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We all know, that burrowed lurkers are not affected by siege tank damage under the dark swarm. From this I did conclude, that splash damage does not affect burrowed units under dark swarm.
But in recent replays (eg. Nada - Eriador at WWI) terran players are using firebats to *kill* the lurkers under the swarm. What is the explanation to that? And if bats can kill lurkers under the swarm, can archons? Reavers? An enemy lurker? Storm, Yamato, Nuke and other spells surely can.
Edit: on Blizzard's description about dark swarm it states:
The following units are able to damage units underneath a Dark Swarm with their normal attacks:
Protoss: Probes, Reavers, Dark Templar, Zealots, Archons
Terrans: SCVs, Firebats, Siege Tanks in Siege Mode
Zerg: Drones, Zerglings, Lurkers, Ultralisk, Broodlings, Infested Terrans
but again, we all know siege tanks don't damage under swarm, so maybe in a later patch, they did change that to an exception?
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Swarm protects vs ranged attacks, such as a marine. It does not protect vs melee attacks like a firebat or ling, thats why lings can hurt you under swarm. Archons can, I think reaver can, enemy lurker can because its a melee attack.
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afaik the Firebat and the Archon has a ranged attack (range of 2). Why are they considered melee attackers?
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i think archon under swarm make less damage.
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Firebats, though they have range, are still considered a melee attack I believe.
And units such as Archons/Seige Tanks do still do damage, but not their full damage. It's just the splash damage that affects.
By the way, it is possible to kill burrowed units with the Seige Tank's splash under swarm, as long as there is a unit nearby it. Same concept as killing a lurker without detection. You can't target the lurker itself, but if another unit is close by it, is fire at, and the lurker is under the splash, it will take damage.
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Firebats attack count as melee, unaffected by uphill and downhill etc. I thought archon would do full damage under swarm, but then again I've never played pvz before.
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Archons and Firebats do not do their direct damage. They are able to cause damage via their splash/area of effect damage(Which is less).
Maybe someone who knows more clearly could extrapolate, but pretty much an archon vs a bunch of lings will still do similar damage to what it did out of swarm just because of all its splash. But vs one ling it will only do like 1/4 of its normal damage as it is only hitting with splash. Something similar for firebat.
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when dark swarm comes out basically its gg for terran.. u guys see the [RED]NaDa TvZ game on tracker where he was pushed back to his base @ RoV cuz of dark swarm ..-_- it really pained me.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
haha hey its not always GG for terran..if only zvt was so simple!  defiler rush everytime then, lol.
anyway yeah what MTF said is correct...
firebats are melee + splash damage so yeha.. o_O
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On April 17 2006 02:52 Overlord wrote:
The following units are able to damage units underneath a Dark Swarm with their normal attacks:
Terrans: Siege Tanks in Siege Mode
but again, we all know siege tanks don't damage under swarm, so maybe in a later patch, they did change that to an exception?
maybe, if the tank and its enemy are under the same swarm, the tank do a normal damage (which, as you know, is not always certainly 70dmg)
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On April 17 2006 04:07 iloveyou[KTF] wrote:
when dark swarm comes out basically its gg for terran.. u guys see the [RED]NaDa TvZ game on tracker where he was pushed back to his base @ RoV cuz of dark swarm ..-_- it really pained me.
that.. was random..
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Sweden33719 Posts
Tanks can't hit a lurker directly under swarm, BUT, if there are lings/other units on top of the lurker, the tanks splash will hit the lurker.
Archons only deal their splash damage under swarm, meaning they do about 5 dmg to ultras -,-
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all rangedattacks get stuck on the edge of the swarm if u guys have noticed so if u aim at the lurker it will hit the side of the swarm but if it focus on for example a ling over it it can die
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swarm protects only from ranged firering units, and firebats are counted as "melee" units.
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if theres loads of lurkers close together then some of them will die from missed shots on others
its very strange
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Thanks for your answers, everything is clear now 
On April 17 2006 07:01 ShabZzoY! wrote:
if theres loads of lurkers close together then some of them will die from missed shots on others
its very strange
This is not true, only if some of them are unborrowed.
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Can someone exactly tell how big damage do archons under swarm do?
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I think it is possible to explain it all in terms of splash/hit damage. But I am not sure. This my idea of how it works:
Direct hit damage does not deal damage.
Splash damage do.
Some units deal only hit damage (marines, hydras etc), some only splash damage (lurker, firebats), some BOTH (siege tank, archon).
The tank and the arcon deals hit damage to the target, and splash damage to nearby units, but not splash damage on the target. As swarm cancels the hit damage, you only should take damage by archons and tanks if another unit nearby is targeted.
This seams logic to me, but I'm not sure that is how it works... will a single zergling be invulnerable from 2385 tanks and 657 archons if it's alone?
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On April 17 2006 07:14 HasuZealot wrote:
Can someone exactly tell how big damage do archons under swarm do?
iirc they do 5 hp damage, but im not sure.
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Um Swarm isn't gg for terrans, usually they have 435349904 Science Vessels and just irridiate everything.
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IIRC its like this:
The only thing a swarm does is making the projectile hit the ground 1 matrix(or something) infront of the unit, instead of hitting the unit.
