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Phagga: Sorry about that. Not my best moment.
Risen: you are wrong. Acro and Memen explained it already. You left both me and Iamperfection alive in the endgame which was crazy. You had claimed doctors early and decided not to hit them. I don't get it.
Toad: thank you for being so sportsmanly when you were confirmed scum not just shitting up the thread. Really gained a lot of respect for you there.
Hapa: sorry about tunneling you for much of the game. You played in such a way that I couldn't see a townie you playing. You never rallied yourself or town in a big way and I assumed you were scum. Once again I was mislead by my own assumptions about a player whose skill I respect, sometimes even the best don't have their best games and I need to remind myself of that.
Zbo: next time you are replacing out consider not posting. I don't know how many people share my view but I think it is relatively bad mannered to make a big list post and jump ship right after. If you still had a cycle in you that would have been fine play but as it was I'd ask you to reconsider it if you ever need to replace out in the future.
GK: sorry for being wrong about you. But, you know, when someone makes a case on you and you respond to a mentality argument with "this isn't even worth my time" you are doing it wrong. Your responses were way scummier than anything up to that point and I suggest you re-think how you approach being tunneled. It isn;t fun for any of us but your best bet is to play pro-town in response to a case and to work to disprove it instead of just saying that it isn't true.
Syllo: I still don't understand why you tunneled me so hard for so long. I feel that I did an admirable job proving my townieness through the whole game and I really don't understand why you didn't feel the same way. I'd love it if you would take the time so that I can figure out how to play better.
Acro: really, really, really well played. I can't tell you enough how impressed I've been with you this game.
I was shocked as other people claimed throughout the game how much better my abilities were than others. I don't think I would have been so cavalier about outing myself if I had suspected that I had one of the stronger town roles, in fact all of us support roles (myself, Djo and Clarity) seemed the most over powered of the non party member roles.
Grey and Memen (and Hassy too) you guys were great. Thanks. I know I was a little snippy at you guys when you didn't accurately pm me about night results and I just wanted to say sorry. You all did an amazing job hosting this and setting it up. Thanks!
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I found it funny how syllo lived for like 15 cycles this game as town
He usually just dies on N1 lol
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To be fair I did protect him an inordinate amount of times.
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On December 14 2012 06:21 gonzaw wrote:
I found it funny how syllo lived for like 15 cycles this game as town
He usually just dies on N1 lol
it's not like we didn't try to kill him... like every single night^^
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I didn't believe that your role could exist in the game because it felt way too strong (it was) and I thought your claim timing and reason for claiming were both suspicious. There was no reason to claim and you forced another person who I thought was town to claim for no reason. Then you overreacted to my suspicions. Also I thought you initially clearly said something that suggested that your role RBs and tracks, which is what my role does, but it was actually Kita who alluded to that. In retrospect I forgot that townies love to claim for no reason at all.
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On December 14 2012 06:31 syllogism wrote:
I didn't believe that your role could exist in the game because it felt way too strong (it was) and I thought your claim timing and reason for claiming were both suspicious. There was no reason to claim and you forced another person who I thought was town to claim for no reason. Then you overreacted to my suspicions. Also I thought you initially clearly said something that suggested that your role RBs and tracks, which is what my role does, but it was actually Kita who alluded to that. In retrospect I forgot that townies love to claim for no reason at all.
Is that other person Sand? Or Marv. I had a scum read on Sand and my goal was to force him to claim. I figured a 1 for 1 trade of me for Sand was awesome for town. He is a well known great player and I am an average player who is good at looking townie and not much else.
Thanks for explaining. The claim may have been silly but I think my play fully exonerated me. I wish my role Roleblocked and Tracked, that is also super over powered (I don't get how, when you had that role, you thought mine was OP) and seems like a fun thing to do.
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We were already lynching Sandroba at the time. Perhaps from your point of view there was still uncertainty, but I think he was clearly in the lead in votes. I meant marv.
Yes my role was too strong as well, but your role seemed to make someone completely invulnerable in addition to providing a lot of information when people claimed being roleblocked. Not only that, but it lasts for 2 cycles and even if no one happens to visit it gives a free damage shield too. It's a role with almost no downsides no matter who you happen to target. Factional KP being unblockable somewhat weakens it, but mafia only had a bit of that.
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Oh yea, Syllo. I actually had a track and alignment check too. But never got enough points to use more than the jail once and track once.
