EPTNo, this isn't a Terran imba QQ. Terrans have the worst macro setup in the game, so they aren't overpowered despite having units that are on average stronger than those of the other two races.
A (honest) look at the Infestor and ZvT lategame - Page 12
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
No, this isn't a Terran imba QQ. Terrans have the worst macro setup in the game, so they aren't overpowered despite having units that are on average stronger than those of the other two races. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:39 Gimmickkz wrote: wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o no, im letting you use every game MMA has been in my post addresses everything entirely. I will find it for you now since you really want to know in a previous post this is what i wrote. I addresses completely all of your "mma uses drops" arguments If you say "the terran should pressure the zerg and deal enough damage to have a big enough lead in the lategame to win" i will say hell no again, not only is that a bad design concept, but from the way the game looks right now it seems like thats not even how the current state of the game is. It will take many pro games to see the truth but it seems to me like as long as the zerg is competent and reacts properly, he can defend pressure / drops properly and always be out ahead. Sure, MMA beat losira with drops in MLG. but im not talking about that. lets just say hypothetically losira was actually playing badly and it is possible for smart zergs to stop/defend that aggression. ask yourself this question. IF, remember this is a hypothetical question. IF ... IF dropping a smart zerg EVEN for the best / greatest terran like MMA was always a bad idea because a smart zerg could always defend properly to make it so the terran invested more than the damage he did, why the hell would dropping be a good idea in high level play? now you see, that hypothetical question depends on alot of opinions. some people out there think its possible for terrans to drop in a way where its a good thing and zergs even if they play perfect are always behind from it. some people think thats not true. WHICH GROUP OF PEOPLE IS CORRECT? honestly theres no damn way to know the truth right now. and all im saying is even if the first group of people were correct, i still dont think thats a good design concept | ||
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:39 Gimmickkz wrote: wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o If every terran player was MMA, this discussion wouldn't be happening. To say that in order to beat zerg late game you must be one of the best players in the world is terrible logic. | ||
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:39 Gimmickkz wrote: wait wait wait, you're using the one game of destiny vs bomber as an example and won't let me use like every game mma's been in ? :o Because in those games the zerg failed to defend the drops, if the zerg played better he would have lost way less to the drops (Losira is nowhere near being a perfect or gosu zerg, hes good, but in 5 years zerg players will look at losira's games today and think "how did the not defend this drop?") in the future zergs will get better and better at multitasking and defending drops, then it will be almost impossible to drop a really good zerg and I can assure you that as soon as the best zergs learn how to defend terran aggression and drops with minimal losses they will absolutely dominate the tvz matchup. | ||
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Gimmickkz
154 Posts
oh wait User was warned for this post | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to). Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes. Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play. Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much  Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it). Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best. My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts. If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Flame on everything has been said we can close the discussion. | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP? Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly. | ||
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
Don't you think he might be a little biased? | ||
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament. Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP? Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly. Nobody is talking about terran being underpowered, it's the lategame composition of broodlord infestor that is overpowered and impossible to deal with. (if the zerg doesn't screw it up) | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament. Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP? Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly. i actually agree with this post im talking about about ZvT POSSIBLY being imbalanced. but the truth is, i dont know i say, we should wait. in a few months if every zerg is whoopping every terran like candy and terran has like a 10% winrate against zerg in GSL, then thats when we can safely say theres an imbalance. but right now, i say waiting is the best idea because not all avenues have been discovered yet | ||
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament. Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP? Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly. Nobody is whining about Terran being underpowered. This discussion is about mass infestor + Blord and how terrans can possibly deal with that. Furthermore, korean zergs do not play the mass infestor style that foreign zergs do, which may be why they don't see as much success. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
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Elovia
13 Posts
I think the biggest problem here is the infestor - ghost - ht circle. They're all good against each other, which IMO is pretty bad game design. It comes down to who can feedback/emp/fungal first, and if you loose that battle, you may have just lost the entire game | ||
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:44 SafeAsCheese wrote: Beastyqt has the lowest zV win rate of the entire first 2 pages of the ELO ranking of terrans, only him and Spades are below 50% Don't you think he might be a little biased? There are many tournament results not being added and if you look from ELO rankings (I checked Kas for example) it says his "weakest" matchup is TvT based on % wins and its his strongest matchup | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:31 branflakes14 wrote: Can you also check whether or not burrowing while a missile is chasing you causes it to stop chasing? Just wondering as all. :D no, burrow doesn't cancel it. and it looks like infestors are a little faster (off creep) than the missile so if the zerg reacts in time it shouldn't ever hit. | ||
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote: The thing to concider here that people are negleting is that TvZ end with 2rax or from the first push 50% of the time, even at pro level. :/ Yeah, IF the zerg is not good enough to defend it. But does that mean that there should be a lategame strategy that is just unbeatable if executed flawlessly? That's illogical. Because even the best 2 rax can be defended if the zerg doesn't screw it up. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:43 fraktoasters wrote: OMG after Protoss got 1st,3rd,4th at a GSL followed by 2nd place at the next GSL, people started saying toss was underpowered because they didn't do well in the super tournament. Now after 6 terrans in the top 8 in said super tournament (not to mention that Nestea lost to a Terran), people are saying terrans are UP? Look. I understand balance whine, really. But can you at least wait a bit after your race wins a major tournament before saying you're UP? It just looks silly. This is NOT the point. What I said is: "Is this kind of play too strong, does Terran have an answer to it? If it is that strong, why isn't it used more on korea, when you see the Terran dominance on their ladder?" I'm not saying terran is UP, what I want to understand is why the korean zergs won't use this style more; Is it because foreign zergs are ahead in the metagame or is it that korean terrans can deal with it without troubles? Does it have many weaknesses to the point where it is not considered "solid" at all? Or is it just that korean zergs haven't figured out the strength of this? | ||
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Jedi Master
Germany185 Posts
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
In ZvT, I skip mutas for infestors. I use them defensively to take my third, and deny my opponents third with multipronged ling attacks (drops, nydus, attack at main while attacking third, etc.). What I've found is that even when my opponent sees me using my infestors heavily, they still refuse to make ghosts. I am a highish master league player, and it amazes me that most terrans still refuse to make the uni that hard-counters the unit I'm making, and with decent micro, neutralizes them. I don't really use infestors much in ZvP, but in watching CatZ's stream frequently (a heavy user of tobacco as well as infestors) it still appears that even at GM levels of play, players are not efficiently using HT's feedback, though in general it seems to be used more often than EMP. That's just my take from my own experience, though. | ||
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