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On March 16 2024 09:57 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 09:54 Fango wrote:On March 16 2024 09:46 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote:
Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it. I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most. It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format. Oh believe me, I think Serral would have won like at least 5 GSLs by now if he played in Korea. He's recently shown his preparation and map/build choices are superb. Although you never know, sOs won every international event possible (Katowice, Blizzcon twice, IEM, even a GSL Hot6 Cup and never clutched a a Code S trophy. Rogue did all of the same and it took him a few more years to do so. But at the end of the day, Serral didn't. You can't compare imaginary results with real ones. You can't ignore Maru winning 9 Starleagues, because Serral didn't play in them. You have to just put their achievements down on paper and decide whose was greater. Yeah so greatest as in strongest or most accomplished ever ? There's a nuance. Not mutually incompatible to think 'I value Code Ss and Proleagues highly thus Maru is the latter' and 'I'd pick Serral to defend the Earth against invading Aliens in a Bo7 anytime since 2018' simultaneously.
You an even do a 50/50 split of strength and accomplishments.
Serral and Maru are probably 1 and 2 for strength, in that order. But if you take strength within their own races/balance into account then Maru is probably number 1 (even more nuance)
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
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"7x GSL Code S titles + 8x other Liquipedia-premier titles"
"Recorded three of the most dominant Proleague seasons"
"Over ten uninterrupted years as a top-tier player"
>Lists notable tournament finishes
"3x World Champion + 22x other Liquipedia-premier titles"
"Positive winrate against every top player of his era"
"Multiple historically great stretches in terms of raw winrate"
>Links to liquipedia page instead of listing notable tournament finishes, because there are simply far too many
lol
There is just no way someone who's been winning GSLs on and off since '18 is placed above someone who's been winning WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS on and off since '18
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On March 16 2024 10:06 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 09:57 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 09:54 Fango wrote:On March 16 2024 09:46 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote:
Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it. I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most. It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format. Oh believe me, I think Serral would have won like at least 5 GSLs by now if he played in Korea. He's recently shown his preparation and map/build choices are superb. Although you never know, sOs won every international event possible (Katowice, Blizzcon twice, IEM, even a GSL Hot6 Cup and never clutched a a Code S trophy. Rogue did all of the same and it took him a few more years to do so. But at the end of the day, Serral didn't. You can't compare imaginary results with real ones. You can't ignore Maru winning 9 Starleagues, because Serral didn't play in them. You have to just put their achievements down on paper and decide whose was greater. Yeah so greatest as in strongest or most accomplished ever ? There's a nuance. Not mutually incompatible to think 'I value Code Ss and Proleagues highly thus Maru is the latter' and 'I'd pick Serral to defend the Earth against invading Aliens in a Bo7 anytime since 2018' simultaneously. You an even do a 50/50 split of strength and accomplishments. Serral and Maru are probably 1 and 2 for strength, in that order. But if you take strength within their own races/balance into account then Maru is probably number 1 (even more nuance) But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
I think that's a very reasonable position. I'm a winrate guy so I like Serral's all-time record in that regard. It's like 85% vs 75% between the two for the last 6 years. But Maru's 10 years to 6 overcome that if you overweight longevity, which Miz does.
Personally I'm a bit more in the counterfactual, which is that you can't really fault Serral for coming of age in 2018. I also think an underdiscussed factor is he did it all himself from Pornainen, rather than the team house sponsored by the largest Korean conglomerates. No offence to ENCE but the fortitude it takes to emerge all the way to world champion as an individual, rather than in a large structure, is truly the mark of a singular, godlike talent.
