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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 13 2012 16:08 gonzaw wrote: Who the hell is Schala? EDIT: The SNES and another version have different names I think I take it you mean "Ayla" then? Schala is Queen Zeal's daughter and Magus's older sister. http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Schala | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
Maybe, but TC almost managed to get into a party after that  | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On December 13 2012 10:37 Hapahauli wrote: Yeah I'm still pretty pissed at myself for that. Part of me thought that scum would have all but given up by that time in the game. On the lynch day, Austin was trying to get Phagga lynched, and Phagga wasn't too active. Made me ignore a lot of really townie things in his filter (like not understanding that SnB was claiming scum when he voted to go to AD 1999) After austins case 5 people voted me immediatly (in thread, Oats forgot it in the voting thread), that broke my spirit. I wrote that I would try to come up with some more facts, and I did indeed go through Adams and austins filter, but I was just tired and worn out to actually come up with an original case on austin. Plus the fact that some bias versus me was obvious, hence my reduced activity. After proms vote on me I was thinking "fuck it", stood up and walked away from the comp. I returned 5 minutes before deadline for a short last post. However, you are aware that your argument regarding "phagga has not done any scumhunting all game" quickly got down to "phagga has not done anything since D2" and then to "phagga has not done anyhting this cycle". That alone should have told you that you were probably a bit biased at that point.  Also, regarding my general play: I still struggle to voice my thoughts properly. It's not that I just straight up forgot that I had CJ marked as scum, I actually thought about it a lot, and with time just came to the conclusion that he might be town. However, I never wrote that, hence the confusion. Trust me, stuff like that happens IRL too, my wife can tell you tales... Regarding Risens play: In hindsight I think it was very unlucky for scum that his alignement check on Acro/Hope worked out. Would he have hit two townies, he might have pushed two misslynches (one mafia more in the endgame barring nightkills, probably one town less), and more mafia players would have been around longer to deal damage. The misslynches would not have been until around N7, so he still would have gotten away as townie for a long time. And with all the shenanigans around Hapas host PMs he might have even be able to lie his way out of the misslynches? Who knows, but since he never got to be in the party and the party that he was supposed to be in failed anyway, it seems mafia could not benefit nearly as much from the fake claim as possible. Regarding z-boson, I'd like to apologize in public for my reaction to him. I still think the way he left the game was... not so cool, but my harsh reaction was uncalled for. And of course I'll still play games with him. We already PMed, so we're good I think. Somehow I was much more emotionally invested in this game than in earlier ones. I think I never had this outbreaks the same way as in this game. I hope you guys did not take offense. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 13 2012 12:41 Acrofales wrote: I won't contest that I played too towny. I talked about that with Syllo. However, my wincon says nothing about Toad reviving, so once Toad was dead I figured that all I had to do was survive and my best bet for that was to help town kill Lavos asap, because he might kill me if the struggle lasted too long. I also saved what I thought was a heal for that occasion (turns out it was a heal), or if scum went nuts and wanted me dead. Then suddenly Toad got thrown back into the ring and I thought he might respawn with max HP and I'd be screwed Luckily my new abiities were completely OP and Toad with 500 HP was killable in 2 cycles (assuming no roleblocks), even without town help. However, what would've been way worse is if town didn't trust me and kept me roleblocked, so in hindsight, even with Toad respawning and Lavos dying faster being bad, my assistance to town also ensured that I would at least not get roleblocked by town and just had to deal with Lavos' random roleblocks. Don't know. I actually disagree with mementoss on that part and got to say I liked it the way you did it. Frankly speaking you were a town aligned third party, pretty much like the assassin I played in palmars last game. The moment everyone knew you're 3rd party you're save from mafia nighthits because they have bigger problems than you and once that's the case, all you have to do is make sure you don't get targeted by town or even lynched. So under these circumstances playing it too townish isn't possible imo :p There's just no reason not to play it the way you did. You might have getten into trouble for playing less townish. Not necessarily a lynch at all, but roleblocks or damage on you from a few stray townies is possible. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