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On December 14 2012 06:57 syllogism wrote:
We were already lynching Sandroba at the time. Perhaps from your point of view there was still uncertainty, but I think he was clearly in the lead in votes. I meant marv.
Yes my role was too strong as well, but your role seemed to make someone completely invulnerable in addition to providing a lot of information when people claimed being roleblocked. Not only that, but it lasts for 2 cycles and even if no one happens to visit it gives a free damage shield too. It's a role with almost no downsides no matter who you happen to target. Factional KP being unblockable somewhat weakens it, but mafia only had a bit of that.
factional KP wasn't unblockable, only untrackable as noone had to "deliver" the damage.
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It was not totally a sure thing in my mind and I had already planned on using my role to see who targeted you anyway. I had my game theory argument that one of you/Sand was scum and I was very sure of it. I had Sand as scum from d1 and having a role based reason to call him out for it was perfect. I think my claim was silly, you are right, but it still made sense to me at the time.
I think my role was balanced around the idea of me RBing townies as well as scum, the more obvious the target I went for the more townie protection roles I would block. The guy I was protecting couldn't be healed for two cycles either. I don't really know. I'm actually really curious what GreY thinks about it.
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On December 14 2012 07:03 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 06:57 syllogism wrote:
We were already lynching Sandroba at the time. Perhaps from your point of view there was still uncertainty, but I think he was clearly in the lead in votes. I meant marv.
Yes my role was too strong as well, but your role seemed to make someone completely invulnerable in addition to providing a lot of information when people claimed being roleblocked. Not only that, but it lasts for 2 cycles and even if no one happens to visit it gives a free damage shield too. It's a role with almost no downsides no matter who you happen to target. Factional KP being unblockable somewhat weakens it, but mafia only had a bit of that. factional KP wasn't unblockable, only untrackable as noone had to "deliver" the damage.
He meant unblockable via roleblock, which is how Prom's ability would have been able to block it.
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Toad: my ability didn't block your factional KP. Since your kp didn't originate from a player it could not be role blocked.
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Crossposting from the obs qt
the reason it was so hard for us to kill people this game was that
(1) there were incentives to spread out our damage, stuff like my roleshot and people deciding to use their night actions to build up shitty alibies rather than just do damage to our main targets.
(2) people were choosing their individual actions rather than coordinating as a team. I've learned a big lesson here for if I'm scum again in a heavily themed game, you have to have a plan.
(3) to go along with (2), several of the team members were either uninvested or discombobulated and confused by how massive the thread was. Sandro, toad, REDACTED, biosc, and myself all fell into this category. I don't know what reasons REDACTED and biosc had for replacing, and toad was confirmed scum pretty early on and just kind of had to sit there and wait to be lynched, so their dis-investment is understandable. But the scum team really had zero players who were able to keep up with the thread.
(4) there were some blatantly confusing decisions made on targets. For example, I still am unsure why we focus fired Marv, when his power was pretty useless, he wasn't pushing any cases on any of us, and he was like the strongest advocate of me being town. It ended up not mattering since I got lynched based on sandro's night action result rather than the case against me, but I think we should have focus fired Syllo instead. Another confusing decision is why we decided to focus so much KP on djodref.
The thing about those decisions is, they weren't discussed and decided based on a strategy so much as they were just the results of someone at the last minute being 'oh shit i have to send in night actions'. The scum team really needed someone to coordinate them, but our strongest scum player (imo) (Toad) was confirmed scum by dt checks super early. Sandro was too wrapped up in how bad he is at playing scum and how well syllogism can read him to actually try to do anything, he just psyched himself out and then gave up. BioSC and REDACTED are both pretty inexperienced, and both replaced out. REDACTED and REDACTED both have more experience playing scum than I do (I think - could be wrong here) but they're normally pretty low-profile players anyway; but they were probably the most engaged of the whole scum team, props to them, but they didn't really do anything in the way of leadership. And if I really could focus on the game I would have been able to at least try to organize a team strategy (or at least, I'd like to think so), but I was planning on catching up to the game when I got back from England and it just got so big that could never make headway.
Having VE replace in for biosc gave me hope that he would pull us together, but that just didn't happen and instead he just stopped playing for whatever reason.
So yeah, there's absolutely no way to blame mechanics or luck. The blame for losing this hard should go squarely at the feet of the mafia team, and of the town's ridiculous horrible super activity.