So basically if you're trying to hit a lurker under a swarm with a tank, it will hit the ground 1 matrix infront of the lurker. Now if there had been another unit 1 matrix infront of the lurker, the other unit would have tanken full damge.
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United States12235 Posts
There seems to be some discrepancy with the answers here.
Archons and Siege Tanks ordinarily deal only their splash damage, like people have said. However, the thing to remember is that every shot that Dark Swarm deflects will land in the exact same location every time depending on the location of the attacking unit. So, it's predictable where the shots will land, and that means with proper targeting you can force shots to land in certain places. For example, Dark Swarm will always cause shots to fall short by about 0.5 matrices. This is the same radius as the Archon's 1/4 splash ring and the Siege Tank's 1/2 splash ring. That means that any unit attacked by a Siege Tank or Archon will suffer this amount of damage, yet the shots will always land in the same place.
To extrapolate, let's say that there is a unit who is standing 0.5 matrices behind the intended target relevant to the direction of the attacking unit. This second unit will receive only splash damage because Dark Swarm causes the shot to fall short, but the intended target will receive full damage because Dark Swarm is causing the fire to land directly on it. We have already stipulated that burrowed units do not take damage from splash, which is why Lurkers are especially effective. However, given that the shot trajectory in terms of Dark Swarm is predictable, even a Lurker would receive full direct damage based on this fact.
Also, the SCC is wrong. Worker units deal zero damage under Swarm.
Firebats will deal their full damage because their attack is line splash damage, the same principle as Lurkers. That means that as long as the unit is stationary, the shot can never miss. Even though they're a terrible, awful attempted counter to Lurkers, if you've got enough of something... =]
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United States12235 Posts
I hate you Malmis for saying exactly what I said one minute before me. You made an error though, the same thing I almost said and I had to edit it - "Now if there had been another unit 1 matrix infront of the lurker, it would have tanken full damge." You mean if the unit was behind the Lurker =]
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On April 17 2006 07:04 Overlord wrote:Thanks for your answers, everything is clear now Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 07:01 ShabZzoY! wrote:
if theres loads of lurkers close together then some of them will die from missed shots on others
its very strange
This is not true, only if some of them are unborrowed.
Actually it is true, so dont be so sure of yourself
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On April 17 2006 09:28 ShabZzoY! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 07:04 Overlord wrote:Thanks for your answers, everything is clear now On April 17 2006 07:01 ShabZzoY! wrote:
if theres loads of lurkers close together then some of them will die from missed shots on others
its very strange
This is not true, only if some of them are unborrowed. Actually it is true, so dont be so sure of yourself
You're right, when I first tested it, I always targeted the closest lurker to the tanks.
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On April 17 2006 04:46 ther wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 02:52 Overlord wrote:
The following units are able to damage units underneath a Dark Swarm with their normal attacks:
Terrans: Siege Tanks in Siege Mode
but again, we all know siege tanks don't damage under swarm, so maybe in a later patch, they did change that to an exception? maybe, if the tank and its enemy are under the same swarm, the tank do a normal damage (which, as you know, is not always certainly 70dmg)
What? Tanks hardly do anywhere near their full damage under swarm, thats why you don't pwn everything under swarm that quickly.
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On April 17 2006 08:04 Cascade wrote:
This seams logic to me, but I'm not sure that is how it works... will a single zergling be invulnerable from 2385 tanks and 657 archons if it's alone?
Yes, this is correct to my knowledge.
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Pretty sure firebat is considered melee, or like a lurker as Excal said. The reason bats do so little damage to burrowed lurkers under swarm is because lurkers aren't small units, so bats always do less damage regardless of swarm. It might have to do with being burrowed, I'm not sure which. In any case, lurkers will slaughter bats.
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On April 17 2006 15:57 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 08:04 Cascade wrote:
This seams logic to me, but I'm not sure that is how it works... will a single zergling be invulnerable from 2385 tanks and 657 archons if it's alone? Yes, this is correct to my knowledge.
Not if you unsiege a tank and put it beside the zergling and focus fire on the tank lol.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 17 2006 15:57 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 08:04 Cascade wrote:
This seams logic to me, but I'm not sure that is how it works... will a single zergling be invulnerable from 2385 tanks and 657 archons if it's alone? Yes, this is correct to my knowledge.
No, the Zergling would take splash damage from either unit, and die under normal circumstances from 5 Archon shots or 3 Tank shots, factoring in regeneration. However, if it was burrowed, it would take no damage.
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firebats are melee with concussive/splash damage
lurkers are big units
concussive damage deals 25% of the damage in big units, 50% in medium and 100% in small
that's why lurkers take so little damage from firebats. this have nothing to do with dark swarm
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On April 17 2006 17:53 skyglow1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 15:57 aseq wrote:On April 17 2006 08:04 Cascade wrote:
This seams logic to me, but I'm not sure that is how it works... will a single zergling be invulnerable from 2385 tanks and 657 archons if it's alone? Yes, this is correct to my knowledge. Not if you unsiege a tank and put it beside the zergling and focus fire on the tank lol.
