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On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords. Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before  Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling
Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
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On July 05 2011 08:13 roymarthyup wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
i only have one piece of input for this thread
i am completely sick of all these noobs saying "lol, a terran should pressure the zerg, a terran should drop the zerg like MMA"
listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
Are you telling me lategame ZvT should be instant win for the zerg? hell no
lategame ZvT should be a battle of tactics and unit making decisions and knowing where to attack and trying to control the map as well as you can. it should NOT be "terran must pressure the zerg and try to win before lategame or he auto loses"
If you say "the terran should pressure the zerg and deal enough damage to have a big enough lead in the lategame to win" i will say hell no again, not only is that a bad design concept, but from the way the game looks right now it seems like thats not even how the current state of the game is. It will take many pro games to see the truth but it seems to me like as long as the zerg is competent and reacts properly, he can defend pressure / drops properly and always be out ahead.
Sure, MMA beat losira with drops in MLG. but im not talking about that. lets just say hypothetically losira was actually playing badly and it is possible for smart zergs to stop/defend that aggression.
ask yourself this question. IF, remember this is a hypothetical question. IF ... IF dropping a smart zerg EVEN for the best / greatest terran like MMA was always a bad idea because a smart zerg could always defend properly to make it so the terran invested more than the damage he did, why the hell would dropping be a good idea in high level play?
now you see, that hypothetical question depends on alot of opinions.
some people out there think its possible for terrans to drop in a way where its a good thing and zergs even if they play perfect are always behind from it. some people think thats not true.
WHICH GROUP OF PEOPLE IS CORRECT? honestly theres no damn way to know the truth right now. and all im saying is even if the first group of people were correct, i still dont think thats a good design concept
i see no problems with brood lords. but the infestor seems to have a problem later in the game if the zerg can protect them because they just keep regenerating energy which allows to zerg to keep throwing up armies of infested terrans and then fungal bunches of marines when he can. if you fight an army of infested terrans, you might be able to stop it but you just sacrificed units while the zerg only sacrificed energy.
sure, when zergs stupidly A-move their infestors into tanks and they die it makes infestors seem weak. but a smart zerg that actually protects his infestors can show how broken the unit might be
i could talk about balance change ideas but ultimately thats pointless. balance change ideas are a reaction to a game imbalance. the discussion should be if a game imbalance exists, and honestly i dont really know. but if one does exist, i would say the problem is with the infestor (not brood lords or ultras).
i know talking about balance change ideas is dumb, but honestly i think a good fix would be to make fungal growth not slow units and deal the same damage but over 15 seconds and increase the AoE by like 300%. that way terrans could try to repair/heal the damage but it would be doing more damage per energy but it would make mass infestors less powerful in the fungal aspect but they would be just as strong in the infested terran armies / NP aspect
but alas, talking about balance changes is stupid. the real question is whether or not imbalance exists, because balance changes are a REACTION to identified imbalance. so i wont talk about balance change ideas anymore
Go, away.
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On July 05 2011 08:11 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:09 phisku wrote:On July 05 2011 08:02 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote:
with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under). if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[ I'm diamond facing master, thank's. I'm just worried for the lower level player. Empathy... Then why aren't you Master? Just because your facing doesn't mean your winning.
Actually, if you climb up high enough onto the ladder you will go from facing top 8 masters to top 8 diamonds, then back to top masters + grandmasters. It's a weird phenomena where people in diamond will have a higher MMR than many people in masters.
Anywho, back to race wars.
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listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
You sound like Idra.
" QQ If Protoss is not dumb he will do everything perfectly. "
Fun fact: Noone play perfectly. Terrans can make drops work even with Muta or Infestor on the field.
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Since you kindly linked to MrBitter's ZvT guide, he explicitly states that Infestor play sacrifices mobility for being able to win straight up engagements. This is a weakness that many players have not exploited yet (although in Destiny vs Bomber, Bomber basically crushed Destiny with that ealry game drop).
People who say Infestor play is OP are the same people who refuse to give up their old strategies of "Tank Marine push" or "Protoss deathball." Early blinkstalkers are becoming incredibly popular for this reason -- small numbers of Infestors simply can't deal with them. If Zerg has to change in order to combat the inherent disadvantages of their 200/200 made of pure Roach ling hydra baneling whatever, other races and players should learn to adapt as well.
