EPTChrono Trigger Mafia - Page 144
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Acrofales
Spain18000 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On November 25 2012 13:31 Acrofales wrote: Additionally, that's quite the epic frame, if it changes rolename as well. Liquid City. Never forget. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18000 Posts
You believe him? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
No. But in Liquid City, framer framed kush when role cop checked him. He returned Mafia Coroner, when he was just a VT. Basically, in a game with role cops, I think its quite common (or at least plausible) for framer to change the role name and faction, because without it then it is kind of worthless. So, I'm just saying your assertion doesn't hold weight, but the evidence is still overwhelming. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On November 25 2012 13:31 Keirathi wrote: Unless you believe that Oats is lying about being Robo, I think that Oats and Dieno should be the two party members from last round that are in this party as well, rather than me or syllo. Oats because he's a Future era character and likely gets bonuses, and Dieno because he is very nearly 'confirmed' town, whereas neither myself nor syllo are. However, I'm not really sure which one should be voted as leader. I wasn't overly confident in either of their picks/reasonings behind them. Well, to me clearly the most obvious townie is Dieno, but I don't really like his decision to choose phagga, I´m pretty null on him and don´t think there is really any reason to deem him town. Oatsmaster´s claim is reasonable, I see no reason to doubt it, but he included chronicle in there. That alone I can kinda understand, but then he says this: On November 25 2012 11:57 Oatsmaster wrote: So this is a binary situation if im not wrong, Either Toadsstern is scum/ Chronicler is scum I dont really see how Toadsstern's role is necessarily town oriented though :/ Which I don´t really follow. Toad is like 99% scum right now (totally called it earlier, btw) and I don´t see how this implicates that Chronicle is town, which is what he said when you questioned him, so I´m assuming that´s an explanation of why he chose chronicle. So that leaves you, which is why I´d rather you be leader. I also think your capability of choosing town is much superior. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
ok. Then do you also agree that chronicler's win-con is town oriented? So therefore, he should have a good hidden number thing. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18000 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18000 Posts
##unvote ##vote Oatsmaster | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On November 25 2012 13:48 Oatsmaster wrote: Z-Boson, do you agree that chronicler isnt scum? ok. Then do you also agree that chronicler's win-con is town oriented? So therefore, he should have a good hidden number thing. I said I 180ed him, but in a sense that I no longer think that his story is as damning as I thought. That´s a long way´s away from finding him town enough to be includable in a party. Same line of thought as with phagga. He´s not necessarily a scum read to me but isn´t someone I would be comfortable putting in a party. On November 25 2012 13:48 Acrofales wrote: I'm assuming it's based on my post where I said there was 0 reason to assume Chronicler is scum bussing Toad over there, which means Chronicler is town. Took me a while to find it, but I assume you mean this post: On November 25 2012 11:19 Acrofales wrote: I don't want to come. Swap me out for Dieno or Syllo... given the new information, I also prefer Chronicler over Clarity. I can see no reason for scum to bus Toad right now. When asked to explain why you didn´t want to be in a party, you said no. I´m guessing this is role-oriented? Can you elaborate on the "scum not bussing toad" theory? | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:26 Djodref wrote: My guess is that we are going to be back at picking a party leader tomorrow. The problem is that I think that the final blow is going to be delivered to Frog tonight so we'll have to find a new "almost confirmed" town player for tomorrow... Why were you so confident I would be dead? I'm beginning to rethink your spot. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On November 25 2012 13:31 Acrofales wrote: Okay, lets entertain the hypnotoad for a little bit, because I'm bored. You are hereby claiming that either TheChronicler and I are both scum and lying, or you were bussed/framed/whatever two nights in a row. I can understand N2, because I was ramping up the heat on you, but N1 as well? Lol. The other thing wrong with your claim is that there were no votes on you D1. At some point Oats voted for you, but at the end of the day there was nobody voting for you... unless you're saying you have a secret doublevoting scumbuddy of course. am I allowed to quote my pm? It says at any point during the day included in the party or get a vote. I asked Greymist about it d1 and he said a single vote on me is enough as long as it's someone elses. I don't need to be in the party and it doesn't have to be like that at the end of the cycle because of the "at any time during the day". Did Chronicle claim to check me n1 or was it n2 as well? I mean if it's n1 there's no point in talking and you'll lynch me either way and I'll just ask you to watch at him after I flip. I highly doubt you're going to stop lynching me even if he says / said n2. I just claimed to get you know, 4 days ahead of time (assuming lynches and events alternate) instead of the moment I flip and have huge chaos. Right now there's not much I can ruin because people will vote for a someone out of the d1-party anyways. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Gonna check hopeless out, from a quick skim of his filter the guy looks hella scummy. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On November 25 2012 14:18 Toadesstern wrote: that is: am I allowed to quote my pm? I'd really rather not | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On November 25 2012 14:16 Dienosore wrote: Why were you so confident I would be dead? I'm beginning to rethink your spot. Oh I just found this! On November 25 2012 10:27 Djodref wrote: @marv I think we can limit ourselves to one party member from the last time. Dieno is the most obvious town in my eyes. I don't know how he is still alive but I would definitively take him in my party. Why does does it surprise you so much that im still alive & kickin?! | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Hopeless1der Allright guys, I'm pretty confident he's scum at this point. There isn't really much to say, but he simply has not scumhunted. The only part of his play where he actually bothers analyzing someone's play, is a defense of sand's lynch. Now, that alone is not scummy by itself. Normally I'd give that a town read - actually, as scum generally don't like sticking their necks out for other scum. However, it goes from not-so-scummy to unbelievably scummy when this post: On November 24 2012 00:49 Hopeless1der wrote: I've read through sand's filter and I'm not content to lynch him today. I would like to see him scumhunt, but he called half the party early in the day 'When the time comes' would most likely have been when he was close to being elected leader. However, his activity dropped and we shifted to syllo. On this, I feel syllo is best suited to legitimately make the case against sandroba today, but given that we wanted a town-party, I don't find his reluctance to give reads that scummy. I don't see big mafia motive behind sand's actions thus far. His proposed party is consistent: kush ended up dying and we didn't hear much more from sand on the topic, but the fact remains, he picked 2 members of the party quite early. This was the only post that jumped out at me as completely useless filler reading through his filter. It doesn't really do anything to further a read, and doesn't really think through the likelyhood of kush dying. It'll stick in the back of my mind, but I don't want to lynch over 1 trivial post and a lack of activity. I need to go find someone I do want to lynch. Is the ONLY attempt of analyzing someone's play he makes in the entire game. Also, note the bolded part, at the end of the post. He finds that he feels to find a lynch choice. He spends an entire post answering and fluffing about (also needlessly taking the chance to defend sand): On November 24 2012 01:08 Hopeless1der wrote: It doesn't, but it is definitely not scummy to me. He called out what I presume are two townies (event success) very early. That supposed ability is why he was a candidate in the first place, and he has lived up to that expectation in my eyes. Granted, he gave little in the way of reasoning, and it would be immensely easy to do so as mafia when you know which 'newbies' are town (or at least not mafia), but its still a point in his favor that his most recently proposed party (die/oats/kush) would likely have succeeded as well. (Man, Cyrus and Glenn in the same party? IMBA!) A little bit, but I don't think you're wrong to insist we make a goddamn read for ourselves. Your case on sand shows that he's not trying to win the election. His activity could be to blame for that. -> He doesn't give strong or informed reads. Withholding reasons for a townread to me is not scummy until those same townreads become scumreads. If he continues to read a player as town, I'm fine with that. If they suddenly change to scum, only then do I feel I deserve to know his entire thought process. As a candidate for party leader, I can see why people would want his reads to be as transparent as possible, but I believe that winning the events is more important and I don't consider his 'not trying' to be scummy. But when it comes to actual scumhunting, here is what he comes up with: On November 24 2012 06:43 Hopeless1der wrote: you mean you'd lynch for reasons OTHER than being scum? ##Vote: TheChronicler p.s. I've been skimming the thread, Chronicler is very scummy looking, I'll be back in 5ish hours to, you know, actually play the game instead of sitting by the sidelines. Let us take a look at some of his previous games, where he was town. Here is day one of TLVII (yes, I'll cite this again) Day one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=21#402 From mario. He has posts where there is a discernable amount of interest in finding scum: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#438 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=43#841 And even: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=89#1765 Now, I learned my lesson from Mario - don't go too heavy in this regard when dealing with hopeless. However, my meta-related case on him on mario came much earlier than here. ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=50#986 ). This was a day one case, in which he had not contributed in any regard. Right now, we are in day 3, and yet he still manages to not have made a single case or a single dignified attempt at scumhunting. Even in mario, a game where he was lurky as all hell, he had shown signs and attempts at scumhunting, something which has not yet occured this game. In this game, there is not a single sign of actual interest in finding scum. He spends half his time fluffing, and half his time speculating on setup and roles and what not. Onwards There is, also a bonus argument this game. Let's observe how inconsistent as all hell he's being in regards to his vote on sand, day one. One of his first posts: On November 21 2012 13:36 Hopeless1der wrote: Greetings all. You'll notice that we're currently in 600 AD Guardia. You're also playing a themed game hosted by none other than Greymist. Please keep that in mind. (Hi Mementoss, you're cool too). Basic vote mechanics for this game seem to boil down to -identify town -vote town to lead the party -Profit -Kill Mafia/Lavos -More Profit What are people's thoughts on claiming that their character belongs to the 600 AD era and selecting the leader based on that. (YOU ONLY CLAIM "600 AD") Possibly selecting the entire party from within the era, assuming enough of a pool emerges. I linked Chronopedia above in case anyone feels the need to check it out. ~17ish native characters from 600 AD. I think our hidden numbers are influenced by the current era, and events can have varying degrees of success or failure depending on which specific players (not just town or scum) are in the party. Come play the setup speculation game with me please! He demonstrates here, bolded above, that the interest in vote mechanics this game lies down to:
Now, I have a strong tendency to misinterpret, but here it is extra clear that he finds it necessary for town to win the party. He even makes it clearer: On November 21 2012 13:46 Hopeless1der wrote: Choose town. Win events. Kill Lavos. This has already been covered. I don't have any strong townreads yet. So in the meantime, I want to plant some ideas about how the setup works because you can bet your ass its going to matter. He then votes sandroba, without any form of reasoning: My vote is probably going to sandroba. Second hand knowledge from Looney mafia suggests that he'll have everyone in the game crapping their pants by this time tomorrow. When jumped on, he says this: On November 22 2012 00:27 Hopeless1der wrote: Oh, I don't have a strong townread on him, but I believe him to be a strong town player that most people believe is easy to distinguish his town play from his scum play. Which is in direct contradiction to his stated views. Here's what I think happened: Scum Hopeless went ahead and posted his thoughts on the thread. However, on the QT, mafia decided that their best shot was to elect sandroba. Hopeless quickly voted, without being clear on his intents and purposes, and had to justify himself later. Funnily enough, he only maintains this line of thought for a moment, because later on in the game, look at what he has to say regarding the town leader: On November 22 2012 03:13 Hopeless1der wrote: If they're strong, motivated town players who can in turn read others correctly as town, I want them as party leader. Activity isn't the only indicator, and getting others to talk shouldn't require you to be leader. Thus being completely inconsistent on his own views. This makes much more sense than him actually changing his mind over time about what the hell it is that he finds important for his leader to be elected. He then goes full derp with his vote. First says that, out of nowhere, he wants to move his vote to syllo (which was becoming a trend at the time): On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote: I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba ##Vote: syllogism Not answering Hapa's point regarding syllo at all, just saying he "disagrees" with it. Then, BAM: On November 23 2012 07:53 Hopeless1der wrote: ##Unvote: Syllogism ##Vote: Hopeless1der Things and such. Again, without saying anything. I view that he is trying to fit in his vote, without looking too suspicious. In nowhere does he retract his views on sand, in nowhere does he justify where he's putting his vote. He just follows suit with the thread and what he thinks will make him look less suspicious. tl;dr It is of my opinion that hopeless is playing the "lazy scum game", where he just goes around talking with people without ever really trying to find scum. If this meta is not enough, he demonstrates mafia mentality in his actions. I'm pretty convinced he is filthy, filthy scum. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On November 25 2012 14:16 Dienosore wrote: Why were you so confident I would be dead? I'm beginning to rethink your spot. @dieno Given that this game choice mechanics are mainly going to be focused on the election of a party leader and on the composition of the party members, I'll say that the biggest asset we have as town is Oats and you right now. You have both claimed and your play scream out loud that you are town newbies. This quality is easy to recognize and it is reinforced by the fact that you have already helped one event to succeed. Given your roles, I bet that your hidden factor is quite reasonable in any era on top of that. Being the biggest asset of town, you are also a great threat for the mafia. So I expected you to be killed, because you were the only one to have claimed at that time. @everyone I don't think that Oats or Dieno should be party leaders. As much as I appreciate their enthustiasm and the fact that they are easily recognizqble town players, I don't trust their judent. I would like to remind you that syllo received a gift the first cycle because his party was successful. I would prefer experienced players to receive such gifts. Moreover, I think that Oats and Dieno are both the closest to be confirmed town players. That make them big targets for the mafia. That's another reason why they should not receive these gifts which could be helpful to fight Lavos. | ||
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