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! [Q] Dark swarm question

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Overlord
Profile Joined May 2003
Romania651 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-04-16 17:55:01
April 16 2006 17:52 GMT
#1
We all know, that burrowed lurkers are not affected by siege tank damage under the dark swarm. From this I did conclude, that splash damage does not affect burrowed units under dark swarm.

But in recent replays (eg. Nada - Eriador at WWI) terran players are using firebats to *kill* the lurkers under the swarm. What is the explanation to that? And if bats can kill lurkers under the swarm, can archons? Reavers? An enemy lurker? Storm, Yamato, Nuke and other spells surely can.

Edit: on Blizzard's description about dark swarm it states:

The following units are able to damage units underneath a Dark Swarm with their normal attacks:

Protoss: Probes, Reavers, Dark Templar, Zealots, Archons
Terrans: SCVs, Firebats, Siege Tanks in Siege Mode
Zerg: Drones, Zerglings, Lurkers, Ultralisk, Broodlings, Infested Terrans

but again, we all know siege tanks don't damage under swarm, so maybe in a later patch, they did change that to an exception?
God is dead - Nietzsche ; Nietzsche is dead - God
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
April 16 2006 17:56 GMT
#2
Swarm protects vs ranged attacks, such as a marine. It does not protect vs melee attacks like a firebat or ling, thats why lings can hurt you under swarm. Archons can, I think reaver can, enemy lurker can because its a melee attack.
Overlord
Profile Joined May 2003
Romania651 Posts
April 16 2006 18:25 GMT
#3
afaik the Firebat and the Archon has a ranged attack (range of 2). Why are they considered melee attackers?
God is dead - Nietzsche ; Nietzsche is dead - God
zergc1
Profile Joined October 2004
Zimbabwe961 Posts
April 16 2006 18:25 GMT
#4
i think archon under swarm make less damage.
MTF
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States1739 Posts
April 16 2006 18:31 GMT
#5
Firebats, though they have range, are still considered a melee attack I believe.

And units such as Archons/Seige Tanks do still do damage, but not their full damage. It's just the splash damage that affects.

By the way, it is possible to kill burrowed units with the Seige Tank's splash under swarm, as long as there is a unit nearby it. Same concept as killing a lurker without detection. You can't target the lurker itself, but if another unit is close by it, is fire at, and the lurker is under the splash, it will take damage.
Think. :)
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
April 16 2006 18:39 GMT
#6
Firebats attack count as melee, unaffected by uphill and downhill etc. I thought archon would do full damage under swarm, but then again I've never played pvz before.
red.venom
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4651 Posts
April 16 2006 18:45 GMT
#7
Archons and Firebats do not do their direct damage. They are able to cause damage via their splash/area of effect damage(Which is less).

Maybe someone who knows more clearly could extrapolate, but pretty much an archon vs a bunch of lings will still do similar damage to what it did out of swarm just because of all its splash. But vs one ling it will only do like 1/4 of its normal damage as it is only hitting with splash. Something similar for firebat.
Broom
iloveyou[KTF]
Profile Joined March 2006
Korea (South)113 Posts
April 16 2006 19:07 GMT
#8
when dark swarm comes out basically its gg for terran.. u guys see the [RED]NaDa TvZ game on tracker where he was pushed back to his base @ RoV cuz of dark swarm ..-_- it really pained me.
서지수/서지훈/강민/박정석/임요환
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
April 16 2006 19:11 GMT
#9
haha hey its not always GG for terran..if only zvt was so simple! defiler rush everytime then, lol.

anyway yeah what MTF said is correct...

firebats are melee + splash damage so yeha.. o_O
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
ther
Profile Joined January 2005
Hungary252 Posts
April 16 2006 19:46 GMT
#10
On April 17 2006 02:52 Overlord wrote:
The following units are able to damage units underneath a Dark Swarm with their normal attacks:

Terrans: Siege Tanks in Siege Mode

but again, we all know siege tanks don't damage under swarm, so maybe in a later patch, they did change that to an exception?

maybe, if the tank and its enemy are under the same swarm, the tank do a normal damage (which, as you know, is not always certainly 70dmg)
hO?
b_unnies
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
3579 Posts
April 16 2006 20:18 GMT
#11
On April 17 2006 04:07 iloveyou[KTF] wrote:
when dark swarm comes out basically its gg for terran.. u guys see the [RED]NaDa TvZ game on tracker where he was pushed back to his base @ RoV cuz of dark swarm ..-_- it really pained me.


that.. was random..
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
April 16 2006 20:30 GMT
#12
Tanks can't hit a lurker directly under swarm, BUT, if there are lings/other units on top of the lurker, the tanks splash will hit the lurker.

Archons only deal their splash damage under swarm, meaning they do about 5 dmg to ultras -,-
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Return
Profile Joined June 2005
Ivory Coast856 Posts
April 16 2006 20:48 GMT
#13
all rangedattacks get stuck on the edge of the swarm if u guys have noticed so if u aim at the lurker it will hit the side of the swarm but if it focus on for example a ling over it it can die
Diiiscoo-oh, thats where the happy people go!
breathe
Profile Joined February 2006
Poland426 Posts
April 16 2006 21:27 GMT
#14
swarm protects only from ranged firering units, and firebats are counted as "melee" units.
ShabZzoY!
Profile Joined July 2004
Great Britain760 Posts
April 16 2006 22:01 GMT
#15
if theres loads of lurkers close together then some of them will die from missed shots on others

its very strange
Overlord
Profile Joined May 2003
Romania651 Posts
April 16 2006 22:04 GMT
#16
Thanks for your answers, everything is clear now

On April 17 2006 07:01 ShabZzoY! wrote:
if theres loads of lurkers close together then some of them will die from missed shots on others

its very strange


This is not true, only if some of them are unborrowed.

God is dead - Nietzsche ; Nietzsche is dead - God
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
April 16 2006 22:14 GMT
#17
Can someone exactly tell how big damage do archons under swarm do?
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
April 16 2006 23:04 GMT
#18
I think it is possible to explain it all in terms of splash/hit damage. But I am not sure. This my idea of how it works:

Direct hit damage does not deal damage.
Splash damage do.

Some units deal only hit damage (marines, hydras etc), some only splash damage (lurker, firebats), some BOTH (siege tank, archon).

The tank and the arcon deals hit damage to the target, and splash damage to nearby units, but not splash damage on the target. As swarm cancels the hit damage, you only should take damage by archons and tanks if another unit nearby is targeted.

This seams logic to me, but I'm not sure that is how it works... will a single zergling be invulnerable from 2385 tanks and 657 archons if it's alone?
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2693 Posts
April 16 2006 23:07 GMT
#19
On April 17 2006 07:14 HasuZealot wrote:
Can someone exactly tell how big damage do archons under swarm do?


iirc they do 5 hp damage, but im not sure.
estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
Romance_us
Profile Joined March 2006
Seychelles1806 Posts
April 16 2006 23:28 GMT
#20
Um Swarm isn't gg for terrans, usually they have 435349904 Science Vessels and just irridiate everything.
Notes and feelings, numbers and reason. The ultimate equilibrium.
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