both are scummy, but still within the "reasonable doubt" category. Can't call for a lynch on them yet.
aRyuujin is lurky.
His post count is less than half of Keir's, even though Keir got nightkilled over 48 hours ago. But we can't go off post counts alone. His few "content" posts have been tight, logical, but mostly rehash of what other people have already posted.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 02 2012 11:24 aRyuujin wrote:I'm suspicious of Mordanis now, mainly because of the sudden shift in his play. Initially, he's really into scum hunting. He's a somewhat controversial figure, but people seem to believe he's a town player, begins he's quite active in scumhunting. However, as soon as day 2 begins, he suddenly begins to quiet down. Even more important than the lack of posts is the sudden change in the posts themselves: Initially: Show nested quote + He even tries to end the discussion by agreeing that the case on me is open and shut. Vague Pro-town comments + early excuse + bandwagon-ing + anti-discussion = quadruple scummy. So for right now at least: ##Vote: Golbat . Quotes like this show how he behaves decisively, voting on the spot. Now, let's look at his recent behavior: His discussion about prome: Show nested quote +I'm really confused by Promethelax's play. He just admonished me for fluff posts. His entire first page of his filter is fluff. He comments on my opening case being really bad, regardless of my alignment. Look at his first FOS: Here, he's behaving in a way that contrasts greatly with his previous actions. He no longer is the decisive scum hunter. Now, he's merely confused. Show nested quote +I do not understand Promethelax's play. It has been at times hypocritical, illogical, and bad. I see very little scum motivation for the way he's been playing, assuming he's a competent player. I don't see any town motivation either, so I would prefer to wait to see if he continues to play the way he has. ... I actually feel bad voting for him at this point, but he is my strongest read. This continues on to here, where he votes. Once more, however, he's markedly different from the active townie persona he portrayed earlier. Also important to note is the change in activity. Previously, he was one of the most active contributors. Now, he's slid down the scale quite a bit (content wise, he still has more fluff posts). However, this reasoning isn't nearly as solid, because he might just be more busy. Coupled with the change in behavior, however, I'm led to believe that ... Mordanis has changed because he wants to avoid scum slips. This happens a lot, where a very 'loud' player all of a sudden quiets down or changes suddenly. And it's oftentimes because they want to avoid a scum slip. Therefore, I'm ##FoS Mordanis. On July 28 2012 14:28 aRyuujin wrote:ebwop wow, in between my composing that post and posting it, Golbat has pitched in. I'm now somewhat worried that a bandwagon will form regarding me, as I won't have time to post in the morning, and may be busy probably past the deadline. Therefore, I will now sort of address Golbat's reasons for voting me: He says (referring to me): Show nested quote +This is why I am voting for him: His haiku style makes it easy for him to fill up his posts with a shit load of waffle and some nearly baseless accusations and almost get away with it. I hope in between now and deadline the eye of suspicion takes a long, hard look at him, because his confusing waffle is nothing short of a full-on impediment to real discussion.
Note that I've stopped posting in haikus, so that shouldn't be a reason to vote me anymore. More seriously, this is one of the reasons I stopped posting in haikus- I was having trouble conveying my points clearly. Golbat goes on to say, Show nested quote +Here he says that he is either scum or "really bad town" what is the point of that? And he also casts suspicion on MrMedic for having a really confusing post where he doesn't say anything important (essentially what he is doing, but instead of saying a whole lot of nothing, he does it in haiku form). I don't think MrMedic is mafia, I just think he's having a hard time understanding how to contribute useful ideas. Throwing mafia suspicion on someone who I really think is just unsure of what to do is pretty scummy in my opinion. Basically, he decides to defend mrmedic randomly, despite even saying he's basically a lurker. (Note that goodkarma's primary reason for why i'm scum is that I'm a lurker). I'm not really sure why he believes this part of the post shows that I'm scum. Next, our good friend the pokemon says, Show nested quote +"Here you recap my mistakes without saying anything new about it. The only new content you bring to the table is that you're putting you FoS on me for being flip-floppy. Your reasoning is really weak. For example, what do you mean by this?+ Show Spoiler + How can you accuse me of being scum because of flip flopping, and then say "I plan to vote you but that could easily change depending on the thread"? That's an inconsistency if I've ever seen one.
