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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 08 2011 06:59 Artimo wrote:
I wonder if EG sponsors have an opinion about Idra's behavior. sure a little BM is fine. but what Idra does reflects on the sponsors as well. I cant imagine them being very happy with this continued behavior.
idra was bad mannered in BW, EG has their own reasons to recruit idra.
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On May 08 2011 08:03 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:01 bibbaly wrote:On May 08 2011 07:59 Kralic wrote:On May 08 2011 07:57 bibbaly wrote:Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. So you guys still get ad revenue for listing his stream. What? If anything IdrA makes revenue off of TL listing his stream. TL did him a huge favour by leaving it on. Idra's streams usually get 7-12k viewers, don't tell me that team liquid doesn't make a cent off of it. TL just made a cent off you posting about it. His viewers are tied to his stream, not TL website. TL doesn't host the stream nor do they tap into IdrA's ad revenue. The TL ad's are the same as the website's ads and are not injected into his stream. you would see the same ad if you were browsing the forums.
I was trying to say that he brings unique viewers to TL to watch his stream.
Its cleared up however.
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On May 08 2011 07:45 howerpower wrote:
continue shoving your foot into your mouth until the community ends up somewhere else.
This is my favorite comment so far. Ok let's go to the other free SCBW+SC2 site with every feature we could possibly want, the result of years of steady, collaborative improvement.
How many times higher is the average foreign progamer's income because of TL and liquipedia? It's impossible to say, but surely it is at lest double, and likely many times more. The calandar, stream list, best-moderated game forum on the internet, in depth news and strategy articles, constantly updated, well-formated tournament results and schedules, etc, etc -- the product of tens of thousands of hours worth of features, orignial content, and infrastructure.
How can progamers not be grateful for the site that single-handedly built the Starcraft foreign scene?
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On May 08 2011 08:06 Utinni wrote:
I hear Greg doesn't like Protoss. Good Story.
This relates to anything how?
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Don't like the 90 ban just because the first 2 day ban was ridiculous. Just perm ban him already if you think what he does is bad.
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...wait, before this whole funky business, didn't Idra announce during his streams that he wouldn't be streaming for a few days because he would be busy commentating NASL? And then he blamed his lack of streaming to the 2 day ban? Wow, that's pretty dishonest. Idra wasn't going to stream these days anyway. He's just taking the piss.
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It's rather sad to see a very tip-top level pro banned from a community forums for their action(s), but I can't help reviewing the material that IdrA intended for this to happen. It's fairly clear he cares about the attention of the Starcraft community more than his posting rights, which I suppose is his decision.
I'm rather neutral to the whole IdrA vs. Cruncher issue, but even if Cruncher was ghosting on purpose it was still a random ladder game, which IdrA admitted meant nothing to him. This move was probably purely just to stir up drama. It's like watching a soap opera though, rather addictive.
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On May 08 2011 08:02 enexiss wrote:
I don't really see the problem. Cruncher cheated, Idra was (understandably) upset about it.
Chill temp banned and Idra told people to PM him if they have questions or a problem with it.
Did Chill just not like that people think he made a bad call? I'm new to the community, but I don't think having your community be pro-cheater is good for a pro-gaming team.
Do you?
the reason he was banned has very little to do with Cruncher. Idra was upset and insulted cruncher, and on this site, it's pretty clear that attacking any individual is not acceptable. Chill responded according to the expectations of the moderation team and Idra, then decided to attack chill indirectly by telling people to spam chill. After all of that he refused to recognize his error and the decision was made that a 90 day ban would be in the best interest of maintaining the environment TL mods are striving for.
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I'm surprised TL's being so leniant... Not showing a complete lack of respect and common decency isn't exactly a lot to ask for, specially when you're in someone else's house.
Idra's proven several times over that he's not going to change from slaps on the wrist. Delisting his stream would be a slap in the wallet, which might get him to change his tune. Then again, I've never moderator a forum/site this big before so my opinion means very little.
I feel sorry for Chill for probably getting bombarded with spam & hatemail, just for doing his job well.
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MURICA15980 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:59 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:51 Klogon wrote:First of all, if Cruncher is proven to have cheated, we will take action. We have no problem taking action against even the most high profile of players (ex. Dimaga and TSL2/3) but try to do so with careful deliberation. Please do not think our actions here are simply us spitefully swinging a banhammer. You'd be surprised by the pages of discussions we have of actions that involve high-profile community members, Idra included. Also, regarding the "harassing". On May 08 2011 07:05 Karthane wrote:
I don't necessarily think he was encouraging people to "harrass" them. He just said if you have a problem with it message Chill. Whatever though, in the end i think it's better to have IdrA here, streaming on TL. Brings more people here. Hell, he even got 20k to watch Sotg. On May 08 2011 07:20 Mysticvoid wrote:
I feel the 2 day ban was justified. Calling someone a waste a life is pretty low and should be punished. All fine and dandy, what I am not ok with is punishing someone for something they said outside of the forums. Idra didn't tell anyone to harass Chill, Idra said and I quote "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you." Yes he did tell his fans to PM Chill, did he tell them to insult him or harass him? No he didnt and I'm sorry but if mods can't handle getting PMs from people maybe they should reconsider being mods.