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Honestly though I'm very disappointed in sandroba. Syllo caught him right away, sure, but as soon as that happened he didn't even try.
The massive difference in shit-giving between when some players are scum versus town is kind of a problem. It's like, sacrificing one half of your game to make the other half better. Even if you enjoy one side more, it's just, like, disrespectful to your teammates.
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But yeah, having two replacements didn't help either, since the game was so active it was pretty much impossible to replace into competently
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On December 14 2012 07:43 strongandbig wrote:
But yeah, having two replacements didn't help either, since the game was so active it was pretty much impossible to replace into competently
austin replaced in amazingly well. He must have put in a TON of effort to look so good. Especially when people were about ready to lynch Zbo. Getting phagga lynched over himself was a pretty crazy feat... and with 20/20 hindsight he probably saved my ass. If I had been there I would have yelled and screamed and raged at everybody to stop being idiots, but I have to admit that he probably saved me.
Particularly getting the last 2 votes or so for saving a confirmed townie from a modkill. /facepalm.
Nobody would have found TC ever after that totally wild claim and I am not sure I could have actually gotten phagga lynched over myself. It would definitely have been a lot harder.
VE, however, replaced in after 1 cycle and while the thread was moving really fast, he should have been able to keep up better than he did. If he hadn't gotten modkilled he would almost certainly have gotten either shot or lynched.
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None of you have actually plotted out a path to scum victory like I just did to town victory. You just say "Oh I disagree, scum could have won by doing X"
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On December 14 2012 07:52 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 07:43 strongandbig wrote:
But yeah, having two replacements didn't help either, since the game was so active it was pretty much impossible to replace into competently austin replaced in amazingly well. He must have put in a TON of effort to look so good. Especially when people were about ready to lynch Zbo. Getting phagga lynched over himself was a pretty crazy feat... and with 20/20 hindsight he probably saved my ass. If I had been there I would have yelled and screamed and raged at everybody to stop being idiots, but I have to admit that he probably saved me. Particularly getting the last 2 votes or so for saving a confirmed townie from a modkill. /facepalm. Nobody would have found TC ever after that totally wild claim and I am not sure I could have actually gotten phagga lynched over myself. It would definitely have been a lot harder. VE, however, replaced in after 1 cycle and while the thread was moving really fast, he should have been able to keep up better than he did. If he hadn't gotten modkilled he would almost certainly have gotten either shot or lynched.
I would never, ever have suggested to lynch you. No idea what I would have done if I survived for another cycle, but it never crossed my mind to try to put the lynch on you as long as there is scum out there.
I assume I would have just given up when people would have started to pile votes on me. Or tunnel GK some more. Yeah, probably that one.
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Fine.
Scum gets elected to party leader and takes 3 townies. In contrast to expectations, party succeeds. Mislynch into any of the town candidates for running for leader. Particularly if it was contested, the other candidate is batantly scum, together with anybody who voted for him.
So at the end of D2 you have "confirmed town" and a mislynch.
D3 party: get your scum leader into the party. This time the party fails (because harder to succeed).
D4 party: push for a party with none of the D3 candidates. Get the OTHER 2 D1 candidates and 2 random townies. Party success is irrelevant. If failure, that is fucking fantastic, if success, then /shrug, you aready have lynch candidates.
D5: mislynch random townie invited into D3 party.
D6: event. Given how terribad we were at the event, you can expect some deaths and lots of fail, regardless of what scum does.
D7: mislynch the OTHER random townie invited into D3 party.
By now you have mislynched 3/3 townies, had townies take a bunch of damage from failed events and hopefully shot some of the claimed healers and/or stronger townies dead by focus firing the KP. Iamperfection could have died from faction KP alone by the end of N3. Using abilities and scum KP, you could have had Marv AND Iamperfection dead. Prom should also be dead by this time. Syllo and Clarity are the dangers. Roleblock Syllo and focus clarity down with scum KP and Mammon Machine by N6. Random 250 damage flying around at people who nameclaimed, risk is chipping away at people in his mason channel and TC is flinging random damage at random people. Additionally you have H1 shooting townies, Adam trying to shoot townies.
By the end of D7 you have 10 dead townies. Of the good players maybe Syllo is still hanging on and Kita is probably alive. I might be alive too, but I am nothing to fear.