Game mechanics, role creation, balance, etc. took me and greymist a long time through skype calls haha (probably 12-15 hoursish over 2-3 weeks). I'm glad it was enjoyed. Glad to here the constructive criticism too, if a HP type game ever comes in the works again it would be nice to here what people liked, didn't like, etc. I will give more detailed thougts about game in next post. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
Zeal Plant Woman concept was based on Zyra from league of legends. The seed planting, passive ability that when you die you do damage. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zyra Roles I think needed tweaking: Nu and Ayla I think Ayla shoulda been forced into not being able to use the same action twice in a row. And I still think roleclaiming was a bit too powerful, so instead of the Nu being able to do 250 (-250 to max) maybe it coulda been based on percent max health, making it stronger vs main characters, but weaker vs minor characters. I ran random parties 25 times to get a feel to what points would be like from randomly picking parties and tried to get the following win % based on random pick for different event diffculties. Easy - 80% Medium - 65% Hard - 50% Very Hard - 35% If you didn't read the doc failing easier difficulties did more damage to all party members (excluding mafia) and harder did less. Passing events gave town a slight heal and a 1 shot 75 dmg pistol to the leader. Fun note, this game coulda been 100% different based on the first event. If frog was in the party the party was auto pass, so if frog was in the party their coulda been 3 other mafia members, that peopel probably woulda considered "confirmed town". Lol. Also the first even point threshold was possible to have 2 mafia and 2 town and pass. Town was fortunate to get a great party points wise on the first event. The game was designed so that people didnt die early or quick. If not everyone just woulda been dead before lavos lol. It was designed so that people started slowly dropping off around cycle 4, which is generally what happened. Lynches are OP. lol. Scum had a rough go, but as was said before it was based on too much bussing and some bad night action coordination between the team. Definitly is a hard game to win as scum but was possible. Its easy for me to say these things cause I had the spread sheet and knew what was going on. Here is what I think coulda made a scum victory 1) Abuse the fact that you have 7 members early on. You control 35% of the vote. Coulda swung lynches and party leaders decently easy. 2) Use faction KP (200) which is unblockable and untrackable on the main target you want to kill. Coordinate rest of KP onto your secondary or third target or split between both these targets. 3) Kill claimed supports asap. The support roles were balanced mainly because they usually had low health. Zeal Plant woman (400?) Marle (500?). Iamperfection shoulda been shot down as soon as he was claiming heals. 1 shot from Nu, and mammon machien alone woulda been almost able to take them out in 1 night. 4) Push mislynches hard, the KP scum had was hard to deliver, so mislynches were key to success. Basically my thoughts, but I realize as a player its impossible to accurately speculate these things such as player health early in the game etc. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Chaos meteor: 50 damage to target and 25 damage per cycle for 2 cycles for anyone who visits them Disarm : Role block for a cycle Firebolt: 200 damage single target nuke. Icy path: Role blocks anyone visiting me Invisibility Aura: Makes someone else untargettable Mara burn: Deal damage to them for as much damage they dealt or healed last cycle Scout: Name check Soul Blast: Damages a target for 100HP and heals me for the same amount Tornado: Jail Arcane arts: Prevent 10% of all damage upon myself for a cycle Confuse: Random redirect effect lasts a cycle EMP: It only does 10% and target B doesn't exist Firestorm: Deals 20 damage a cycle for two cycles on 3 targets. Incinerate: Deals 10XN for the people voting me where N is the number of votes. Levitation: Untargetable Portal: Bus driver Shock: Removes all buffs on a target (Shields in this case) Soul Reaver: Deals 50 damage and allows me to use two abilities next cycle Betrayal: First person visiting me reflect Deafening blast: sandwich Energy ball: Deal 200 damage to everyone visiting me. Also damages self Frost nova: Role blocks the first two people to visit me Inferno: Role blocks the target and does 75 damage Lightning shield: Hurts people for 25 damage if they visit me Power word: Doubles the effectiveness of the person's next move Shroud of flame: Sets a target on fire dealing 25 damage anyone who visits them. Telelightning: Deal 50 damage to the 3 people above me in the name list. Also the game was amazing <3 hosts | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17983 Posts
