Abilities: Infested Terran: Spawns an Infested Terran which hatches in 5 seconds and has 100 health that lasts 30 seconds and benefits from ranged attack upgrades. 25 energy.
Fungal Growth: Locks down units in an area, dealing 36(46,8 vs armored) damage over 4 seconds(11,7 dps vs armored, 9 dps vs others). 75 energy, 9 range.
Neural Parasite: Controls the targeted unit for 15 seconds. The unit is not auto-targeted by neither player, and can still cast spells while also having all the upgrades of the original owner. Neural Parasite has a casting range of 9, but it can still control a unit up to 14 range from the infestor. 100 energy. Requires Neural Parasite upgraded from the Infestation Pit.
Upgrades: Zerg ground Carapace, Burrow
Pathogen Glands - Increases the starting energy of new infestors by 25. 80 seconds. Neural Parasite - Allows Infestors to cast Neural Parasite. 110 seconds.
So, Zerg's offesive caster, the Infestor. Early on the game, around august 2010, Infestor was seen just as a 'compliment' for the Zerg army, maybe a cool "gosu" unit that synergizes with banelings, or a "lulz" unit for mass parasites and maybe to get the Zerglot achievement.
Not too long in the game development, however, Mr Bitter came up with this cool new strategy which he entitled as Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT. Basically he would deviate from the famous Muta/Ling popularized by IdrA and play with zerglings and infestors in ZvT, favoring massive amounts of upgrades and getting a quick tier 3 for both Adrenal Glands and either Brood Lords or Ultralisks.
This was before the Infestor Buff that reduced the duration of fungal growths by four seconds(while maintaining the damage). In that time, infestor/ling would be seen as a very hard to use build, but also very efficient.
Recently however, people seem to have changed their mind. Not only Infestors are dealing insane DPS for this build, compositions like Infestor/Brood Lord are said to be unbeatable if Zerg is capable of achieving that economy level. The idea is that infestors lock-down(and kill) marines and vikings, while Brood Lords either force tanks to unsiege or just straight up kill them. If the tanks unsiege, then space is open for zerglings(and even banelings) to wreak havoc on the terran army - which is supposedly behind in upgrades.
Players like Destiny or coL.CatZ - and even Spanishiwa, who loves using them on ZvP as well - are achieving some huge wins thanks to these guys. Games where they would have outright lost, are won because of their infestor use. Zerg needs one more base? Not really, because infestor/ling(/ultra) is so cost efficient. For an example, Day9 casted an insane game between Destiny and Startale's Bomber, where a usual zerg would have left the game right on the first minutes of the game.
This happens because of the versatility of Infestors: Infested Terrans can take down expansions in no time(if you ever watched destiny's ZvZs on his stream, you'd understand it), they can freak tanks out similar to brood lings and are free, stronger marines. Fungal Growth is an insane DPS dealer while it is also stops the possibility of micro from your opponent. Neural Parasite has its uses as well: taking tanks and using your opponent against himself is the best example.
However, as people said time and time, ghosts hard counter infestors thanks to EMP. However, is that really true or is it just a "soft" counter? Ever since the ghost was nerfed to be balanced against HTs(who also lost their amulet), infestors have become stronger. The fact that you need 4, maybe 5 EMPs to essentially take down all infestor's energy is quite huge, considering their model size(which make EMPs inefficient compared to HTs) and considering that it is very common to achieve over 100 energy. Also, infestors without fungals aren't useless: they can still throw infested terrans to buff your army, even if they are slow(as hell).
Also, if you take a look at korean ladder and metagame, you hardly see infestors used "Destiny style", which could even justify bomber's loss(he is not used to it). Why is it? Maybe koreans know something about them that make them so useless, or maybe these infestor-based zergs are just ahead on the metagame? What is it that a Terran player - a korean terran - do that makes korean zergs not use these infestors? Ghosts, who are efficient against Zerg's ultras and brood lords and also against infestors, why is it that they weren't quite enough for Bomber(or most of the terrans that lose to these guys really)? Are ghosts too weak? Are infestors too strong? Or maybe there is a completely different answer to infestors that Terrans are not using enough?
What can the Terrans do against this "crazy" mass infestor/tier 3(or infestor/ling) that is being so effective against terran's compositions?
I'd like to see people's opinions about this controversial unit, the Infestor. Yes, this thread is kind-of a balance related thread, but it has the purpose of a discussion about the unit, not about "THIS OP NERF IT" and that's it. I wonder if this would fit better in the Strategy section though, since what I want to know about is, in essence, "how do terrans deal with infestors lategame".
I'm a Zerg player sick of being called overpowered for using infestors abilities to their full extent, and having no answer to the "how do i deal with it?" question.
The idea that the infestor is OP is questionable at best. No doubt it's much stronger than the rest of the Zerg army, however I feel its a crutch for the mid/late game when certain unit combinations from T/P threatened to completely nullify at Zerg as a race (mass mech, toss deathball, mass 3/3 marine). As a diamond zerg I've lost quite a few games using infestor play; mainly against HT, ghost, siege tanks and mass air. There are plenty of counters to infestor play as long as you don't pack all of your units into a tiny area. Dealing with infestor is very similar to dealing with storm except you have a much bigger target for EMP/Feedback. Personally I feel infestor play is more dangerous than HT play, if your infestors get Feedbacked/EMP'd/Killed it's instant GG. When you dump all that gas into infestors the rest of the already sad Zerg army becomes a complete rollover if the infestors are not effective.
On July 05 2011 05:30 Mr. Nefarious wrote: The idea that the infestor is OP is a joke. Forcefield has been negating micro since the beta, is tier 1.5, costs a ton less and is part of at least 80% of toss armies. The infestor was buffed since Zerg win rates were atrocious against the deathball and mass mech. As a diamond zerg I've lost quite a few games using infestor play; mainly against HT, ghost, siege tanks and mass air. There are plenty of counters to infestor play as long as you don't pack all of your units into a tiny area. Dealing with infestor is very similar to dealing with storm except you have a much bigger target for EMP/Feedback. Personally I feel infestor play is more dangerous than HT play, if your infestors get Feedbacked/EMP'd/Killed it's instant GG. When you dump all that gas into infestors the rest of the already sad Zerg army becomes a complete rollover if the infestors are not effective.
What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome.
Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with.
On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote: Caster are OP, all of them. That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_-
Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes.
well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
On July 05 2011 05:30 Mr. Nefarious wrote: The idea that the infestor is OP is questionable at best. No doubt it's much stronger than the rest of the Zerg army, however I feel its a crutch for the mid/late game when certain unit combinations from T/P threatened to completely nullify at Zerg as a race (mass mech, toss deathball, mass 3/3 marine). As a diamond zerg I've lost quite a few games using infestor play; mainly against HT, ghost, siege tanks and mass air. There are plenty of counters to infestor play as long as you don't pack all of your units into a tiny area. Dealing with infestor is very similar to dealing with storm except you have a much bigger target for EMP/Feedback. Personally I feel infestor play is more dangerous than HT play, if your infestors get Feedbacked/EMP'd/Killed it's instant GG. When you dump all that gas into infestors the rest of the already sad Zerg army becomes a complete rollover if the infestors are not effective.
On July 05 2011 05:30 Mr. Nefarious wrote: The idea that the infestor is OP is questionable at best. No doubt it's much stronger than the rest of the Zerg army, however I feel its a crutch for the mid/late game when certain unit combinations from T/P threatened to completely nullify at Zerg as a race (mass mech, toss deathball, mass 3/3 marine). As a diamond zerg I've lost quite a few games using infestor play; mainly against HT, ghost, siege tanks and mass air. There are plenty of counters to infestor play as long as you don't pack all of your units into a tiny area. Dealing with infestor is very similar to dealing with storm except you have a much bigger target for EMP/Feedback. Personally I feel infestor play is more dangerous than HT play, if your infestors get Feedbacked/EMP'd/Killed it's instant GG. When you dump all that gas into infestors the rest of the already sad Zerg army becomes a complete rollover if the infestors are not effective.
No offense, but as a diamond anything, the reason you're losing is very rarely because of balance (I'm a diamond zerg too... and it's pretty obvious from my replays that I lose for reasons beyond balance). Only point I'm making is that I wouldn't use anecdotal evidence from your own play as evidence for balance.
That said, I personally don't think there is enough evidence to say the infestor is balanced or imbalanced. Maybe a month from now every terran will be using ghosts and crushing infestors and zergs will be crying that ghosts are imba? Heavy infestor strategies are still relatively new and it takes time for strategies to develop to counter them. Although I think we are starting to see more and more terrans using ghosts (thorzain uses them like every game against zerg, so do morrow and major).
It takes quite a bit of time for balance conclusions to be made. It's only been a few month since the infestor buff. I would hesitate before I call it imbalanced.
Terrans are starting to warm up to ghosts versus zerg, which has been a long time coming. Infestors are fine as long as the terran has ghosts to counterbalance.
Ghosts are a great answer for late game infestor play. During midgame timings when gas is limited, you need every single scrap of it thrown towards tanks otherwise you'll die to ling/baneling. Other than that infestor play isn't hard to deal with, only really tough in the midgame where tanks are so important.
Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though.
Yeah, I think we will see infestors used a lot more in all matchups here soon. I really wish they would put back in the projectile for the fungal growth like they had for PTR at one point or at least make it easier to see what is fungaled and what isn't. It's too hard to see on units like Stalkers but on Roaches it's covers too much of the unit model.
Casters should be really, really strong. The infestor is just that, and it's one of the most fun units as a zerg player to use.
If terran players really cannot solve infestors, buff their own caster units: ghosts (snipe buff?) and ravens. But nerfing infestor is not the way to go imo.
once all the terrans establish ghosts as a standard response to this (it's almost there but I still see games where top terrans don't try and answer the infestors T___T you can't beat infestor/broodlord with vikings alone), then we can take a better look and see if it is actually too strong (I doubt it, but it's possible). until then, everything is speculation
When I see 4 hellions burning 20-30 of my lings cause I have no creep in this sector I'm not complaining. When I see 5 tanks raping my roach army, I'm not complaining When I see tanks getting on terrain I can't reach (aka on STemple, Shakuras etc...) I'm not complaining When I see blue flames drop or banshee killing 20+ drones cause I was not 110% focused at the verry second their entered my base, I'm not complaining When I see an offensive 2 barrackd + 2-3 bunkers and it success cause I did some bad micro and they win 5mins in the game, I'm not complaining... ... etc...
So when I use infestors LATE game, a unit that cost more than it's share in gaz, that requires upgrade in order to not suck for a minute and require 2 other upgrade (the burrow and np) to be "fully used" and that only has 90hp for his cost (200gaz).... I better see no one complaining. Also... it is required to deal with protoss deathball.
On a side note: terran has the perfect answer to them:
1. Cloacked ghost Emp + Snipe = gg infestors 2. Tanks, if infestors get in tank ranges... infestors are dead period 3. Banshee (cloacked preferably) will own them if you're skipping mutalisk
and pretty much any units that can get to them will kill them in 2-3 hits max.
So complaining about infestors.... how easy do you want SC2 to be for terrans??
On July 05 2011 05:25 Volka wrote: Time for Terrans to re think their strategy I guess.
Are you sure they shouldn't just sit on teamliquid forums and whine for days on end like the zergs did when terrans told them to "rethink their strategies" a few months ago?
I have a lot of difficulty in dealing with infestors. Partly down to my poor unit control but also because as a T i'm just not at all sure what beats them
My practice partner always used to get a headache from the Destiny infestor/broodlord deathball. However, we found out that Ravens actually deny broodlord shots, so you can just throw a point defense drone and save your tanks. We're still kinda working on the infestor issue, but Broodlords are so expensive that once you catch them unable to fire, you can do some serious damage.
EDIT: Didn't know this was a thread made by a fanboy of Bomber looking for reasons as to why the obviously inferior player Destiny.
Does anyone else not know how vulnerable infestor tech is to drop harass? As soon as Bomber saw infestors, he believed idra's reasoning against infestors. They have poor aggressive potential, so you can simply mass expand without any fear. However, it's important to realize that Infestors are great at stalling pushes. The problem with deathballs as Zerg is that you can't really remax quick enough. With Infestor's stalling power, you can easily buy yourself time. So frontal pushes are a no-no. A single infestor is downright incapable of handling a drop, and you need a lot of infestors to handle deathball pushes. If you've seen MMA play, his style is perfectly suited to dealing with this infestor style. Pushing timidly with tanks and marines at the front while dropping Zerg's main and natural. Zerg has to be perfect with his infestors to be able to handle all of those different attacks.
I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
The days when Terran can just walk a 200/200 max army into the Zerg base and win is over. In BW, late game Terrans had to deal with Lurkers, Defiler, and Ultralisks, which are just as devastating and "imba" as Infestor Broodlord. The way Terrans won in BW is by constantly harassing and dropping Zerg expansions, and winning through attrition. It made for exciting games that tested both players' multitasking abilities to the extreme. SC2 should be like this.
The problem is that infestor is a great unit to seal your advantage, and it seems terran don't like not being able to come back from stupid situations just because we have a good defensive unit. :/
At equal condition, infestor vs ghost is fair. You need to stop send all your ghost at once to prevent them being fungaled tho..
On July 05 2011 05:41 Uhh Negative wrote: Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though.
Most Zerg armies have trouble getting a lot of gas and Infestors require quite a bit. They need multiple bases and some commitment along with good control. The way I have seen players fight Fungal is by unit spread. The same way one would react to Banelings. Select used this strategy against CatZ yesterday during the EG Masters Cup. He constantly spread out his units to minimize the effectiveness of CatZ Fungals against his marines and tanks.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I use them as example because they are the ones using this style. What I want to know is why is it that top-notch zergs(aside from IdrA who never changes) don't do this more often, and why is it that this style worked so well versus Bomber, when it "shouldn't" have worked so well if people don't do it more often.
Also, Dimaga is a good example of Zerg that uses this style, although not as consistently as these guys.
On July 05 2011 05:41 Uhh Negative wrote: Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I use them as example because they are the ones using this style. What I want to know is why is it that top-notch zergs(aside from IdrA who never changes) don't do this more often, and why is it that this style worked so well versus Bomber, when it "shouldn't" have worked so well if people don't do it more often.
Also, Dimaga is a good example of Zerg that uses this style, although not as consistently as these guys.
That work against Bomber because Bomber was lazy. Drop play > Mutaless Zerg.
On July 05 2011 05:41 Uhh Negative wrote: Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though.
On July 05 2011 05:41 Uhh Negative wrote: Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though.
On July 05 2011 05:30 Mr. Nefarious wrote: The idea that the infestor is OP is a joke. Forcefield has been negating micro since the beta, is tier 1.5, costs a ton less and is part of at least 80% of toss armies. The infestor was buffed since Zerg win rates were atrocious against the deathball and mass mech. As a diamond zerg I've lost quite a few games using infestor play; mainly against HT, ghost, siege tanks and mass air. There are plenty of counters to infestor play as long as you don't pack all of your units into a tiny area. Dealing with infestor is very similar to dealing with storm except you have a much bigger target for EMP/Feedback. Personally I feel infestor play is more dangerous than HT play, if your infestors get Feedbacked/EMP'd/Killed it's instant GG. When you dump all that gas into infestors the rest of the already sad Zerg army becomes a complete rollover if the infestors are not effective.
THIS
Absolutely not worth a post.
I don't know if this discussion can possibly be fruitful on TL. The Zerg bias is strong in this place ^^) I don't really know what to think about infestors - they're perfectly fine as an alternative to mutalisks (infestor-ling-bling is about even with muta-ling-blling) but the brood-infestor combo feels nearly unbeatable. Most of these discussions just end up with Zerg players yelling "adapt and get ghosts", while it isn't really as simple. It's incredibly hard to EMP all the infestors and snipe all the broodlords without lings+broodlings overrunning your bio force that cannot be supported by siege tanks anymore.
It doesn't really bother me too much, as games rarely progress that far and when they do, I'd usually feel behind as terran regardless of whether they go brood-infestor or make the brood --> ultra transition. 1800+ masters EU
Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only 6 snipes to kill broodlord and 12 to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
Players just need time to adapt if this becomes the zerg standard. Terrans will just have to spread units more and harass the hell out of zerg.
Bomber never made ravens. Hunter Seeker missle is quite good versus clumped up groups of low health units (range is a problem in fungal vs seeker). Never made cloak banshees to harass with and only dropped like 3 nukes the whole game. His play was terrible against infestors. Late game terran needs to be creative and do more harass.
On July 05 2011 05:41 Uhh Negative wrote: Might want to spoiler the parts about Destiny v Bomber. I hadn't watched the games yet but they are kind of ruined now. Not a big deal though.
Bomber was really, really unresponsive to Destiny's shenanigans. I don't think he made one ghost the whole game and got contained really, really hard.
you didn't watch game 1, did you...?
He didn't drop him at all. Really seemed like the lag was getting to him.
I do agree with the OP though.. the Infestor is probably the best unit in the game. It still has serious weaknesses that the Terran can exploit though.