Idra on his twitter tried to imply that by being banned, he could no longer stream. That was false. And if we assume he knew it was also false (he probably did), we can then assume that he was miliciously misleading his thousands of twitter followers into a rage against Chill. Thus I think it is fair to say Idra did encourage his fans to go harass Chill. so we can assume that since idra said "pm chill because of him i cant stream" he meant "send chill hatemail and i am not going to stream anymore because of him even thought i know i can" but when cruncher said "well i had the stream open but i muted it and minimized it" we assume he didnt use it to his own benefit at all? So we assume everything Idra says is inherently evil and malicious And we assume Cruncher is innocent of cheating regardless of evidence to the contrary. ?
If you take a step back from your bias and actually look at it in context, it is very clear what Idra intended to do. Do you need evidence? Just look at Chill's inbox full of hatemail. Honestly, this is not a very big leap of logic and I honestly do hope that you can follow it and see why it is a reasonable conclusion to say that Idra was a bit malicious with his tweet.
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On May 08 2011 06:37 TL.net Bot wrote:
Reason: A few days ago, one of our moderators (Chill) banned Idra for 2 days. After the ban, Idra encouraged his fans, through twitter, to harass and spam him on TL.
wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you
I think it would have been more fair to put Idra's actual tweet in the OP. It's weird because usually TL has the exact evidence and everything in their OP's so why leave out his actual tweet? He basically said if you're disappointed I got banned, PM Chill. The reason stated in the OP makes it sound much more malicious.
This whole situation is stupid. IdrA just loses a game to Cruncher where he thinks he is ghosting( I don't know if he was or not) and gets pissed and calls him a waste of life. Also, Cruncher sniped him in the past and didn't leave until all of his buildings were eliminated. Definitely one of the weakest bans ever.
It's weird that you would ban him for that post, but not for the post where he basically shit on team ONE and didn't receive a warning.
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I'm glad, I think IdrA is a relly good player, but his BM is too much, and finally you banned him for longer than 2 days (or a month) (:!
Keep up the good work (:!
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On May 08 2011 08:06 enexiss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:04 TheRhox wrote:On May 08 2011 08:02 enexiss wrote:
I don't really see the problem. Cruncher cheated, Idra was (understandably) upset about it.
Chill temp banned and Idra told people to PM him if they have questions or a problem with it.
Did Chill just not like that people think he made a bad call? I'm new to the community, but I don't think having your community be pro-cheater is good for a pro-gaming team.
Do you? except there's no evidence to support that cruncher cheated. Except that he was watching the stream? What, we're supposed to take his word that he's "Not cheating, honest!" even though he's in the stream and blind counters? Even aside from that, I don't see why having Idra direct people with concerns to the moderator who made the call is wrong.
I don't know what game you're playing but in sc2 chronoing zealots outside your wall to combat a roach all-in after opening nexus first isn't exactly the proper way to "counter". Perhaps you should actually watch the replay before saying something like that?
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On May 08 2011 07:37 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:34 Tranqje wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:On May 08 2011 07:30 Tranqje wrote:
I tought your policy was not to take actions based on assumption. In fact, that was stated multiple times in this topic. So unless Idra literally said to a moderator he asked people to harras and spam chill that is nowhere to be seen in his twitter post.
If he did not do that then you pretty much banned him on an assumption?
What do you mean? He literally said that on his Twitter "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" http://twitter.com/#!/idrajit/status/66276394849673216 It sais to PM Chill if you're upset because of his ban. it doesn't say to spam and harras him. for all we know he could have encouraged a friendly debate. is that a load of crap? most likely, yes. but you can't really prove it ^^ I mean, he didn't say "go harass Chill" but Idra should know at this point that his rabid legion of fans are going to take that statement to mean "go harass Chill." You can't possibly think that he didn't know that would happen?
But where is your 100%, incontrovertible proof?????
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TL is, overall, incredibly reasoned about all of the choices they make (never mind how open they are about it, going lengths to make sure we know what's happening and why when they don't actually have to). I would first ask everyone to consider what a great resource and community we are able to tap into as a result of this site's existence and the hard work of the entire administration/moderation staff.
