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I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores.
-Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much 
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flame on
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On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
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On July 05 2011 08:19 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:14 xbankx wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On July 05 2011 08:10 iloveroo wrote:On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote:
well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,.................... you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D: except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg. that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:17 Dente wrote:
The theorycrafting here is amazing. Yes, it takes 6 snipes to kill a broodlord, and it also takes 12 to kill an ultralisk. You guys forget some things about ghosts:
- 5 ghosts cost 1000 minerals. Terrans have alot of GAS vs zerg, not alot of MINERALS.
- it is very easy for zerg to overrun you when you have ghosts. Speedlings are amazing against them.
- by the time you got 12 snipes on the ultralisk, your ghosts are dead. The zerg army MOVES guys, you can't just chill and snipe...
In the perfect game, I would have 2 cloacked ghost, I would run towards 12 clumped infestors, I would emp them twice so all the energy would be gone, and I would destroy his infestors with my marines. He would have no detection. if you have spare gas, you could spend it on ravens/banshees maybe. ravens can be very powerful with HSM and brood lords cant run away.
The problem is how many ghost do you need per infestor or per broodlord? I mean we can't really asy for sure but terran needs a decent tank count(obvious else mass ling/bling still wins) and ugprades. Terran need a lot of ghost. If your plan is to emp+snipe we aren;t talking about 10-11 ghost that thorzain uses against toss. You probably need an upward of 20 ghost(3 snipes for infestors 6 for broods just do the math).
Another problem with ghost is that you you have to add a lot of tech labs. Ghost aren't very good versus mass lings/bling(even if they do do same dps as marines). Once you finish brood/infestors(if it acutally happens), they switch tech to mass lings/bling or hack even roaches. You are still screwed. Cause in orer to make ghost, all your barracks went on tech labs(or most) which means you can't keep up against zerg's production off techlabs only. Sudden tech switches by zerg late game forces a lot from terran.
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On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to). Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes. Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play. Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it). Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best. My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts. If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Flame on
dude... I used to play you in wow :o
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On July 05 2011 08:14 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:10 eu.exodus wrote:On July 05 2011 07:56 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:50 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:47 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote:
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords). And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played. Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/ Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you. The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that. The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. ) Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops. I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though. terran mechnics are not like zerg mechanics. as i terran, i cant build 1 tech building and spam the unlocked unit from the same building i get everything else from. if i was producing marines from (for arguments sake) 8 rax + tanks/ hellions from 4 fact + medivacs from 1 reactor port its not as easy as you might think to do a sudden tech switch and have enough production capabilities to handle your tech switch with my existing structures. What are you even arguing? Terran don't have to do large tech switches. Marines are always good. Tanks are always good. Medivacs are always good. Only at the 16-20 minute mark, when the threat of brood lords appears, do you even have to consider putting a reactor on a starport for vikings, or making a ghost academy. It's not like you need 8 tech lab barracks to make ghosts, you need at most 2.
how exactly am i to make enough vikings of 1 reactored starport to deal with 5 hatches worth of broodlord corruptor infestor at as you have stated the 16-20 min mark. make more marines maybe? oh yes fungals + broodlings + my starport is all tied up making vikings to make medivacs making stim more of a liabilty. thors maybe?? oh yes neural parasite + broodlings. ghosts? please.... dude was saying not to preemptiveley make shit. how the fuck should i do it afterwards? was my argument....
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On July 05 2011 08:26 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:
[quote]
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before  Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read. TvZ is all about making the zerg mess up. In a perfect world where zerg get to do what he want, terran would never win. Btw, a heavy infestor player will rarely have baneling too. You just can't support the gas to make corruptor broodlord infestor AND baneling.
So you agree that if both the terran and zerg play a perfect game the zerg would always win. Thank you, because this by defintion is imbalance.
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On July 05 2011 08:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles? testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
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On July 05 2011 08:27 Gimmickkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:
[quote]
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read. Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
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On July 05 2011 08:30 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:14 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 05 2011 08:10 eu.exodus wrote:On July 05 2011 07:56 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:50 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:47 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote:
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords). And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played. Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/ Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you. The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that. The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. ) Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops. I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though. terran mechnics are not like zerg mechanics. as i terran, i cant build 1 tech building and spam the unlocked unit from the same building i get everything else from. if i was producing marines from (for arguments sake) 8 rax + tanks/ hellions from 4 fact + medivacs from 1 reactor port its not as easy as you might think to do a sudden tech switch and have enough production capabilities to handle your tech switch with my existing structures. What are you even arguing? Terran don't have to do large tech switches. Marines are always good. Tanks are always good. Medivacs are always good. Only at the 16-20 minute mark, when the threat of brood lords appears, do you even have to consider putting a reactor on a starport for vikings, or making a ghost academy. It's not like you need 8 tech lab barracks to make ghosts, you need at most 2. how exactly am i to make enough vikings of 1 reactored starport to deal with 5 hatches worth of broodlord corruptor infestor at as you have stated the 16-20 min mark. make more marines maybe? oh yes fungals + broodlings + my starport is all tied up making vikings to make medivacs making stim more of a liabilty. thors maybe?? oh yes neural parasite + broodlings. ghosts? please.... dude was saying not to preemptiveley make shit. how the fuck should i do it afterwards? was my argument....