The larvae mechanic gives zerg a nearly unbeatable advantage in the lategame regardless of how good Infestors are. My advice to Terran players having trouble with the composition would be to not let the game get to that point. Even if that means you have to throw down two barracks on 11 supply.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
On July 05 2011 05:30 Mr. Nefarious wrote: The idea that the infestor is OP is a joke. Forcefield has been negating micro since the beta, is tier 1.5, costs a ton less and is part of at least 80% of toss armies. The infestor was buffed since Zerg win rates were atrocious against the deathball and mass mech. As a diamond zerg I've lost quite a few games using infestor play; mainly against HT, ghost, siege tanks and mass air. There are plenty of counters to infestor play as long as you don't pack all of your units into a tiny area. Dealing with infestor is very similar to dealing with storm except you have a much bigger target for EMP/Feedback. Personally I feel infestor play is more dangerous than HT play, if your infestors get Feedbacked/EMP'd/Killed it's instant GG. When you dump all that gas into infestors the rest of the already sad Zerg army becomes a complete rollover if the infestors are not effective.
THIS
Absolutely not worth a post.
I don't know if this discussion can possibly be fruitful on TL. The Zerg bias is strong in this place ^^) I don't really know what to think about infestors - they're perfectly fine as an alternative to mutalisks (infestor-ling-bling is about even with muta-ling-blling) but the brood-infestor combo feels nearly unbeatable. Most of these discussions just end up with Zerg players yelling "adapt and get ghosts", while it isn't really as simple. It's incredibly hard to EMP all the infestors and snipe all the broodlords without lings+broodlings overrunning your bio force that cannot be supported by siege tanks anymore.
It doesn't really bother me too much, as games rarely progress that far and when they do, I'd usually feel behind as terran regardless of whether they go brood-infestor or make the brood --> ultra transition. 1800+ masters EU
I don't think any zerg players would say that controlling ghosts is easy, most just say that it's necessary
I find that the people who really shut down Infestor play are the people who do the following:
1. They spread out their units, and always appear to make an effort to do so. 2. They can control multiple hot-key groups of the same unit type to spread large groups efficiently. 3. They focus fire Infestors at range with appropriate units.
When people do this, and when more people respect Infestors to the point where they follow suit, I think everyone will see how hard Infestors can be shut down. They are a great unit, but with no energy, or low-bulk fungals, they are extremely inefficient.
The people I see crying about Infestors most often are the Terrans who mass a heap of bio, throw it in one control group and expect it to kill everything without micro. I've seen pro players shut down Infestor so hard it's painful to watch; but I've also seen pro players use Infestors incredibly well.
All comes down to how you deal with the unit. The points above are a good start in my opinion.
EDIT: I feel I should also point out how freaking hard it is for a Zerg to support mass Infestor and mass Brood Lord. Yes, it's strong but it's difficult to achieve.
On July 05 2011 05:58 Swad1000 wrote: Players just need time to adapt if this becomes the zerg standard. Terrans will just have to spread units more and harass the hell out of zerg.
Bomber never made ravens. Hunter Seeker missle is quite good versus clumped up groups of low health units (range is a problem in fungal vs seeker). Never made cloak banshees to harass with and only dropped like 3 nukes the whole game. His play was terrible against infestors. Late game terran needs to be creative and do more harass.
I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
Strategy-wise, maybe Terrans should start using ravens against them. I think autoturrets would be pretty effective because it would be a waste to fungal an autoturret, considering they can't move anyway and die on their own. HSM is underused in general and might be pretty good at killing infestors (idk how much damage it does.)
infestor ling is my favorite strat in ZvP because there is no strong counter to massive amounts of zerglings when you have infestor support. I've actually found that phoenix openings are pretty strong because you won't have enough AA or enough gas to also support hydras but I usually get speedlings, followed by +1 then infestors and hydras right after. I'll get about 3-5 infestors followed by only hydras and zerglings with a transition into spire for corrupters. The 3-5 infestors are for 3 fungals to kill sentry balls, which counter zerglings hard. Also the hydras that follow, are for the stalkers and the zealots as you can fungal the zealots and the hydras just destroy them.
HOWEVER in ZvT I don't use ling/infestor due to blue flame hellions. Even if you add in carapace upgrades the blue flames just utterly destroy you and you can't do much until you get fungal and in that time you can lose a lot of drones and lings. ZvT i've been opting more for roach/baneling drops against the more common marine/tank but I will go roach/infestor if they decide to go heavy mech. The problem is that drop play is SO effective against mass zerg ground which is why I've been implementing mutalisks instead of infestors and I just don't find infestors cost efficient when dealing with drops. Late game I always go broodlord/infestor because, it's just the best. There is NOTHING else zerg has late game that can stop 200/200 armies, without these two units being the way they are, ZvT/ZvP would simply be unfair.
Also I ran into a very interesting strategy the other day, I was able to crush it but it got me thinking. My terran opponent went for late game 3/0 (armor upgrades) mass thor. The point was that the mass armor upgrades on thors make it EXTREMELY difficult to fight with roaches and even if you NP them, the amount of armor they have makes it very difficult for the NP thor to kill other thors. Also you use your barracks for mostly ghosts to counter infestors which are the ONLY counter to thors in the mid-game (sorry but roaches don't cut it against thors with maxed armor upgrades). This thor/ghost style was very cute but also interesting, it seemed like it would beat any unit composition if you weren't prepared for it. I played him in a bo3, the first game I won and he did a normal marine/tank but on game 2 he surprised me with the strat and beat me. Game 3 I scouted the mass factories and the armory and did overseer contaminate harass while building a large roach/infestor army with NP. I was able to take the bo3 but only because I did such a great job of denying his 3rd base and I knew if he had a 3rd I'd probably be dead. I think terrans need to get innovative like this if they wish to succeed against zergs who have been trying to be innovative since beta.
in my opinion there are 2 overpowered units in the game, one more so than the other, however, the race that each respective unit belongs to is not overpowered in and of itself for reasons I will present shortly.
these 2 units are the infestor and colossus, and I would argue that the infestor is the more powerful unit, I have no reason to say they are overpowered other than my observations, and will present no such reason, this is simply an opinion, no more, no less.
however, as I mentioned earlier, zerg and protoss are not more powerful than terran, even though they have these "overpowered" units, the reason for this is because almost every other unit in the zerg and protoss arsenal is underpowered (again, opinion).
the zerg tier 2 army is hopelessly weak, with the exception of infestors, and so is the protoss tier 2 army (sentries can make or break battles though and I repeat, opinion) this is weighed up by their very powerful support units instead, as for terran, MMM is by far the most powerful "single target" army i.e. army where there is no AOE capabilities and is balanced by having much weaker splash choices, the only "good" splash choice for terran is the siege tank (the other terran splash is PF, nuke, EMP , thor AA, seeker missile, all of these are situational patheticly underused or in the case of PF, static defense), while zerg have banelings, fungal growth and ultralisks all being excellent damage dealers. protoss have colossus, High Templar and archon all being good damage dealers too.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
stopping micro with fungal isn't imba, you can forcefield and storm for the same effect and actually storm does more damage and you can trap a bigger army with forcefields than you can with multiple fungals.
When new style is developed it shouldn't be called imba from the bat. I think it's time for T and P to get creative instead relying on few robust units to carry them over. So many terrans are used to make only marines and tanks and expect to counter every combination of Zerg army. I don't know if Infestor is too good, I am too big of a noob for that, what I do know is, few games won in some tournaments, don't make for a good statistic pool to reach such conclusion. I haven't seen any Zerg winning any tournament for some time.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build.
With the projectile, you could dodge it with stim marine way too easily.
the problem with this strat is especially on cross positions on big map. zerg gets their creep spread perfectly u basically have to spend 10 minutes slow pushing to their base. if you unsiege they will see you and just fungal your army to death. that or you can save up like 10 scans and kill all the creep tumors and have no econ left...
Early game zerg is relatively weak, so late game zerg must be relatively strong. If you weaken zerg late game, you must also strengthen zerg early game, or the win-lose ratio of the race will drop dead.
So when people ask "how can i stop infestor", well, the answer is, you try your best, like emp, but if you still lose more than you win, think about how often you win early with mmm.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
On July 05 2011 06:19 mols0n wrote: the problem with this strat is especially on cross positions on big map. zerg gets their creep spread perfectly u basically have to spend 10 minutes slow pushing to their base. if you unsiege they will see you and just fungal your army to death. that or you can save up like 10 scans and kill all the creep tumors and have no econ left...
Against infestors getting a raven is ok, anyway you want on close pos (/w a 2b strat), either some ghosts or a bit more tanks, so no reactor port and you can afford a raven. Which is not that bad if he pools energy in a mid game fight (3/4 turrets can create choke points, always funny) but never research hsm, if your raven is NP... you can't describe it.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roaches or lings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it.
I think even Morrow once said that terran has no good counter to this strat. Another problem is infestor broodlord=no movement at all. NO blink, NO rush forward. It is even worse than forcefield because there is a lot of chance to make mistakes with ff if you miss a single block and leave an opening they can still rush you. Not against broodlord/infestor tho, fungal+broodling makes any ground army cringe. I still remember a game between tarson and catz. Tarzon played beautifully he was up 3 base against catz 2 with about 150 food versus 90 then catz made broodlord infestor and gg from tarson soon came after.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
It takes 2 if they're at the same time 3 if from the same ghost or not simultaneous. 1 hp regen.
yea I know this but it CAN and DOES take 2 snipes to kill an infestor when this guy is saying there is no way possible for it to take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. Just saying that it is possible
It's kind of funny we haven't seen more balance whine about infestors before this, Terrans were complaining that Protosses were able to "convert gas into pure damage" with High Templars in a late game situation when they had the amulet upgraded, but the way I see it, infestors are surely much stronger. A late game Zerg will be on multiple bases and as such will be able to make lots more infestors than a Protoss could high templars versus Terran. Blizzard nerfed high templars in response to Terrans being unable to deal with them by removing their energy upgrade, I wonder if they would do the same with infestors. Overall, I think that infestors are balanced and I hope that Blizzard doesn't nerf them, I think Terran players will just have to be creative this time to solve their problem.
p.s direct warp-in is not a good arguement to differentiate high templars and infestors, on a large map infestors will spawn with energy for 1 fungal each anyway.
I don't want to highjack this thread or move too far away from the topic, but I dislike the fact that we have discuss the strength of "mass caster strategies".
I find it fun to use casters in my matches since they require micro and reward good micro abilities so that I, as a former WC3 player, like using spell casters. But to me it seems that casters are way too massable compared to SC1.
In BW casters were a mere support unit that helped you in battles and increased the power of your core army. Defilers cast Dark Swarm so your army can rush into tank lines, HTs cast storm so that your gateway units clean up the rest of your enemies, Arbiters temporarily disable a part of your enemy army and Vessels irradiate enemy key units or fire EMPs.
All these units and abilities were powerful and had huge impacts on the outcome of battles, but they were never the core of your army. it still came down to having enough fighting units to crush your opponent. However in SC2 casters are not support units that give you an edge over your opponent they are staple units that define your army. If I play Toss, I have to get HTs to win against Terran when he has too many vikings. And I do not only get 2 to 4 HTs, no I often get 6 or 8 and storm the hell out of Terran. They are pivotal in winning battles and so is the ghost for Terrans. Mass infestors is the same story. I don't get 2 or 3 of them, I get a shit ton and fungal everything to death. And my opponent has to get a shit ton of HTs or Ghosts to counter that.
One could say: But it is interesting to have those dynamics in the game! caster versus caster battles. Well, that is true, but the downside is huge: casters are still fragile and the number one target for your enemy. If I catch a Zerg out of position and Feedback his Infestors, he loses. If I kill Ghosts before they EMP my templars, I crush the Terran. But Gods forbid if the terran gets off 2 money EMPs and disables my HTs... Well, then I can watch my army disappear in a few seconds thanks to crappy gateway units and powerful stimmed Marauders.
The caster centric play creates too much volatility imo. They are too important for your army if you get many of them. they become the core army and losing them results in a huge defeat.
I'm a Zerg player sick of being called overpowered for using infestors abilities to their full extent, and having no answer to the "how do i deal with it?" question.
I've been playing protoss forever. I'm sick of being called op for using anything. The worst part is that it's accepted.
On July 05 2011 06:26 xbankx wrote: There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roahces orlings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it.
on big maps this comp can be handled, just kill his expo/tech /w drops. It's hard to do, but your opponent have a tough time too, and psychologically being ou multitasked is hard to deal with. The problem is on a map like metalo, where the Z just sit on his gold... Then i feel like a mech/ghost could be a good response, but it suppose to go mech first hand, and it's quite silly sometimes, and most T players (myself inculding) have like 0 xp of mech...
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only like 3-4 snipes to kill broodlord and maybe 1 more to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
On July 05 2011 05:49 Eleaven wrote: Ghosts are super effective. 2 snipes = dead infestor 1 money emp = 3-5 infestors neutered for the duration of the battle.
The standard response to "u only won cos infestor op" should be "spread your units and get ghosts"
Okay let's just get this straight.
It takes 3 snipes, not 2, to kill an infestor. It takes 6 snipes, not 3-4, to kill a broodlord. It takes 12, and sure as fucking hell not 4-5, to kill an ultralisk.
Actually, it can take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. So yea...
It takes 2 if they're at the same time 3 if from the same ghost or not simultaneous. 1 hp regen.
yea I know this but it CAN and DOES take 2 snipes to kill an infestor when this guy is saying there is no way possible for it to take 2 snipes to kill an infestor. Just saying that it is possible
It's far more likely they aren't going to be simultaneous. You're saying a similar outlandish proposal that it only takes 2 at any given point (taking the same liberties as you did from his post). You could've easily said what I did and been right.
I just find it hilarious how the Infestor was buffed to help Zerg out against Protoss deathballs; however, it turned out to be a lot more significant in ZvT and ZvZ, while Zergs found other ways to win in ZvP. Another funny thing is the fact that the "buff" actually made Infestors weaker against Blink Stalkers, which is all kinds of hilarious, considering Zergs are dying to Blink pushes left and right. Oh Blizzard, your balancing efforts will never cease to amuse.
To be honest, I liked the old Fungal more. I feel like it allowed for more interesting gameplay and skillfull execution, as opposed to the current "F-click for massive damage".
In the end though, I do want Zerg to be overpowered, I want Zerg players to dominate more skilled opponents of other races, just because they play Zerg. It really needs to happen, so that the Zerg players can get over their retarded superiority complex, and so we don't have to suffer through 30 pages of whining in an LR thread whenever Idra or Nestea lose.
People just QQ because they lose games. But really they're just to lazy or stupid to rethink their strats. For example, In ZvP, infestors are dominant against typical colossus death ball but Protoss players still insist on ramming their heads against a wall with that build against infestors. The answers are usually very obvious. But players are waaay too stubborn. Instead of changing their play to fit the situation, they call it imbalanced. And that is the worst part of this whole community.
On July 05 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Infestor/sling/(tier3) is like what mech was some time ago. It seems to be imbalanced, but when you learn to adjust to play against it (ghosts), you will be able to counter it as just "another strategy".
The snipe is really powerful against ultras and blords, because it takes only 6 snipes to kill broodlord and 12 to kill ultralisk. And ghosts can shoot without energy too, so unlike infestors, they are still almost useful without energy.
And the nuke.. When you are in lategame against Z, you could propably destroy 1 base full(~18) of drones with one nuke, because the Z has to check every one of his bases.
If there's one thing that the starcraft community needs to learn is when something is OP or hard to deal with. For months ZvP felt impossible while zerg was ONLY going roach/hydra/corrupter. As soon as zergs began using bane drops, infestors, mutas, etc... the match up swung in favor of zerg.
These are developments in the metagame that will happen throughout the history of SC2. Players need to stop blaming "imbalance" and begin looking beyond the obvious to deal with problems.
My teammates start to playing like this and i started to encounter it in ladder the way i think to beat it is with fast upgrades and Marine Medivac All-around.With faster upgrades you can battle zergling/baneling in the early/mid game easyer and in the late game in tranistion in to mech 5 factories when those infestors start to mass i transition to mech cuz my multitask isn't so great like MMA or Bombers to stick with MMM whole game.
On July 05 2011 06:26 xbankx wrote: There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roahces orlings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it.
on big maps this comp can be handled, just kill his expo/tech /w drops. It's hard to do, but your opponent have a tough time too, and psychologically being ou multitasked is hard to deal with. The problem is on a map like metalo, where the Z just sit on his gold... Then i feel like a mech/ghost could be a good response, but it suppose to go mech first hand, and it's quite silly sometimes, and most T players (myself inculding) have like 0 xp of mech...
mech is terrible. Broods already counter most mech and infestor+neutral parasite is just there to stick in in your face.
Drop play is the counter to infestors and infestor/BL. Just aggressively dropping everywhere (and making sure to split your marines when they come out of the medivac) means that he has to leave a good chunk of forces at each base, lest he lose everything. That, ghosts, and split vikings are the counter to infestor+BL, of course, you could always end the game before the Zerg gets 7-8 bases too.
Terrans are still winning everything in GSL and foreign, so I don't think it's time to start whining about imbalance yet.
On July 05 2011 06:35 Severus_ wrote: My teammates start to playing like this and i started to encounter it in ladder the way i think to beat it is with fast upgrades and Marine Medivac All-around.With faster upgrades you can battle zergling/baneling in the early/mid game easyer and in the late game in tranistion in to mech 5 factories when those infestors start to mass i transition to mech cuz my multitask isn't so great like MMA or Bombers to stick with MMM whole game.
Bomber and MMA don't play MMM in tvz. They use a common tank/marine/medivac comp, or just marines for bomber :D
On July 05 2011 06:26 xbankx wrote: There is no way for terran to beat infestor/broodlord unless terran has a huge advantage over zerg already(like 80 supply versus a maax 200 food) or zerg making a mistake. Same with toss, the only time I seen toss beat this is when zerg leave their broodlords unprotect if zergs start learning that if they put roahces orlings under the broods then there is no way toss can beat this either.