Yay for splash damage!
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Camila is right, check battle.net for exact statistics. Firebats have a range of 3 matrixes but have to be standing right next to the unit to fire, so it's considered melee. It's attack is concussive liniar splash, so it will do damage to 3 matrixes on the line of fire, with the procentages Camilla provided. When targeting lurkers they WILL take damage because of the melee attack that does work under DS.
Tanks: Do radial explosive splash damage. Splash damage IS effective under swarm but NOT effective vs burrowed units. Explosive attacks deal 50% to small units, 75% to medium-sized units and 100% to large units. Ergo, lurkers won't take direct damage because of swarm nor will they take splash damage because of burrow-ness However shooting at other units above lurkers works, provided u have good placement. Did you notice lukers are VERY hard to kill with siege tanks on cliffs? it's because when you're below the cliff u have 30% (or was it 33%?) chance of a successfull hit, which means that if you don't DIRECTLY hit a lurker it will only be succeptible to splash damage. If it's burrowed it got away from that as well.
However I never seen what happens when lurkers are bunched together. Perhaps some will take direct hit and die. I think that's true because i have seen lurkers die under DS without any units on top of them.
For unit statistics check http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml (links to protoss and zerg from that page too).
Bottom line: if you're terran and u see dark swarm keep away. If you HAVE to kill it use scv/medic on top of them and aim tanks at your units. If there are too many lurkers and you're losing the game if you don't kill them press enter type in g then g then press enter agian and the keys ALT q and q in quick succession.
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Yeah but T just irradiates your shit so you cant keep pressing forward with defiler and lets their hilariously massive marine+medic force with high upgrades wipe you you. Its only really poor Terrans who would complain about swarm. ; [
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ok, now I am confused...
So burrowed units do not take splash damage under swarm, is that correct? But then a lurker would be immune to enemy lurkers under swarm, as they both are burrowed and deal only splash damage?
But without swarm it does take damage, otherwise the shoot-your-own-zealot-with-an-archon wouldn't work? And the same trick does not work under swarm then I guess....
So then what about the uphill lurker example: Do they take splash damage? If no: why not?
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Well, apparently nobody knows, so I'll explain...
Burrowed units take only 100% damage splash. If they are in the 25% or 50% zone they will take no damage at all. You can test it even with a nuke - burrowed units near the end of the damage zone will take no damage at all, while unburrowed will.
Dark Swarm makes range units attack infront of the target, so units with no splash attack don't hit their target at all.
Reaver's scarab is a melee unit, so it doesn't effect it(Something interesting - if you press stop on a reaver, which has a scarab on the field, the scarab will explode dealing no damage).
Firebats deal most of their damage with their 100% splash, so they deal damage to burrowed units under swarm, they also deal line splash and fire exactly at the target, not infront of it.
Lurkers also can't really fire infront of their target, so they always hit and they deal all of their damage in 100% splash.
Tanks won't hit a burrowed lurker thay are aiming at, because the 100% damage zone does not reach the target(the radii on their 100% splash is 10, they normally hit a bit infront of their target and Dark Swarm makes them hit even more off)
High Archons as Siege Tanks can't hit the burrowed unit they are aiming at(under swarm), their 100% damage splash zone has a radii of 3 and they attack infront of their target, if they are too close to it, the actuall attack sprite will appear behind the archon or on top of it.
I have tested this multiple times and it is absolutely correct.
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On April 17 2006 19:22 Camila_br wrote:
firebats are melee with concussive/splash damage
lurkers are big units
concussive damage deals 25% of the damage in big units, 50% in medium and 100% in small
that's why lurkers take so little damage from firebats. this have nothing to do with dark swarm
Lurker size IS medium, not large, but you are right about swarm not having effect on a firebat attacking a burrowed lurker.
Lurkers also due to their collsion size, not armor type size, often take damage from the three damage points of the firebat attack(the firebat's attack is actually three little splash attacks in a line infront of him, each dealing 8 damage in it's 100% damage zone), so they take:
3 hits by 8 damage, which is reduced to 7 by the 1 point of armor and divided by 2 due to medium armor size of the lurkers = 10.5 damage taken(when there are no upgrades or equal upgrades for firebat attack/lurker armor).
It depends on the angle of attack, so sometimes the lurker will take damage only from 2 of the damage points in the firebats attack and it will be just 7 damage.
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On April 18 2006 02:37 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2006 19:22 Camila_br wrote:
firebats are melee with concussive/splash damage
lurkers are big units
concussive damage deals 25% of the damage in big units, 50% in medium and 100% in small
that's why lurkers take so little damage from firebats. this have nothing to do with dark swarm Lurker size IS medium, not large, but you are right about swarm not having effect on a firebat attacking a burrowed lurker. Lurkers also due to their collsion size, not armor type size, often take damage from the three damage points of the firebat attack(the firebat's attack is actually three little splash attacks in a line infront of him, each dealing 8 damage in it's 100% damage zone), so they take: 3 hits by 8 damage, which is reduced to 7 by the 1 point of armor and divided by 2 due to medium armor size of the lurkers = 10.5 damage taken(when there are no upgrades or equal upgrades for firebat attack/lurker armor). It depends on the angle of attack, so sometimes the lurker will take damage only from 2 of the damage points in the firebats attack and it will be just 7 damage.
http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/units/lurker.shtml
they are large, not medium
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Tell me, do lurkers die to 2 tank hits in your games?
