On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88(81.12%) in games and 153–14(91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
Aye, I think some of us (I was a doubter) felt that one could get to those kind of match win rates, but you’d need to make Bo7s the standard match format.
Even against worse opposition I might add. Even when someone like Stephano was a clear cut above other foreigners when it came to actually going toe-to-toe with top Korean talent, he didn’t dominate his fellow foreigners to anything like that degree.
Perhaps Oliveira or Special can put up similar numbers for their regions over the years, which is impressive in itself but of course Serral’s doing so versus the top dogs.
Another fun caveat is that Serral’s numbers and rating on Aligulac would be even higher if he played in weeklies as well. Probably not a fun prospect for the regulars in those mind!
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
You were irritated because people have opinions?
I come here, and have to read "Life GOAT," "sOs GOAT," and recently "Rogue GOAT" over and over, and it only amuses me. At that time, Serral wasn't only winning almost everything, he was showing numbers that had never been seen before. In the view of many fans, most dominating ever = GOAT, so I don't see any problem with this. Everyone has their own criteria. SC2 is still ongoing; one could say crowning anybody GOAT right now is "premature."
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Come on, just because casters called him the Goat, doesn't mean he had any right to be in the conversation after 2 tournament wins with korean competition (that's when they started it). If me and my buddys start calling DRG the Goat, it doesn't make him a Goat contender.
If you look at the actual accomplishments there's just no way Serral's pre-2022 resumee holds up compared to Inno, Maru, Rogue, Mvp or even Life.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Come on, just because casters called him the Goat, doesn't mean he had any right to be in the conversation after 2 tournament wins with korean competition (that's when they started it). If me and my buddys start calling DRG the Goat, it doesn't make him a Goat contender.
If you look at the actual accomplishments there's just no way Serral's pre-2022 resumee holds up compared to Inno, Maru, Rogue, Mvp or even Life.
He’s got a very decent top 10 claim by at least the end of 2019, perhaps not one for the top spot absolutely, that wouldn’t be for a while.
But he’s in the conversation with a bunch of names, he’s just not going to come out on the top at that stage.
I mean I’m of the opinion that SC2 has undergone so much flux in format, different expos etc that it’s not possible to have some definitive GOAT, merely be in the conversation.
Most claims have some kind of hole in them. Life didn’t last, Inno never really stepped up at a World Champ, Maru still hasn’t won a big standard offline weekender outside of Europe etc. Serral’s coming in a more depressed era etc.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Come on, just because casters called him the Goat, doesn't mean he had any right to be in the conversation after 2 tournament wins with korean competition (that's when they started it). If me and my buddys start calling DRG the Goat, it doesn't make him a Goat contender.
If you look at the actual accomplishments there's just no way Serral's pre-2022 resumee holds up compared to Inno, Maru, Rogue, Mvp or even Life.
He’s got a very decent top 10 claim by at least the end of 2019, perhaps not one for the top spot absolutely, that wouldn’t be for a while.
But he’s in the conversation with a bunch of names, he’s just not going to come out on the top at that stage.
I mean I’m of the opinion that SC2 has undergone so much flux in format, different expos etc that it’s not possible to have some definitive GOAT, merely be in the conversation.
Most claims have some kind of hole in them. Life didn’t last, Inno never really stepped up at a World Champ, Maru still hasn’t won a big standard offline weekender outside of Europe etc. Serral’s coming in a more depressed era etc.
Then I guess we just have different definitions what it means to be a "Goat contender". I interpreted it as 'has a legitimate claim to be the greatest of all time' and not 'be in the top 10'.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
I still remember the "innovation is the most skilled player to ever touch the game" by tastosis during early hots. That was peak intellectual honesty I guess. Dear got called as such as well during his short domination.
Overhyping player when they begin a dominating streak is nothing new.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
Serral's name simply wasn't on the GOAT debate list 2018, because people assumed he'd be gone after 1 or 2 years... he won 7 Premier Tournaments that year, 3 of which were with top Korean participation. If 2018 was a year where competition was still deep, Serral played against these top dogs too. As a matter of fact, 2018 is one of the 3 years, where Serral had an over 85% match win rate versus top Koreans (the majority of pros doesn't even reach 70%, except for a handful over the years... Maru had 67,69% in 2018 as a comparison).
And only because Serral's name came into the GOAT debate 2022, doesn't mean that he didn't have achievements before that. Fact is, Maru won most of his tournaments (except two) 2018 and later, same as Serral.