Ghost is decent, but you need a lot of them which means a lot of techlab barracsk which is not viable in standard TvZ.. Snipe is questionable at best you need like 5-6 snipes to kill a single broodlord and I think 2-3 to kill a infestor and if they get fungaled you just plain lose...
You know the game is broken if you can only way if your opponenets plays wrong and there is nothing you can do about it.
on big maps this comp can be handled, just kill his expo/tech /w drops. It's hard to do, but your opponent have a tough time too, and psychologically being ou multitasked is hard to deal with. The problem is on a map like metalo, where the Z just sit on his gold... Then i feel like a mech/ghost could be a good response, but it suppose to go mech first hand, and it's quite silly sometimes, and most T players (myself inculding) have like 0 xp of mech...
mech is terrible. Broods already counter most mech and infestor+neutral parasite is just there to stick in in your face.
thor/hellion /w good upgrades are ok vs blords. and i say adding ghost in your mech army. The problem is that you can't afford to trade because there is 50 roaches in your base one minute later T_T. But it's definitely viable atm, cause almost all Z players have 0 xp vs mech too :D so you can do weird all ins/or just good timing attacks (i'm pretty sure that attacking while the Z is teching to hive on a 3b mech play is good)
The infestor is indeed a strong and versatile unit, but I think that all the splash units from every race have been considered OP at various times. This is mostly a result of unit pathing and clumping.
In regards to the bomber/destiny match, in the first gsme bomber wasn't expecting mass infestor - he had ghosts and vikings ready for brood lords instead. As a result, he didn't have quite enough ghosts to EMP all the infestors, but how often do you see 20+ infestors? So I would say that destiny's funky build probably threw him off quite a bit in that match.
I think that for terrans to beat mass infestor, and infestor/broodlord, they need to be hitting the zerg in multiple locations at once. Just as a tank/marine/medivac army is difficult to take head on using a mutalisk army, the infestor/brood lord army is difficult to take on using the tank/marine army. One key difference is that while tanks or collosus deal their massive long range splash automatically, infestors need to cast their spells manually. I've had games where I was distracted by a drop, then lost 5+ infestors as my opponent moved his army up. I think cloak banshees might be good, they can do a lot of damage and are troublesome to take down using infestors. I wonder if reapers might be useful, they are mobile and excel vs light and buildings. Ravens are another possibility, auto-turrets are pretty decent renewable resource, hunter seeker can be distracting/powerful if combined with multiple attacks, and burrow shenanigans can be reduced with the vision.
On July 05 2011 06:36 Skwid1g wrote: Drop play is the counter to infestors and infestor/BL. Just aggressively dropping everywhere (and making sure to split your marines when they come out of the medivac) means that he has to leave a good chunk of forces at each base, lest he lose everything. That, ghosts, and split vikings are the counter to infestor+BL, of course, you could always end the game before the Zerg gets 7-8 bases too.
Terrans are still winning everything foreign and abroad, so I don't think it's time to start whining about imbalance yet.
Yea if it is truely 7-8 bases then it wouldnt matter because like you said don't let game get there. that is reasonable. But I seen zerg player go off this off 3 bases which is wrong. Drop play is fine but if zerg is already super damage but noramlly he should have a bunch of lings due to all the excess minerals and should clear up drops with easy. Corruptors can also make it so that everytime terran drops, your dropship won't get away.
well basically, and yes I know nobody wants to hear it this way, Infestor are totally OP atm in COMBINATION with Broodlords (which is the "real" OP unit here, dps is simply too high). Hope it will be changing with the next patch..I really do.
I feel that you have to respect infestors the same way you are forced to respect siege tanks and colossus/ff. If I walk a ball of units into a siege tank line, they will all die.
In ZvZ we are still faced with mass infestors in pretty much every macro game, and you can beat them with runbys and drops to spread them out, and flanks to waste energy and gain extra area. or as many players do, just make more infestors than the other guy, but that's a pretty unstable way of doing it.
imba? I don't know. Definitely powerful. To me it feels like an almost exact role reversal of when zerg just could not beat protoss with roach hydra because of forcefield and the matchup felt impossible.
I like how many zergs is just like "just make alot of ghosts and snipe/emp!!". First of all, you need every single drop of gas for medivacs, tanks and upgrades first of all. And to mass ghosts you need to make a bunch of tech labs and that will cost you money, more gas and alot of production time from your barracks. As you know, we can't just mass units by pressing S > unit hotkey.
okay this may be a bit terran biased but thats because i play terran and i have no idea what the state of PvZ so i cant speak for P too but..
when i think of a unit that
rapes light, does huge dps vs armoured can reveal clocked units moves pretty damn quickly for a caster can mind control my shit from a relatively safe distance including the so called hard counters can spam 0 supply higher dps marines that rape expos move underground really quickly
i think to myself wtf should i build to counter this?
yes they can be countered with ghosts. but in my own experience i very rarely can get then close enough to do much damage without running into the inevitable swarm of lings/blings that stand between infestors. its easy to say make ghosts but another thing to put it into practice for the average player with below pro standard micro. on top of that, spend a shit load of gas to get the sufficient number of them to make any difference at the sacrifice of tanks/ upgrades / medivacs. saying make ghosts im sorry to say is pure theorycraft imho
im sorry but i dont see how i should spread my shit, in case of banelings + fungal, while microing my ghosts to snipe/emp while placing my tanks in the right place while i siege at the right time while while i then stim and micro marines all at once while my opponent a+moves bling and lings selects infestors and spams the spell relevant to the situation.
the truth is, its easy to say "look at what jinro did at mlg, just do that." but its unrealistic.
my honest opinion is that of all the casters, the infestor is far more cost efficient. It is an excellent addition to any zerg composition and a good damage dealer against all units of all races, it has virtually zero risk factor imho. you have nothing to lose by building them. if i make ghosts for example in a tvz, i make them to counter mainly infestors or to something more cost efficient than ghosts. if a zerg makes infestors in a tvz its basically to have as a good all round unit to do well against basically everything i can throw at it. neural parasite makes having t3 units a gamble late game, because the best best dps dealers will be targeted to add to the zergs t3 dps.
is it impossible to win against them? by all means no. but ive found that you have to be way more alert and focused and make less mistakes. send in cloaked ghosts to snipe infestors wherever he has no detection, harass (though zergs have learned to keep an infestor attheir base to justfungal drops) while keeping better econo and production. Its really tough going into late game with infestors mixed in to any zerg composition for terran to keep up. Well for me anyway
On July 05 2011 05:36 Probe1 wrote: What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome.
Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with.
On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote: Caster are OP, all of them. That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_-
Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes.
I prefer eating a plague instead of a fungal growth. What Blizzard basicly did was to mix plague with ensnare and buff it a bit. IMO units should either be able to move when being fungaled (only they move slower) or they should be brought down to 1 hp.
You see, although nearly every single zerg on here say that Ghosts are the obvious counter to infestors and tier 3 play, their cost is rather absurd to have to sacrifice so many marines/tanks for, not to mention any medivacs that need to heal the damage that the infestors whom still have energy, wrought.
All in all, getting ghosts and using them well is a risky effort IMO because it is not hard to just be overrun by zerglings due to your reduced army count. I think 3 bases is a bare minimum for using ghosts at all in this matchup just because of their cost. ~1500 master
On July 05 2011 05:36 Probe1 wrote: What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome.
Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with.
On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote: Caster are OP, all of them. That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_-
Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes.
I prefer eating a plague instead of a fungal growth. What Blizzard basicly did was to mix plague with ensnare and buff it a bit. IMO units should either be able to move when being fungaled (only they move slower) or they should be brought down to 1 hp.
with plague, you can run and retreat to the safety of tanks. Fungal=gg, it is litterally the fastest way to lose a game. Second only to getting forcedfield out of or stuck inside the base from toss.
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build.
With the projectile, you could dodge it with stim marine way too easily.
yeah god forbid we should use micro to minimize damage. wtf? why is it them possible to micro out of storms? silly thing to say really. but typical nonetheless
Early game zerg is relatively weak, so late game zerg must be relatively strong. If you weaken zerg late game, you must also strengthen zerg early game, or the win-lose ratio of the race will drop dead.
So when people ask "how can i stop infestor", well, the answer is, you try your best, like emp, but if you still lose more than you win, think about how often you win early with mmm.
i dont agree with this. i honestly think the game should be so that all 3 races are balanced at every stage of the game. what you are basically implying is that go for MMM timing push every game to win or lose. thats a really stupid way to play a potentially awesome game. no fun in doing the same shit every game or dying
On July 05 2011 05:36 Probe1 wrote: What's so terrible about having to make ghosts? I see a lot of successful infestor play and a lot of terrible responses to it. Fungal is as good of a spell as storm is and infested terrans are only as useful as the situation. If you complain about having 4 infestors dump Infested Terrans into your mineral line, maybe you should consider building a missile turret and a PF. The most common response I hear when late game DT or drop play is utilized against zerg is "Stop being so greedy and build a spore and spine at your expos". Terran can do the same. Better, in fact- PFs and Missile Turrets are freaking awesome.
Terran just needs to rethink what to respond to mass infestor with.
On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote: Caster are OP, all of them. That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_-
Can you imagine plague on 40 marines at once? ooh deeear god yes.
I prefer eating a plague instead of a fungal growth. What Blizzard basicly did was to mix plague with ensnare and buff it a bit. IMO units should either be able to move when being fungaled (only they move slower) or they should be brought down to 1 hp.
with plague, you can run and retreat to the safety of tanks. Fungal=gg, it is litterally the fastest way to lose a game. Second only to getting forcedfield out of or stuck inside the base from toss.
I don't know, take for example tvp bw, no marines.
Do you guys think it's possible for a marineless ghost based strategy to be viable?
On July 05 2011 06:07 Gfire wrote: I think one issue with infestors, not necessarily an imbalance, is that you cannot micro out of fungal growth. You have to spread your units and emp preemptively, unlike storm where you can move out from under it. But it's impossible to know where it is going to be until it's too late, which might not be imbalanced but it lessens possible micro which isn't very fun.
I think it would be cool if it was a projectile, then you could dodge it. I think they tried that in some PTR, I don't recall why they switched it back, everyone was complaining it was too weak or something. They could buff it's duration (with same DPS,) to balance that out I guess.
I'd love the projectile thing too, but people said infestor was too weak. Bullshit IMO, it was perfectly fine. It even opened the possibility of mutas on ZvZ as a non-cheesy stable build.
With the projectile, you could dodge it with stim marine way too easily.
yeah god forbid we should use micro to minimize damage. wtf? why is it them possible to micro out of storms? silly thing to say really. but typical nonetheless
It's not my words dude. It' why blizzard remove the projectile. And because zerg was in trouble, buffing infestor but making them too hard to use would have result in noone using them like before the patch.
Mr Bitter did not come up with that build, tons of people were using it before he even made it out of diamond.
Other than that, ghosts are the counter to Zerg T3. Snipe for broodlords/ultras, EMP for infestors. Very strong and underused units, so I don't feel that infestors are OP at all.
On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote: Caster are OP, all of them. That's why the game is good.
People need to stop think about that. I can't imagine what people would say if we still had Defilers, old Templar or Science Vessel. -_-
I don't 100% agree with the first part.
I do 100% agree with the second part.
Casters are good, they require micro to use, and you should be rewarded by using them. But if you split well, EMP well, or just straight up outmicro and kill the caster, you're much father in the lead.
The game is balenced at the moment, nothing needs to change.
Infestors are great units for zerg but like alot of zerg units they are very fragile. Terrans can easily take advantage of a zerg getting infestors with a lot of drops, sending single cloaked banshees in to was energy and in army battle the obvious answer is the ghost to EMP and snipe (the ghost is also very good at killing broodlords and ultras with snipe) You can also spread your bio army to avoid it all getting fungaled.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I like the part where you said "Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style"
These three are some of the most imaganitive zerg players there are. Have you ever seen any of them play?
Here let me help you, this is Destiny vs Bomber, a very good korean pro player. It's a best of 3, Destiny uses a lot of infestors and hive tech in each game. You can not only see how to make infestors work, but also for all the terrans out there you can see how to win against them
So many people forget that this game is (hopefully) designed for the highest tier players. If the infestor is OP at our skill level (very doubtful) but fine in high level play, that's how it should stay. When I was playing Z in gold league I thought zealots and colossus were OP however at a high level they've been fairly balanced.
On July 05 2011 07:03 iamho wrote: I strongly believe zerg tier 3 should be weakened while t2 is strengthened. Its no fun to auto-lose once you get to a certain point in the game.
I concur. When zerg has broodlord/corruptor/infestor compo it is basically over. TvZ is all about killing the shit out of the zerg before he reaches his final boss units.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Konsume wrote: When I see 4 hellions burning 20-30 of my lings cause I have no creep in this sector I'm not complaining. When I see 5 tanks raping my roach army, I'm not complaining When I see tanks getting on terrain I can't reach (aka on STemple, Shakuras etc...) I'm not complaining When I see blue flames drop or banshee killing 20+ drones cause I was not 110% focused at the verry second their entered my base, I'm not complaining When I see an offensive 2 barrackd + 2-3 bunkers and it success cause I did some bad micro and they win 5mins in the game, I'm not complaining... ... etc...
So when I use infestors LATE game, a unit that cost more than it's share in gaz, that requires upgrade in order to not suck for a minute and require 2 other upgrade (the burrow and np) to be "fully used" and that only has 90hp for his cost (200gaz).... I better see no one complaining. Also... it is required to deal with protoss deathball.
On a side note: terran has the perfect answer to them:
1. Cloacked ghost Emp + Snipe = gg infestors 2. Tanks, if infestors get in tank ranges... infestors are dead period 3. Banshee (cloacked preferably) will own them if you're skipping mutalisk
and pretty much any units that can get to them will kill them in 2-3 hits max.
So complaining about infestors.... how easy do you want SC2 to be for terrans??
[QUOTE]On July 05 2011 05:45 Konsume wrote: When I see 4 hellions burning 20-30 of my lings cause I have no creep in this sector I'm not complaining. When I see 5 tanks raping my roach army, I'm not complaining When I see tanks getting on terrain I can't reach (aka on STemple, Shakuras etc...) I'm not complaining When I see blue flames drop or banshee killing 20+ drones cause I was not 110% focused at the verry second their entered my base, I'm not complaining When I see an offensive 2 barrackd + 2-3 bunkers and it success cause I did some bad micro and they win 5mins in the game, I'm not complaining... ...
I think TvZ is at its best when Terrans answer for the Zerg army is position and in battle micro. FG rooting eliminates this and I think it's a mistake.
IMO unit splitting (i.e. micro) can reduce the effectiveness of infestors by a huge margin. Let's see a few weeks of Terrans NOT running clumped up marine balls unti infestors and then reevaluate the infestor.
On July 05 2011 06:59 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: The game is balenced at the moment, nothing needs to change.
Infestors are great units for zerg but like alot of zerg units they are very fragile. Terrans can easily take advantage of a zerg getting infestors with a lot of drops, sending single cloaked banshees in to was energy and in army battle the obvious answer is the ghost to EMP and snipe (the ghost is also very good at killing broodlords and ultras with snipe) You can also spread your bio army to avoid it all getting fungaled.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I like the part where you said "Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style"
These three are some of the most imaganitive zerg players there are. Have you ever seen any of them play?
Here let me help you, this is Destiny vs Bomber, a very good korean pro player. It's a best of 3, Destiny uses a lot of infestors and hive tech in each game. You can not only see how to make infestors work, but also for all the terrans out there you can see how to win against them
Edit: i've just seen that theres a thread about the Destiny vs Bomber games already up, Here it is!
What does them being imaginative have anything to do with anything? You do realize my emphasis was on their accomplishments right? Of course they're all incredibly imaginative, but that doesn't mean that it's a practical style. What have they done to prove that this style actually works in high level play aside from 1 Bo3 that hardly counted for anything against a Korean who played poorly in high latency.
I think it should be handled just as NaDa described in his message from Korea: tanks, marines, vikings, a lot of positioning, and maybe a couple ghosts. Ideally, the zerg is dead before every getting to that point. People talk about "ghosts", but from what I've seen, they're not very good against the composition overall. Sniping broodlords is a guaranteed way to have your ghosts killed.
I think from watching Drewbie, Destiny's build is incredibly easy to counter. You just have to turtle as Terran and there's nothing he can do. since he'll be behind in bases the whole game. The game is the absolute most boring 1 hour snore fest, however.
This matchup would be a hell of a lot different if FG didn't deny movement, since that basically shuts down all of the "hard-counters" to zerg tier 3 (vikings, ghosts, mariners). And for everyone here that thinks it takes 2 snipes to kill an infestor or 5 snipes to kill a broodlord, you are wrong. It takes an extra snipe to kill most zerg units because they begin regenerating immediately after receiving damage.
The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
IMO FG can be countered with mass Medics and Ghost. In order to have that much Gas Terran shold go MM. Basically Marine Maruader with Mass Medics to heal Damage on MM and Ghosts to EMP Infestors. Banlings can be countered by Maruaders and Micro. + Show Spoiler +
I really hope I'm wrong though. The last thing we need is another Match up where MM is the only viable option.
