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On July 05 2011 07:46 quirl wrote:
As terran player i can savely say there is nothing wrong with infestors. The only reason why infestor/bl or lategame zerg might look insanely op is when the zerg had already won the game 5 minutes ago and just uses it to finish the terran off.
So, if you see that combo and think "how should i ever be able to stop this?" you pretty much messed up your early/midgame.
This is nonsense. Even if you are ahead in supply, once the zerg gets infestor broodlord there is no cost efficient way to beat this unit combination. Pretty sure you don't actually play terran or you have never played against infestor broodlord then.
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On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
exactly this. also i dont think zerg players realise how hard it is to split like champion lol.
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On July 05 2011 07:43 TheOnlyOne wrote:
Infestor is fine ; the game "balling" effect is totally wrong ; it makes all the AoE spells annoying strong, as the only real way to counter them is a insane amount of micro to "keep" your units in a split position ; just move them and they clump up again.
Isn't that one way to keep the skill cap higher?
In BW the unit AI was fucking retarded too, but it allowed good control to stand out once people learned how the units exactly behave. Many people complain about SC2 having not enough micro, yet this is one area where there's a ton of improvement to be made. And it all boils down to better micro and unit control.
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On July 05 2011 07:47 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:44 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote:
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords). And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played. Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
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On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe.
Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep...
I'm tryin real hard babe
Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
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I would love to hear a discussion of this by actual pro's..
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On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe
How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then.
Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords -
Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts
I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
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On July 05 2011 07:47 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:44 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote:
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords). And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played. Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/
Broodlord / infestor / corruptor is cost efficient vs terran.
marine medivac tank ghost... not so much
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On July 05 2011 07:50 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:47 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote:
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords). And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played. Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/ Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you.
The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._.
Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that.
The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. )
Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops. ( SNIPE TECH BUILDING, that's the main reason why MMA TvZ is so annoying )
I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
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I just want to list what infestors are capable of because I found some points were missing in the OP.
Infestors have AOE Which is good against Mass units
Infestors have neural parasite which is very effective against very stong units like battlecruiser
Infestors are airproofed because of the deadly combination of fungal + infested terrans
Infestors are detectors (yes fungal does reveal)
Investors have the ability to move unseen (dark templar/banshee ability) and cast fungal on mineral lines (harras)
Infestors do not clump up because of their model size and they accumulate energy so that 1 emp does not deplete it completly
Infestors have a speed upgrade on creep on Which a zerg can choose to fight
The only two downsides to calling the infestor a unit which counters everything is that it has little health and needs to be microed
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On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already.
Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[
What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army.
you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
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Late game infestors are really darned good. The only saving grace is that most Terran players are better at multitasking than zergs (nothing personal, but it's something we have to train at), so we can force them to make mistakes while pressuring on multiple fronts.
It's kind of disappointing to see some zerg players give advice to terran players. Everyone here is really intelligent, and we've tried what you're suggesting, but many of the tips don't work that well in practice.
Usually what I do if they go infestor broodlord is let them push into one of my mains (I try to spread production&tech evenly to all expos) before doing a large drop on the main to snipe tech, doing a mech push into their closest expo, and doing small drops into each expansion while wearing the broodlords down with spread-out vikings. It's like sacrificing an arm to save the body~and it works pretty good.
Infestor Ultra is fairly meh in my opinion. It feels like it's very hard for a zerg player to push into a base that's entrenched with tanks and buildings.
rant:
+ Show Spoiler +I dunno what to say about people saying just micro more. It's really not that simple. If we took everyone's advice we would have to do so much. To me it's like saying to a zerg... whenever you do a round of injects, you must jump up, click your heels, and check your facebook for notifications. Sure that's all easy, but it's allot to ask for when your playing a game.
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On July 05 2011 07:58 Weinstein wrote:
I just want to list what infestors are capable of because I found some points were missing in the OP.
Infestors have AOE Which is good against Mass units
Infestors have neural parasite which is very effective against very stong units like battlecruiser
Infestors are airproofed because of the deadly combination of fungal + infested terrans
Infestors are detectors (yes fungal does reveal)
Investors have the ability to move unseen (dark templar/banshee ability) and cast fungal on mineral lines (harras)
Infestors do not clump up because of their model size and they accumulate energy so that 1 emp does not deplete it completly
Infestors have a speed upgrade on creep on Which a zerg can choose to fight
The only two downsides to calling the infestor a unit which counters everything is that it has little health and needs to be microed
and emp / ht rapes infestors energy.
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On July 05 2011 05:40 Djeez wrote:Naahh, i think it's pretty much every AOE units that are ''OP'', because of the insane clumping and ball effect.
I have to agree with you on this point.
ZvZ is currently quite retarded because of the strenght of the infestors. I win and lose games I only because of infestor numbers. The key to the matchup is having a good engagement, which is not always easy as you can prepare and spread out your forces but the clumping effect on roaches is almost instant and anytime you have to reposition your army it gets clumped unless you use a lot of 2-3 roach only hotkeys. I don't think the infestor is OP because it's really needed to deal with certain army composition and without it the zerg would have no hope in the late game (yes broodlords are strong but once he gets vikings what do you do?), I think the clumping effect needs to be reviewed and most likely reduced considerably. Not only would it fix the infestor being quite strong, it would also fix units like the collosi who do tons of damage unless the opposing army is spread out.