Oh wait, they dont. Oh wait, you are talking shit.
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tell that to blizzard, kthxbye
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Missile Attacks - Each upgrade adds +2 to Missile Attacks for a total of +6 when fully upgraded.
So don't think that is exactly accurate.
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SCC also implies that upgrading plasma shields give units more shield points...
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On April 18 2006 08:10 Cloud wrote:
Whats iirc?
I Internet Relay Chat
j/k. actually it's "if i recall/remember correctly"
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Netherlands13554 Posts
lololol is correct.
Both archons and tanks deal no damage to burrowed lurkers under swarm.
Just like tanks don't damage lurkers on a cliff when they miss. The splash damage these units deal has no impact on burrow. That's why zerg players also burrow their iradiated lurkers, so the other units don't get damage from splash. It's the other way around actually like this situation, but still.
And firebats are melee concussive damage dealing units (as someone already explained), and only deal half damage to medium-sized (i.e. lurkers) units, thus only dealing 22-4 / 2 --> 9 damage (when both the lurker and the firebat are fully upgraded).
Excalibur is also correct in saying that the worker units don't hit under swarm. Workers are all units with a ranged attack, even the SCV (has a range of 1, like all melee units, but it's still considered a ranged attack because they can't hit under swarm).
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On April 18 2006 08:33 Twisted wrote:
And firebats are melee concussive damage dealing units (as someone already explained), and only deal half damage to medium-sized (i.e. lurkers) units, thus only dealing 22-4 / 2 --> 9 damage (when both the lurker and the firebat are fully upgraded).
Sorry, to correct you, but firebats attack is actually 3 small splash attacks each dealing 8(up to 11) damage. In most cases units take damage from 2 of the attacks, so they receive 16(up to 22) damage minus 2 times their armor, but depending on angle and distance of attack they sometimes deal between 10 and 20 damage even on small units and 24 to larger sized ones, because of the nature of their attack. So against burrowed lukers it will be 7 or 10.5 damage when equally upgraded, it can't be 9.
Other attacks, which are affected multiple times by armor are the zealot's attack and scout/goliath air attack, all three perform 2 hits on the target at half damage of the one shown in the info panel, but only the firebat has a very weard attack "pattern", it's 3 x 8 with each other's splashes overlapping.
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so the only important thing to remember from this thread is that you should aim at the farthest lurkers in the swarm. if you get lucky the 100% zone will lie on top of a lurker that is burrowed closer to your tanks and you can kill it.
shit why am i saying this? i'm zerg.
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On April 18 2006 08:59 Asta wrote:so the only important thing to remember from this thread is that you should aim at the farthest lurkers in the swarm. if you get lucky the 100% zone will lie on top of a lurker that is burrowed closer to your tanks and you can kill it. shit why am i saying this? i'm zerg.
Yep, aim at the farthest lurkers and if your tanks are spread a bit they will clean up all of the area around them, so you can use some firebats to kill the few remaining, which is very helpfull if the swarm is in your mineral line
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On April 17 2006 02:52 Overlord wrote:
but again, we all know siege tanks don't damage under swarm, so maybe in a later patch, they did change that to an exception?
They are terrans most effective unit vs swarm becouse splash from a few tank is alot of damage
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The lurker is medium-sized (http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/zstats.shtml) so it doesn't take full damage from siege anyway.
U wanted more explaning about the cliff part? Easy. If you have a dragoon on the cliff and the tank will fire at it, most of the time it won't hit it directly, thus dealing only half the damage it should, however, the goon will still die rather quickly. Now if instead of that goon you have a burrowed lurker, none of the shots that will hit around it will give him damage (because it's just splash and burrowing makes it immune to it). Combine that with the very slim odds of a direct hit (30%ish), and you'll find out why two lurkers on a cliff can clear all your scvs before you get a chance to take them out.
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On April 18 2006 08:33 Twisted wrote:
lololol is correct.
Both archons and tanks deal no damage to burrowed lurkers under swarm.
Just like tanks don't damage lurkers on a cliff when they miss. The splash damage these units deal has no impact on burrow. That's why zerg players also burrow their iradiated lurkers, so the other units don't get damage from splash. It's the other way around actually like this situation, but still.
And firebats are melee concussive damage dealing units (as someone already explained), and only deal half damage to medium-sized (i.e. lurkers) units, thus only dealing 22-4 / 2 --> 9 damage (when both the lurker and the firebat are fully upgraded).
Excalibur is also correct in saying that the worker units don't hit under swarm. Workers are all units with a ranged attack, even the SCV (has a range of 1, like all melee units, but it's still considered a ranged attack because they can't hit under swarm).
But if a buried lurker has a zergling directly above it and 12 tanks fire at the zergling, will the lurk die?
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On April 18 2006 09:31 Patriot.dlk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2006 08:33 Twisted wrote:
lololol is correct.