He says my reasoning is weak, and provides one example, that I say I might not vote for him. I FoS'd him, but I'm not gonna vote that early, no intelligent player would. Later on, he does the same exact thing that he says is so bad, Show nested quote + "I would also consider voting for Shady Sands, depending on the consensus of the town for these reasons ...Right now these two seem to me to be the most scummy. Of course, if someone else decides to act scummy as all get out, i'd be happy to vote for them as well . Noting that your vote is not set in stone is NOT a reliable scum tell. Finally, he agrees with me. w00t. Really, the whole case on me seems kind of silly. Because earlier, when people did not provide their posting schedule, it annoyed some guys, I'll reinforce the fact that I will 90% not even look at the thread before 5-6 my time, 1-2 hours after the adjusted schedule tomorrow. (Super busy day) glhf town On July 28 2012 14:02 aRyuujin wrote:Last post for the night @Keir: yeah, I'll stop haikus lol @goodkarma: You're still the only one who believes I'm scum, and you're definitely entitled to your opinion. However, it seems like you made up your mind that I'm scum before you found any legit evidence, just to show that you contribute, and are just cherry picking random junk to back you up. You say, Show nested quote +"One final point I'd like to mention is this makes yet another person that's come at me after voting for aRyuujin." However, darthpunk isn't coming after you, he's pointing out that you're not contributing. When you say It seems as if you're accusing Keirathi and DP as Mafia as well. (they're bailing me out?) Now, let's think about this for a minute. If you lynched me, and I flipped red, the obvious step would be to lynch them. What kind of real mafia would defend scum with such little lynch threat? Though you say that If you lynched me, and I flipped green, then town is no better off than before. This whole tangent does NOT show that Darthpunk or Keir are red OR green, and any reasoning you try to do based on my green flip (assuming there's nothing insane posted) is pretty much WIFOM. @Darthpunk: I'm hesitant to take suspicion off of golbat, mainly because claiming inexperience is a HUGE scum trait. He has spent a tremendous amount of time doing 2 things: a)Changing his mind b)talking about his noobiness Those are two big scum tells because the first makes it look like he contributes without actually contributing (i tried to mention it earlier, but haikus are difficult to convey thoughts through), and the second helps play away scum tells. (Oh, that (referencing scum moves) doesn't help? I thought it did... etc.) @Mordanis: I probably jumped on your Shady bandwagon too soon. If someone lies at this point, though, and we can prove it, I definitely believe they are target number 1. I doubt I'll be posting in time again for the deadline, therefore it's important that I vote here: I'm voting Golbat because of the 2 reasons I mention previously: He spends most of his time changing his mind/talking about how noob he is. ##vote Golbat
Ever since the Golbat lynch aRyu has only made one real post of content. Of course, he was lurky on D1 too, so lurking D2 doesn't tell us much. However, this is exactly how Zorkmid played. Overall, though, I can't mark him for a lynch yet. And with JingleHell in the bag, there's no real hurry to.
Moving on to Alan133. He's written a lot (over 10 long posts), so I'm not going to spoiler and copy/paste all of it. Here's the filter if anyone's interested. The general vibe I get is that he isn't scum, but rather someone who prefers to build up clues rather than point fingers quickly at someone, which is something that I think this town needs a little bit more of (especially after two mislynches.) Also, he at least is digging up a lot of clues. Even if he's being slightly WIFOM-y, he's still more valuable than aRyu, and a much less scummy read than JingleHell.
aRyuujin leans red. Alan133 leans green.
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EBWOP: I just realized my first sentence there didn't make sense.
I think both are scummy, but still within the "reasonable doubt" category. Can't call for a lynch on them yet.
This should read:
I think aRyuu is scummy, but still within the "reasonable doubt" category. Can't call for a lynch on him yet. Leaning town on Alan133.
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On August 04 2012 07:09 JingleHell wrote:
If you think that statement is suspicious, I can't help you much. It's merely conventional wisdom. If scum is doing strong overall, having the entire scumteam piled up to try and save someone is a bad idea.
Actually, it is a good idea if the scum can force a no-lynch and town is being WIFOM-y. The latter point, unfortunately, is true. With the former point, I think the Mordanis hit squad was pretty close to forcing a no-lynch at one point, and you yourself even tried to vote for two fairly weak leads (GK and Mordanis) to "counter" the votes of players you thought scummy.