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On July 05 2011 07:56 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:50 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:47 Noocta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:31 BinxyBrown wrote:
Ghosts do as much dps vs light as marines do and have more range, can cloak, can snipe Zerg t3 units, and emp or snipe infestors.
That's right let's mass a unit that costs 200/100, has as much dps vs light as a marine has, needs 6 snipes to kill a broodlord and 3 snipes to kill an infestor. Not to mention that terran has to invest gas into tanks, medivacs AND ghosts then whilst the zerg can spend all hist gas on just infestors (and broodlords). And let's just assume you mass ghosts and somehow manage to beat mass infestor/broodlord with perfect emps and snipes on ALL broodlords. You now have like 20 ghosts on the field (at the very least), zerg now builds mass roaches. You die. well played. Broodlord / infestor / corruptor cost as much ( if not more ) gas than marine medivac tank ghost. :/ Excuse me? Pretty sure that zerg can save all his gas whilst terran has to start pumping gas into tanks in the late early game and like I said if you somehow kill infestor/broodlord with mass ghost a simple tech switch into mass lings or even roaches is going to kill you. The point here is not rushing to ghost. ._. Midgame infestor are something you shoudl be able to deal with marine tank medivac. Abuse drops against mutaless zergs. Drop somewhere, attack else where. Infestors are slow. Abuse that. The point if how to deal with zerg when they get a high tech lategame army. Well, you have to transition to some techlab rax to pump ghost ( or marauder against Ultra , viking from the already existing reactor spartport if Broodlord. ) Spread Viking to not get all fungaled. Don't send all your ghost at once to not get them fungaled and killed. Abuse the fact that lategame zerg don't have muta anymore, do more drops. ( SNIPE TECH BUILDING, that's the main reason why MMA TvZ is so annoying ) I don't get why terran are complaining, TvZ lategame is usualy something hard for terran but not impossible. If zerg roflstomp you, you were probably more behind than you though.
How are you going to prevent your vikings from clumping? And interestingly enough now the terran needs tanks vikings, medivacs and ghost to win. and how are you going to deal with his tech switch then?
You are telling terran players that they have to micro several different units at once in like 10 different control groups while all the zerg has to do is fungal and a move. how on earth is that fair?
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On July 05 2011 07:48 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. exactly this. also i dont think zerg players realise how hard it is to split like champion lol.
In both cases you can split Before hand, o wait, is that too hard for you as well?
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with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
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On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe Edit: btw I played terran in masters before I switched to zerg, dropped to plat, and then got back into masters. It's h'okay though, once you get 20+ APM new doors will open for you young soldier.
I am pretty sure that it takes less APM to split your marines before an engagement rather than after when a large ball of banelings are running at you. Even then, at least you can RUN from banelings.
Also, what you are arguing is a mechanics issue, which has no bearing with so called "balance".
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On July 05 2011 08:01 phisku wrote:
with a good micro infestor are not OP, but people with enough skill to make good split are only a "few" people. My point is that infestor is extremely strong at lower level (diamond and under).
if you're under diamond you can't really talk about balance sorry :[
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On July 05 2011 07:58 Gimmickkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:54 dodrta wrote:On July 05 2011 07:51 Gimmickkz wrote:On July 05 2011 07:44 shockaslim wrote:On July 05 2011 07:30 Gimmickkz wrote:
Hi you split marines against banelings and don't take much damage
now... using all that brain power...
what should you do against infestors? One of them you can run from and split later, the other one you can't. Try harder next time babe. Okay you're right, but thankfully I have a team of scientists with me right now. They said, after many many hours of painstaking research and analysis, that they have come to the following conclusion : split your marines before! If that is still too difficult, you can always try to like I don't know, use more than one control group for your marines. Hell that might have to high an APM requirement actually nvm, maybe you can try to attack off creep... I'm tryin real hard babe How many control groups are you going to use then? Like 10? Let's compare the amount of micro t and z have to do then. Zerg = fungal and a move banelings and broodlords - Terran = Mass snipe, split marines, unsiege tanks/siege tanks, use different control groups just for marines only,+ tanks + ghosts I can't actually believe a zerg player is telling terran players how to micro, terran is by miles the most micro-intense race already. Not sure what part of "I used to play terran" is difficult but meh... typical? :[ What I'm saying is pre splitting marines or using.. oh I don't know THREE? controll groups for your army ( btw that's how many I use minimum for just queens mid game, late game I'm up to 4-5 for just queens ) then you immediately cut half the potential damage down to random fungals. Not sure what part of 5-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA requires so much micro that you can't keep an eye on your army. you don't even need to unsiege your tanks if you handle the infestors correctly since they're the control for the broodlords.
Now you are comparing queen control groups that you only need to use every like xx seconds to terran marine control groups that you have to micro in battle. I don't even know what to say to this.
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EPT
