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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:24 xbankx wrote: You still need damage buff as well. Hunterseeker only takes 100 damage, you need 3 to kill a single brood. I don't think it's viable anyway because the zerg can always neural parasite your raven before you can cast a HSM. NP is range 9 and HSM is range 6. Like I said HSM is completely useless. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
Give the game time kids. Blord/Corruptor/Infestor takes AGES to get the right amount of units. Abuse the mid-early late game period with drops, and there's almost no way a zerg trying to tech to this composition can stop you without investing into mutas. It is hard, I definitely agree. | ||
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:26 DizzyDrone wrote: I don't think moving out a single infestor that's targetted by a hsm is as easy as you make it out to me, but I haven't played in a while so I won't argue against you. I just feel a lot of people are dismissing strategies a bit too easily in this thread. I've even seen people posting that drops are bad because if a zerg plays perfectly they won't work. Fun fact: nobody plays perfectly.If a Terran played perfectly, nobody would be using banelings because of this. If a Zerg played perfectly nobody would be using Siege Tanks because of this. I feel like Terran need to experiment a lot more with units other then marines, medivacs and siege tanks. Please for the love of god zerg players need to stop telling terran that we have to experiment more. I have been f****** around with HSM for a few days recently and I know plenty of other terran who tried out ravens in different matchups (HSM specifically) I'm sick and tired of zerg players thinking they know anything about terran. HSM gets outranged by NP why would anyone go raven vs infestors when they get simply outranged? Think -> post please. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
 But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now. Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak). Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now. | ||
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: I've talked with a lot of progamer terrans and zergs in past couple of weeks, all terrans think fungal is too strong - I read some people say "lol just split your marines" etc and thats true you can split your marines but you cant do it always, sometimes you might be moving out and zerg attacks you at same time and he does 5-6 fungals and kills your 200/200 army with it along with lings/ultras which is kinda sad (or just engagement happens on places you dont expect them to). Even though zergs dont admit publicly that infestors are too strong or even op, the zergs I practise with admit that as soon they have infestor/broodlord comp ready its pretty much free win in 99% of cases (unless they lost 50 drones on start and terran lost 0 which is lost game no matter what you go for) and that infestors themselfs can win you games you really shouldnt win sometimes. Solutions..lets see - drops? Sure they are good once you start doing them first time you will kill couple of drones, next thing that will happen is zerg will make 2-3 spine crawlers at each expand and leave 5-6 lings which makes you drops useless for rest of the game (with good overlord spread as well in case 2x medivac drops come which every zerg knows to do at this point). Droping is very good keeping zerg busy, but sooner or later you have to push and deal with infestors - as soon you go for a push zerg will try to push you back and make you "slowpush" from your base to his which takes too much time (because you cant just a-move in front of his natural because of fungal) and by then he gets broodlords out. And no im not whining im just explaining how game goes in TvZ vs infestor based zerg play. Someone mentioned ghosts, I tried playing both - with ghosts and ghost-less army and after doing that you realise ghosts are pretty much useless in TvZ (you can see in that thorzain game someone linked). Lets make a situation, you are both on 3-4 bases, you start making ghosts and zerg will probably have 8-15 infestors at around 20min mark. A good zerg will send lings/overlord/changelings in your army to see what you are making in mid-late game. There's a good chance he will see your ghosts, but lets say he doesnt see them - what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) - from that moment there is no point in making ghosts again because zerg will 1)make 3-4 overseers and 2)make spores. -Ghosts are amazing in TvP, in TvZ? not so much  Best solution to infestor problem I can think of is making units (any units in game) move like in BW and not clumped up like now, it would make game much better (EMP hitting 200/200 protoss ball or fungal killing everything or even storms) and it would just look much better (there is video showing it but I cant remember the link to it). Best solution vs infestors now? Turtle up as hard as you can as terran, do 3-4-5 drops at a time whole game just to buy yourself time to get mass orbital/rax/factory and starport so you can produce units like zergs can and just get mass vikings to deal with broodlords - spread them so fungal cant hit them all together and hope for best. My overall opinion - yes infestors are too strong vs terran, infestors ARE needed vs protoss but its too much in TvZ, since infestors were units that were supposed to snare/slow units like queen has ability in BW and not to be used instead banelings and to allow you to go 12min hive. They were meant to be used in