I'm not super keen on discussing balance as this will derail the thread in less than 3 seconds 
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On March 16 2024 10:18 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Personally I'm a bit more in the counterfactual, which is that you can't really fault Serral for coming of age in 2018. I also think an underdiscussed factor is he did it all himself from Pornainen, rather than the team house sponsored by the largest Korean conglomerates. No offence to ENCE but the fortitude it takes to emerge all the way to world champion as an individual, rather than in a large structure, is truly the mark of a singular, godlike talent. I'm not super keen on discussing balance as this will derail the thread in less than 3 seconds
That is indeed one good point you have there. He lives in a rural village of 5000 people, spread in between forests and fields. He practices all alone in his parents house, with no team support whatsoever. Of course he talks and practices with friends, but especially before his championship in 2018, I doubt he had much outside help besides studying from other pro´s games and training mostly by himself. And he beat everyone in the world like 1 year straight with just that. Can anybody even fanthom how incredible is that ? Its like training tennis in your background for 5 years, and then suddenly go to Wimbledon and beat Djokovic at the finals......like wtf man ??
On March 16 2024 07:25 TL.net ESPORTS wrote:
• 3x World Champion and 22x other Liquipedia-premier tournament wins
• Positive win rate against every top player of his era
• Multiple historically great stretches in terms of raw win rate
There is no single key to Serral's greatness, as he has become possibly the most complete player in the history of the game. Possessing extraordinary mechanics, multitasking, scouting, and decision-making, Serral plays an oppressive read-and-react macro style for which there is almost no counterplay.
Overall, Serral has an extremely strong case to be called the Greatest of All Time, and only places runner-up by a slim margin.
Like really, after those words, which everybody can agree on, how in earth is he not number one in this list, lol ??
Ok, ok, like I said in the other thread, cant be too mad about the result since Maru is an incredible player too and very worthy of the title too.
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Harstem was right. KR still Has by far the better overall player pools. Serral is an outlier.
The most underrated part of Serral is how he achieved everything without having a lot of the privileges all top Korean players enjoyed in at least some parts of their career: teamhouses, coaches, high quality practice partners, KR ladder and etc. He somehow just became the most all-around perfect player ever by playing on EU ladder, practicing with Spirit and Oliveira most of the time, and probably meditating in some Finland forest, idk.
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Hard to balance best player (Serral) against greatest career (Maru). I look forward to the inevitable wave of 1-post accounts accusing Miz of clickbait, korean elitism, and general shady dealings =/.
I still think Serral is the GOAT, considering how he almost single-handedly changed the narrative of SC2 from Koreans being immortal against foreigners in that fateful 2018 Blizzcon (to be fair, Neeb started that a little bit by being the first foreigner to win a tournament on Korean soil, but it wasn't nearly as momentous as a Blizzcon).
Serral also did that from the EU region, which was so much less competitive at the time. Seriously, I still don't know how he got so good without being immersed in Korean SC2. Nobody who plays in the minor leagues gets better than everyone in the major leagues. This is obviously hyperbole, but it's like learning to become a grandmaster by practicing against easy AI. He single-handedly raised the EU bar and fostered the rise of players like Clem and Reynor who could compete on a world stage since any region with Serral suddenly had to compete at a major league level if they wanted to win anything, even if it was region locked. Serral's win in 2018 defined what we all call the "modern" era of SC2 and then he just kept playing at that level.
I seriously cannot think of another player who changed SC2 and the narrative around it more than Serral, and so even though Maru had the longer and more distinguished career, I still believe Serral is the GOAT.
Anyway, despite my disagreement, thank you Miz for all the work you put in and all the discussion that resulted from it =)
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Serral is truly the GOAT of GOATS in SC2
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[B] Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player.
You're delusional - he wouldn't be on anyone's GOAT list if he'd retired at the end of 2017. Maru's single claim to fame is his back-to-back-to-back-to-back GSL run. Impressive as all hell, yes, but this statement that he was goated before that is just rewriting history.
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On March 16 2024 09:47 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote:
I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it? You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title. The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player. Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements.
Here’s the biggest difference for me. Serral never won GSL. How many did he compete in? 0. I think any reasonable person agrees that if Serral played in GSL over the years he would have won plenty.
How many world championships did Maru compete in? All of them essentially. He never won. Same conditions as Serral. Sure you can put head to head aside (but let’s be honest, in every sport if someone dominates you that much it’s hard to make an argument for the person on the losing end to be GOAT), but I don’t get it. You can make 1-2 logical arguments why Maru is GOAT. You can make many more for Serral. My point was that if you use the same logic as the rest of the list, then you can’t rank Maru first based on that criteria. I get why some people would put Maru #1, but those same people would not have Rain over Dark.