D8-10 you will probably lose a scum or two to lynches. Bus the crap out of Toad. In the meantime clean up Syllo and Kita. Town is now left with no strong abilities and no clear leaders. Maybe Hapa or Keirathi can rally, the town, but honestly, they should be firmly in some scum player's hand. By this time I have thrown in my lot with scum, except that I still want to kill Toad.
You hit Lavos with no strong abilities, 6/7 scum alive and town down to about 6 people as well, all already taken some damage and no healers. Lavos takes 350 damage (plus 100-200 from abiities) the first day and that decreases as town dies out slowly from scum damage and Lavos damage. Even better if you can somehow convince the little bit of town damage still left to try to kill scum, rather than Lavos. When Toad is dead, Acro starts kiling townies to get the game over as fast as possibe.
GG?
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Lol. Yes, that's entirely likely (sarcasm). At least in my example I gave scum benefit of the doubt in a lot of things, but was realistic and hey maybe scum was that good. You just gave scum a win whenever possible and assumed horrible town play.
In my example I gave scum a benefit, but didn't go overboard. In yours you just said fuck it scum gets everything they could dream of. I should have been more clear. In what way does this game play out where scum doesn't have to massively outplay town to win? How does anyone on the scum team know who the healers are, who the roleblockers are, who the trackers are? How does scum even know these roles exist? Why does any townie nameclaim? Why don't the townies being lynched nameclaim and save themselves since scum can't counterclaim without trading themselves 1 for 1? Sure you'll get the fakeclaims Grey has set up for scum in return, but no one is going to counterclaim you if you're a main character. How do you counterclaim someone like Chrono, Marle, Lucca, Frog, or Robo? What do we have to punish those name claims? 250 damage a night? Sweet.
10 cycles go by and scum has managed to get a townie killed or lynched every cycle. Is that really plausible? Even the hosts have said they didn't want people dying from KP until cycle 3 or 4, but we'll say it happened that way because of town lynching themselves. I think I'm being generous to scum when I say only 8 members of town are alive at the end and that includes Crono because once he claims there's no way he's dying and even if he does he can be resurrected. Only 5 scum members live to Lavos spawn in my new scenario. Only losing 2 scum all the way until the end of the game out of 7 members? Must be an auto-win. Just kidding.
+ Show Spoiler +
8 town alive
Lavos takes 200+25*8=400. Then assume of the eight town members they only manage to pump out 300 damage because they're all weaklings.
1300/2000
Lavos hits for wet noodles, but scum has KP that kills two people including crono. Yeah!
6 town alive
Lavos takes 200+25*6=350. Then assume they can only pump out 200.
750/2000
Scum kills another 2 because they're awesome, and even though up until this point they haven't been able to kill 2 people a night, we're going to say they got there because of Lavos.
4 town alive
Lavos takes 200+25*4=300. Darn, town can only pump out 125 now.
325
Scum gets another 2!!! Woohoo!
2 town alive
Lavos takes 200+25*2=250. Town squeaks out 75 damage on the final night. Town victory!
In this scenario Lavos decides to play nice and he doesn't rb an important scum member or kill any scum member ever.
Even then! This scenario only plays out because we assume the mammon machine doesn't get used because scum team is having a ball letting the nights just roll on.
Thank every power that is Toad was roleblocked into oblivion this game and didn't die very fast. If he had, Lavos would have come even sooner and town would have had that much more an advantage. Using it was literally like shooting yourself in the foot, except you didn't actually know you were shooting yourself so you just kept doing it. Where is any benefit at all to getting Lavos out early? Earlier Lavos = more town players alive = more damage to it. Well fuck.
Let's assume the perfect scum game. Town kills itself at every opportunity and scum is sitting on cloud nine. Lavos gets summoned after 7 cycles. 4 failed events and the mammon machine is charging like a boss. Town has lost 8 of it's members over 7 cycles. Holy hot damn this game is over for them. Nope.
+ Show Spoiler +
10 town alive = 200+25*10=450 damage passively. Passively after a single night almost a quarter of its life gone. Town aims everything at Lavos since that's their only way to win. Town deals 300 damage to Lavos from their abilities. A mere 300 from ten people. Whatever, I'm giving scum benefits here.
1150/2000
3 townies die because that's how Lavos rolls.
7 town alive = 200+25*7=375. Town deals 200 damage.
575/2000
3 more die.
4 town alive = 200+25*4=300. Town squeaks out 100 damage.
2 more die.
275/2000
2 town alive = 200+25*1=250. Last townies deal 25 damage.
0/2000. Town victory.
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EPT