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The theorycrafting here is amazing. Yes, it takes 6 snipes to kill a broodlord, and it also takes 12 to kill an ultralisk. You guys forget some things about ghosts:
- 5 ghosts cost 1000 minerals. Terrans have alot of GAS vs zerg, not alot of MINERALS.
- it is very easy for zerg to overrun you when you have ghosts. Speedlings are amazing against them.
- by the time you got 12 snipes on the ultralisk, your ghosts are dead. The zerg army MOVES guys, you can't just chill and snipe...
In the perfect game, I would have 2 cloacked ghost, I would run towards 12 clumped infestors, I would emp them twice so all the energy would be gone, and I would destroy his infestors with my marines. He would have no detection.
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On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords. Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do.
you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
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On July 05 2011 08:14 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On July 05 2011 08:10 iloveroo wrote:On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote:
well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,.................... you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D: except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg.
that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord
On July 05 2011 08:17 Dente wrote:
The theorycrafting here is amazing. Yes, it takes 6 snipes to kill a broodlord, and it also takes 12 to kill an ultralisk. You guys forget some things about ghosts:
- 5 ghosts cost 1000 minerals. Terrans have alot of GAS vs zerg, not alot of MINERALS.
- it is very easy for zerg to overrun you when you have ghosts. Speedlings are amazing against them.
- by the time you got 12 snipes on the ultralisk, your ghosts are dead. The zerg army MOVES guys, you can't just chill and snipe...
In the perfect game, I would have 2 cloacked ghost, I would run towards 12 clumped infestors, I would emp them twice so all the energy would be gone, and I would destroy his infestors with my marines. He would have no detection.
if you have spare gas, you could spend it on ravens/banshees maybe. ravens can be very powerful with HSM and brood lords cant run away.
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On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:
[quote]
One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords. Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes.
Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
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On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:
[quote]
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords. Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
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On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:
[quote]
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords. Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything.
I have one or two... I can see if I can upload.
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On July 05 2011 08:19 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:14 xbankx wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On July 05 2011 08:10 iloveroo wrote:On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote:
well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,.................... you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D: except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg. that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord
massing ghosts to use energy for snipe is stupid. its nowhere near the damage/energy of infestors and fungal growth. the zerg should also have a bigger economy to support more infestors making it more dumb.
now, mass ghosts combined with tons of orbitals / scans to find all infestors and using EMP might actually be worth it. by using emp to counter the damage of fungal by preventing them from happening, emp should theoretically be more powerful energy-per-energy than fungal as long as you hit 3+ infestors.
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United States7483 Posts
Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
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On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:
[quote]
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then.
Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords -
Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords. Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB.
I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
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On July 05 2011 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
Curious question: can infestors off creep outrun seeker missiles?
I think any unit except high templars can xD
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On July 05 2011 08:16 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +
listen people. drops / aggression are not the end all be all of the matchup. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the drops well without taking too much damage. if the zerg is competent, he will defend the aggression as well.
You sound like Idra. " QQ If Protoss is not dumb he will do everything perfectly. " Fun fact: Noone play perfectly. Terrans can make drops work even with Muta or Infestor on the field.
the game should not be balanced on the assumption that your enemy is bad
as for that zvp mentality, i can say toss 200 food armies can be defeated cost effectively by zerg, easily, the zerg just needs to have brood lords PLUS ultralisks in his army. i havnt seen it in any high level pro game yet, but its true. every time a zerg loses to a 200 food toss army its because he is fighting collossi/storm/voidrays/archons without his own high level units. ive never seen a zerg lose against a 200food toss army if he himself has ultralisks + brood lords peppered into his army.
so, what im saying cannot be proven as true because its never happened in a pro game, however at the same time i can at least say my theoretically zerg army has also never lost to a 200food toss army in a pro game, meaning pro games have currently never ventured into that territory yet, so theres no real pro game evidence to fall back on. but in the unit tester, the zerg 200food army with brood lords / ultras will roll over the toss 200food army i can garuntee that
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On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:
[quote]
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[
What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army.
you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
TvZ is all about making the zerg mess up.
In a perfect world where zerg get to do what he want, terran would never win.
Btw, a heavy infestor player will rarely have baneling too. You just can't support the gas to make corruptor broodlord infestor AND baneling.