Funny to see that my initial town read on TC was 100% wrong (I did recant it pretty quickly, but still). Lesson for the future: scum come up with dumb plans just to look townie and know when to retract them when they get called derps for it. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:08 syllogism wrote: Chronicler's bus still seems so completely pointless that it just never occurred to me that he could possibly be mafia, especially after the second check. After Sandro flipped red, all the townies who were pushing for toad would have looked suspicious. Nothing was gained out of it. Also Sandro's frame bus ability suggested that there had to be an investigative role in the game and my tracking ability and acro's ability didn't seem to be enough to justify the ability being present. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't have done it if he didn't look so scummy. Anyone reading his filter would have realized how scummy he looked. Just like anyone reading Zbo's filter would realize how scummy he looked. Scum team played this game wrong assuming we could use KP to kill people. Turns out this game wasn't like that at all and had to be won through lynching. We didn't know that d1 and by d2 Toad had already posted like scum so we went through with it. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On December 13 2012 17:56 Hapahauli wrote: Schala is Queen Zeal's daughter and Magus's older sister. http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Schala Didnt't Grey say he didn't include Schala because she's a main character? From everywhere I've read there's no Schala main character in Chrono trigger  | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On December 13 2012 22:36 Mementoss wrote: + Show Spoiler + My favourite roles were probably: Gurus, Norrestein Bekkler, Master of Kitchens, Entity. Zeal Plant Woman concept was based on Zyra from league of legends. The seed planting, passive ability that when you die you do damage. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zyra Roles I think needed tweaking: Nu and Ayla I think Ayla shoulda been forced into not being able to use the same action twice in a row. And I still think roleclaiming was a bit too powerful, so instead of the Nu being able to do 250 (-250 to max) maybe it coulda been based on percent max health, making it stronger vs main characters, but weaker vs minor characters. I ran random parties 25 times to get a feel to what points would be like from randomly picking parties and tried to get the following win % based on random pick for different event diffculties. Easy - 80% Medium - 65% Hard - 50% Very Hard - 35% If you didn't read the doc failing easier difficulties did more damage to all party members (excluding mafia) and harder did less. Passing events gave town a slight heal and a 1 shot 75 dmg pistol to the leader. Fun note, this game coulda been 100% different based on the first event. If frog was in the party the party was auto pass, so if frog was in the party their coulda been 3 other mafia members, that peopel probably woulda considered "confirmed town". Lol. Also the first even point threshold was possible to have 2 mafia and 2 town and pass. Town was fortunate to get a great party points wise on the first event. The game was designed so that people didnt die early or quick. If not everyone just woulda been dead before lavos lol. It was designed so that people started slowly dropping off around cycle 4, which is generally what happened. Lynches are OP. lol. Scum had a rough go, but as was said before it was based on too much bussing and some bad night action coordination between the team. Definitly is a hard game to win as scum but was possible. Its easy for me to say these things cause I had the spread sheet and knew what was going on. Here is what I think coulda made a scum victory 1) Abuse the fact that you have 7 members early on. You control 35% of the vote. Coulda swung lynches and party leaders decently easy. 2) Use faction KP (200) which is unblockable and untrackable on the main target you want to kill. Coordinate rest of KP onto your secondary or third target or split between both these targets. 3) Kill claimed supports asap. The support roles were balanced mainly because they usually had low health. Zeal Plant woman (400?) Marle (500?). Iamperfection shoulda been shot down as soon as he was claiming heals. 1 shot from Nu, and mammon machien alone woulda been almost able to take them out in 1 night. 4) Push mislynches hard, the KP scum had was hard to deliver, so mislynches were key to success. Basically my thoughts, but I realize as a player its impossible to accurately speculate these things such as player health early in the game etc. 1) We tried to with Sand but he went afk. 2) So it takes 3 nights to kill whoever we actually want to kill and this disregards other heals and shields in game? 3) How? They potentially have leaf shields that make them immune every other night and 100dmg shields otherwise. Once Sandro was dead what did we really have? Me who did random dmg between 100-200 most likely, 200 that placed a 50dmg shield, and wiffed 1/3 of the time. That countdown timer didn't actually do anything. Town never got scared because it was something that didn't interact with town in any way shape or form. If you can't do anything about it, why worry about it? 4) Pushing mislynches is hard when you generally have to set up mislynches in advance and lynches seemed to occur randomly in this game. On top of this after the Toad lynch we still had five people. Too bad VE got modkilled, sab/risk claimed in thread as scum, and austin as I said earlier got screwed replacing into a game with a bajillion pages so messed up on his claims. Should have just modkilled zbo to save austin the trouble. Does the town actually think this game was difficult for them? Sure, we lost horribly, but