I’m not even going to touch on Pro League since this is SC2. Sure it’s entertaining but no one seriously thinks pro league drove anything in SC2 like it did in SCBW. The level of the play in pro league was akin to GSL for a very short period of time and it was before Serral was anywhere near his peak. Not his fault, and if there was a relevant pro league during his time, Serral would have dominated it.
I’m all for driving discussion and clicks. I get it. But unless you hate logic, you can’t argue this isn’t just clickbait garbage and I don’t think it belongs in any serious discussion.
I don’t think it’s said often enough but it boils down to this. Everything you can say Maru did not accomplish in his career is because of SC2 games he lost. In a booth. Versus whoever he was up against. Everything you can say Serral did not accomplish in his career is because he did not compete in it. He was not scared - he made financial and life decisions that made sense to him. I even think you can argue that what he has accomplished WITHOUT the advantages of living and competing in Korea (I think everyone agrees for esports, the team house and coaching plus level of completion there is on another level) makes him even better. He is an outlier. He changed the scene from an area where he didn’t have the competition to elevate him, yet he still did it himself.
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from serral's perspective it must be absolutely wild. Like what more does the guy have to do?
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On March 16 2024 14:54 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 09:47 Fango wrote:On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote:
I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it? You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title. The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player. Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements. Here’s the biggest difference for me. Serral never won GSL. How many did he compete in? 0. I think any reasonable person agrees that if Serral played in GSL over the years he would have won plenty. How many world championships did Maru compete in? All of them essentially. He never won. Same conditions as Serral. Sure you can put head to head aside (but let’s be honest, in every sport if someone dominates you that much it’s hard to make an argument for the person on the losing end to be GOAT), but I don’t get it. You can make 1-2 logical arguments why Maru is GOAT. You can make many more for Serral. My point was that if you use the same logic as the rest of the list, then you can’t rank Maru first based on that criteria. I get why some people would put Maru #1, but those same people would not have Rain over Dark. I’m not even going to touch on Pro League since this is SC2. Sure it’s entertaining but no one seriously thinks pro league drove anything in SC2 like it did in SCBW. The level of the play in pro league was akin to GSL for a very short period of time and it was before Serral was anywhere near his peak. Not his fault, and if there was a relevant pro league during his time, Serral would have dominated it. I’m all for driving discussion and clicks. I get it. But unless you hate logic, you can’t argue this isn’t just clickbait garbage and I don’t think it belongs in any serious discussion. I don’t think it’s said often enough but it boils down to this. Everything you can say Maru did not accomplish in his career is because of SC2 games he lost. In a booth. Versus whoever he was up against. Everything you can say Serral did not accomplish in his career is because he did not compete in it. He was not scared - he made financial and life decisions that made sense to him. I even think you can argue that what he has accomplished WITHOUT the advantages of living and competing in Korea (I think everyone agrees for esports, the team house and coaching plus level of completion there is on another level) makes him even better. He is an outlier. He changed the scene from an area where he didn’t have the competition to elevate him, yet he still did it himself.
This is actually a perfect summation for me. If SC2 ended before Katowice last year, I'd have given it to Maru. But one player bombs out in perplexing fashion--comes back and has the 2nd most invincible stretch of his career, plus the most dominant Kato run ever en route to winning his 3rd World Championship. The other player follows losing the single biggest upset in history with an underwhelming season (by his standards), then getting swept 4-0 by his closest rival on this list. That's a fact. Those things happened. Not conjecture about motivations or what-ifs or other excuses. All with legacy implications plus an extra hundred-thousand on the line.
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United States33289 Posts
On March 16 2024 15:04 Comedy wrote:
from serral's perspective it must be absolutely wild. Like what more does the guy have to do?
From Serral's perspective I would think he doesn't care at all, and the main concern of his is making sure he never ever cries for a photographer again (very successful so far).
