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On August 21 2012 09:20 nkr wrote:
I wonder what these people would do when facing a random player in tournaments? Moan and bitch or adapt?
The deeper you get into a tournament the less likely you're going to see a random player. This is where the oft-touted disadvantage of not focusing on one skillset starts to become a serious problem.
However, everyone has to start somewhere. A lot of people start practicing on the ladder. Practice against R players on the ladder turns out to be comparatively less worthwhile no matter what skill level you're at.
There's actually a whole host of other problems that could hypothetically turn up if R players actually made it into tournies. Like if the game drops after a few seconds: do they have to play the same race? Do they get to start as R again? If they can start as R again, how do we know they aren't dropping on purpose to force their way into playing the race they'd actually prefer to play right at that moment?
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
The opponent doesn't know, he assumes. And you imply that this is so problematic that random as an entire race must be nerfed to the point theres no reason to even play it bar portraits. Why can't you understand that this is utterly irrelevant at higher skill levels where random is virtually non-existent?
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On August 21 2012 09:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. The opponent doesn't know, he assumes. And you imply that this is so problematic that random as an entire race must be nerfed to the point theres no reason to even play it bar portraits. Why can't you understand that this is utterly irrelevant at higher skill levels where random is virtually non-existent?
It does exist on high levels.
I remember Polt playing vs random on KR ladder (when he was ranked #1 for many weeks), typing chat in how it's bad practice and is upsetting to play against, after getting like 3-4 randoms in a streaming session.
IM-MVP and IM-Happy were both known for playing random on ladder, assumingly for practice reasons.
Personally, when playing vs Random, I try to politely ask if they mind telling me their race, if they don't, simply scout 10/11 supply.
I don't think it's the worst practice ever, but it certainly isn't ideal.
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On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
No. Your random opponents cannot make assumption that you won't be FFEing. Yes likelihood for that is lower, but they cannot assume that (If they assume they are taking a big risk). As a random player you will be facing a full spectrum of openings from your opponents. As you have already read from this thread some dislike playing against randoms and do blind cheeses/all-ins (early pools, proxies, etc) even if some of these strategies are usually not viable against certain races. Some will start with greedy economy builds such as nexus/CC first. Some will start FFE's too. Forge also gives you an opportunity to cannonrush if you see a juicy opportunity. Some do a safe opening and choose their strategy based on scouting information. Some just throw a dice and assume that their random opponent has a certain race or races and base their build on that.
As said: As random player you may be facing almost any opening. You cannot assume that your opponent is not doing a certain build, such as FFE. You have to scout and/or prepare for different possibilities (even illogical ones). And as both aggressive cheese and greedy economy cheese are quite common (not too common thankfully), neglecting scouting (both for proxies and opponents location) easily throws the random player behind if either of these happen. I personally often feel that I play too careful when checking proxies and what my opponents are doing (much more careful than when I pick a race) and lose mining time by doing so. And when I check replays often the opponents just play greedy and 'cut corners' as much as possible.
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I like how some of you guys are talking about random in tournaments as if you'd ever be a contender and win a tournament or something.
Notice that players that actually contend to win tournaments aren't bothered by random players.
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I usually meet nice random players who tell me their race, most of the time if they don't its someone who's going to cheese.
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This thread is great "Random and its place on the ladder" everyone meantions professional tournament results, gg tl.
If someone chooses random and their race isn't shown, then my race shouldn't be shown either, fair?
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On August 21 2012 09:45 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 09:40 rd wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. The opponent doesn't know, he assumes. And you imply that this is so problematic that random as an entire race must be nerfed to the point theres no reason to even play it bar portraits. Why can't you understand that this is utterly irrelevant at higher skill levels where random is virtually non-existent? It does exist on high levels. I remember Polt playing vs random on KR ladder (when he was ranked #1 for many weeks), typing chat in how it's bad practice and is upsetting to play against, after getting like 3-4 randoms in a streaming session. IM-MVP and IM-Happy were both known for playing random on ladder, assumingly for practice reasons. Personally, when playing vs Random, I try to politely ask if they mind telling me their race, if they don't, simply scout 10/11 supply. I don't think it's the worst practice ever, but it certainly isn't ideal.
Virtually non-existent, i.e. very, very rare. Less than 1 in 20 games unless you happen to chain queue the same guy multiple times.
I never thought of players at the top of the ladder on a main race playing random, but I'm fine with it as they're essentially gambling their rating away provided their off-races aren't significantly better than their opponent's, which in a perfect GM world they shouldn't be. Also not sure why there are complaints about practice on the ladder as it's counter-intuitive to it's intended design -- not that it can't be an excellent way to practice.
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Isn't the simplest solution to all the complaints about cheese and randoms just don't leave the game against randoms? Especially since that unless you're in masters, Sc2 won't show a loss on your record and ladder points don't have much meaning. Also, the games mostly for entertainment (and some self benefit if you're trying to improve).... if you don't enjoy or see a benefit of playing against certain people or certain styles or certain races, then don't. Just leave. And go on to the next game.
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On August 21 2012 10:03 nicknack wrote:
This thread is great "Random and its place on the ladder" everyone meantions professional tournament results, gg tl.
If someone chooses random and their race isn't shown, then my race shouldn't be shown either, fair?
People are talking about tournament results because people keep saying that Random has an unfair advantage.
