• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:35
CET 22:35
KST 06:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
[D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win
Tourneys
SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles Mutation # 548 Shining Bright
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Rollback Netcode in Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ sOs joins Best's team, Newcatsle University SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement!
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Deus Ex 3!?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck? Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8692 users

Chrono Trigger Mafia - Page 384

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 382 383 384
phagga
Profile Joined February 2012
Switzerland2194 Posts
December 14 2012 01:43 GMT
#7661
On December 14 2012 10:29 Risen wrote:
Lol. Yes, that's entirely likely (sarcasm). At least in my example I gave scum benefit of the doubt in a lot of things, but was realistic and hey maybe scum was that good. You just gave scum a win whenever possible and assumed horrible town play.


This game town got a win whenever possible (well almost) and scum played horrible.

In my example I gave scum a benefit, but didn't go overboard. In yours you just said fuck it scum gets everything they could dream of. I should have been more clear. In what way does this game play out where scum doesn't have to massively outplay town to win? How does anyone on the scum team know who the healers are, who the roleblockers are, who the trackers are? How does scum even know these roles exist? Why does any townie nameclaim? Why don't the townies being lynched nameclaim and save themselves since scum can't counterclaim without trading themselves 1 for 1? Sure you'll get the fakeclaims Grey has set up for scum in return, but no one is going to counterclaim you if you're a main character. How do you counterclaim someone like Chrono, Marle, Lucca, Frog, or Robo? What do we have to punish those name claims? 250 damage a night? Sweet.

10 cycles go by and scum has managed to get a townie killed or lynched every cycle. Is that really plausible? Even the hosts have said they didn't want people dying from KP until cycle 3 or 4, but we'll say it happened that way because of town lynching themselves. I think I'm being generous to scum when I say only 8 members of town are alive at the end and that includes Crono because once he claims there's no way he's dying and even if he does he can be resurrected. Only 5 scum members live to Lavos spawn in my new scenario. Only losing 2 scum all the way until the end of the game out of 7 members? Must be an auto-win. Just kidding.


Town has 17 members. You managed to kill 6, 5 nightkills (although one was by town) and one misslynch. Imagine your fake-check works out as planed and town misslynches two times more. Imagine you coordinate night attacks a bit better and you get 7 nightkills, including a healer. Now town is already down to 7 members, Scum has 1 or 2 more players alive at the end, and that is not even considering getting someone on a successfull party for even more chaos in town.

Seriously, a decent playing scum team would have been able to force 1 to 2 misslynches more, and might have gotten 2 townkills more. Sure, with 7 players vs 4 scum it still would have been hard, but saying that you are "generous to scum when I say only 8 members of town are alive" is a joke.

"A person who does not concern himself with politics has already made the political choice he was so anxious to spare himself: he is serving the ruling party." - Max Frisch
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18488 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-14 03:54:52
December 14 2012 03:54 GMT
#7662
I was writing a long response about how I wasn't assuming the stars aligned when I decided you were just being stupid with confirmation bias. All I was assuming is that scum had a start similar to town's. Town thought they had 4 confirmed townies and they were right. Having 1 scum in there would have been disastrous and just as how town coasted to an easy victory on the back of 4 confirmed townies, scum could have coasted to victory on the back of a D1 "confirmed townie".

Now I'm not sure that makes the game balanced. It seems hard for either team to make a comeback if they get off to a bad start based on (in hindsight) terrible assumptions. Maybe more information was required to make the whole "confirmed" status from being in a successful party less sure. However, I don't know enough about balancing games, and have had too much to drink to comment on that stuff. However, I do strongly feel that scum could have won the game if they had shown more than 0.0 initiative since the start of D1.
goodkarma
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1067 Posts
December 14 2012 05:58 GMT
#7663
Yeah in retrospect town made some very liberal (and bad) assumptions about the party mechanic. It could have bit back really hard, and catapulted scum to victory had scum worked a little harder.

But the OP clearly states that this game isn't necessarily perfectly balanced given the highly themed nature. Honestly, everyone should have known what they were getting into, and even if it was slightly town-favored people should be okay with that.


A Little Feedback:

Coolest Scum Ability:

I actually really like the frame bus ability Sandroba had.

Coolest Town Ability:
Janus the Cat's protection ability, although imho it felt pretty weird he had so much HP. I mean he's a cat. How did he get more HP than Fiona or King Guardia? Something like 200-300HP would have been more appropriate IMHO, especially considering how strong the ability was as shown with Dieno not dying for so long.

About the Lavos Fight:
In retrospect, I would agree with the sentiment that Lavos could have hit a little harder. Or maybe have a smaller-damage large-scale AOE damage attack like he did AND a 2-3 target heavy-hitting attack (like 300 damage), with alternation between the two. It did feel a bit harsh for scumteam to have Lavos die via a kill mechanic based largely on how many town were alive. I would also think that having scum passively count against the town KP (at a rate of 75x, where x is number of alive scum, for example) also makes sense and would help make bringing him in early more advantageous for scumteam. Further, buffing his damage some for each alive scum member would have been sensible. Just a few thoughts on what was otherwise a very well-thought out boss fight.

A brief Q.Q about "hidden conditions":
I understand the whole point of hidden conditions is you don't know about them, but still I couldn't help but feel that some kind of heads-up as simple as a "You have a secret power-up. Go forth and find it." would have been nice. The hidden condition for my particular powerup was abstract enough there was a good chance I still wouldn't have gotten it, but not knowing I even had one to look for meant I took for granted that I didn't have one. And trying to figure out the conditions to unlock it would have added something fun to strive for in the game.


I will probably make some kind of post about my thoughts on my play and a few others' this game, but I'm going to let it wait a few days. Until then, I hope this feedback is helpful in the hosts' future endevours. (And a special thank you also to Mementoss for co-hosting this. I had absolutely no idea that co-hosting was so much work.)
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
December 14 2012 09:54 GMT
#7664
They were good assumptions based on how this kind of setups are usually balanced. It's not the only way to balance, but it makes sense from design perspective. Just because the assumption turned out to be wrong in this specific case, it doesn't mean it was a bad one.
Prev 1 382 383 384
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
02:00
FSL season 12 opener: HM vs ST
Liquipedia
AI Arena Tournament
02:00
RO4
IntoTheTV X SOOP
20:00
Premier - Quarterfinals
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 27
CosmosSc2 22
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 317
Hyun 61
Terrorterran 13
Dota 2
420jenkins450
syndereN101
League of Legends
Doublelift50
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu530
Other Games
tarik_tv5642
summit1g5239
Grubby2308
B2W.Neo1879
FrodaN931
PiGStarcraft283
Pyrionflax186
XaKoH 150
NeuroSwarm79
Mew2King36
ViBE32
Railgan29
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick802
BasetradeTV142
Counter-Strike
PGL105
StarCraft 2
angryscii 27
EmSc Tv 27
EmSc2Tv 27
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 115
• musti20045 75
• Adnapsc2 8
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix8
• Pr0nogo 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis2360
• Jankos2230
Other Games
• imaqtpie992
• WagamamaTV367
• Shiphtur318
• tFFMrPink 7
Upcoming Events
IntoTheTV X SOOP
13h 26m
IPSL
19h 26m
Azhi_Dahaki vs ggnore13
Double vs WIZARD
Replay Cast
1d 1h
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
IPSL
6 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-05
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.