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Zergs have been overpowered for the last 5 years but I do think Serral is still a better achiever even taking that benefits into consideration. Just because Terran is the strongest race in SC1 it doesn't take Flash's achievement away. I do however hope people who puts Serral as GOAT(just like myself) admits that Serral has benefited from the state of the balance too.
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Great articles, trash tiering.
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I applauded this result, but in my opinion it is much better putting Serral on no.3 rather no.2. Rogue should be ahead of him, if not for the early two-year retirement.
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I knew you were going to do this. What an amazingly biased methodology to fit the result you wanted. It's really a shame, because the articles themselves are really good. Rain in and Dark out was outrageous, but this just proves a complete lack of objectivity.
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Northern Ireland24739 Posts
On March 16 2024 16:51 swarminfestor wrote:
I applauded this result, but in my opinion it is much better putting Serral on no.3 rather no.2. Rogue should be ahead of him, if not for the early two-year retirement.
Based on what metric would Rogue be ahead of Serral?
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Northern Ireland24739 Posts
On March 16 2024 15:47 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 14:54 onPHYRE wrote:On March 16 2024 09:47 Fango wrote:On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote:
I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it? You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title. The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player. Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements. Here’s the biggest difference for me. Serral never won GSL. How many did he compete in? 0. I think any reasonable person agrees that if Serral played in GSL over the years he would have won plenty. How many world championships did Maru compete in? All of them essentially. He never won. Same conditions as Serral. Sure you can put head to head aside (but let’s be honest, in every sport if someone dominates you that much it’s hard to make an argument for the person on the losing end to be GOAT), but I don’t get it. You can make 1-2 logical arguments why Maru is GOAT. You can make many more for Serral. My point was that if you use the same logic as the rest of the list, then you can’t rank Maru first based on that criteria. I get why some people would put Maru #1, but those same people would not have Rain over Dark. I’m not even going to touch on Pro League since this is SC2. Sure it’s entertaining but no one seriously thinks pro league drove anything in SC2 like it did in SCBW. The level of the play in pro league was akin to GSL for a very short period of time and it was before Serral was anywhere near his peak. Not his fault, and if there was a relevant pro league during his time, Serral would have dominated it. I’m all for driving discussion and clicks. I get it. But unless you hate logic, you can’t argue this isn’t just clickbait garbage and I don’t think it belongs in any serious discussion. I don’t think it’s said often enough but it boils down to this. Everything you can say Maru did not accomplish in his career is because of SC2 games he lost. In a booth. Versus whoever he was up against. Everything you can say Serral did not accomplish in his career is because he did not compete in it. He was not scared - he made financial and life decisions that made sense to him. I even think you can argue that what he has accomplished WITHOUT the advantages of living and competing in Korea (I think everyone agrees for esports, the team house and coaching plus level of completion there is on another level) makes him even better. He is an outlier. He changed the scene from an area where he didn’t have the competition to elevate him, yet he still did it himself. This is actually a perfect summation for me. If SC2 ended before Katowice last year, I'd have given it to Maru. But one player bombs out in perplexing fashion--comes back and has the 2nd most invincible stretch of his career, plus the most dominant Kato run ever en route to winning his 3rd World Championship. The other player follows losing the single biggest upset in history with an underwhelming season (by his standards), then getting swept 4-0 by his closest rival on this list. That's a fact. Those things happened. Not conjecture about motivations or what-ifs or other excuses. All with legacy implications plus an extra hundred-thousand on the line.
Aye that’s me personally although I’ve very much enjoyed the list and won’t quibble too much on placement!
Maru’s been around forever and hasn’t put in one singular clutch WC run. Sure he’s had deep placements but often he’s just beating the guys he’s outright better than and frequently come unstuck when it’s a serious rival. Or in Oliveira just fluffed his lines when he’s the on-paper favourite
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Pretending your ranking was based on results and then placing a triple world champion behind a player who never won it is strange to say the least
But tbh it's not even the worst thing we've seen in these GOAT articles
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EPT