Both archons and tanks deal no damage to burrowed lurkers under swarm.
Just like tanks don't damage lurkers on a cliff when they miss. The splash damage these units deal has no impact on burrow. That's why zerg players also burrow their iradiated lurkers, so the other units don't get damage from splash. It's the other way around actually like this situation, but still.
And firebats are melee concussive damage dealing units (as someone already explained), and only deal half damage to medium-sized (i.e. lurkers) units, thus only dealing 22-4 / 2 --> 9 damage (when both the lurker and the firebat are fully upgraded).
Excalibur is also correct in saying that the worker units don't hit under swarm. Workers are all units with a ranged attack, even the SCV (has a range of 1, like all melee units, but it's still considered a ranged attack because they can't hit under swarm). But if a buried lurker has a zergling directly above it and 12 tanks fire at the zergling, will the lurk die?
Only the zergling will die.
In order for the lurker to die, the zerling has to be like:
TANKS - - - - - - - - - - - LURK - LING
Each "-" is approximately 32 pixels and ofc the distance between tanks and lurk could be less, but still out of their minimum range, lol
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Why does the zergling die? (I thought only 100% splash could hit it and that means nothing should die that's targeted under swarm?
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On April 18 2006 09:25 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:The lurker is medium-sized (http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/zstats.shtml) so it doesn't take full damage from siege anyway. U wanted more explaning about the cliff part? Easy. If you have a dragoon on the cliff and the tank will fire at it, most of the time it won't hit it directly, thus dealing only half the damage it should, however, the goon will still die rather quickly. Now if instead of that goon you have a burrowed lurker, none of the shots that will hit around it will give him damage (because it's just splash and burrowing makes it immune to it). Combine that with the very slim odds of a direct hit (30%ish), and you'll find out why two lurkers on a cliff can clear all your scvs before you get a chance to take them out.
IIRC, the miss chance, for targets behind doodads or on higher ground, is 30%, not the chance to hit
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On April 18 2006 09:37 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Why does the zergling die? (I thought only 100% splash could hit it and that means nothing should die that's targeted under swarm?
Because the immunity to non-100% hits comes from being burrowed.
The effect of swarm is the units firing short of their target.
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A yes.. But when fireing at an army over and over that consists of both borrowed and non borrowed units then eventually most of the them would die even though they got swarmprotection?
Becouse that's how I recall how my games goes after going 2fact tank
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It depends a lot on the unit position and tank choise of targets.
It is possible for the tanks to wipe out everything under swarm, if there are unburrowed targets in proper distance behind the burrowed ones.
It is also possible if the tanks shoot only at the first burrowed unit, that everything behind it will survive(unburrowed have to be a bit more behind), because they won't kill it, untill swarm wears off.
When there are lots of units splash is more likely to hit burrowed ones(unburrowed gets hit by 25/50% splash anyway), that's why almost everything gets killed.
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I guess swarm acts like a ramp but with 100% miss chance
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On April 18 2006 10:33 ShabZzoY! wrote:
I guess swarm acts like a ramp but with 100% miss chance
I guess ramps act like swarm but with 30% miss chance 
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Then is there anything a terran can do to hurt burrowed lurkers under swarm with sieged tanks?
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Netherlands13554 Posts
On April 18 2006 08:58 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2006 08:33 Twisted wrote:
And firebats are melee concussive damage dealing units (as someone already explained), and only deal half damage to medium-sized (i.e. lurkers) units, thus only dealing 22-4 / 2 --> 9 damage (when both the lurker and the firebat are fully upgraded). Sorry, to correct you, but firebats attack is actually 3 small splash attacks each dealing 8(up to 11) damage. In most cases units take damage from 2 of the attacks, so they receive 16(up to 22) damage minus 2 times their armor, but depending on angle and distance of attack they sometimes deal between 10 and 20 damage even on small units and 24 to larger sized ones, because of the nature of their attack. So against burrowed lukers it will be 7 or 10.5 damage when equally upgraded, it can't be 9. Other attacks, which are affected multiple times by armor are the zealot's attack and scout/goliath air attack, all three perform 2 hits on the target at half damage of the one shown in the info panel, but only the firebat has a very weard attack "pattern", it's 3 x 8 with each other's splashes overlapping.
ah ok =]
I know they deal like different damage (like when a ling is really close the bat will deal only half damage or something) but I didn't think it would matter vs a lurker cuz it's so big ;O
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its wierd because a tank will attack but the swarm will move its target and miss and deal splash. if its directly it does nothing to unburrowed OR burrowed. the strongest army under swarm is 1 ultra becuase it cant die no matter what. whover made the swarm calculations and put them in the game is a genious.
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On April 18 2006 14:29 Hypnotize wrote:
its wierd because a tank will attack but the swarm will move its target and miss and deal splash. if its directly it does nothing to unburrowed OR burrowed. the strongest army under swarm is 1 ultra becuase it cant die no matter what. whover made the swarm calculations and put them in the game is a genious.
or 5 that are spread apart ;D
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well its only about 10 units wide so...100/ 16 yeah thats about 5 ultras if u count the splash damage range but who would really calculate that lol.