This is slightly off topic and pure theory crafting but, when people say the soloution to zerg T3 is snipe, surely that means that if a zerg banks a certain amount of resources they can just remax t3 until the terran has no energy for ghosts?
On July 05 2011 07:15 Qlimax_UK wrote: The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
I've heard of ghosts. Hey its my avatar and its in my name. Why is it whenever I use them I lose then? Why can't I just mass ghosts to use in TvZ?
It's because they are too damn costly and drastically cut into production of marines and tanks, which actually kill the hoards of zerglings.
On July 05 2011 07:06 Werk wrote: oh my sweet jesus terran has to use ghosts? what on earth has the late game come to?
what you dont understand my zerg friend, is that in order to have any significant impact on a zerg using infestors, as a terran going ghosts means sacrificing tanks / medivacs which sadly are needed vs zerg. the problem is, if i go marine tank medivac ghost, and you go ling bling infestor only. i may have enough ghosts to take out your infestor, but no way in hell will i have enough tanks / medivacs to deal with the super speedy super cheap overwhelming numbers of lings and blings you will have. you will also have more than enough gas + larvae to remax with more infestor + ling + bling while i struggle to get anywhere near enough gas to do anything significant to retaliate with enough tanks + medivacs ghosts to defend your counter push.
1 more thing....
ghosts are a light unit, that cant stim. so vs baneling splash / well placed fungals they quite frankly suck
On July 05 2011 07:15 Qlimax_UK wrote: The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
But it's much easier to squeeze out some ghosts in TvP because you alreday have the tech labs for it. Going tech lab before reactor in TvZ is such a huge waste if you don't know for sure that you will face infestor/ling/broods and needs to mass ghosts.
On July 05 2011 07:15 Qlimax_UK wrote: The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
I've heard of ghosts. Hey its my avatar and its in my name. Why is it whenever I use them I lose then? Why can't I just mass ghosts to use in TvZ?
It's because they are too damn costly and drastically cut into production of marines and tanks, which actually kill the hoards of zerglings.
You're not going to directly get your money's worth with a ghost but if you land 2 emps on a clump of infestors I can guarentee those ghosts more than justified the money and time it took to make them.
On July 05 2011 07:15 Qlimax_UK wrote: The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
I've heard of ghosts. Hey its my avatar and its in my name. Why is it whenever I use them I lose then? Why can't I just mass ghosts to use in TvZ?
It's because they are too damn costly and drastically cut into production of marines and tanks, which actually kill the hoards of zerglings.
Yeah Ghost are 200 minerals, and 100 gas. And in TvZ they don't really serve more then to knock out Infestors. In contrast the infestor can be spammed and can kill everything so massing them is actually a good thing. Not to mention EMP only kill 100 energy meaning every Infestor must be EMPed twice. Thats alot of ghosts.
Seeing how zerg is so defenseless early game, why won't terran attack early and end the game? No need to tech to ghosts when ur marine force completely obliterates the zerg.
On July 05 2011 07:17 Ghostfoot wrote: It's because they are too damn costly and drastically cut into production of marines and tanks, which actually kill the hoards of zerglings.
On July 05 2011 07:17 Ghostfoot wrote: It's because they are too damn costly and drastically cut into production of marines and tanks, which actually kill the hoards of zerglings.
What? They cost less gas than infestors do
Infestors serve more uses then the Ghost. Since when does EMP kill Zerglings?
On July 05 2011 07:15 Qlimax_UK wrote: The reason why Infestor/Broodlord seems imballanced is because people are retards and dont use their brains or creative play, TERRAN HAVE GHOSTS, HAVE THEY HEARD OF EMP?
Ghosts have become standard in TvP battles, they should be in TvZ also, that would stop all of the whining over nothing imo.
I've heard of ghosts. Hey its my avatar and its in my name. Why is it whenever I use them I lose then? Why can't I just mass ghosts to use in TvZ?
It's because they are too damn costly and drastically cut into production of marines and tanks, which actually kill the hoards of zerglings.
You're not going to directly get your money's worth with a ghost but if you land 2 emps on a clump of infestors I can guarentee those ghosts more than justified the money and time it took to make them.
I respect that, and I've been in this situation before. Typically what happens is the infestors would burrow or just GTFO when they see ghosts, making it difficult to land clutch emps. If they are balled up, EMP would be my obvious choice of action, considering they have not been pooling energy past 175 (which they probably have). Unlike the HTs of protoss, infestors are more mobile and have larger radii so it usually takes more that a couple clutch emps to drain a group of say 15? Though maybe I should refine my play more.
On July 05 2011 06:59 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: The game is balenced at the moment, nothing needs to change.
Infestors are great units for zerg but like alot of zerg units they are very fragile. Terrans can easily take advantage of a zerg getting infestors with a lot of drops, sending single cloaked banshees in to was energy and in army battle the obvious answer is the ghost to EMP and snipe (the ghost is also very good at killing broodlords and ultras with snipe) You can also spread your bio army to avoid it all getting fungaled.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I like the part where you said "Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style"
These three are some of the most imaganitive zerg players there are. Have you ever seen any of them play?
Here let me help you, this is Destiny vs Bomber, a very good korean pro player. It's a best of 3, Destiny uses a lot of infestors and hive tech in each game. You can not only see how to make infestors work, but also for all the terrans out there you can see how to win against them
Edit: i've just seen that theres a thread about the Destiny vs Bomber games already up, Here it is!
This is WRONG. Flat out. Drops will maybe keep an infestor or 2 in the base to stop a drop, but good overlord placement can be a life saver. Also, cloaked banshees in the mid-late game TvZ is a waste of time and money since A) cloak is expensive, B) nothing is gonna stop them from just laying down a single spore crawler, and C) you need money for medivacs, and vikings.
Finally, you are not gonna have enough ghost energy to use that many snipes and EMPs to stop BL and Infestor play.
I would personally like to see a bit more Raven play...but that is a caster that needs some tweaking. There are too many upgrades for it, many of which that do not make it useful outside of detection and PDD.
If you're making a title "A (honest) look at the Infestor and ZvT lategame" then shouldn't it be "A(n) (honest) look at the Infestor and ZvT lategame" to be grammatically correct?
I guess your title implies all other looks at the infestor and ZvT lategame could be considered misleading, deceitful, etc.
I dislike everything that eliminates micro. It is really hard to deal with because its unavoidable and does good damage.
If the trend continues, im afraid blizzard will have to do something. If you were only slowed instead of frozen, or if it was a missile again, it would be easier to deal with.
On July 05 2011 07:28 Fosjoo wrote: Infestors are pritty op, once they get a hit on a bunch of marines, or anything those units will die since you can refungel easy.
Yeah and not only that, but they can mind control wich is insane spell. I had one mindcontrol 5 of my tanks and fungler rest of my 150ish army. He sent a couple of 1/2 lings with the army and it got crushed.. we had both about same army value.
How in the world can you think Mr Bitter started the standard infestor use.. Thats just a completely insane statement.
However to stay on topic, I'm not really sure what to do as a T player vs a Z in end game. once its 200 vs 200, infestor/broods compositions just oblierate Terran armys, and combined with the zergs ability to remax so quickly, I find that unless I'm already drastically ahead I stand no chance.
tbh, most zergs even agree with me thats its kinda OP. and the only real answer is to not let it get to that stage.
On July 05 2011 07:29 johlar wrote: I dislike everything that eliminates micro. It is really hard to deal with because its unavoidable and does good damage.
If the trend continues, im afraid blizzard will have to do something. If you were only slowed instead of frozen, or if it was a missile again, it would be easier to deal with.
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
Marine Tank Ghost with 2 or 3 ravens for PDD and maybe a splash of vikings(4-5) should be able to hold broodlord infestor corruptor as long as terran micros. Both armies are slow and have to cast abilities. While these fights are going on Terran should probably be doing some type of counter drops, is it more micro intensive than Zerg? maybe, but it's not impossible.
In this late game scenario Zerg has more mobility for counters than terran, but will have to sac mutas to keep gas up for infestor BL, Terran has PF and tank lines to protect their expos.
I do think there is an issue with very specific points of infestors. Fungal on marines even though it is quite strong you just need to split the marines that is fine.
The issue is when you get brood lords and it becomes impossible to even hurt them. The armour bonus and the tendency of air units clumping ruins vikings without having any air units. Now mix in a handful of corrupters or neural one or two vikings and you have to commit so much money and supply into vikings that they can over run you with mass ling that they can pump so easily from the gas heavy BL and infestors. So vikings wont work what else do I have left to kill air? Marines will never get in range with the mass ling/fungal/broodlings not to mention the friendly fire from the tanks. I can go mass snipe but a fungal ends that really really easy especially if you spread your infestors so emp is less effective. And thors just massage the BLs.
I think a big problem with SC2 is that pretty much all casters shut down micro so much. Fungal is an auto death because you can't run out of it. FF just blocks everyone off. EMP kills casters.
On July 05 2011 07:28 Fosjoo wrote: Infestors are pritty op, once they get a hit on a bunch of marines, or anything those units will die since you can refungel easy.
Yeah and not only that, but they can mind control wich is insane spell. I had one mindcontrol 5 of my tanks and fungler rest of my 150ish army. He sent a couple of 1/2 lings with the army and it got crushed.. we had both about same army value.
Terran has always had to have the better army to do well vs zergs since they can remake their army very easy. Once they take away that and give zergs equaly good army as a terran i dont see how a terran can win lategame.
This thread is absolutely horrible, and the game between bomber and destiny shows absolutely nothing. Bomber took an early lead and did NOTHING, he literally sat on his side of the map and massed command centers. Maybe he should have... i dont know.. dropped? attacked? did something?
and ghosts take away 100 energy from multiple infestors, please dont tell me you want your 1 ghost to STILL counter infestors when theres 30 of them that have been sitting around gaining energy. what a joke.
Stop trying to justify Marines killing EVERYTHING, and on a side note, i hear snipe works pretty well against both ultralisks and broodlords.
On July 05 2011 06:59 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: The game is balenced at the moment, nothing needs to change.
Infestors are great units for zerg but like alot of zerg units they are very fragile. Terrans can easily take advantage of a zerg getting infestors with a lot of drops, sending single cloaked banshees in to was energy and in army battle the obvious answer is the ghost to EMP and snipe (the ghost is also very good at killing broodlords and ultras with snipe) You can also spread your bio army to avoid it all getting fungaled.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I like the part where you said "Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style"
These three are some of the most imaganitive zerg players there are. Have you ever seen any of them play?
Here let me help you, this is Destiny vs Bomber, a very good korean pro player. It's a best of 3, Destiny uses a lot of infestors and hive tech in each game. You can not only see how to make infestors work, but also for all the terrans out there you can see how to win against them
Edit: i've just seen that theres a thread about the Destiny vs Bomber games already up, Here it is!
This is WRONG. Flat out. Drops will maybe keep an infestor or 2 in the base to stop a drop, but good overlord placement can be a life saver. Also, cloaked banshees in the mid-late game TvZ is a waste of time and money since A) cloak is expensive, B) nothing is gonna stop them from just laying down a single spore crawler, and C) you need money for medivacs, and vikings.
Finally, you are not gonna have enough ghost energy to use that many snipes and EMPs to stop BL and Infestor play.
I would personally like to see a bit more Raven play...but that is a caster that needs some tweaking. There are too many upgrades for it, many of which that do not make it useful outside of detection and PDD.
also add that mutas laugh at bashees, spending the $ on cloak only to have zerg make detection and have mutas fly in quickly from anywhere on the map and effectively shut down any future banshee play. not to mention the amount of medics you dont have because your starport was occupied most of the time making banshees that did minimal damage
"You need to stop thinking like a designer, and more like a player."
The people who say Infestors or Zerg are overpowered with Infestors are ridiculous, Ghosts are hugely underused and everyone says it and nobody does it (all hyperboles), and if you watch Day9 beta stuff, Ghosts have been underused since before the beginning, so it's not new thing.
The success of players using Infestors like Destiny is beyond great, because they are players who are thinking like players and not like designers.
On July 05 2011 06:22 avilo wrote: I don't think any top terran is going to post how they genuinely feel about infestors/late game tvz because they don't want to get flamed.
But if you want to know, i'd go ask lots of Terrans personally, and they will tell you ^_^
This pretty much sums it up.
But by all means, keep this thread going. It is hilarious to hear low level zergs telling terrans how they've figured out the next TvZ revolution. This subforum turns into utter shit when balance is brought up, especially when somebody suggests Z is op.
On July 05 2011 06:22 avilo wrote: I don't think any top terran is going to post how they genuinely feel about infestors/late game tvz because they don't want to get flamed.
But if you want to know, i'd go ask lots of Terrans personally, and they will tell you ^_^
This pretty much sums it up.
But by all means, keep this thread going. It is hilarious to hear low level zergs telling terrans how they've figured out the next TvZ revolution. This subforum turns into utter shit when balance is brought up, especially when somebody suggests Z is op.
On July 05 2011 06:54 eu.exodus wrote: i dont agree with this. i honestly think the game should be so that all 3 races are balanced at every stage of the game. what you are basically implying is that go for MMM timing push every game to win or lose. thats a really stupid way to play a potentially awesome game. no fun in doing the same shit every game or dying
I don't like it either, I agree that it's stupid. It's fine with me if they make zerg a bit stronger early game and a bit weaker late game, compared to now. But my guess is that for variety sake, they deliberately keep races differently strong in early vs late game.
Infestor is fine ; the game "balling" effect is totally wrong ; it makes all the AoE spells annoying strong, as the only real way to counter them is a insane amount of micro to "keep" your units in a split position ; just move them and they clump up again.
The game simply should have an option if your army wanders in "formation" or just clumps up ; Warcraft 3 had something similiar to that (and most other RTS have too ; and thats something SC2 misses like hell).
Players with great micro will be better, no matter if your units can move in formation or not ; theirs planty of room for micro beyound that ; it will simply help any non Top 10 GM players to have a better controll about the units.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
As terran player i can savely say there is nothing wrong with infestors. The only reason why infestor/bl or lategame zerg might look insanely op is when the zerg had already won the game 5 minutes ago and just uses it to finish the terran off.
So, if you see that combo and think "how should i ever be able to stop this?" you pretty much messed up your early/midgame.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with the infestor. its a great unit, but its completely necessary to late game zerg vs terran.
once you hit 33 33 on tanks/marines as long as you have enough vikings/ghosts to deal with broodlords your army literally cannot die as long as you are positioned correctly. infestors certainly make the job more difficult on the terran, but it is something that you can deal with easily. if a zerg tries to mass infestor you (as t) you lol all day and basically match him in expansions because without muta its realy easy to defends PFs and your main etc
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
What is the purpose of this discussion exactly? Blizzard has already identified infestor/broodlord as something they are looking into to determine if its too strong. Let them do their thing and decide if something needs to be changed. In the meantime work around them. The best thing YOU can do as a terran player would be to try to use ghosts against them with snipe as im sure thats all blizzard is waiting for people to try and fail with before nerfing this composition. Infestor/broodlord with corrupter support is pure lockdown.
On July 05 2011 07:46 quirl wrote: As terran player i can savely say there is nothing wrong with infestors. The only reason why infestor/bl or lategame zerg might look insanely op is when the zerg had already won the game 5 minutes ago and just uses it to finish the terran off.
So, if you see that combo and think "how should i ever be able to stop this?" you pretty much messed up your early/midgame.
This is nonsense. Even if you are ahead in supply, once the zerg gets infestor broodlord there is no cost efficient way to beat this unit combination. Pretty sure you don't actually play terran or you have never played against infestor broodlord then.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
exactly this. also i dont think zerg players realise how hard it is to split like champion lol.
On July 05 2011 07:43 TheOnlyOne wrote: Infestor is fine ; the game "balling" effect is totally wrong ; it makes all the AoE spells annoying strong, as the only real way to counter them is a insane amount of micro to "keep" your units in a split position ; just move them and they clump up again.
Isn't that one way to keep the skill cap higher?
In BW the unit AI was fucking retarded too, but it allowed good control to stand out once people learned how the units exactly behave. Many people complain about SC2 having not enough micro, yet this is one area where there's a ton of improvement to be made. And it all boils down to better micro and unit control.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor is cost efficient vs terran.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops. ( SNIPE TECH BUILDING, that's the main reason why MMA TvZ is so annoying )
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
I just want to list what infestors are capable of because I found some points were missing in the OP.
Infestors have AOE Which is good against Mass units Infestors have neural parasite which is very effective against very stong units like battlecruiser Infestors are airproofed because of the deadly combination of fungal + infested terrans Infestors are detectors (yes fungal does reveal) Investors have the ability to move unseen (dark templar/banshee ability) and cast fungal on mineral lines (harras) Infestors do not clump up because of their model size and they accumulate energy so that 1 emp does not deplete it completly Infestors have a speed upgrade on creep on Which a zerg can choose to fight
The only two downsides to calling the infestor a unit which counters everything is that it has little health and needs to be microed
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Late game infestors are really darned good. The only saving grace is that most Terran players are better at multitasking than zergs (nothing personal, but it's something we have to train at), so we can force them to make mistakes while pressuring on multiple fronts.
It's kind of disappointing to see some zerg players give advice to terran players. Everyone here is really intelligent, and we've tried what you're suggesting, but many of the tips don't work that well in practice.
Usually what I do if they go infestor broodlord is let them push into one of my mains (I try to spread production&tech evenly to all expos) before doing a large drop on the main to snipe tech, doing a mech push into their closest expo, and doing small drops into each expansion while wearing the broodlords down with spread-out vikings. It's like sacrificing an arm to save the body~and it works pretty good.