It's not like there was no reason. It's not like there were no prior warnings and bans. There should be no special treatment and I think we all know that anyone else would have been banned in the exact same way (and likely even for less). TL is even making it rather harmless by keeping the stream listed (and I fully agree with the reasoning of so much of the site being "an informational source").
Even if TL still had ads on there I think it would be justified because TL is essentially advertising for those pro players by giving them a prime spot on the front page of the biggest foreign SC2 site, which is absolutely huge (I wouldn't watch even half as many streams as I do without them being listed on TL and I also don't have a JTV account, meaning that TL and the TL Streams Chrome extension are all that notify me).
I doubt IdrA will stop streaming because he has repeatedly shown how rational he is about streaming, commenting that banning people just lowers his ad revenue and such. Considering that, I'm sure he'll continue to stream and show that is is on TL.
Please note that I highly enjoy IdrA's stream and, in fact, my opinion of him has gotten better over time (in the beginning of SC2 I was practically an anti-fan and now I'm a slight fan who will usually turn on the stream if I see it on).
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On May 08 2011 08:04 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:01 Supamang wrote:On May 08 2011 07:54 wei2coolman wrote:
I wouldn't say Idra was "encouraged" so much as said "if you want to know why I'm banned, PM Chill"
Encourage would be like "Yo, all spam Chill w/ PM's until he unbans me."
Whatever, I hope Idra just mans up and apologizes next time. Because the people missing out are the community members. Complete bullshit. Heres the actual quote: "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you"Dont try to spin that shit. Thats definitely "encouraging" his little band of sycophants to harass Chill. nowhere in there does he say to spam/harrass. You are the one spinning it into something it doesnt say because you want it to? Can a post get more ironic than this?
You are amazingly snide for someone who cant think past the shallowest layer of the situation.
If you tell all of your followers to PM the person who banned you, what the fuck do you think is gonna happen?
Also, for what reason would Idra want his little flunkies to PM Chill? You think his intent was to get people to ask nicely for an unban? Of course not. If he tells "Everyone" to PM Chill, his intent is to spam Chill to coerce him for an unban.
Try to get some critical thinking skills here.
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No matter who it is you can't encourage people to spam and go after Mods on any forum. It would set a bad precedent for everyone else.
And he wasn't banned because he accused Cruncher of cheating which he clearly did, it was in the manner in which he said it.
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On May 08 2011 07:48 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:45 Frozenserpent wrote:On May 08 2011 07:24 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:
[quote]
This is honestly ridiculous.
How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing He said the stream was muted and minimized. You're saying that there is no evidence of ghosting. But there simply is, which you've admitted yourself. The case for Cruncher cheating is: Cruncher has dual monitors (this I don't personally know, but from the sounds of it is already known). Cruncher has the stream open for the duration of the game. Cruncher had suspicious behavior in-game. The defense for Cruncher is: he says that he had the stream muted and minimized. Is this not quite strong evidence? Suppose Cruncher was caught having maphack on his computer. You ask him about it, and he says, "oh, i just have maphack because I only use it for custom games with friends. I don't use it for ladder." Would you declare that there is no evidence against him then? Suppose Cruncher was taking a test and was caught with a book open with the answers. "Oh, I was just studying for the test beforehand. I wasn't looking at the book." Would you declare that there is no evidence of cheating taking place? Evidently there is some evidence. As for cheating cases go, it's quite a bit of evidence. Maybe you want to trust Cruncher on his word. That's fine. But don't act like there isn't a good reason to think that he ghosted. After all, the evidence for Cruncher ghosting is enough evidence to cause a student to be declared a cheater on a test. And I can understand why mods would want to ban Idra for 90 days after his twitter, but take another real-life scenario that we can relate to. Suppose Idra got arrested by a police officer, and he felt it was unjust. He tweets about the incident and asks people to contact the police officer in question if they feel strongly about it. Would that be cause for Idra to be arrested for a longer period of time? I don't think so. It's fine to be upset about an incident and to urge people to contact a figure of authority. In the end, TL mods can do whatever the hell they like. There isn't a rigorous code they must abide by. They don't have to be consistent in judgments. Personally even though I am a huge Idra fan I can't really fault TL too much for how they handled it. But you have to admit that there is reason to see why some Idra fans think it's unjust. If similar things were to happen in real life (outside of TL), Cruncher would be the one in legitimate trouble and Idra wouldn't be, with the same kind of evidence. What you're talking about is circumstantial evidence. Nothing of what you claim is evidence he cheated proves he did. What you're saying proves he could, but not that he did.
I can show you a lot of cases where people have been proven guilty with circumstantial evidence, and here in this case i dont really see any reason to not ban Cruncher for cheating.
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You must be proud Nazgul.
Cool story
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