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Workers cannot dmg units underswarm, I've tried it with probes and scvs, damn lings didn't die T_T
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tests have shown that the following (taking this out of memory, possible that i mix up little details, but the overall meaning is true):
when focussing a unit under the DS with a tank, the tank shoots, BUT the impact point is moved away from the unit a bit. So this unit gets only a small damage from the radial splash of the tank. if you have many units under one DS (and close together), focussing one unit will result in the shooting impact (still splash only) hitting another unit fully. so the impact is moved, and if you have many units under the DS, it is very possible that it hits another unit almost directly.
you can test this with 1 tank and 20 lings and a defiler
though, i can't remember in which direction the impact is moved away.
only splash and meleedamage hits under DS. archon does only the splash, because it counts as ranged attack. same _should_ go for firebats, not totally sure about this.
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On April 18 2006 14:29 Hypnotize wrote:
its wierd because a tank will attack but the swarm will move its target and miss and deal splash. if its directly it does nothing to unburrowed OR burrowed. the strongest army under swarm is 1 ultra becuase it cant die no matter what. whover made the swarm calculations and put them in the game is a genious.
If you target an Ultralisk with 12 tanks, while the Ultralisk is under swarm it will be killed in one volley, what are you talking about? Directly targeted unburrowed take damage, ONLY burrowed do not.
To the others that are talking about the several ultras being immune to tanks(while under swarm): this is incorrect, it applies ONLY to BURROWED units.
To flothefreak: I have already explained exactly how things work, 10x anyway
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Netherlands13554 Posts
Well ultra's would need like 14 tankshots but ok :p
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United States5262 Posts
Swarm causes non-melee units to miss Zerg units under the Swarm. Most Tank shots will far short of the unit. However, if a burrowed lurker is in front of one you're shooting at. It will hit that one.
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Excalibur came and answered this question a while ago. It was something like this:
Siege tanks' splash damage can damage units under the swarm. The reason it doesn't damage lurks is because they're too big, so the tanks' shot hits above the lurker and the splash radius isn't in range. If you put 2 burrowed lurkers near each other under a swarm and let the tank attack, the targetted lurker won't be damaged, but the nearby lurker will.
(Sorry if someone already posted this, didn't read the entire thread. Excalibur should fix this if I re-explained what he wrote wrong).
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United States12235 Posts
On April 19 2006 10:45 Blind wrote:
Excalibur came and answered this question a while ago. It was something like this:
Siege tanks' splash damage can damage units under the swarm. The reason it doesn't damage lurks is because they're too big, so the tanks' shot hits above the lurker and the splash radius isn't in range. If you put 2 burrowed lurkers near each other under a swarm and let the tank attack, the targetted lurker won't be damaged, but the nearby lurker will.
(Sorry if someone already posted this, didn't read the entire thread. Excalibur should fix this if I re-explained what he wrote wrong).
Well not exactly. The tank shot (and any ranged shot, really) will always land a predetermined distance in front of the target - that distance is approximately 0.5 matrices. In that respect, it has nothing to do with the size of the target. The trick is placing all the targets in a straight line with regards to the position of your Tank or Archon. For example, if you have two Lurkers in a straight line, one at range 9.5 and another at range 10, and you target the one at range 10, the shot will land directly on the one at range 9.5 and damage it. The Lurker at range 10 will sustain no damage because, as has already been explained in this thread, burrowing negates splash damage.
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On April 19 2006 09:01 Twisted wrote:
Well ultra's would need like 14 tankshots but ok :p
If the ultralisk has 4-5 armor ups and the tanks have no attack ups - yes, otherwise no I calculated it with no upgrades on both sides and then it's exactly 12 and I just used it as example. Depending on ups, the number of hits can range between 10 and 14.
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United States5262 Posts
Ken Master's heavy flame Shouryuken has 3 hits, but under the Zerg's Dark Swarm, the splash only hits once.
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Ok I tested a few things since the thread just kept going.
Verdicts:
1. If you wanna kill lurkers hit something behind them (in a straight line from your attacker). It will take damage.
2. Burrowed units only take the 100% damage, but if you have, say.. 4-5 lings very close together they will ALL take the siege tank's damage even if they're burrowed. The ones around them however, will be intact (as opposed to having half of the hit points left when they're not burrowed).
3. Firebats do 8 damage to the target closest to them and 16 to the 2-3 area of fire. I've yet to see any unit taken 24 damage (or less according to size/armor) but I'm not denying that it could happen.
4. Archons suck under swarm. :D They will most likely not seriously damage anything, although they could. The problem is that if you have an archon firing at any given target there are very slim chances that there's a unit in between the archon and it's target to take the full blast. So they do minor damage. If you want to kill burrowed lurks fire behind them, works as well as tanks.
5. Reavers ftw. They're good vs swarmed stuff and they have a pretty large 100% area of damage (it seems larger than the tank's but i may be wrong). You definetly want some of that going on when fighting burrowed stuff, or swarm, or any kind of ground zerg units for that matter.