Infestor Ultra is fairly meh in my opinion. It feels like it's very hard for a zerg player to push into a base that's entrenched with tanks and buildings.
I dunno what to say about people saying just micro more. It's really not that simple. If we took everyone's advice we would have to do so much. To me it's like saying to a zerg... whenever you do a round of injects, you must jump up, click your heels, and check your facebook for notifications. Sure that's all easy, but it's allot to ask for when your playing a game.
On July 05 2011 07:58 Weinstein wrote: I just want to list what infestors are capable of because I found some points were missing in the OP.
Infestors have AOE Which is good against Mass units Infestors have neural parasite which is very effective against very stong units like battlecruiser Infestors are airproofed because of the deadly combination of fungal + infested terrans Infestors are detectors (yes fungal does reveal) Investors have the ability to move unseen (dark templar/banshee ability) and cast fungal on mineral lines (harras) Infestors do not clump up because of their model size and they accumulate energy so that 1 emp does not deplete it completly Infestors have a speed upgrade on creep on Which a zerg can choose to fight
The only two downsides to calling the infestor a unit which counters everything is that it has little health and needs to be microed
On July 05 2011 05:32 Noocta wrote: Caster are OP, all of them.
Naahh, i think it's pretty much every AOE units that are ''OP'', because of the insane clumping and ball effect.
I have to agree with you on this point.
ZvZ is currently quite retarded because of the strenght of the infestors. I win and lose games I only because of infestor numbers. The key to the matchup is having a good engagement, which is not always easy as you can prepare and spread out your forces but the clumping effect on roaches is almost instant and anytime you have to reposition your army it gets clumped unless you use a lot of 2-3 roach only hotkeys. I don't think the infestor is OP because it's really needed to deal with certain army composition and without it the zerg would have no hope in the late game (yes broodlords are strong but once he gets vikings what do you do?), I think the clumping effect needs to be reviewed and most likely reduced considerably. Not only would it fix the infestor being quite strong, it would also fix units like the collosi who do tons of damage unless the opposing army is spread out.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops. ( SNIPE TECH BUILDING, that's the main reason why MMA TvZ is so annoying )
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
How are you going to prevent your vikings from clumping? And interestingly enough now the terran needs tanks vikings, medivacs and ghost to win. and how are you going to deal with his tech switch then?
You are telling terran players that they have to micro several different units at once in like 10 different control groups while all the zerg has to do is fungal and a move. how on earth is that fair?
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
exactly this. also i dont think zerg players realise how hard it is to split like champion lol.
In both cases you can split Before hand, o wait, is that too hard for you as well?
with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
I am pretty sure that it takes less APM to split your marines before an engagement rather than after when a large ball of banelings are running at you. Even then, at least you can RUN from banelings.
Also, what you are arguing is a mechanics issue, which has no bearing with so called "balance".
On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote: with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
I am pretty sure that it takes less APM to split your marines before an engagement rather than after when a large ball of banelings are running at you. Even then, at least you can RUN from banelings.
Also, what you are arguing is a mechanics issue, which has no bearing with so called "balance".
What... split marines and there's no running requirement. and it's not a mechanics issue, it's more like... hey try to not be an idiot and don't let your units clump.
On July 05 2011 07:58 Weinstein wrote: I just want to list what infestors are capable of because I found some points were missing in the OP.
Infestors have AOE Which is good against Mass units Infestors have neural parasite which is very effective against very stong units like battlecruiser Infestors are airproofed because of the deadly combination of fungal + infested terrans Infestors are detectors (yes fungal does reveal) Investors have the ability to move unseen (dark templar/banshee ability) and cast fungal on mineral lines (harras) Infestors do not clump up because of their model size and they accumulate energy so that 1 emp does not deplete it completly Infestors have a speed upgrade on creep on Which a zerg can choose to fight
The only two downsides to calling the infestor a unit which counters everything is that it has little health and needs to be microed
They also have the +25 starting energy upgrade and the Infestor Mound is required for the Hive tech anyway.
I did believe snipe was 45 damage so infestors died in 2 snipes. But it's 40 which kinda sucks. IMO Ghosts are only good on paper against both Infestor and Zergling.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
I find your claim that ultraling/infestor is cost effective to be completely ludicrous. If you have marauders mixed into your army and a wel upgraded tank based army and some ghosts for emp and snipe on the ultras then it's rarely possible to trade well as zerg. Broodlord/corruptor/infestor can be considered cost effective but absolutely not the ultra compisition. If terran spends the same ammount of money on upgrades and units he will dominate that army if he is sieged up and spread out before the battle starts.
Also if someone skips mutas you can pretty easily do double drops and switch over to a more tank /marauder based play. The only way infestor/ling dominates someone is if you have all your marines clumped up so he gets a super fungal.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
I am pretty sure that it takes less APM to split your marines before an engagement rather than after when a large ball of banelings are running at you. Even then, at least you can RUN from banelings.
Also, what you are arguing is a mechanics issue, which has no bearing with so called "balance".
What... split marines and there's no running requirement. and it's not a mechanics issue, it's more like... hey try to not be an idiot and don't let your units clump.
I seriously think you are like gold or something like that. worst poster on this forum ... by miles.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
I am pretty sure that it takes less APM to split your marines before an engagement rather than after when a large ball of banelings are running at you. Even then, at least you can RUN from banelings.
Also, what you are arguing is a mechanics issue, which has no bearing with so called "balance".
What... split marines and there's no running requirement. and it's not a mechanics issue, it's more like... hey try to not be an idiot and don't let your units clump.
I seriously think you are like gold or something like that. worst poster on this forum ... by miles.
On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote: with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
if you're under grandmasters, you really shouldn't either. almost nobody in this thread is good enough to be saying the things they are, there are always things you can improve.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote: with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
I'm diamond facing master, thank's. I'm just worried for the lower level player. Empathy...
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops.
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
terran mechnics are not like zerg mechanics. as i terran, i cant build 1 tech building and spam the unlocked unit from the same building i get everything else from. if i was producing marines from (for arguments sake) 8 rax + tanks/ hellions from 4 fact + medivacs from 1 reactor port its not as easy as you might think to do a sudden tech switch and have enough production capabilities to handle your tech switch with my existing structures.
On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote: with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
I'm diamond facing master, thank's. I'm just worried for the lower level player. Empathy...
Then why aren't you Master? Just because your facing doesn't mean your winning.
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply
and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D:
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote: with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
I'm diamond facing master, thank's. I'm just worried for the lower level player. Empathy...
Then why aren't you Master? Just because your facing doesn't mean your winning.
okay sorry from now on i'll shut the fuck up because i'm nothing, i'm just a SCRUB.
i am completely sick of all these noobs saying "lol, a terran should pressure the zerg, a terran should drop the zerg like MMA"
listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
Are you telling me lategame ZvT should be instant win for the zerg? hell no
lategame ZvT should be a battle of tactics and unit making decisions and knowing where to attack and trying to control the map as well as you can. it should NOT be "terran must pressure the zerg and try to win before lategame or he auto loses"
If you say "the terran should pressure the zerg and deal enough damage to have a big enough lead in the lategame to win" i will say hell no again, not only is that a bad design concept, but from the way the game looks right now it seems like thats not even how the current state of the game is. It will take many pro games to see the truth but it seems to me like as long as the zerg is competent and reacts properly, he can defend pressure / drops properly and always be out ahead.
Sure, MMA beat losira with drops in MLG. but im not talking about that. lets just say hypothetically losira was actually playing badly and it is possible for smart zergs to stop/defend that aggression.
ask yourself this question. IF, remember this is a hypothetical question. IF ... IF dropping a smart zerg EVEN for the best / greatest terran like MMA was always a bad idea because a smart zerg could always defend properly to make it so the terran invested more than the damage he did, why the hell would dropping be a good idea in high level play?
now you see, that hypothetical question depends on alot of opinions.
some people out there think its possible for terrans to drop in a way where its a good thing and zergs even if they play perfect are always behind from it. some people think thats not true. WHICH GROUP OF PEOPLE IS CORRECT? honestly theres no damn way to know the truth right now. and all im saying is even if the first group of people were correct, i still dont think thats a good design concept
i see no problems with brood lords. but the infestor seems to have a problem later in the game if the zerg can protect them because they just keep regenerating energy which allows to zerg to keep throwing up armies of infested terrans and then fungal bunches of marines when he can. if you fight an army of infested terrans, you might be able to stop it but you just sacrificed units while the zerg only sacrificed energy.
sure, when zergs stupidly A-move their infestors into tanks and they die it makes infestors seem weak. but a smart zerg that actually protects his infestors can show how broken the unit might be
i could talk about balance change ideas but ultimately thats pointless. balance change ideas are a reaction to a game imbalance. the discussion should be if a game imbalance exists, and honestly i dont really know. but if one does exist, i would say the problem is with the infestor (not brood lords or ultras).
i know talking about balance change ideas is dumb, but honestly i think a good fix would be to make fungal growth not slow units and deal the same damage but over 15 seconds and increase the AoE by like 300%. that way terrans could try to repair/heal the damage but it would be doing more damage per energy but it would make mass infestors less powerful in the fungal aspect but they would be just as strong in the infested terran armies / NP aspect
but alas, talking about balance changes is stupid. the real question is whether or not imbalance exists, because balance changes are a REACTION to identified imbalance. so i wont talk about balance change ideas anymore
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply
and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D:
except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg.
Im gonna put this in a perspective that zergs can understand how broken this unit composition is.
First: it is basically as strong if not stronger than void/colo since not only its got great aoe/damage oh It also prevents movement. Against Void colo, you can actually still hit the units attacking you. Not with brood/infestor
Second: unlike toss just because you kill the army once doesn't mean you win. Toss at least if they mismicro their hugeball and get obliterated by good positioning. They really can't come back. Alll their core units takes forever to produce. Zergs can easily reproduce the deathball if on a good economy because of larva mechanics
So basically you got a strategy that is very strong without risks or any real hard counter or even good ways of engaging unless they make a mistake.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops.
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
terran mechnics are not like zerg mechanics. as i terran, i cant build 1 tech building and spam the unlocked unit from the same building i get everything else from. if i was producing marines from (for arguments sake) 8 rax + tanks/ hellions from 4 fact + medivacs from 1 reactor port its not as easy as you might think to do a sudden tech switch and have enough production capabilities to handle your tech switch with my existing structures.
What are you even arguing?
Terran don't have to do large tech switches. Marines are always good. Tanks are always good. Medivacs are always good.
Only at the 16-20 minute mark, when the threat of brood lords appears, do you even have to consider putting a reactor on a starport for vikings, or making a ghost academy. It's not like you need 8 tech lab barracks to make ghosts, you need at most 2.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
i am completely sick of all these noobs saying "lol, a terran should pressure the zerg, a terran should drop the zerg like MMA"
listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
Are you telling me lategame ZvT should be instant win for the zerg? hell no
lategame ZvT should be a battle of tactics and unit making decisions and knowing where to attack and trying to control the map as well as you can. it should NOT be "terran must pressure the zerg and try to win before lategame or he auto loses"
If you say "the terran should pressure the zerg and deal enough damage to have a big enough lead in the lategame to win" i will say hell no again, not only is that a bad design concept, but from the way the game looks right now it seems like thats not even how the current state of the game is. It will take many pro games to see the truth but it seems to me like as long as the zerg is competent and reacts properly, he can defend pressure / drops properly and always be out ahead.
Sure, MMA beat losira with drops in MLG. but im not talking about that. lets just say hypothetically losira was actually playing badly and it is possible for smart zergs to stop/defend that aggression.
ask yourself this question. IF, remember this is a hypothetical question. IF ... IF dropping a smart zerg EVEN for the best / greatest terran like MMA was always a bad idea because a smart zerg could always defend properly to make it so the terran invested more than the damage he did, why the hell would dropping be a good idea in high level play?
now you see, that hypothetical question depends on alot of opinions.
some people out there think its possible for terrans to drop in a way where its a good thing and zergs even if they play perfect are always behind from it. some people think thats not true. WHICH GROUP OF PEOPLE IS CORRECT? honestly theres no damn way to know the truth right now. and all im saying is even if the first group of people were correct, i still dont think thats a good design concept
i see no problems with brood lords. but the infestor seems to have a problem later in the game if the zerg can protect them because they just keep regenerating energy which allows to zerg to keep throwing up armies of infested terrans and then fungal bunches of marines when he can. if you fight an army of infested terrans, you might be able to stop it but you just sacrificed units while the zerg only sacrificed energy.
sure, when zergs stupidly A-move their infestors into tanks and they die it makes infestors seem weak. but a smart zerg that actually protects his infestors can show how broken the unit might be
i could talk about balance change ideas but ultimately thats pointless. balance change ideas are a reaction to a game imbalance. the discussion should be if a game imbalance exists, and honestly i dont really know. but if one does exist, i would say the problem is with the infestor (not brood lords or ultras).
i know talking about balance change ideas is dumb, but honestly i think a good fix would be to make fungal growth not slow units and deal the same damage but over 15 seconds and increase the AoE by like 300%. that way terrans could try to repair/heal the damage but it would be doing more damage per energy but it would make mass infestors less powerful in the fungal aspect but they would be just as strong in the infested terran armies / NP aspect
but alas, talking about balance changes is stupid. the real question is whether or not imbalance exists, because balance changes are a REACTION to identified imbalance. so i wont talk about balance change ideas anymore
On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote: with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
I'm diamond facing master, thank's. I'm just worried for the lower level player. Empathy...
Then why aren't you Master? Just because your facing doesn't mean your winning.
Actually, if you climb up high enough onto the ladder you will go from facing top 8 masters to top 8 diamonds, then back to top masters + grandmasters. It's a weird phenomena where people in diamond will have a higher MMR than many people in masters.
listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
You sound like Idra. " QQ If Protoss is not dumb he will do everything perfectly. "
Fun fact: Noone play perfectly. Terrans can make drops work even with Muta or Infestor on the field.
Since you kindly linked to MrBitter's ZvT guide, he explicitly states that Infestor play sacrifices mobility for being able to win straight up engagements. This is a weakness that many players have not exploited yet (although in Destiny vs Bomber, Bomber basically crushed Destiny with that ealry game drop).
People who say Infestor play is OP are the same people who refuse to give up their old strategies of "Tank Marine push" or "Protoss deathball." Early blinkstalkers are becoming incredibly popular for this reason -- small numbers of Infestors simply can't deal with them. If Zerg has to change in order to combat the inherent disadvantages of their 200/200 made of pure Roach ling hydra baneling whatever, other races and players should learn to adapt as well.
The theorycrafting here is amazing. Yes, it takes 6 snipes to kill a broodlord, and it also takes 12 to kill an ultralisk. You guys forget some things about ghosts: - 5 ghosts cost 1000 minerals. Terrans have alot of GAS vs zerg, not alot of MINERALS. - it is very easy for zerg to overrun you when you have ghosts. Speedlings are amazing against them. - by the time you got 12 snipes on the ultralisk, your ghosts are dead. The zerg army MOVES guys, you can't just chill and snipe...
In the perfect game, I would have 2 cloacked ghost, I would run towards 12 clumped infestors, I would emp them twice so all the energy would be gone, and I would destroy his infestors with my marines. He would have no detection.
On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote: Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage now... using all that brain power... what should you do against infestors?
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply
and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D:
except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg.
that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord
On July 05 2011 08:17 Dente wrote: The theorycrafting here is amazing. Yes, it takes 6 snipes to kill a broodlord, and it also takes 12 to kill an ultralisk. You guys forget some things about ghosts: - 5 ghosts cost 1000 minerals. Terrans have alot of GAS vs zerg, not alot of MINERALS. - it is very easy for zerg to overrun you when you have ghosts. Speedlings are amazing against them. - by the time you got 12 snipes on the ultralisk, your ghosts are dead. The zerg army MOVES guys, you can't just chill and snipe...
In the perfect game, I would have 2 cloacked ghost, I would run towards 12 clumped infestors, I would emp them twice so all the energy would be gone, and I would destroy his infestors with my marines. He would have no detection.
if you have spare gas, you could spend it on ravens/banshees maybe. ravens can be very powerful with HSM and brood lords cant run away.
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply
and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D:
except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg.
that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord
massing ghosts to use energy for snipe is stupid. its nowhere near the damage/energy of infestors and fungal growth. the zerg should also have a bigger economy to support more infestors making it more dumb.
now, mass ghosts combined with tons of orbitals / scans to find all infestors and using EMP might actually be worth it. by using emp to counter the damage of fungal by preventing them from happening, emp should theoretically be more powerful energy-per-energy than fungal as long as you hit 3+ infestors.
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
You sound like Idra. " QQ If Protoss is not dumb he will do everything perfectly. "
Fun fact: Noone play perfectly. Terrans can make drops work even with Muta or Infestor on the field.
the game should not be balanced on the assumption that your enemy is bad
as for that zvp mentality, i can say toss 200 food armies can be defeated cost effectively by zerg, easily, the zerg just needs to have brood lords PLUS ultralisks in his army. i havnt seen it in any high level pro game yet, but its true. every time a zerg loses to a 200 food toss army its because he is fighting collossi/storm/voidrays/archons without his own high level units. ive never seen a zerg lose against a 200food toss army if he himself has ultralisks + brood lords peppered into his army.
so, what im saying cannot be proven as true because its never happened in a pro game, however at the same time i can at least say my theoretically zerg army has also never lost to a 200food toss army in a pro game, meaning pro games have currently never ventured into that territory yet, so theres no real pro game evidence to fall back on. but in the unit tester, the zerg 200food army with brood lords / ultras will roll over the toss 200food army i can garuntee that
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
TvZ is all about making the zerg mess up. In a perfect world where zerg get to do what he want, terran would never win. Btw, a heavy infestor player will rarely have baneling too. You just can't support the gas to make corruptor broodlord infestor AND baneling.
