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Chrono Trigger Mafia - Page 384

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phagga
Profile Joined February 2012
Switzerland2194 Posts
December 14 2012 01:43 GMT
#7661
On December 14 2012 10:29 Risen wrote:
Lol. Yes, that's entirely likely (sarcasm). At least in my example I gave scum benefit of the doubt in a lot of things, but was realistic and hey maybe scum was that good. You just gave scum a win whenever possible and assumed horrible town play.


This game town got a win whenever possible (well almost) and scum played horrible.

In my example I gave scum a benefit, but didn't go overboard. In yours you just said fuck it scum gets everything they could dream of. I should have been more clear. In what way does this game play out where scum doesn't have to massively outplay town to win? How does anyone on the scum team know who the healers are, who the roleblockers are, who the trackers are? How does scum even know these roles exist? Why does any townie nameclaim? Why don't the townies being lynched nameclaim and save themselves since scum can't counterclaim without trading themselves 1 for 1? Sure you'll get the fakeclaims Grey has set up for scum in return, but no one is going to counterclaim you if you're a main character. How do you counterclaim someone like Chrono, Marle, Lucca, Frog, or Robo? What do we have to punish those name claims? 250 damage a night? Sweet.

10 cycles go by and scum has managed to get a townie killed or lynched every cycle. Is that really plausible? Even the hosts have said they didn't want people dying from KP until cycle 3 or 4, but we'll say it happened that way because of town lynching themselves. I think I'm being generous to scum when I say only 8 members of town are alive at the end and that includes Crono because once he claims there's no way he's dying and even if he does he can be resurrected. Only 5 scum members live to Lavos spawn in my new scenario. Only losing 2 scum all the way until the end of the game out of 7 members? Must be an auto-win. Just kidding.


Town has 17 members. You managed to kill 6, 5 nightkills (although one was by town) and one misslynch. Imagine your fake-check works out as planed and town misslynches two times more. Imagine you coordinate night attacks a bit better and you get 7 nightkills, including a healer. Now town is already down to 7 members, Scum has 1 or 2 more players alive at the end, and that is not even considering getting someone on a successfull party for even more chaos in town.

Seriously, a decent playing scum team would have been able to force 1 to 2 misslynches more, and might have gotten 2 townkills more. Sure, with 7 players vs 4 scum it still would have been hard, but saying that you are "generous to scum when I say only 8 members of town are alive" is a joke.

"A person who does not concern himself with politics has already made the political choice he was so anxious to spare himself: he is serving the ruling party." - Max Frisch
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18449 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-14 03:54:52
December 14 2012 03:54 GMT
#7662
I was writing a long response about how I wasn't assuming the stars aligned when I decided you were just being stupid with confirmation bias. All I was assuming is that scum had a start similar to town's. Town thought they had 4 confirmed townies and they were right. Having 1 scum in there would have been disastrous and just as how town coasted to an easy victory on the back of 4 confirmed townies, scum could have coasted to victory on the back of a D1 "confirmed townie".

Now I'm not sure that makes the game balanced. It seems hard for either team to make a comeback if they get off to a bad start based on (in hindsight) terrible assumptions. Maybe more information was required to make the whole "confirmed" status from being in a successful party less sure. However, I don't know enough about balancing games, and have had too much to drink to comment on that stuff. However, I do strongly feel that scum could have won the game if they had shown more than 0.0 initiative since the start of D1.
goodkarma
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1067 Posts
December 14 2012 05:58 GMT
#7663
Yeah in retrospect town made some very liberal (and bad) assumptions about the party mechanic. It could have bit back really hard, and catapulted scum to victory had scum worked a little harder.

But the OP clearly states that this game isn't necessarily perfectly balanced given the highly themed nature. Honestly, everyone should have known what they were getting into, and even if it was slightly town-favored people should be okay with that.


A Little Feedback:

Coolest Scum Ability:

I actually really like the frame bus ability Sandroba had.

Coolest Town Ability:
Janus the Cat's protection ability, although imho it felt pretty weird he had so much HP. I mean he's a cat. How did he get more HP than Fiona or King Guardia? Something like 200-300HP would have been more appropriate IMHO, especially considering how strong the ability was as shown with Dieno not dying for so long.

About the Lavos Fight:
In retrospect, I would agree with the sentiment that Lavos could have hit a little harder. Or maybe have a smaller-damage large-scale AOE damage attack like he did AND a 2-3 target heavy-hitting attack (like 300 damage), with alternation between the two. It did feel a bit harsh for scumteam to have Lavos die via a kill mechanic based largely on how many town were alive. I would also think that having scum passively count against the town KP (at a rate of 75x, where x is number of alive scum, for example) also makes sense and would help make bringing him in early more advantageous for scumteam. Further, buffing his damage some for each alive scum member would have been sensible. Just a few thoughts on what was otherwise a very well-thought out boss fight.

A brief Q.Q about "hidden conditions":
I understand the whole point of hidden conditions is you don't know about them, but still I couldn't help but feel that some kind of heads-up as simple as a "You have a secret power-up. Go forth and find it." would have been nice. The hidden condition for my particular powerup was abstract enough there was a good chance I still wouldn't have gotten it, but not knowing I even had one to look for meant I took for granted that I didn't have one. And trying to figure out the conditions to unlock it would have added something fun to strive for in the game.


I will probably make some kind of post about my thoughts on my play and a few others' this game, but I'm going to let it wait a few days. Until then, I hope this feedback is helpful in the hosts' future endevours. (And a special thank you also to Mementoss for co-hosting this. I had absolutely no idea that co-hosting was so much work.)
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
December 14 2012 09:54 GMT
#7664
They were good assumptions based on how this kind of setups are usually balanced. It's not the only way to balance, but it makes sense from design perspective. Just because the assumption turned out to be wrong in this specific case, it doesn't mean it was a bad one.
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