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Units capable of taking 3 hits from a single firebat attack have armor size that does not take 100% from concussive, but 50% or 25%, that's why no unit actually takes 24, but larger units most of the time take 3 hits, it can easily be tested with an ultralisk. If you have the needed modding programs you could make the ultralisk not regen health(or have small armor size, so it takes 100% damage), so you can be as accurate as possible, but it's not really needed. Another easy test is a burrowed lurker, he'll take 7(2 hits) or 10.5(3 hits) damage from different angles of attack.
Tanks splash radii is 10, Scarab is 20 and Scarabs explode in melee range, so swarm does not have effect on them.
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Siege splash damages units, but burrowed units are unaffected by splash, thus take no damage.
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Wow there are so many misconceptions in this thread it is sick
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United States12235 Posts
On April 20 2006 10:00 pooper-scooper wrote:
Wow there are so many misconceptions in this thread it is sick
Most people who play the game do so without regard to specifics. Not everyone is a statistician like lololol and myself =] A lot of others don't really care so they will invent their own theories as to why certain things happen, guess at unit stats like HP/damage/range, etc. They play with the mentality "I may not know how much damage unit X does or how long the build time is for unit Y, or how unit Z is affected by Dark Swarm, but I've played a lot of games so I can make educated estimations based on my in-game experiences." And that works fine for them on an individual basis. On topics like these requesting specific information, though, those estimations - and therefore the answers - will vary from person to person. That's the reason behind the misconceptions. It's not that it's a bad thing necessarily because typically threads like this one will come in handy every one in a thousand games, but it does promote productive discussion.
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tank and bat have a weird way of dealing dmg. tank for example deals 70(+5) explosive dmg to the target he is attacking (i.e. the one targeted by ai or right clicking). he also does 35 splash dmg to units around the target (but not to the target, it's simmilar to next delay in diablo 2), which roughly equals 35*exp(-r/c), where r is distance to original target, and c is a constant attainable from editor if you have more nerves and time than me. afaik, this splash is not affected by upgrades. this type of dmg is why you might have seen two tanks kill a goon right off: the poor bastard picked ranged dmg from one tank (75) and splash from the other (a little under 35), and vice versa. so the effective dmg of each tank was around 100... so the fact that burrowed lurx are immune to splash is a miscoception made by a weird way tanks shoot (if they were immune to splash, then it would be impossible to do everyone's favourite trick with zeal and archon killing a lurx w/o detection). also, a tank can kill all lurx in a swarm (if they are close enough to each other) except the last one. 2 or more tanks will most likely kill a lurx if they shoot all together.
archon does not have either melee or ranged attack: he deals only splash dmg (like reaver or spider mine). his dmg seems to be less if in swarm, it has happened many times to me that a 3/0/0 archon cant kill as many lings as he could normally. i can think of three reasons why that might be: 1. - the constant of dissipation (c from the fomula for splash dmg) becomes bigger in swarm effectively reducing the "size" of splash and total dmg it does if it affects more than one unit; or 2. - upgrades are reduced, or even ignored in swarm; and finally 3. - a combination of 1. and 2. testing would be a complete waste of time, but might cure some curiosity... *hint to anyone with a lot of free time*
p.s. bats dont deal 3 splash attacks. they deal one melee attack (at range of 1) and 2 splash attacks. however, their splash is definitely affected by upgrades, just like archon's. like tanks, they can deal more dmg if the all attack the same target at the same time (3 of them will rape an archon).
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This thread is full or arrogant players though... Aren't you tired of seeing NO IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE THIS blablabla ? :x
I'm agree that starcraft's players likes to be 100% right : get a break dudes it's not the end of the world... T_T
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On April 20 2006 14:53 GeneralCash wrote:
tank and bat have a weird way of dealing dmg. tank for example deals 70(+5) explosive dmg to the target he is attacking (i.e. the one targeted by ai or right clicking). he also does 35 splash dmg to units around the target (but not to the target, it's simmilar to next delay in diablo 2), which roughly equals 35*exp(-r/c), where r is distance to original target, and c is a constant attainable from editor if you have more nerves and time than me. afaik, this splash is not affected by upgrades. this type of dmg is why you might have seen two tanks kill a goon right off: the poor bastard picked ranged dmg from one tank (75) and splash from the other (a little under 35), and vice versa. so the effective dmg of each tank was around 100... so the fact that burrowed lurx are immune to splash is a miscoception made by a weird way tanks shoot (if they were immune to splash, then it would be impossible to do everyone's favourite trick with zeal and archon killing a lurx w/o detection). also, a tank can kill all lurx in a swarm (if they are close enough to each other) except the last one. 2 or more tanks will most likely kill a lurx if they shoot all together.
archon does not have either melee or ranged attack: he deals only splash dmg (like reaver or spider mine). his dmg seems to be less if in swarm, it has happened many times to me that a 3/0/0 archon cant kill as many lings as he could normally. i can think of three reasons why that might be: 1. - the constant of dissipation (c from the fomula for splash dmg) becomes bigger in swarm effectively reducing the "size" of splash and total dmg it does if it affects more than one unit; or 2. - upgrades are reduced, or even ignored in swarm; and finally 3. - a combination of 1. and 2. testing would be a complete waste of time, but might cure some curiosity... *hint to anyone with a lot of free time*
p.s. bats dont deal 3 splash attacks. they deal one melee attack (at range of 1) and 2 splash attacks. however, their splash is definitely affected by upgrades, just like archon's. like tanks, they can deal more dmg if the all attack the same target at the same time (3 of them will rape an archon).