infestor+baneling situations and not in infestors vs world situations If someone is interested I can upload replays of my latest TvZ's that include me killing 200/200 broodlord/infestor/ultra army couple of times on maps like tal'darim without using ghosts. If there are typos...well its late ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Flame on I've watched this guy's stream and he definitely knows what he's talking about. I wasn't going to post in this thread since it's mostly a bunch of noobies who don't really know what they are talking about, with a few pros sprinkled in who's voices are drowned by the masses. The truth is that Infestor+BL is too stong in both ZvP and ZvT. Blizzard has even admitted to ZvP being so difficult for Protoss. I don't think ZvT is much different, but i don't have any real experience in ZvP so it's hard to say. for people who are saying "just make ghosts." that actually is not a very viable solution since that requires researching mobius reactor, and switching with/or building barracks with tech labs. Additionally, Ghosts nerf the dps of your army, since stimmed marines do about 12 dps vs ground units while stimmed, and ghosts only do about 7.5. Furthermore, the number of Ghosts you need for them to be effective is absurd, since each ghost gets about 75 energy, which is 3 snipes or 1 emp, with mobius upgrade. I'm not going to crunch the numbers, but it is very difficult (and by very difficult, i mean I don't think it's actually possible in practice) to trade cost effectively with snipe on BLs or Infestors, and is impossible to do so against Ultras, if they are thrown in the mix. Furthermore, in practice, how do you actually get ghosts in range to use their abilities, without exposing your entire army, and or the ghosts, and having them die without a good trade? To people who say "just split your shit!" that's not necessarily a good idea either because it makes infantry less effective against mass speedlings, especially if they have the crack upgrade. Assuming that zerg has excess amounts of minerals since they are investing soooo much gas in infestors and Broodlords, you can expect shit tons of speedlings late, which not only trade more cost effeciently with spread out marines, they are also cheaper and build faster. One thing Beasty doesn't mention is what Broodlords do to a terran army. With BLs of the field, Tanks become nearly useless, since they are forced to unsiege and thus Terran now has no defense against a mass zergling+baneling attack. Finally, for those saying terran needs vikings against BLs, are you forgetting how to make BLs? Corrupters beat vikings 1on1 if they get the first hit, and zerg will almost always have more corrupters than vikings because they have teched to BLs, and probably already had a spire before hive tech, whereas Terran needs to cut medivacs to get vikings. Also, what does terran do when all the corrupters and broods die? now our ground army is weaker because of the resources needed for Vikings and the lack of medivacs. When all of Terrans Viking die, you can morph them into Broods and they continue to rape. | ||
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:30 Dommk wrote: First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now. Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak). Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now. Protoss don't go VR/Colossus/Void off 3 base because it can be fungaled, meaning patch 1.3 worked. If they removed the fungal buff, they would be back to doing it. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:30 Dommk wrote: First it was Protoss with the "Honest look at Colossus/Voidrays/Forcefields" threads But no one thinks they are even OP at all. Especially Colossus, there was a lot of complaint about that unit but I doubt you would find anyone who thinks it is even remotely OP now. Though I do agree Broodlord Infestor can get ridiculous (eg Lalush vs HuK) it is important to recognize that time usually "heals all wounds" (so to speak). Besides, David Kim has already said that the balance team is already looking into it, Blizzard has done a great job with patches and recognizing what is and isn't imbalanced. If the community actually was a barometer for what was balanced or not then Force Fields, Colossus and Voidrays would have already been nerfed to smithereens and Toss would be lying some where in a gutter right now. by the way, I am Zerg. I am not saying that it is OP, the intention was to get the community's feelings towards this. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
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Miest
New Zealand21 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:27 Beastyqt wrote: what usually happends is next. For his 8-15 infestors you probably need just as many ghosts - you cloak run in - as soon you do first 1-2-3 emp's zerg will realise whats going on and fungal that bunch of ghosts which will result in them dying (you have to emp each infestor twice to get his energy off - infestors arent small as hts to be able to emp 7-8 of them with 1 emp) As the ONLY things you are micoing here are ghosts, why not just take a bit of time before the engagement (you have time to do this because YOU are engaging) to think about this... SPLIT THE GHOSTS BEFORE YOU GO IN. If he has an overseer or 2, snipe them asap, then proceed to emp all the infestors (even if he notices you at this point, he can only fungal 1 or 2 ghosts at a time) I say this as a lowly platinum terran who has tried it with success in the past, so if i can do it, why can't the pros? | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote: so what do those of you who think it's OP want? serious question, what do you think would allow you to deal with this? Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege. On July 05 2011 09:36 Skwid1g wrote: I don't get how Terran players can say "it's unbeatable" or anything similar when Terrans are still taking up all top 4 spots in the GSL. ^^^^^^Retard Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right? User was banned for this post. | ||