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On August 03 2012 23:04 DarthPunk wrote:@Jingle @Ange777 Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 22:19 Ange777 wrote:
@DarthPunk: You said you will re-read my case on Jingle? What's your opinion? Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 06:01 Ange777 wrote:
But only a couple of hours later (to be precise directly after I had posted my case against Zork) you had miraculously not only finished reading the thread, no you also had a very strong conviction that I am scummy. Based on arguments you yet have to show me. And while you have been tunneling me you have totally ignored my case on Zork based on his scumslip and the following reactions.
Would you please give me a town motivation for ignoring the case on Zork? Oh, and please keep in mind, attacking me doesn't qualify as a defense! So this is just wrong. Jingle started airing suspicions against you well before you started going after zork. In no way is the jingle situation between you and him relevant to the zork case. I don't know why you would draw that connection at all. If you had read the last game you will see that jingle caught scum by Identifying and avoiding a similar situation so it is understandable that he would be on the look out for a repeat of that. Your response to him was OMGUS and WIFOM. I can understand why he finds you suspicious, particularly when you immediately become super aggressive towards him when he posts a case on you. I don't really think you have a case on him to be honest. I initially had a small town read on you but after actually reading through the discussion between yourself and jingle I am starting to worry about you. Your reaction to jingle's pressure was an incredibly disproportionate response, and trying to draw a connection to a case you posted hours after jingle had first cast suspicion on you is very suspicious to me. I don't see any connections whatsoever between Jingles pressure on you and your case on zork. I have no idea why you would try and draw a connection that wasn't there. It seems to be OMGUS. but I don't like the fact that several aspects of your case (Jingle connection, MrMedic post) seem to have fallen apart on closer inspection and the fact that many of the other points could just be bad town play, makes me even more wary of following your lynch on Zork. It seems like it is just an attempt to make an easy mislynch on a lurky bad town player. [/b]
Okay, to be precise Jingle started so voice his suspicions against me directly after Shady claimed mason. But he seemed to be really strongly convinced that I am scum after I made the case on Zork as Jingle then voted me. That's what I meant for the timing.
I think I have explained why Jingle's case was really ridiciulous more than enough. If you still haven't understood why I am happy to refer you to someone else's explanation:
On August 03 2012 23:35 alan133 wrote:
@JingleHell+ Show Spoiler +What the hell? What's up with that most painfully narrow tunnel I have ever seen? Why do you make me regret saying I adore your play? How does: - suggesting you to post more reads because you are new and might open more perspective to town
- proceed to post another case on people HE ALREADY HAVE HIS FOS ON
- OH WAIT! HIS CASE HAS THE SAME AS MY TARGET!!! I DON'T GET IT!!!
Why do he needs to explain a townie motive? How do you explain one? What motive could he have, at all. How about, give me a townie motive for tunnelling and voting on such a ridiculous case? I don't see a townie motive. Mind explaining yourself? I suggest you drop your case on Ange, and votes one of the candidates here instead, as it is very possible that there is a SCUM in here. + Show Spoiler +Oh wait I need to explain a townie motivation. How about REDUCING THE RISK OF GETTING A NO LYNCH?. In all seriousness, mind posting something that is other than: + Show Spoiler +Target's latest defence against No! You did not explain a town motive! I vote you ##v0t3 example1over a thousand times?
I admit my responses might have gotten a tiny little bit bitchy in the end but that was due to the fact that I did answer every single question from Jingle and yet he always claimed that he could not see a defense or a town motivation. And I don't believe my replys were disproportionate as every question Jingle asked could have been answered by looking at previous posts I made.
Initially Jingle got my suspicions because of the timing he started to cast suspicion on me but I can promise you that I am not pushing for his lynch only based on the connection to Zork but for the worst case I have ever seen which is clear scum motivation.
By the way you state that my discussion with Jingle made you think I am scummy. Your reasoning please! And don't tell me it's because of the tone of my answers because that was totally appropriate for such a nonsense case.
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Just woke up, good job getting scum!