I'd like to see Ghosts from Terrans in the late game against Infestors. Not only can you EMP the suckers, but you've also got Snipe on hand for Brood Lords. Hell, you wouldn't even need Vikings.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply
and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D:
except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg.
that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord
massing ghosts to use energy for snipe is stupid. its nowhere near the damage/energy of infestors and fungal growth. the zerg should also have a bigger economy to support more infestors making it more dumb.
now, mass ghosts combined with tons of orbitals / scans to find all infestors and using EMP might actually be worth it. by using emp to counter the damage of fungal by preventing them from happening, emp should theoretically be more powerful energy-per-energy than fungal as long as you hit 3+ infestors.
EMP doesn't deal any damage whatsoever. Massing ghosts is nonsensical because even IF you counter the infestors you invest way too much into massing a unit that has no other use except for countering infestors. And you are assuming that the terran hits all emps before the zerg hits his fungal, in other words you are assuming that the terran has sick micro and the zerg is a noob.
On July 05 2011 08:27 branflakes14 wrote: I'd like to see Ghosts from Terrans in the late game against Infestors. Not only can you EMP the suckers, but you've also got Snipe on hand for Brood Lords. Hell, you wouldn't even need Vikings.
Really? Snipes kill broodlords? How many ghosts are you going to build then to kill like 8 broodlords? Just wondering. (+ emp all infestors)
I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote: well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,....................
you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +
(nerf inc)
but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm
infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply
and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D:
except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg.
that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord
On July 05 2011 08:17 Dente wrote: The theorycrafting here is amazing. Yes, it takes 6 snipes to kill a broodlord, and it also takes 12 to kill an ultralisk. You guys forget some things about ghosts: - 5 ghosts cost 1000 minerals. Terrans have alot of GAS vs zerg, not alot of MINERALS. - it is very easy for zerg to overrun you when you have ghosts. Speedlings are amazing against them. - by the time you got 12 snipes on the ultralisk, your ghosts are dead. The zerg army MOVES guys, you can't just chill and snipe...
In the perfect game, I would have 2 cloacked ghost, I would run towards 12 clumped infestors, I would emp them twice so all the energy would be gone, and I would destroy his infestors with my marines. He would have no detection.
if you have spare gas, you could spend it on ravens/banshees maybe. ravens can be very powerful with HSM and brood lords cant run away.
The problem is how many ghost do you need per infestor or per broodlord? I mean we can't really asy for sure but terran needs a decent tank count(obvious else mass ling/bling still wins) and ugprades. Terran need a lot of ghost. If your plan is to emp+snipe we aren;t talking about 10-11 ghost that thorzain uses against toss. You probably need an upward of 20 ghost(3 snipes for infestors 6 for broods just do the math).
Another problem with ghost is that you you have to add a lot of tech labs. Ghost aren't very good versus mass lings/bling(even if they do do same dps as marines). Once you finish brood/infestors(if it acutally happens), they switch tech to mass lings/bling or hack even roaches. You are still screwed. Cause in orer to make ghost, all your barracks went on tech labs(or most) which means you can't keep up against zerg's production off techlabs only. Sudden tech switches by zerg late game forces a lot from terran.
I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops.
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
terran mechnics are not like zerg mechanics. as i terran, i cant build 1 tech building and spam the unlocked unit from the same building i get everything else from. if i was producing marines from (for arguments sake) 8 rax + tanks/ hellions from 4 fact + medivacs from 1 reactor port its not as easy as you might think to do a sudden tech switch and have enough production capabilities to handle your tech switch with my existing structures.
What are you even arguing?
Terran don't have to do large tech switches. Marines are always good. Tanks are always good. Medivacs are always good.
Only at the 16-20 minute mark, when the threat of brood lords appears, do you even have to consider putting a reactor on a starport for vikings, or making a ghost academy. It's not like you need 8 tech lab barracks to make ghosts, you need at most 2.
how exactly am i to make enough vikings of 1 reactored starport to deal with 5 hatches worth of broodlord corruptor infestor at as you have stated the 16-20 min mark. make more marines maybe? oh yes fungals + broodlings + my starport is all tied up making vikings to make medivacs making stim more of a liabilty. thors maybe?? oh yes neural parasite + broodlings. ghosts? please.... dude was saying not to preemptiveley make shit. how the fuck should i do it afterwards? was my argument....
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
TvZ is all about making the zerg mess up. In a perfect world where zerg get to do what he want, terran would never win. Btw, a heavy infestor player will rarely have baneling too. You just can't support the gas to make corruptor broodlord infestor AND baneling.
So you agree that if both the terran and zerg play a perfect game the zerg would always win. Thank you, because this by defintion is imbalance.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote: Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords).
And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played.
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops.
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
terran mechnics are not like zerg mechanics. as i terran, i cant build 1 tech building and spam the unlocked unit from the same building i get everything else from. if i was producing marines from (for arguments sake) 8 rax + tanks/ hellions from 4 fact + medivacs from 1 reactor port its not as easy as you might think to do a sudden tech switch and have enough production capabilities to handle your tech switch with my existing structures.
What are you even arguing?
Terran don't have to do large tech switches. Marines are always good. Tanks are always good. Medivacs are always good.
Only at the 16-20 minute mark, when the threat of brood lords appears, do you even have to consider putting a reactor on a starport for vikings, or making a ghost academy. It's not like you need 8 tech lab barracks to make ghosts, you need at most 2.
how exactly am i to make enough vikings of 1 reactored starport to deal with 5 hatches worth of broodlord corruptor infestor at as you have stated the 16-20 min mark. make more marines maybe? oh yes fungals + broodlings + my starport is all tied up making vikings to make medivacs making stim more of a liabilty. thors maybe?? oh yes neural parasite + broodlings. ghosts? please.... dude was saying not to preemptiveley make shit. how the fuck should i do it afterwards? was my argument....
Have you never watched GSL terrans ownin everyone?
They scout and scan. The instant they see hive started, they begin making vikings, and the good ones will have 6-10 before any brood lords are finished morphing.
They then keep the vikings in siege tank and as well as split up. If they see a brood lord even slightly out of position, they snipe it and run.
They also get +1 and +2 and even eventually +3 air attack, so they can 1-shot brood lords with their viking ball.
If you let your entire viking ball be caught in fungal, out of range of tanks to protect them, then you deserve to lose.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
Bomber played pretty poorly in that series.
But I guess if Destiny and his OPfestors are so strong he should go win the next GSL, usually dominated by terrans, it's working out well for nestea.
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flame on
PERFECT post. This describes PERFECTLY how TvZ works and this should be added to the OP. I "bolded" the most important parts.
Recently i've lost a ZvT where my opponent went a marouder marine Tank comp against my Infestor ling. At about 200 apm he was able to split his marines making so that 1 fungal would only hit 3-4 marines it was very entertaining to watch;even though i lost. Late game he had gotten ghosts...and i lost. What i'm trying to say is infestors might be OP but just let it play out for a month, let Terrans experiment with faster ghosts+splitting.
The infestor is my favourite unit next to the Hydralisk, and it's great to see it being used alot more. Just lately there, Destiny has been showing great use of this unit. As a long time Zerg player, I am really happy to see this unit being used more ^^
It's ability to create an army of slow marines is amazing and the harassment possibiitys and mind control possibilitys are really cool.
because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flame on
Thanks for this Beasty :D
Nice to get an actual high level terrans opinion on it.
Heres the Thorzain example he mentioned which I posted: + Show Spoiler +
Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
What beastyqt wrote is 100% true, I think he has a vastly different perspective from almost anyone else does on the thread, as he plays vs top pro zergs consistently, and therefore understands the metagame of tvz at a high level. The most important point being that ghosts are at their most effective only when you catch the zerg completely off guard.
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flame on
listen to the man, hes one of the best tvz players in eu and knows what hes talking
On July 05 2011 08:34 OhMyGawd wrote: Recently i've lost a ZvT where my opponent went a marouder marine Tank comp against my Infestor ling. At about 200 apm he was able to split his marines making so that 1 fungal would only hit 3-4 marines it was very entertaining to watch;even though i lost. Late game he had gotten ghosts...and i lost. What i'm trying to say is infestors might be OP but just let it play out for a month, let Terrans experiment with faster ghosts+splitting.
(1400 point masters)
Infestors by themselves is fine. It is still strong but managable with ghosts+emp+tanks. I have won before against mass infestor/ling/bling. All I did was slow push with tanks and if tey engage badly then they lose. The main problem for me is infestors+broodlords. As a terran player, Im just crossing my fingers that he is looking away from screen so I can stim with marines or go in with vikings and kill the 1-2 broods then back else there is really no way to engage in any cost effecient manner.
Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o
Terrans here are theorycrafting too much. People have the assumption zerg will stop everything you try.
Look at the Ling bling style in ZvP. You do a lot of drops. Well, even if protoss defend them all, the style still work if one out of 10 drops work. ( Morrow vs Cruncher game 2 on Shakuras EG Master cup final )
Marines drops work kinda like that. Marines are even more cost efficient than Lings, and don't tell me drops are impossible to do against mutaless zergs. Zerg will NOT have an infestor per base, with sepine crawler covering everything. That's not the reality of the game damnit.
I mean, really Beastyqt, you can't believe in what you wrote about drops being inneficient because zerg get dropped once in a game and so is prepared for every drops possibility.
Infestors are probably the best unit in the game right now. Fungal is ridiculously strong. However, I'm not going to say that Zerg is overpowered, because it has other weaknesses, just like Protoss is not overpowered despite having the second most overpowered unit in the game (the Colossus). Both races have weaknesses that keep them more or less balanced.
No, this isn't a Terran imba QQ. Terrans have the worst macro setup in the game, so they aren't overpowered despite having units that are on average stronger than those of the other two races.
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o
no, im letting you use every game MMA has been in
my post addresses everything entirely. I will find it for you now since you really want to know
in a previous post this is what i wrote. I addresses completely all of your "mma uses drops" arguments
If you say "the terran should pressure the zerg and deal enough damage to have a big enough lead in the lategame to win" i will say hell no again, not only is that a bad design concept, but from the way the game looks right now it seems like thats not even how the current state of the game is. It will take many pro games to see the truth but it seems to me like as long as the zerg is competent and reacts properly, he can defend pressure / drops properly and always be out ahead.
Sure, MMA beat losira with drops in MLG. but im not talking about that. lets just say hypothetically losira was actually playing badly and it is possible for smart zergs to stop/defend that aggression.
ask yourself this question. IF, remember this is a hypothetical question. IF ... IF dropping a smart zerg EVEN for the best / greatest terran like MMA was always a bad idea because a smart zerg could always defend properly to make it so the terran invested more than the damage he did, why the hell would dropping be a good idea in high level play?
now you see, that hypothetical question depends on alot of opinions.
some people out there think its possible for terrans to drop in a way where its a good thing and zergs even if they play perfect are always behind from it. some people think thats not true. WHICH GROUP OF PEOPLE IS CORRECT? honestly theres no damn way to know the truth right now. and all im saying is even if the first group of people were correct, i still dont think thats a good design concept
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o
If every terran player was MMA, this discussion wouldn't be happening. To say that in order to beat zerg late game you must be one of the best players in the world is terrible logic.
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
sure.
destiny vs bomber game 1
bomber played perfectly as long as you follow the assumption that "dropping a smart zerg is a bad idea because as long as the zerg plays smart, he will always defend the drops properly making it so the terran invests more than the damage he does"
the ONLY ARGUMENT someone can use in bomber vs destiny game 1 is that "bomber didnt pressure / drop enough and he didnt do enough aggression"
however, like i said earlier, that is a argument that is based on the assumption that drops/aggression is supposed to be the terran gameplan against zerg. how the hell do you know that? are you a pro terran? maybe bomber is dropping / using aggression against highly skilled practice partners and after dozens of games they now defend it super easily and bomber has decided that drops/aggression is actually a fruitless tactic
MAYBE THAT WHY BOMBER DIDNT USE DROPS/AGGRESSION? maybe?? maybe??? we will never know
so then you might say "well then, why doesnt bomber just switch to zerg then if he cant drop/be aggressive and playing good zergs will always result in auto loss"
and my answer to your question is, we cannot yet determine if there is an imbalance because not all avenues have yet to be discovered yet. but i can assure you, if there IS an unbeatable zerg strategy found vs terran, and it becomes rampant in all pro games, then i assure you, most pro terrans will start switching to zerg. however that hasnt happened yet, so we have to wait to see what goes down and what the truth is.
if dropping a smart zerg is bad then MMA must be retarded, what a noob.
i already addressed your "mma uses drops against zerg and beat losria in mlg with drops" argument in a previous post. please reread the thread
wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o
Because in those games the zerg failed to defend the drops, if the zerg played better he would have lost way less to the drops (Losira is nowhere near being a perfect or gosu zerg, hes good, but in 5 years zerg players will look at losira's games today and think "how did the not defend this drop?") in the future zergs will get better and better at multitasking and defending drops, then it will be almost impossible to drop a really good zerg and I can assure you that as soon as the best zergs learn how to defend terran aggression and drops with minimal losses they will absolutely dominate the tvz matchup.
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flame on
everything has been said we can close the discussion.
OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament.
Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP?
Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly.
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament.
Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP?
Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly.
Nobody is talking about terran being underpowered, it's the lategame composition of broodlord infestor that is overpowered and impossible to deal with. (if the zerg doesn't screw it up)
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament.
Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP?
Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly.
i actually agree with this post
im talking about about ZvT POSSIBLY being imbalanced. but the truth is, i dont know
i say, we should wait. in a few months if every zerg is whoopping every terran like candy and terran has like a 10% winrate against zerg in GSL, then thats when we can safely say theres an imbalance. but right now, i say waiting is the best idea because not all avenues have been discovered yet
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament.
Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP?
Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly.
Nobody is whining about Terran being underpowered. This discussion is about mass infestor + Blord and how terrans can possibly deal with that.
Furthermore, korean zergs do not play the mass infestor style that foreign zergs do, which may be why they don't see as much success.
Beastyqt has spoken. The man knows what he is talking about. I like the BW unit movement, sure the AI is fucking retarded in that game but Blizzard could ez make it good. I would like it that way over how it is now, that everything is so clumped.
Problem is infestors in ZvT and ZvP are amazing against all of the tech trees. It doesn't matter if you go marine/tank, pure bio, mech, banshee/bc, ghost, colossus or immortals, voidray/carrier, or templar, the infestor is a solid response for anything the T or P is doing. It seems that zerg is no longer the reactionary race, because the reaction can always be infestors.
I think the biggest problem here is the infestor - ghost - ht circle. They're all good against each other, which IMO is pretty bad game design. It comes down to who can feedback/emp/fungal first, and if you loose that battle, you may have just lost the entire game
On July 05 2011 08:44 SafeAsCheese wrote: Beastyqt has the lowest zV win rate of the entire first 2 pages of the ELO ranking of terrans, only him and Spades are below 50%
Don't you think he might be a little biased?
There are many tournament results not being added and if you look from ELO rankings (I checked Kas for example) it says his "weakest" matchup is TvT based on % wins and its his strongest matchup
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament.
Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP?
Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly.
This is NOT the point. What I said is: "Is this kind of play too strong, does Terran have an answer to it? If it is that strong, why isn't it used more on korea, when you see the Terran dominance on their ladder?"
I'm not saying terran is UP, what I want to understand is why the korean zergs won't use this style more; Is it because foreign zergs are ahead in the metagame or is it that korean terrans can deal with it without troubles? Does it have many weaknesses to the point where it is not considered "solid" at all? Or is it just that korean zergs haven't figured out the strength of this?
It's imbalanced. David Kim said it will be nerfed soon, so just wait. You can't do anything against it as Terran. Marines/Vikings get fungal'ed and the Broods kill everything, and if you unsiege you get steamrolled by lings/blings
I haven't read the comments in this thread yet, but here is my take.
In ZvT, I skip mutas for infestors. I use them defensively to take my third, and deny my opponents third with multipronged ling attacks (drops, nydus, attack at main while attacking third, etc.). What I've found is that even when my opponent sees me using my infestors heavily, they still refuse to make ghosts. I am a highish master league player, and it amazes me that most terrans still refuse to make the uni that hard-counters the unit I'm making, and with decent micro, neutralizes them.
I don't really use infestors much in ZvP, but in watching CatZ's stream frequently (a heavy user of tobacco as well as infestors) it still appears that even at GM levels of play, players are not efficiently using HT's feedback, though in general it seems to be used more often than EMP.
That's just my take from my own experience, though.
It's just too good, and too well rounded for the amount of damage it does. Anything that PREVENTS micro more than makes it is hurtful to SCII imo. Zerg needs units that have a high skill cap not something this easy.
On July 05 2011 08:50 Dalguno wrote: I haven't read the comments in this thread yet, but here is my take.