If playing Random was actually advantageous for the Random player, people would have already used that advantage in tournaments. The fact is, Random is actually disadvantageous because of the difficulty involved with playing all 3 races.
Long story short. Random doesnt give the Random player a real advantage. What it does is force an earlier scout and a non-gimmicky safer build from the opponent.
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On August 21 2012 06:05 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's a selection that benefits you with a particular advantage. If random is an actual advantage then play it yourself. If you don't want to play random , that's you choice don't bitch that other people made the choice to play it. You are given an equal as advantage to take advantage of this scenario. You must accept that different build orders are required as opposed to simply whining you can't do the only one opening you've practiced per matchup. Some of us don't have time to spend on learning all matchups and like being in the league we're in so that's not a solution. Your "tough love" standpoint doesn't really address the OP's complaint either; the main point as I read it was that Protoss gets shafted more so by PvR than any other race because although Terran is always going to place a barracks and Zerg is always going to place a spawning pool, P has a bidirectional choice when it comes to their first building and both are played differently and come with their own pros and cons, the pros of one keeping you on more equal footing vs a particular race than the other option. If you see what I'm getting at you might say learn a gate-expand for PvZ, but thats total bs becuase I, along with other P players, believe that the best option in PvZ is the FFE not the gate-expand but that is not a safe option by any means in PvR.
What you said isn't relevant. "not having time to spend on learning all the matchups" doesn't even make sense unless you're a progamer. League you're in? I don't even understand your point.
Protoss gets shafted more is not an issue either. It just means when Protoss has to face a random player, it must adapt to a different style of play than if it were playing vs Terran, Protoss, or Zerg.
What you "believe" is the best answer is the only relevant answer, but it's still a stupid one. So vs random, you're less likely to pick the optimal build order. Since when in the world is complaining you didn't pick the most optimal build order even a remotely valid argument?
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On August 21 2012 09:36 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 09:20 nkr wrote:
I wonder what these people would do when facing a random player in tournaments? Moan and bitch or adapt? The deeper you get into a tournament the less likely you're going to see a random player. This is where the oft-touted disadvantage of not focusing on one skillset starts to become a serious problem. However, everyone has to start somewhere. A lot of people start practicing on the ladder. Practice against R players on the ladder turns out to be comparatively less worthwhile no matter what skill level you're at. There's actually a whole host of other problems that could hypothetically turn up if R players actually made it into tournies. Like if the game drops after a few seconds: do they have to play the same race? Do they get to start as R again? If they can start as R again, how do we know they aren't dropping on purpose to force their way into playing the race they'd actually prefer to play right at that moment?
You could argue the same with a lot of maps (eg. Metalopolis when it was played for Zerg) - there are small positional imbalances on many maps that pros know about. It's all about trust. Just like a lot of pros trust that people aren't streamcheating when they play them on playhem daily and stuff.
Also if they're gunning for a certain race, doing this disconnect thing increases their chance from 1/3 to 5/9. Good odds, but not going to win you a tournament there. (I'm presuming they can't do it more than once before it becomes suspicious)
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On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
No they cannot. I play random and I'd say nearly 33% of my Protoss opponents still forge fe. They simply go Nexus before forge.
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
I feel like you just don't have much experience using gate expands or you just have really weak opponents. After practicing some gateway expands and reviewing the replays, it was very clear that the dynamics of the early game has shifted drastically compared to FFE. Gateway expands generally mean that the zergs has to react to you in the early game instead of the mid game. Not the other way around. Zerg can't just do a build that counters all gateway expands because no such build exists. He should be trying to figure out his response to builds as diverse as 4gate nexus cancel, super fast tech such as double stargate or DT expand, or economic 1gate expands. So I don't understand how your random opponents are countering every single one of these builds by only knowing you are gateway expanding.
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Hang on, let me get this right. There are people that complain about playing vs random?
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On August 21 2012 11:04 MrBitter wrote:
Hang on, let me get this right. There are people that complain about playing vs random?
only cause the cube is so much better looking than their own race icons
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On August 21 2012 11:04 MrBitter wrote:
Hang on, let me get this right. There are people that complain about playing vs random?
Hard to believe isn't it?
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On August 21 2012 09:58 nGBeast wrote:
I usually meet nice random players who tell me their race, most of the time if they don't its someone who's going to cheese.
I play random and will always tell someone who asks what race I am at the start but you would be amazed how many think you are lying to them.
I don't know about other players opinions but I play random because I enjoy all 3 races and like the change of pace you get from not knowing which one you will be, so to me some solution like showing your race on the loading screen would be fine. I still get to play as random and you know what race I am.
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GSL level qq.
GM level ego.
Master league theory crafting
Bronze level skill.
Pretty much describes all these threads popping up.
How do u all spend so much time posting and not get better?
really wish tl shows the league like bnet. so we can see how scrubby these qqers are
But then I guess they will resort to levelling seeing how insecure they are about a video game and care so much about their ladder points.
Lol. "need practice" "not real game". If u play lots of random, let's just say u r not winning anything soon.
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8751 Posts
On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
You are so worried about a counter build to gateway opening being discovered and used against you that you won't use it while it remains a viable build? That makes no sense to me. What builds are you doing now and why are you so confident counters will never be discovered against them?
I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter.
I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build.
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