@Jingle
Why did I not vote for Zork
Because Mordanis has not answered my case against him, and I don't think it is entirely OMGUS and has some valid point in it. Disagree if you want, but at that moment I think Mordanis is than Zork.
On August 04 2012 07:41 JingleHell wrote:
Also, look through Zorkmid's filter. If you'll notice, there's one person who swapped even later than I did, who even I suspect, who Zorkmid NEVER seemed to be interested in, despite this player being in the game the whole time. That's Alan.
Zork was never really interested in anyone except for maybe GoodKarma, if I was not wrong?
Zork's "breadcrumb". Judging from the content of the breadcrumb and the location of the post he quoted for the breadcrumb, it is obvious to me this is a scum trying to take down a blue with him.
Alan starts by wanting to discuss tons of policy. Link
If you noticed that was my first post, and it was fairly early in the game with little scum hunting going on.
Huge WIFOM, no commitment. Link
I said him starting the scum hunting is a huge townie trait for him, suggest it could be WIFOMed into saying it has scum motivation, but I did not use them in my argument.
Wishy Washy on Golbat, creates distance from a mislynch. Link
I defended Golbat and push for Shady lynch. I believe Shady is scum while Golbat is playing badly as a newbie town, so I am pushing for a Shady lynch. The "creating distance" is another fantasy of yours.
Defends Zork lightly. Link
I thought Zork's angry reaction was a town trait. I made my stance on him based on that.
Kisses up a little, and references a game where out of several cases made, I only had a 50% scum lynch record. Link
I was following that game because I missed it, and my impression was you caught the first scum. Scum was in a fairly strong position right now and I was hoping you to tip the balance.
I don't think this is entirely OMGUS. My case on him was not based on my own speculation or fantasies. It is based on reading his filter in general, and the small things that I picked up along the way.
How about stating a townie motivation for:
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On August 04 2012 17:15 alan133 wrote:Just woke up, good job getting scum! @JingleWhy did I not vote for ZorkBecause Mordanis has not answered my case against him, and I don't think it is entirely OMGUS and has some valid point in it. Disagree if you want, but at that moment I think Mordanis is than Zork. + Show Spoiler [Alan133] +On August 04 2012 07:41 JingleHell wrote:
Also, look through Zorkmid's filter. If you'll notice, there's one person who swapped even later than I did, who even I suspect, who Zorkmid NEVER seemed to be interested in, despite this player being in the game the whole time. That's Alan. Zork was never really interested in anyone except for maybe GoodKarma, if I was not wrong? Zork's "breadcrumb". Judging from the content of the breadcrumb and the location of the post he quoted for the breadcrumb, it is obvious to me this is a scum trying to take down a blue with him. Alan starts by wanting to discuss tons of policy. LinkIf you noticed that was my first post, and it was fairly early in the game with little scum hunting going on. Huge WIFOM, no commitment. LinkI said him starting the scum hunting is a huge townie trait for him, suggest it could be WIFOMed into saying it has scum motivation, but I did not use them in my argument. Wishy Washy on Golbat, creates distance from a mislynch. LinkI defended Golbat and push for Shady lynch. I believe Shady is scum while Golbat is playing badly as a newbie town, so I am pushing for a Shady lynch. The "creating distance" is another fantasy of yours. Defends Zork lightly. LinkI thought Zork's angry reaction was a town trait. I made my stance on him based on that. Kisses up a little, and references a game where out of several cases made, I only had a 50% scum lynch record. LinkI was following that game because I missed it, and my impression was you caught the first scum. Scum was in a fairly strong position right now and I was hoping you to tip the balance. I don't think this is entirely OMGUS. My case on him was not based on my own speculation or fantasies. It is based on reading his filter in general, and the small things that I picked up along the way. How about stating a townie motivation for:
1) Good reads on JingleHell. I missed the attempts to save Zork, although in Jingle's defense some people did it too. I'd look at MrMedic's posts/lurky play from D1 as well. Would like to Jingle try and defend that.
2) Why is JingleHell accusing you? His post makes no overall sense. All he did is list a bunch of your old posts with 3 word indicators of scummy play. The thing is, he could draw that sort of conclusion about anyone--including Ange, his previous target (and someone who is pretty much confirmed town at this point.) He gives no holistic reasoning as to why he dropped Ange, either.
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EPT