Have you never watched GSL terrans ownin everyone?
They scout and scan. The instant they see hive started, they begin making vikings, and the good ones will have 6-10 before any brood lords are finished morphing.
They then keep the vikings in siege tank and as well as split up. If they see a brood lord even slightly out of position, they snipe it and run.
They also get +1 and +2 and even eventually +3 air attack, so they can 1-shot brood lords with their viking ball.
If you let your entire viking ball be caught in fungal, out of range of tanks to protect them, then you deserve to lose.
On July 05 2011 08:32 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:27 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:[quote] because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read. Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x. sure. destiny vs bomber game 1
Bomber played pretty poorly in that series.
But I guess if Destiny and his OPfestors are so strong he should go win the next GSL, usually dominated by terrans, it's working out well for nestea.
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On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote:I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to). Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes. Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play. Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores.-Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it). Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best. My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts. If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Flame on
PERFECT post. This describes PERFECTLY how TvZ works and this should be added to the OP. I "bolded" the most important parts.
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Recently i've lost a ZvT where my opponent went a marouder marine Tank comp against my Infestor ling. At about 200 apm he was able to split his marines making so that 1 fungal would only hit 3-4 marines it was very entertaining to watch;even though i lost. Late game he had gotten ghosts...and i lost.
What i'm trying to say is infestors might be OP but just let it play out for a month, let Terrans experiment with faster ghosts+splitting.
(1400 point masters)
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The infestor is my favourite unit next to the Hydralisk, and it's great to see it being used alot more. Just lately there, Destiny has been showing great use of this unit. As a long time Zerg player, I am really happy to see this unit being used more ^^
It's ability to create an army of slow marines is amazing and the harassment possibiitys and mind control possibilitys are really cool.
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On July 05 2011 08:32 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:27 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:[quote] because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read. Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x. sure. destiny vs bomber game 1 bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does" the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression" however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss" and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
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On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to). Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes. Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play. Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it). Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best. My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts. If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Flame on
Thanks for this Beasty :D
Nice to get an actual high level terrans opinion on it.
Heres the Thorzain example he mentioned which I posted:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2011 07:46 Jono7272 wrote:Thorzain seems to be trying Mass Ghost in his late game now! Didn't turn out too well in this example though..
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On July 05 2011 08:35 Gimmickkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:32 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 08:27 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:
[quote]
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read. Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x. sure. destiny vs bomber game 1 bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does" the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression" however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss" and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is. if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
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What beastyqt wrote is 100% true, I think he has a vastly different perspective from almost anyone else does on the thread, as he plays vs top pro zergs consistently, and therefore understands the metagame of tvz at a high level. The most important point being that ghosts are at their most effective only when you catch the zerg completely off guard.
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On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote:I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to). Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes. Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play. Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it). Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best. My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts. If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Flame on
listen to the man, hes one of the best tvz players in eu and knows what hes talking
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On July 05 2011 08:34 OhMyGawd wrote:
Recently i've lost a ZvT where my opponent went a marouder marine Tank comp against my Infestor ling. At about 200 apm he was able to split his marines making so that 1 fungal would only hit 3-4 marines it was very entertaining to watch;even though i lost. Late game he had gotten ghosts...and i lost.
What i'm trying to say is infestors might be OP but just let it play out for a month, let Terrans experiment with faster ghosts+splitting.
(1400 point masters)
Infestors by themselves is fine. It is still strong but managable with ghosts+emp+tanks. I have won before against mass infestor/ling/bling. All I did was slow push with tanks and if tey engage badly then they lose. The main problem for me is infestors+broodlords. As a terran player, Im just crossing my fingers that he is looking away from screen so I can stim with marines or go in with vikings and kill the 1-2 broods then back else there is really no way to engage in any cost effecient manner.
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On July 05 2011 08:37 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:35 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:32 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 08:27 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:
[quote]
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read. Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x. sure. destiny vs bomber game 1 bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does" the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression" however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss" and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is. if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob. i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o
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Terrans here are theorycrafting too much.
People have the assumption zerg will stop everything you try.
Look at the Ling bling style in ZvP. You do a lot of drops. Well, even if protoss defend them all, the style still work if one out of 10 drops work. ( Morrow vs Cruncher game 2 on Shakuras EG Master cup final )
Marines drops work kinda like that. Marines are even more cost efficient than Lings, and don't tell me drops are impossible to do against mutaless zergs. Zerg will NOT have an infestor per base, with sepine crawler covering everything. That's not the reality of the game damnit.
I mean, really Beastyqt, you can't believe in what you wrote about drops being inneficient because zerg get dropped once in a game and so is prepared for every drops possibility.
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EPT