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I'd like to see Ghosts from Terrans in the late game against Infestors. Not only can you EMP the suckers, but you've also got Snipe on hand for Brood Lords. Hell, you wouldn't even need Vikings.
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On July 05 2011 08:25 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:21 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:20 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:17 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:09 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 08:05 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 08:04 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:
[quote]
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[
What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army.
you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this. because that's the only point I made right? And also, I was emphasizing spliting before a fight, because you do that and iuno, try to use those pretty ghosts of yours. you don't even need to micro during the fight too much. I've done it before Yeah sure you have, I highly doubt you ever played terran or you might be some type of new flash. Even top terran pros complain about broodlord/infestor, but yeah splitting your marines pre battle is totally solving the match up, it prevents tanks from having to unsiege and broodlings from attacking your marines, it even stops banelings from rolling over your tanks when they are unsieged or infestors from fungaling all your units. You only have to split, easy. Read the rest of the conversation before you quote me =[! I'm trying to say splitting your army a little bit pre fight takes away the whole random fungal killing all your marines as you send 20 to kill a ling Which doesn't change anything when it comes down to broodlord infestor rolling over terran lategame, add banelings to that and the terran with unsieged tanks just gets absolutely annihilated and there is nothing you can do. you're right, absolutely nothing, no terran has ever won past 20 minutes. Show me a game where a terran beat broodlord infestor baneling when he wasn't 100 supply ahead and the zerg didn't mess it up. Just link me a replay, or cast or whatever, anything. You should check Morrow vs Nerchio Game 1 on Taldarim Altar of the Shoutcraft tournament by TB. I said "where the zerg didn't mess it up" and "banelings" lrn2read.
Hey, show me a game where that one guy played perfectly, and then lost pl0x.
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On July 05 2011 08:22 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 08:19 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On July 05 2011 08:14 xbankx wrote:On July 05 2011 08:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On July 05 2011 08:10 iloveroo wrote:On July 05 2011 05:36 Limenade wrote:
well since i face pretty much the like top 20in GM consistently and most top T just laugh at infestors cuz they find that infestors are gimicky and easyto out micro if u spread marines the right way and spread tanks the right way then infestors are ez to deal with. Also T has this unit that has really cool spells too i think its called umm....... hmm..... A GHOST?!?!?!? no wary a unit that can EMP and deal snipe for 25 energy to do 45 dmg?!!?!?!? what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .,.................... you do know how much ghosts cost right? they are expensive (200mins/100gas) we can't always make a ton of ghost, especially if they go infestors/broodlords + Show Spoiler +but I do agree w/ you tat you have to spread out marines, that's key in tvz atm infestors - 100 minerals, 150 gas 2 supply brood lords, 300 minerals 250 gas 4 supply corruptors, 150 minerals 100 gas 2 supply and you're talking about ghosts being expensive D: except you forget zerg is always on more bases. Cost a different for different races since 100 gas for toss is worth a lot moer than 100 gas for zerg. that's true, but are ghosts more expensive than all three combined? or even just infestor+brood lord combined? zerg has more economy, but if you let him get THAT much more economy then there would be a problem even if he weren't going infestor/brood lord massing ghosts to use energy for snipe is stupid. its nowhere near the damage/energy of infestors and fungal growth. the zerg should also have a bigger economy to support more infestors making it more dumb. now, mass ghosts combined with tons of orbitals / scans to find all infestors and using EMP might actually be worth it. by using emp to counter the damage of fungal by preventing them from happening, emp should theoretically be more powerful energy-per-energy than fungal as long as you hit 3+ infestors.
EMP doesn't deal any damage whatsoever. Massing ghosts is nonsensical because even IF you counter the infestors you invest way too much into massing a unit that has no other use except for countering infestors. And you are assuming that the terran hits all emps before the zerg hits his fungal, in other words you are assuming that the terran has sick micro and the zerg is a noob.
On July 05 2011 08:27 branflakes14 wrote:
I'd like to see Ghosts from Terrans in the late game against Infestors. Not only can you EMP the suckers, but you've also got Snipe on hand for Brood Lords. Hell, you wouldn't even need Vikings.
Really? Snipes kill broodlords? How many ghosts are you going to build then to kill like 8 broodlords? Just wondering. (+ emp all infestors)
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EPT