In ZvT, I skip mutas for infestors. I use them defensively to take my third, and deny my opponents third with multipronged ling attacks (drops, nydus, attack at main while attacking third, etc.). What I've found is that even when my opponent sees me using my infestors heavily, they still refuse to make ghosts. I am a highish master league player, and it amazes me that most terrans still refuse to make the uni that hard-counters the unit I'm making, and with decent micro, neutralizes them.
Ghosts don't neutralize infestor and midgame you don't have enough gas (off 2-3 bases) to build tanks , medivacs and ghosts (especially not off 2 bases). Ghosts are not a viable counter to infestors, you can emp them but it doesnt kill them and they can regain their energy then. If you really go for alot of ghosts midgame you wont have enough tanks to defend vs ling baneling attacks or if a fungal hits your marines you wont have enough medivacs to heal your marines properly.
zergs really need to stop with this "we know how to play your race" bs . you dont know anything about terran.
On July 05 2011 05:45 Tachion wrote: I don't get it, you're making this argument for how strong infestors are, and your examples are Destiny, Catz, and Spanishiwa...? I think you need far better examples aside from 3 players who haven't actually accomplished anything with this style.
If you absolutely must talk about the strength of infestors vs Terran, the obvious focal point should be brood/corruptor/infestor.
I use them as example because they are the ones using this style. What I want to know is why is it that top-notch zergs(aside from IdrA who never changes) don't do this more often, and why is it that this style worked so well versus Bomber, when it "shouldn't" have worked so well if people don't do it more often.
Also, Dimaga is a good example of Zerg that uses this style, although not as consistently as these guys.
That work against Bomber because Bomber was lazy. Drop play > Mutaless Zerg.
IDK what's preventing a zerg from spreading out infesters to different bases, similar to how protoss would spread out HTs against the exact same tactics.
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
On July 05 2011 08:40 Noocta wrote: Terrans here are theorycrafting too much. People have the assumption zerg will stop everything you try.
Look at the Ling bling style in ZvP. You do a lot of drops. Well, even if protoss defend them all, the style still work if one out of 10 drops work. ( Morrow vs Cruncher game 2 on Shakuras EG Master cup final )
Marines drops work kinda like that. Marines are even more cost efficient than Lings, and don't tell me drops are impossible to do against mutaless zergs. Zerg will NOT have an infestor per base, with sepine crawler covering everything. That's not the reality of the game damnit.
I mean, really Beastyqt, you can't believe in what you wrote about drops being inneficient because zerg get dropped once in a game and so is prepared for every drops possibility.
Beastyqt is absolutely right. You don't think that a good zerg will have all his bases cowered with spines to prevent drops ? Well, you are wrong. I saw Beatyqt vs LaLush on his stream, and LaLush, had like 6 spines cowering every single base, with two spores to addition. Also, saw three more ZvT of LaLush with identical strategy at late game. Don't tell me that it's a really big investment, because even in mid game, zerg floats like 2k minerals. It all comes down to macro and APM you can spare to do it. And when zerg is really good, despite Terran skill, may it be equal or higher, TvZ becomes a nightmare, especially on maps like cross Tal' Darim Altar.
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
Race icons give away people's perspectives on balance way too often.
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
Race icons give away people's perspectives on balance way too often.
With the maps getting bigger and bigger and basically 2 players maps being completely removed from the mappool ( at least in tournaments) bunker rushes will become less and less effective, they are good but not unstoppable even now. A perfectly executed infestor broodlord (baneling) lategame attack however is unstoppable. Even if you snipe the broodlords and emp all the infestors you are forced to unsiege your tanks and the banelings can just roll over your stuff.
HONEST look is = infestors are now too powerfull unite... i think energy upgread need to go out of the game like High templars....(also fungel >>>tunder storm..)
also stun on fungell can become slow (insted stun unites to slow them out) but main thing is ENERGY uppgread need to go out... i think....
but then MARINES will agean be imba...(so nerf marines nerf infestor nerf colloss or force fealds) thay need to look all that things....
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
Race icons give away people's perspectives on balance way too often.
With the maps getting bigger and bigger and basically 2 players maps being completely removed from the mappool ( at least in tournaments) bunker rushes will become less and less effective, they are good but not unstoppable even now. A perfectly executed infestor broodlord (baneling) lategame attack however is unstoppable. Even if you snipe the broodlords and emp all the infestors you are forced to unsiege your tanks and the banelings can just roll over your stuff.
bit early to call it unstoppable, not that many games go that late without either player being at a disadvantage. not enough data to make a definite conclusion like that.
On July 05 2011 08:49 Jedi Master wrote: It's imbalanced. David Kim said it will be nerfed soon, so just wait. You can't do anything against it as Terran. Marines/Vikings get fungal'ed and the Broods kill everything, and if you unsiege you get steamrolled by lings/blings
I wasn't sure if I was going to respond to this thread, but I felt I had to after this post. David Kim NEVER said they will be nerfed soon. He said they are looking at it because they are getting signals that the composition might be too powerfull. Stop spreading nonsense in a serious discussion.
HONEST look is = infestors are now too powerfull unite... i think energy upgread need to go out of the game like High templars....(also fungel >>>tunder storm..)
also stun on fungell can become slow (insted stun unites to slow them out) but main thing is ENERGY uppgread need to go out... i think....
but then MARINES will agean be imba...(so nerf marines nerf infestor nerf colloss or force fealds) thay need to look all that things....
why would marines be imba when you nerf the infestor? That doesnt make any sense, the zerg can also go banelings to kill mass marines, dongraegu (sp?) doesnt use any infestors at all and is extremely succesful with just mass muta play vs terran (with banelings/sling I think)
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
Race icons give away people's perspectives on balance way too often.
With the maps getting bigger and bigger and basically 2 players maps being completely removed from the mappool ( at least in tournaments) bunker rushes will become less and less effective, they are good but not unstoppable even now. A perfectly executed infestor broodlord (baneling) lategame attack however is unstoppable. Even if you snipe the broodlords and emp all the infestors you are forced to unsiege your tanks and the banelings can just roll over your stuff.
bit early to call it unstoppable, not that many games go that late without either player being at a disadvantage. not enough data to make a definite conclusion like that.
It might not be unstoppable but it is extremely strong. No doubt one of the most powerful unit compositions in game. The problem I started before is jsut that there is no good way to engage. None at all. To prevent movemnet with force field reuqires a lot of micro. We can see that MC's forcefield looks dominating while watching Tyler's forcefield is a lot more meh. Fungal however is very very easy to use to trap units and then get picked apart by broodlings. Also even if you screw up fungal 1 time no worries, your 9 range broodlord's movement stopping ability(broodlings) buys time against stimmed terrans(unlike forcefield if you screw up and marauder is in your face its pretty gg). My main problem is just that it is impossible to attack in air or ground(especially ground)
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/
Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up.
Yeah Nestea is a horrible Zerg player for losing to multiple bunker rushes in recent matches.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
Race icons give away people's perspectives on balance way too often.
With the maps getting bigger and bigger and basically 2 players maps being completely removed from the mappool ( at least in tournaments) bunker rushes will become less and less effective, they are good but not unstoppable even now. A perfectly executed infestor broodlord (baneling) lategame attack however is unstoppable. Even if you snipe the broodlords and emp all the infestors you are forced to unsiege your tanks and the banelings can just roll over your stuff.
bit early to call it unstoppable, not that many games go that late without either player being at a disadvantage. not enough data to make a definite conclusion like that.
It might not be unstoppable but it is extremely strong. No doubt one of the most powerful unit compositions in game. The problem I started before is jsut that there is no good way to engage. None at all. To prevent movemnet with force field reuqires a lot of micro. We can see that MC's forcefield looks dominating while watching Tyler's forcefield is a lot more meh. Fungal however is very very easy to use to trap units and then get picked apart by broodlings. Also even if you screw up fungal 1 time no worries, your 9 range broodlord's movement stopping ability(broodlings) buys time against stimmed terrans(unlike forcefield if you screw up and marauder is in your face its pretty gg). My main problem is just that it is impossible to attack in air or ground(especially ground)
no doubt it's extremely strong. every strategy that is standard is that way because it's extremely strong :D
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks.
On July 05 2011 09:21 Arwanto wrote: pls give hunter seeker missele at least range buff or speed buff T__T
You still need damage buff as well. Hunterseeker only takes 100 damage, you need 3 to kill a single brood.
I don't think it's viable anyway because the zerg can always neural parasite your raven before you can cast a HSM. NP is range 9 and HSM is range 6. Like I said HSM is completely useless.
So us zergs (I'm guilty of this too) complained about toss deathball QQ rage rage OP OP in the same way you terrans are complaining now. But many zergs are now flat out abusing the immobility of the toss army.
Give the game time kids. Blord/Corruptor/Infestor takes AGES to get the right amount of units. Abuse the mid-early late game period with drops, and there's almost no way a zerg trying to tech to this composition can stop you without investing into mutas. It is hard, I definitely agree.
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks.
Please for the love of god zerg players need to stop telling terran that we have to experiment more. I have been f****** around with HSM for a few days recently and I know plenty of other terran who tried out ravens in different matchups (HSM specifically) I'm sick and tired of zerg players thinking they know anything about terran.
HSM gets outranged by NP why would anyone go raven vs infestors when they get simply outranged? Think -> post please.
First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads
But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now.
Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak).
Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now.
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to).
Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes.
Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play.
Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much
Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it).
Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best.
My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations
If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts.
If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flame on
I've watched this guy's stream and he definitely knows what he's talking about. I wasn't going to post in this thread since it's mostly a bunch of noobies who don't really know what they are talking about, with a few pros sprinkled in who's voices are drowned by the masses.
The truth is that Infestor+BL is too stong in both ZvP and ZvT. Blizzard has even admitted to ZvP being so difficult for Protoss. I don't think ZvT is much different, but i don't have any real experience in ZvP so it's hard to say.
for people who are saying "just make ghosts." that actually is not a very viable solution since that requires researching mobius reactor, and switching with/or building barracks with tech labs. Additionally, Ghosts nerf the dps of your army, since stimmed marines do about 12 dps vs ground units while stimmed, and ghosts only do about 7.5. Furthermore, the number of Ghosts you need for them to be effective is absurd, since each ghost gets about 75 energy, which is 3 snipes or 1 emp, with mobius upgrade. I'm not going to crunch the numbers, but it is very difficult (and by very difficult, i mean I don't think it's actually possible in practice) to trade cost effectively with snipe on BLs or Infestors, and is impossible to do so against Ultras, if they are thrown in the mix. Furthermore, in practice, how do you actually get ghosts in range to use their abilities, without exposing your entire army, and or the ghosts, and having them die without a good trade?
To people who say "just split your shit!" that's not necessarily a good idea either because it makes infantry less effective against mass speedlings, especially if they have the crack upgrade. Assuming that zerg has excess amounts of minerals since they are investing soooo much gas in infestors and Broodlords, you can expect shit tons of speedlings late, which not only trade more cost effeciently with spread out marines, they are also cheaper and build faster.
One thing Beasty doesn't mention is what Broodlords do to a terran army. With BLs of the field, Tanks become nearly useless, since they are forced to unsiege and thus Terran now has no defense against a mass zergling+baneling attack.
Finally, for those saying terran needs vikings against BLs, are you forgetting how to make BLs? Corrupters beat vikings 1on1 if they get the first hit, and zerg will almost always have more corrupters than vikings because they have teched to BLs, and probably already had a spire before hive tech, whereas Terran needs to cut medivacs to get vikings. Also, what does terran do when all the corrupters and broods die? now our ground army is weaker because of the resources needed for Vikings and the lack of medivacs. When all of Terrans Viking die, you can morph them into Broods and they continue to rape.
On July 05 2011 09:30 Dommk wrote: First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads
But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now.
Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak).
Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now.
Protoss don't go VR/Colossus/Void off 3 base because it can be fungaled, meaning patch 1.3 worked.
If they removed the fungal buff, they would be back to doing it.
On July 05 2011 09:30 Dommk wrote: First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads
But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now.
Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak).
Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now.
by the way, I am Zerg. I am not saying that it is OP, the intention was to get the community's feelings towards this.
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp)
As the ONLY things you are micoing here are ghosts, why not just take a bit of time before the engagement (you have time to do this because YOU are engaging) to think about this... SPLIT THE GHOSTS BEFORE YOU GO IN. If he has an overseer or 2, snipe them asap, then proceed to emp all the infestors (even if he notices you at this point, he can only fungal 1 or 2 ghosts at a time) I say this as a lowly platinum terran who has tried it with success in the past, so if i can do it, why can't the pros?
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
Mid masters terran here and im not sure what all the fuss is about with infestor broodlord. I actually never see them so i cant really comment. You see i dont play late game tvz. I learned a long time ago that if you want to beat zerg then you gotta kill them in under 20 minutes (or atleast keep them on low bases). Zerg's late game has always been scary to me so my solution is to just not go there. Trade armies and keep the game low economy and you wont see a single broodlord the entire game.
On July 05 2011 08:50 Dalguno wrote: I haven't read the comments in this thread yet, but here is my take.
In ZvT, I skip mutas for infestors. I use them defensively to take my third, and deny my opponents third with multipronged ling attacks (drops, nydus, attack at main while attacking third, etc.). What I've found is that even when my opponent sees me using my infestors heavily, they still refuse to make ghosts. I am a highish master league player, and it amazes me that most terrans still refuse to make the uni that hard-counters the unit I'm making, and with decent micro, neutralizes them.
Ghosts don't neutralize infestor and midgame you don't have enough gas (off 2-3 bases) to build tanks , medivacs and ghosts (especially not off 2 bases). Ghosts are not a viable counter to infestors, you can emp them but it doesnt kill them and they can regain their energy then. If you really go for alot of ghosts midgame you wont have enough tanks to defend vs ling baneling attacks or if a fungal hits your marines you wont have enough medivacs to heal your marines properly.
zergs really need to stop with this "we know how to play your race" bs . you dont know anything about terran.
Just as zergs don't have the gas to make infestors, mutas, blings, etc. constantly. Rather, they invest in infestors and hold on to them as long as they can with careful micro. Ghosts are a gas investment, yes, but with careful micro can be kept alive. You don't need copious amounts of them, but you do need to keep them alive. Saying that ghosts are not a viable counter to infestors is a pretty ignorant thing to say. What are they meant to be used against? Offensive queens?
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
^^^^^Retard
If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up.
On July 05 2011 09:37 RedMosquito wrote: Mid masters terran here and im not sure what all the fuss is about with infestor broodlord. I actually never see them so i cant really comment. You see i dont play late game tvz. I learned a long time ago that if you want to beat zerg then you gotta kill them in under 20 minutes (or atleast keep them on low bases). Zerg's late game has always been scary to me so my solution is to just not go there. Trade armies and keep the game low economy and you wont see a single broodlord the entire game.
In other words you are a cheesy noob that refuses to play a straight up macro game? because there is no way you "never" get into lategame vs zerg unless you hardcore cheese or all-in every game.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
^^^^^Retard
If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up.
This is the point of the OP. If it is unbeatable, WHY aren't korean zergs doing it. If it is not, WHAT can terrans do?
On July 05 2011 08:53 xHassassin wrote: Here's an idea: Either have fungal growth do damage like plague did, or have it pause movement like maelstorm did. Not both.
Or increase the manaa cost of fungal (at 75 manna) since in one spell it takes 3 parts of 3 other casters
High Templar psionic storm for damage, 75 manna cost
Sentry force field prevents micro, 50 manna cost
Ghost Emp shows cloaked units, 75 manna cost
Now fungal does not do all 3 abilitys as well as the individual one. But fungal is a great deal at 75 manna to get parts of 3 other spell casters in one unit.
Imo the issue with infestors or more specificly with fungal is that on paper ghots should counter it, but in practice its harder to land an emp than a fungal, landing an emp doesnt mean there wont be still additional fungals coming your way, and landing an emp doesnt mean you actualy won the battle while a couple of fungals can pretty much wipe half of your army.
A common situation is, you move out to meet the enemy army, you send your ghosts to emp, they take point, land a couple of emps then can fungaled and wiped by zerglings/banelings.
Its a very similar situation to HT, you dance around trying to EMP them, barely hit 1 HT then you either get swarmed by the rest of their army and/or get feedbacked.
So the thing is that EMP is only truly effective when you catch a bunch of infestors/HT clumped up and completely out of position, so basicly if the enemy isnt paying atention. Also stealth is unrealiable as it will drain the energy really fast and at some point you will have to choose between the cloak or your abilities besides trying to dodge stealth detection, so trying to get a good position with it is something very theoretical.
TL;DR: On paper ghosts should counter infestors in practice its easier said than done.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
^^^^^Retard
If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up.
No it's not terran favored at all. Currently in GSL the win ratio is at around 50%, at MLG and NASL group stages, terran got dominated. how can you say it's terran favored when in every single league zerg has a higher win ratio right now?
And we are talking about lategame tvz not tvz in general, how do you not understand this?
On July 05 2011 09:27 Flonomenalz wrote: So us zergs (I'm guilty of this too) complained about toss deathball QQ rage rage OP OP in the same way you terrans are complaining now. But many zergs are now flat out abusing the immobility of the toss army.
Give the game time kids. Blord/Corruptor/Infestor takes AGES to get the right amount of units. Abuse the mid-early late game period with drops, and there's almost no way a zerg trying to tech to this composition can stop you without investing into mutas. It is hard, I definitely agree.
Destiny showed us you can get it around the 15min Mark with 3/3 upgrades T_T. Also the Death Ball ended due to FG on the death ball.