Tanks do their full damage in a 10 pixel radii, not only to their primary target. They deal 50% in 25 pixel radii and IT IS AFFECTED BY UPGRADES. It is 35/37.5/40/42.5 damage depending on your upgrade level, i.e. exactly half of the primary damage. They also have 25% splash damage in 40 pixel radii(ofc, also affected by upgrades).
Burrowed units ARE imunne to 25%/50% damage splash. The trick in question is possible because the zealot is on top of the lurk, so the 100% splash radii of the Archon's attack is hitting the lurker.
Even if you put 100 tanks around a single luker burrowed and under swarm, the lurker WILL live, tanks will do NO damage to the lurker.
You clearly do not have any understanding how things work, there are no constants of splash dissipation or anything like that. Every unit dealing splash has 3 splash ranges: 100%, 50% and 25%, that's it.
I have already explained exactly how things work, you should see that and not think up some weird things like splash ranges get reduced or upgrades not working units having several different types of attacks all working at once, e.t.c.
"2 or more tanks will most likely kill a lurx if they shoot all together."
I guess this lurker is godly or something and that's why it does not apply to him?
P.S.In the last screen the swarm dissapeared right after the tanks shot
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As I said. I've TESTED these things. So instead of repeating what everyone said before, just read the post.
And when you place your zealot OVER the lurker then it's not splash damage, it's the 100% zone, normal damage of the archon. It doesn't take less, splash damage, it takes normal damage, just like it would if you had observer. Try putting a zealot behind the lurker and shooting at it. You will see the lurk is intact (unless u use dark swarm so the damage is sent back 5-10 radii, thus killing the lurk).
Lolol if you were to place a zergling anywhere around the lurk it would have died.
And if bats do 1 melee and 2 splash why does the melee only deal 8 dmg?
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On April 21 2006 06:23 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:Lolol if you were to place a zergling anywhere around the lurk it would have died.
I did this only to prove him wrong about several tanks shooting at the same time will kill the luker. And it looked cool )) The zergling has to be placed somewhat accurately, the "circle" of possible positions around the lurker is quite large, but it's only 10 pixels thin(it is pretty much the same as the exlosions look in the first screenshot).
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On April 20 2006 13:53 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2006 10:00 pooper-scooper wrote:
Wow there are so many misconceptions in this thread it is sick mentality "I may not know how much damage unit X does or how long the build time is for unit Y, Most people who play the game do so without regard to specifics. Not everyone is a statistician like lololol and myself =] A lot of others don't really care so they will invent their own theories as to why certain things happen, guess at unit stats like HP/damage/range, etc. They play with the or how unit Z is affected by Dark Swarm, but I've played a lot of games so I can make educated estimations based on my in-game experiences." And that works fine for them on an individual basis. On topics like these requesting specific information, though, those estimations - and therefore the answers - will vary from person to person. That's the reason behind the misconceptions. It's not that it's a bad thing necessarily because typically threads like this one will come in handy every one in a thousand games, but it does promote productive discussion.
I concede almost every point you make, with the exception of the fact that "it promotes productive discussion."
People are throwing mistaken ideas left and right, when what they should be doing is making a UMS and testing the issue without getting into arguments where both parties are wrong.
It is like arguing over something that you can easily google: foolish. All of these are easily tested, so why argue?
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seige tank splash dammage works i think, for instance its splash or a reavers splash can kill a dt by targeting a nearby visible unit.
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lololol that first pic is SOOOOOOOOOO cool I'm keeping it!
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also, a tank can kill all lurx in a swarm (if they are close enough to each other) except the last one. 2 or more tanks will most likely kill a lurx if they shoot all together.
I'm pretty sure he means unburrowed lurk here rather than burrowed as in the pics.
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No, I think he meant burrowed lurks, and u keep firing at the one furthest from you, that way the shots land on the ones in front of it. But they'd have to be pretty well arranged to pull that one off.
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On April 22 2006 03:28 skyglow1 wrote:Show nested quote +also, a tank can kill all lurx in a swarm (if they are close enough to each other) except the last one. 2 or more tanks will most likely kill a lurx if they shoot all together. I'm pretty sure he means unburrowed lurk here rather than burrowed as in the pics.
He first reffered to a singe tank shooting under swarm, then about 2 tanks, so the conditions must be the same, CubEdIn also thinks so
About the screens, they all look cool, but I like the second and last the most )
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Glad this question finally got cleared up, now the OP can have the closure he deserves.
I hope this thread also gets the closure it deserves.
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But can a yamato Cannon hit a lurker under swarm?
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On June 22 2014 14:04 art_of_turtle wrote:
But can a yamato Cannon hit a lurker under swarm?
Yes, all special attacks can hit lurkers under swarm, even if the lurker is burrowed.
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Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers. This is why consume is so imbalanced.
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