I really wonder, if Serral and Maru keep going at the same rate (Serral having much better win rates, more won tournaments and better records against individual players) in 20 years will be like: Yeah, both are amazing, but Maru has 2 more PT wins pre-2018, lol. At one point, dominance needs to outclass a couple of more active years, where the respected player didn't really win all that much.
Yeah Serral's 2018 was amazing and impressive and all but they aren't enough to put him into Goat conversation. For Serral to be a Goat contender he absolutely needs his results from 2022 onwards to be considered highly, Maru was already a Goat contender before that.0
I didn't say it was, although it clearly was vocalized by people.
And I still don't get your point. Yes, Maru was a GOAT contender before Serral, but Serral's ascension was what got in the way of a probably uncontested GOAT status for Maru, despite Maru's shortcomings. Rogue is #3 for most, so without Serral, Maru would be the GOAT for most people (myself included). It is simply as I pointed out: the individual results of Maru pre-2018 are not enough for me to put him before the inhuman dominance that Serral is displaying in his 7th year now. And I'd really like to know this: Let's say things continue as they are now... Serral's dominance in won Premier Tournaments with top Korean participation, his insane records versus top players as well as his win rates stay the same. How long would it take for you to accept that Serral is the GOAT? He has been dominating this game for around half its existance in a way no one else even remotely comes close (I posted the insane match win rates of Serral in comparison to other pros before)... so how long does he need to continue doing this? Or wouldn't it matter to you, even if he did so for another 7 years as he never played in the Kespa era?
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
So disgusting yeah sure when the narrative being rogue won 3 wc and was dominating during "peak starcraft" when his first tourney win is from mid 2017 But no distortion of facts by the koreaboo of this forum sure For Maru I agree tho since 2013 the guy is amazing
Korean StarCraft II was incredibly robust in 2017 and 2018. SSL was still running in 2017, VSL was around, GSL was holding multiple super tournaments and GSL vs the World. Lots of players were streaming and traveling to events as well since they needed to make up the salary they didn't have anymore. You had Rogue, TY, Stats, Dark and more becoming championship contenders, while big names like INnoVation, Classic, soO, Maru, Zest etc were still in the latter stages of their primes. Did Rogue dominate during "peak starcraft"? I think that's a dumb statement. He was never dominant, but he starting becoming a much better question during what was still a hyper competitive environment (only the b teamers quit in 2016 and 2017).
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
So disgusting yeah sure when the narrative being rogue won 3 wc and was dominating during "peak starcraft" when his first tourney win is from mid 2017 But no distortion of facts by the koreaboo of this forum sure For Maru I agree tho since 2013 the guy is amazing
Korean StarCraft II was incredibly robust in 2017 and 2018. SSL was still running in 2017, VSL was around, GSL was holding multiple super tournaments and GSL vs the World. Lots of players were streaming and traveling to events as well since they needed to make up the salary they didn't have anymore. You had Rogue, TY, Stats, Dark and more becoming championship contenders, while big names like INnoVation, Classic, soO, Maru, Zest etc were still in the latter stages of their primes. Did Rogue dominate during "peak starcraft"? I think that's a dumb statement. He was never dominant, but he starting becoming a much better question during what was still a hyper competitive environment (only the b teamers quit in 2016 and 2017).
I think it's fair to say that Rogue was dominant offline, especially outside of Korea, having the highest offline winrate vs Koreans after Serral. He made into the ro4 5 times of WCs, and won 3 of them. That's pretty wild. Even with his relatively weak online record, he somehow has >50% record vs Serral online. The more I think about it, the more it seems Rogue and Maru are pretty close. WC I weigh much more heavily than a GSL, but Maru does have 3 2nd place finishes, the big Chinese one, and a 2nd in another, which are extremely high merits. Maru's recent GSL wins have been diminished in prestige due to diminishing prize money, which is very sad. I think all in all, they're very, very close post-2018. I guess Maru's Kespa-era performance edges it out for him.
Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
In pre-cabal times we also had some of the worst periods of balance out there, except the theory then was for some reason Blizz were favouring Zergs because there were a lot of decent foreign Zergs.
I’m really not a fan of such theories, without clear evidence to the contrary I prefer to assume good faith attempts to make a balanced game and a fun game, even if results are imperfect.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
david kim =/= the intern that gave us 2019
Was David Kim not in charge for both the BL/Infestor and swarmhost turtle metas?
Was David Kim not in charge for both the BL/Infestor and swarmhost turtle metas?
Depends on what you mean by "in charge" He was in charge of balance (and some unit design) More than just one dude decides what goes into the game, and he has knobs to turn. Swarmhost was just a tough unit to balance, period.
EPT