On July 05 2011 09:30 Dommk wrote: First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads
But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now.
Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak).
Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now.
Protoss don't go VR/Colossus/Void off 3 base because it can be fungaled, meaning patch 1.3 worked.
If they removed the fungal buff, they would be back to doing it.
Talking about the units individually. Not a specific comp. Hardly think it would be any more viable than it is now, people weren't using Infestors before at all. Though I agree old infestors were too weak, new might be too strong, but no point going on a witch hunt now, give it some time.
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks.
Please for the love of god zerg players need to stop telling terran that we have to experiment more. I have been f****** around with HSM for a few days recently and I know plenty of other terran who tried out ravens in different matchups (HSM specifically) I'm sick and tired of zerg players thinking they know anything about terran.
HSM gets outranged by NP why would anyone go raven vs infestors when they get simply outranged? Think -> post please.
Zergs were doing bad Zergs experimented more Zergs started doing better
Seems to melike you aren't looking for a solution, you already made up your mind.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
Wouldn't solve it because the zerg can just back off then and engage somwhere else.
Tanks not auto focusing broodlings just needs to be default settings and it's a good start imo
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks.
Please for the love of god zerg players need to stop telling terran that we have to experiment more. I have been f****** around with HSM for a few days recently and I know plenty of other terran who tried out ravens in different matchups (HSM specifically) I'm sick and tired of zerg players thinking they know anything about terran.
HSM gets outranged by NP why would anyone go raven vs infestors when they get simply outranged? Think -> post please.
Zergs were doing bad Zergs experimented more Zergs started doing better
Seems to melike you aren't looking for a solution, you already made up your mind.
This is a joke right? Zerg got buffed, that's the reason they are doing better, nothing else.
On July 05 2011 09:30 Dommk wrote: First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads
But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now.
Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak).
Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now.
Protoss don't go VR/Colossus/Void off 3 base because it can be fungaled, meaning patch 1.3 worked.
If they removed the fungal buff, they would be back to doing it.
Talking about the units individually. Not a specific comp. Hardly think it would be any more viable than it is now, people weren't using Infestors before at all. Though I agree old infestors were too weak, new might be too strong, but no point going on a witch hunt now, give it some time.
Personally I think FG should not be able to kill anything like Plague, which left units with 1hp. Also take away the hold(The issue with this is PvZ where Blink is Imba with out FG).
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
^^^^^Retard
If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up.
No it's not terran favored at all. Currently in GSL the win ratio is at around 50%, at MLG and NASL group stages, terran got dominated. how can you say it's terran favored when in every single league zerg has a higher win ratio right now?
And we are talking about lategame tvz not tvz in general, how do you not understand this?
Zergs would just turtle heavily until infestor broodlord if that was the case, how do you not understand this?
TvZ should favor the Zerg lategame, it makes no sense if Terrans have a much stronger early game and an equal late game, that's the definition of overpowered.
In fact, your comment alone pretty much shows that Terrans have a 50% or higher win-rate against Zergs (although if you take TOP Ts vs. TOP Zs the terrans have a much higher win-rate, but whatever) which means that if you want Infestors nerfed you're going to need to change something else to make the match-up balanced. Personally, I dislike the infestor as it's a rather boring unit that has become more of a "damage dealer" spell caster rather than a support/root spellcaster to help banelings hit, so I wouldn't mind things changing.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
Wouldn't solve it because the zerg can just back off then and engage somwhere else.
Tanks not auto focusing broodlings just needs to be default settings and it's a good start imo
Hmmm... maybe completely aside of a buff, what if terrans found a suitable alternative to tanks? Would that solve the problem or part of it?
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
^^^^^Retard
If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up.
No it's not terran favored at all. Currently in GSL the win ratio is at around 50%, at MLG and NASL group stages, terran got dominated. how can you say it's terran favored when in every single league zerg has a higher win ratio right now?
And we are talking about lategame tvz not tvz in general, how do you not understand this?
Zergs would just turtle heavily until infestor broodlord if that was the case, how do you not understand this?
TvZ should favor the Zerg lategame, it makes no sense if Terrans have a much stronger early game and an equal late game, that's the definition of overpowered.
Ok then, I guess you don't want the game to be balanced properly, let's just buff all terran early game units and zerg lategame units, because at the end terran is stronger early game and zerg is stronger lategame, so it's perfectly fine.
did it perhaps ever cross your mind that some of us terran dont want to cheese or all in vs zerg every game and play a proper macro game all the way up to tier 3 units (not saying terran is going bcs or something like that, but you know what I mean, lategame...)? Not every terran is a chees all inner. But it's frustrating when you want to play a macro game but you know that as soon as your opponent gets BL / Infestor you can't win. Doesnt affect cheesers or all inners, but it affects players like me because I like long macro games.
And korean terrans/zergs are not using this style yet, so you can't tell if they are succesful with it or not, we will have to wait, but I am almost certain that when destiny can do it, losira will do it twice as good.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
Wouldn't solve it because the zerg can just back off then and engage somwhere else.
Tanks not auto focusing broodlings just needs to be default settings and it's a good start imo
Hmmm... maybe completely aside of a buff, what if terrans found a suitable alternative to tanks? Would that solve the problem or part of it?
For me the biggest problem is the fact that you have to unsiege and lose all your splash damage vs mass ling baneling and just get steamrolled, if terran had something like a collossus that doesnt have friendly fire it would be way easier to deal with it, still not easy but way easier.
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
I don't know what you are trying to smoke. So what happens if terran micro their units perfectly then. Just go explore unit tester maps. Marine vikings tank of the same cost can handle infestors broods. Not to mention, bio mech is more mobile than infestors broods. If you are forced to engage their broods, it just means that one of the following, 1 You have already lost your map control and forced to engage at your most vulnerable mining base. 2 It's a map thats relatively "thin", full of chokes, where you cant avoid the broods in the middle of map and just aim for the zerg's expansion. That means it's your own fault for not trying to make use of the map layout to your advantage in the early-mid game.
If you only look at infestors by itself, they are the strongest when compared to other spellcasters. If you look at the synergy with units of their race, they are definitely 1 of the weakest. Spellcaster units need to be covered by ranged units, and zerg is lacking in that aspect except BLs. One thing not explored much yet is spamming of spines + infestors to defend a choke. Spines force units to clump during engagement which you can easily fungal under the protection of spine range.
Broodlords/infestor/corruptor combination is overrated. If they get a large enough of that deathball, which your forces are not big enough to handle it, it's definitely your own mistake. Zerg deathball is not as easy to obtain as toss'. To win games using broods, zerg must have a large enough economic advantage OR put heavy pressure constantly while transitioning into broods so that the opponent cant even afford to get air tech or risk getting rolled by the zerg ground army. Just look at some of the gsl games, nowadays players lose games more by transitioning too fast into broods. Broods are more immobile than mech -_- They are only good against players who are relatively passive (western scene), but only tend to be so-so against aggressive players (koreans).
Infestors-first tech is quite fragile. You can't really get that many infestors on 2 bases gas. All terran need to do is do try to waste infestors energy or snipe them by using small amt. of forces. Again this is why infestors-first are not that prefered in the korean scene because of how aggressive the opponents are. Right now in ZvP, if you get infestors, you need to get a critical mass to be useful due to reduced fungal duration. They require work 3 bases to work better due to ability to churn out more ground army to support the infestors. Always try to trade ground army but retain all the infestors. Right now ZvP is so retarded due to the fact that zerg can only afford to tech switch and upgrade for different techs on 3 bases in a match-up where unit comp. counter vs unit comp. counter is so important, while toss tech switch is so much more effective with their shared ground upgrades. Assuming twilight and robo are staple buildings, toss is only 1 building away from ht or colo tech. Whenever i use infestors, i get the feeling if only fungal still have their old fungal duration, so i can just produce 2 or so for a supporting role, instead of committing heavily into that tech and getting smashed by smart toss who go straight into ht tech when they scouted them. Though 80% of toss on ladder have really poor game understanding and cry infestors OP after their robo tech get crushed.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL.
^^^^^^Retard
Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right?
^^^^^Retard
If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up.
No it's not terran favored at all. Currently in GSL the win ratio is at around 50%, at MLG and NASL group stages, terran got dominated. how can you say it's terran favored when in every single league zerg has a higher win ratio right now?
And we are talking about lategame tvz not tvz in general, how do you not understand this?
Zergs would just turtle heavily until infestor broodlord if that was the case, how do you not understand this?
TvZ should favor the Zerg lategame, it makes no sense if Terrans have a much stronger early game and an equal late game, that's the definition of overpowered.
Ok then, I guess you don't want the game to be balanced properly, let's just buff all terran early game units and zerg lategame units, because at the end terran is stronger early game and zerg is stronger lategame, so it's perfectly fine.
did it perhaps ever cross your mind that some of us terran dont want to cheese or all in vs zerg every game and play a proper macro game all the way up to tier 3 units (not saying terran is going bcs or something like that, but you know what I mean, lategame...)? Not every terran is a chees all inner. But it's frustrating when you want to play a macro game but you know that as soon as your opponent gets BL / Infestor you can't win. Doesnt affect cheesers or all inners, but it affects players like me because I like long macro games.
And korean terran are not using this style yet, so you can't tell if they are succesful with it or not, we will have to wait, but I am almost certain that when destiny can do it, losira will do it twice as good.
Like I said, you would have to change something else if you nerf the infestor. That's the point.
But you can play late-game against Zerg, you're just at a disadvantage. Just like in BW. Like many have said, Zerg t3 is extremely immobile and prone to getting dropped, so it's far from an "unbeatable" combination as you're claiming. It's been seen and dismantled several times in the GSL already.
Oh, and as for the comment about Zerg being "unbeatable" with perfect play, it's actually the other way around. If a terran micro'd perfectly (which is just as unlikely as a perfect Zerg) banelings and infestors would be useless.
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks.
Please for the love of god zerg players need to stop telling terran that we have to experiment more. I have been f****** around with HSM for a few days recently and I know plenty of other terran who tried out ravens in different matchups (HSM specifically) I'm sick and tired of zerg players thinking they know anything about terran.
HSM gets outranged by NP why would anyone go raven vs infestors when they get simply outranged? Think -> post please.
Zergs were doing bad Zergs experimented more Zergs started doing better
Seems to melike you aren't looking for a solution, you already made up your mind.
I'm not sure why zergs are pretending like they as a race have learned to deal with everything the hard way. Zergs have whined a ton, they have been buffed numerous times, while the other races have been nerfed.
Then when terrans start having problems, zergs just tell them to suck it up like they did. Unbelievable.
There is a huge difference. Zergs were actually losing when they were complaining and it was a lasting issue, not one people have sprung up all of a sudden that we haven't seen in pro play much yet. Terrans are complaining while they're dominating every league with 1-4 spots occupied by them in the GSLST. I won't say that the infestor isn't overpowered, but you can't complain about it until there is a lot more experimentation done by top Terrans.
With that being said, I wish Blizzard would slow down on the balancing, I hate when they nerf/buff something since it's been useless/overpowered for 2-3 months, as there were many builds that were amazing in BW that got figured out and countered with time.
On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote: Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
testing it now!
Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D
no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit.
It's still a viable tactic to use when the zerg engages though, use hunter seeker missile and the zerg either has to pull back with his infestors, possibly losing broodlords in the process, or stay and fight and lose infestors.
I have experimented with HSM a bit recently and I honestly think it's bad, you need ALOT of energy on your raven before you can even cast it and it's AOE is ridiculously small, it kills like 5 units at best, there is absolutely no need to run away from it you only need to select the unit that is targeted and pull it away. I don't even think a HSM kills a broodlord if it hits and it only AOE effects 2 if I'm not mistaken, completely useless spell imo
I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks.
Please for the love of god zerg players need to stop telling terran that we have to experiment more. I have been f****** around with HSM for a few days recently and I know plenty of other terran who tried out ravens in different matchups (HSM specifically) I'm sick and tired of zerg players thinking they know anything about terran.
HSM gets outranged by NP why would anyone go raven vs infestors when they get simply outranged? Think -> post please.
Zergs were doing bad Zergs experimented more Zergs started doing better
Seems to melike you aren't looking for a solution, you already made up your mind.
I'm not sure why zergs are pretending like they as a race have learned to deal with everything the hard way. Zergs have whined a ton, they have been buffed numerous times, while the other races have been nerfed.
Then when terrans start having problems, zergs just tell them to suck it up like they did. Unbelievable.
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
Wouldn't solve it because the zerg can just back off then and engage somwhere else.
Tanks not auto focusing broodlings just needs to be default settings and it's a good start imo
Hmmm... maybe completely aside of a buff, what if terrans found a suitable alternative to tanks? Would that solve the problem or part of it?
For me the biggest problem is the fact that you have to unsiege and lose all your splash damage vs mass ling baneling and just get steamrolled, if terran had something like a collossus that doesnt have friendly fire it would be way easier to deal with it, still not easy but way easier.
Planetary fortresses have splash, no FF, and cant be affected by Fungal or NP (and with building armour, theyre not really affected by broodlings/zerglings/infested terrans either). Only problems are that they have less range.
On July 05 2011 09:47 iPBioOrMech wrote: I love how Zergs say ZvT is there best MU, and Protoss say PvT is there best MU, and most terrans say TvT is the best MU. Makes you think..
Lol. All terrans I know says this, including myself. Makes me kinda sad...
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
I don't know what you are trying to smoke. So what happens if terran micro their units perfectly then. Just go explore unit tester maps. Marine vikings tank of the same cost can handle infestors broods.
I honestly stopped reading after this because this is both wrong.
A: Marine viking tank cannot beat infestor broodlord baneling/zergling, it's just not possible, don't even know how you could possibly miss micro the zerg units to lose such a fight B: You say bio mech (tanks!!!!) is more mobile than infestor broodlord, ling baneling? Really? I mean are you even in silver league when you say stuff like this?
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
Wouldn't solve it because the zerg can just back off then and engage somwhere else.
Tanks not auto focusing broodlings just needs to be default settings and it's a good start imo
Hmmm... maybe completely aside of a buff, what if terrans found a suitable alternative to tanks? Would that solve the problem or part of it?
For me the biggest problem is the fact that you have to unsiege and lose all your splash damage vs mass ling baneling and just get steamrolled, if terran had something like a collossus that doesnt have friendly fire it would be way easier to deal with it, still not easy but way easier.
Planetary fortresses have splash, no FF, and cant be affected by Fungal or NP (and with building armour, theyre not really affected by broodlings/zerglings/infested terrans either). Only problems are that they have less range.
Also they can't fucking move. hmmmm....
Yeah might be a problem if you ever plan on attacking the zerg, also it's pretty hard to cover the whole centre of tal darim altar with planetary fortresses, you need alot of money and it takes really long to build command centers + planetaries. cant see it happening in a normal game. (and no mvp vs. dimaga has nothing to do with broodlord infestor baneling)
Well if he loses to bunker rushes then it's due to his own mistakes, bunker rushes aren't unstoppable even if executed perfectly. Infestor Broodlord however CAN NOT be stopped if executed perfectly.
And in 5 years people will look at nesta and laugh at his games today, not to take anything away from this guy but sc2 is still in it's early stages, even nestea is a scrub compared to the best players in 5 years, people will still improve so much more in this game, trust me.
I don't know what you are trying to smoke. So what happens if terran micro their units perfectly then. Just go explore unit tester maps. Marine vikings tank of the same cost can handle infestors broods.
I honestly stopped reading after this because this is both wrong.
A: Marine viking tank cannot beat infestor broodlord baneling/zergling, it's just not possible, don't even know how you could possibly miss micro the zerg units to lose such a fight B: You say bio mech (tanks!!!!) is more mobile than infestor broodlord, ling baneling? Really? I mean are you even in silver league when you say stuff like this?
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this?
Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege.
What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords?
Wouldn't solve it because the zerg can just back off then and engage somwhere else.
Tanks not auto focusing broodlings just needs to be default settings and it's a good start imo
Hmmm... maybe completely aside of a buff, what if terrans found a suitable alternative to tanks? Would that solve the problem or part of it?
For me the biggest problem is the fact that you have to unsiege and lose all your splash damage vs mass ling baneling and just get steamrolled, if terran had something like a collossus that doesnt have friendly fire it would be way easier to deal with it, still not easy but way easier.
Planetary fortresses have splash, no FF, and cant be affected by Fungal or NP (and with building armour, theyre not really affected by broodlings/zerglings/infested terrans either). Only problems are that they have less range.
Also they can't fucking move. hmmmm....
Yeah might be a problem if you ever plan on attacking the zerg, also it's pretty hard to cover the whole of tal darim altar with planetary fortresses, you need alot of money and it takes really long to build command centers + planetaries. cant see it happening in a normal game. (and no mvp vs. dimaga has nothing to do with broodlord infestor baneling)
Yes. With perfect micro you can easily beat that combination. If a terran had perfect micro they would be unbeatable.
I think the best fix is to reduced infestor damage to armored units. Basically bring infestor back to the original.
All benefits: longer ensared time-a lot better versus blinkstalker which is extremely strong right now(the stop movment effect is a lot more important
still good versus marines=longer snare+baneling=win
makes viking not die like paper planes when fungaled(seriously comon, 2-3 fungals and all viking dies)
I think zerg has discovered many many vways to defeat void ray/colossus camp. Infestors were important in pure ling/bling counter but other counters still works.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/8/8b/Infestor.png/200px-Infestor.png)