look at what happened. If Sandro doesn't go afk we have 7 people able to do something about the lynch. Sandro goes afk, whatever, kind of screws Toad since he was posting like ass on purpose d1, but let's assume Toad gets lynched because people actually read filters. I claim my parity check early d2 to seal the deal on Toad and try to get in on a party. d3 rolls around we have 6 scum in decent position. I claim parity check on acro/hopeless again and say different, also claim a metric fuck ton of dmg. Acro's third party claim no longer holds as much weight because we have no real suspicious people. Acro gets lynched. This doesn't confirm hopeless at all, but it "confirms" me. Still 6 scum in decent position. Assuming VE isn't modkilled at this point, zbo isn't as scummy as he was b/c we managed to get Toad lynched d2 and he didn't go HAM on me for no reason in spite of my warnings in QT and austin replaces into something manageable, sab/risk don't openly claim scum in thread, sandro is doing his thing, and I'm going on an event team. Very winnable. Sure I get lynched because I caused the party to fail and everyone knows it's me (So why is scum ever trying to get on the team in the first place? Sure hosts know about the %win possibilities, but town doesn't, so town just assumes the new guy caused it to fail) but that still leaves 5 people in decent position. Still winable, just have to pray you never get sent on an event b/c failure doesn't actually DO anything. It's a hard game, and requires scum not to screw themselves, but even without scum screwing themselves there is NO information about town. The advantage scum usually has is that they know they can kill townies at night because scum has more information than town. This places a clock on town. In this game there was no clock, and scum doesn't actually have more information than town beyond knowing who we are. It's literally a mason circle vs the rest of the town. Town has more adjusted KP than scum does because of their roles. This seems crazy to me. Even with a scum team that doesn't decide they want to lose, how does it win? It has to massively outplay the town, in my opinion. The longer games go the more in favor of town they are. Especially when every town member is a blue. This game was designed to go very long and had no counterbalancing strong scum roles. 18 town, 7 scum Assume 2 townies lynched for every scum lynched. Assume we use the mammon machine because we don't know that summoning Lavos early is actually a really stupid thing to do and we use it every night. We had 6 lynches. Assume 4 townies lynched, 2 scum lynched. Assume scum magically knows how to aim their KP even though we don't know hp totals and town has lots of ways to mitigate damage or heal it. Assume we manage to get 7 townies killed through night actions before Lavos spawns. 9 town alive, 5 scum alive. Lavos spawns. Let's say Lavos takes 800 dmg the first night. He's at 1200/2000, but let's say we manage to kill another townie. Lavos isn't an asshat who roleblocks any scum members or hits any of us (no need to worry about that, though, he hits like a wet noodle) 8town alive, 5 scum alive, Lavos 1200/2000 Lavos takes 500 damage, two townies die. He's at 700/2000 6town, 5 scum alive, Lavos 700/2000 Lavos and scum take out 2 townies, Lavos takes 400 dmg. He's at 300/2000 4town, 5 scum active, Lavos 300/2000 Town does the final 300. Doesn't matter that there's equal numbers of scum to town and only two of us died throughout the entire game. Scum loses. How does scum win this game? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17983 Posts
Town (and everybody) had so little information that we assumed a straightforward system, while the actual system was way more convoluted. This assumption turned out to work really well, but could equally well have screwed town over monumentously. Assume for a second that Sandro or Toad managed to form the party and took 3 townies along. That person does not get lynched the next day and is in a good position to be in the party again. This party is FORCED to take 2 unconfirmed townies along. These will probably BOTH get lynched before the whole system is exposed. One thing scum should really have payed more attention to was the bit in the OP where it said that failing a party would be extremely bad for town. Nowhere is this mentioned in your QT that you should make a combined effort to get into a party. A push to really be included in the first party could have done SO much for you. However, not a single scummer even tried to look townie in D1: Sandro started off well, but went afk and never came back. Toad derped around. SnB was away. risk.nuke never manages to make himself look excessively townie (just in his meta to be fairly unreadable until later in the game). Zbo started okay, but never more than that. TC started really well, but let it slip until at the end of the day he was actually a scumspect. BioSC was lurking. Using the 7 members to make a strong push for 1 player being REALLY townie and getting included on the party would have set scum up for about 5 cycles worth of town chaos. Also, you say you didn't have enough KP, but I honestly think that is false. SnB had 250 to claimers, in addition to his 20% HP destroyer. Sandro had 200 over time, VE had quite a lot of conditional, Toad had 100, risk had 150 conditional and you yourself had some random KP. Add 200 factional KP and by making directed use of your KP to kill off healers and other protective roles (or in the beginning just focusing on strong town characters like Marv, Syllo or Kita), you could have killed off far more than 7 players at night. Hell, as it is 6 townies died and that was while severely derping up the KP. The way the game played out it looks like a landslide victory for town that scum was incapable of stopping, but with better D1 play (taking advantage of the sheer number of scummers) and more coordinated night actions, it could absolutely have been possible to hit Lavos in a very advantageous position. | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