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RedMosquito
United States280 Posts
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:54 dodrta wrote: Ghosts don't neutralize infestor and midgame you don't have enough gas (off 2-3 bases) to build tanks , medivacs and ghosts (especially not off 2 bases). Ghosts are not a viable counter to infestors, you can emp them but it doesnt kill them and they can regain their energy then. If you really go for alot of ghosts midgame you wont have enough tanks to defend vs ling baneling attacks or if a fungal hits your marines you wont have enough medivacs to heal your marines properly. zergs really need to stop with this "we know how to play your race" bs . you dont know anything about terran. Just as zergs don't have the gas to make infestors, mutas, blings, etc. constantly. Rather, they invest in infestors and hold on to them as long as they can with careful micro. Ghosts are a gas investment, yes, but with careful micro can be kept alive. You don't need copious amounts of them, but you do need to keep them alive. Saying that ghosts are not a viable counter to infestors is a pretty ignorant thing to say. What are they meant to be used against? Offensive queens? | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:36 dodrta wrote: Stopping tanks from aut focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege. ^^^^^^Retard Because this has anything to do with broodlord infestor being unstoppable for terran, right? ^^^^^Retard If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up. | ||
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:37 RedMosquito wrote: Mid masters terran here and im not sure what all the fuss is about with infestor broodlord. I actually never see them so i cant really comment. You see i dont play late game tvz. I learned a long time ago that if you want to beat zerg then you gotta kill them in under 20 minutes (or atleast keep them on low bases). Zerg's late game has always been scary to me so my solution is to just not go there. Trade armies and keep the game low economy and you wont see a single broodlord the entire game. In other words you are a cheesy noob that refuses to play a straight up macro game? because there is no way you "never" get into lategame vs zerg unless you hardcore cheese or all-in every game. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:36 dodrta wrote: Stopping tanks from auto focusing broodlings would be a good start, so that way you don't get steamrolled by banelings when you have to unsiege. What if they changed it so PDD affects brood lords? | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:38 Skwid1g wrote: ^^^^^Retard If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up. This is the point of the OP. If it is unbeatable, WHY aren't korean zergs doing it. If it is not, WHAT can terrans do? | ||
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jere
United States121 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:53 xHassassin wrote: Here's an idea: Either have fungal growth do damage like plague did, or have it pause movement like maelstorm did. Not both. Or increase the manaa cost of fungal (at 75 manna) since in one spell it takes 3 parts of 3 other casters High Templar psionic storm for damage, 75 manna cost Sentry force field prevents micro, 50 manna cost Ghost Emp shows cloaked units, 75 manna cost Now fungal does not do all 3 abilitys as well as the individual one. But fungal is a great deal at 75 manna to get parts of 3 other spell casters in one unit. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
A common situation is, you move out to meet the enemy army, you send your ghosts to emp, they take point, land a couple of emps then can fungaled and wiped by zerglings/banelings. Its a very similar situation to HT, you dance around trying to EMP them, barely hit 1 HT then you either get swarmed by the rest of their army and/or get feedbacked. So the thing is that EMP is only truly effective when you catch a bunch of infestors/HT clumped up and completely out of position, so basicly if the enemy isnt paying atention. Also stealth is unrealiable as it will drain the energy really fast and at some point you will have to choose between the cloak or your abilities besides trying to dodge stealth detection, so trying to get a good position with it is something very theoretical. TL;DR: On paper ghosts should counter infestors in practice its easier said than done. | ||
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dodrta
Austria29 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:38 Skwid1g wrote: ^^^^^Retard If it was unbeatable Terrans would be losing to Zergs. Please use your rather small brain to comprehend this. TvZ is still a T favored match-up. No it's not terran favored at all. Currently in GSL the win ratio is at around 50%, at MLG and NASL group stages, terran got dominated. how can you say it's terran favored when in every single league zerg has a higher win ratio right now? And we are talking about lategame tvz not tvz in general, how do you not understand this? | ||
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