On December 14 2012 04:19 Acrofales wrote: Risen, I was almost agreeing with you, until I started reasoning it out. The lack of information about how parties worked turned out to be a boon for town, but D1 working out differently could have completely screwed them over. Town (and everybody) had so little information that we assumed a straightforward system, while the actual system was way more convoluted. This assumption turned out to work really well, but could equally well have screwed town over monumentously. Assume for a second that Sandro or Toad managed to form the party and took 3 townies along. That person does not get lynched the next day and is in a good position to be in the party again. This party is FORCED to take 2 unconfirmed townies along. These will probably BOTH get lynched before the whole system is exposed. One thing scum should really have payed more attention to was the bit in the OP where it said that failing a party would be extremely bad for town. Nowhere is this mentioned in your QT that you should make a combined effort to get into a party. A push to really be included in the first party could have done SO much for you. However, not a single scummer even tried to look townie in D1: Sandro started off well, but went afk and never came back. Toad derped around. SnB was away. risk.nuke never manages to make himself look excessively townie. Zbo started okay, but never more than that. TC started really well, but let it slip until at the end of the day he was actually a scumspect. BioSC was lurking. Using the 7 members to make a strong push for 1 player being REALLY townie and getting included on the party would have set scum up for about 5 cycles worth of town chaos. Also, you say you didn't have enough KP, but I honestly think that is false. SnB had 250 to claimers, in addition to his 20% HP destroyer. Sandro had 200 over time, VE had quite a lot of conditional, Toad had 100, risk had 150 conditional and you yourself had some random KP. Add 200 factional KP and by making directed use of your KP to kill off healers and other protective roles (or in the beginning just focusing on strong town characters like Marv, Syllo or Kita), you could have killed off far more than 7 players at night. Hell, as it is 6 townies died and that was while severely derping up the KP. The way the game played out it looks like a landslide victory for town that scum was incapable of stopping, but with better D1 play (taking advantage of the sheer number of scummers) and more coordinated night actions, it could absolutely have been possible to hit Lavos in a very advantageous position. In addition to if the scumteam was looking more townie, it becomes more likely that town KP gets pointed at other townies (GK, Phagga, me, etc.) letting you guys focus down clarity or lamp with your factional KP and then town has very limited heals left. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17983 Posts
Some roles may have been a tad overpowered. Greymist already mentioned Syllo's role. Clarity's role was pretty damned OP too. Prom's mass roleblock, once coordinated was also damned strong. However, I don't think the setup was inherently unbalanced. In completely other news, I have figured out all the night result puzzles! Weird DoT: scum going derpaderp with their KP Missing damage to Lavos: host error, Syllo's boulder toss didn't get counted. Unexplained 75 damages: Hapa throwing flame throwers around like it's no big thing. Everything related to Drazerk: Drazerk lying his ass off. Except for the roleblock. Guess a fizzled roleblock didn't need explaining, whereas it definitely did need explaining why I couldn't chat to Drazerk | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
>_> | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
If we give scum more KP and scum is playing good scum wins before lavos for sure. This is a situation we wanted to avoid. Also scum playing town like at all woulda been lols, scum had so much HP they were not gunna die at night. Toad mammon machine would never die. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
If I recall correctly (only played resistance 1, nothing else) it was a mini game and the events started out with 3 man. So maybe it should have started out with events of 5 people but other than that it was fine. You just have to play it differntly. Our team was mainly a bunch of lurkerish players not doing a thing. That works in normal games but it's not working in this kind of game especially given the size of the game. | ||
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