• 3x World Champion and 22x other Liquipedia-premier tournament wins • Positive win rate against every top player of his era • Multiple historically great stretches in terms of raw win rate
The second place spot on the list goes to Serral, a player who shattered the conventional wisdom on what a player from outside the Korean system could achieve and the degree of dominance that's possible in the modern age of StarCraft II.
Coming into his prime during an era of extreme difficulty for the so-called "foreigners," Serral went on to win over twenty Liquipedia-premier tournaments—including two IEM Katowice titles and a WCS Global Championship—while becoming widely acclaimed by his peers as the best player in the world. Even though Serral did not compete in GSL Code S, his tournament results show that no one was better at maximizing success in their given opportunities.
There is no single key to Serral's greatness, as he has become possibly the most complete player in the history of the game. Possessing extraordinary mechanics, multitasking, scouting, and decision-making, Serral plays an oppressive read-and-react macro style for which there is almost no counterplay.
Overall, Serral has an extremely strong case to be called the Greatest of All Time, and only places runner-up by a slim margin.
Career Overview: The Paradigm Shift
Serral is unlike any other player on this list, rising to become one of the best StarCraft II players ever from outside of Korea's vaunted esports institutions.
The Finnish Phenom's career can be divided into two distinct phases: before and after he graduated from high school to play StarCraft II full-time. Serral was active in the competitive scene from as early as 2011, with his first recorded offline games on Aligulac being in that year's World Cyber Games (WCG) Finland Nationals when he was thirteen years old. From then on, he continued to be quite active in offline tournaments, competing in many of the "open bracket" style tournaments in Europe such as DreamHack Opens, Assembly, and smaller local LANs. Over the years, Serral gradually improved to become the top player in Finland, and then one of the strongest players in the non-Korean scene.
Well, maybe it would be more accurate to say one of the most intriguing players. Despite showing occasional glimmers of brilliance against top players, Serral's actual tournament results remained rather pedestrian. After becoming age-eligible to compete on the WCS Circuit, he only qualified for three Circuit events between 2014-2016, with a round-of-16 finish being his best result. In terms of standalone LAN events, his best result in this period was a single round-of-8 run at DreamHack Leipzig 2016.
The first clash in a legendary rivalry: Serral vs Smix.
"...One day, this fifteen-year-old was going to become one of the best players in the world. He would give the rest of the world hope against the Koreans, but not with cunning and guile—the traditional weapons of the foreigner. No, Serral would become an incarnation of overwhelming power. From the very start, he was a macro player: living by the tech swap, dying by his drones, and taking pride in games which went late.
For a time, that was his weakness. Tournament after tournament, qualifier after qualifier, he played great—up until he lost."
However, in 2017, we finally saw Serral's potential "explode," as the Korean expression goes, going from Europe's worst-kept ladder secret to a player who could deliver in tournaments. He started off his year with an impressive RO8 finish at IEM Katowice, which was an incredible accomplishment for a non-Korean player at the time. From the very beginning of StarCraft II, Korean region players had ruled the competitive scene with an iron fist. But if the early years featured foreigner heroes such as NaNiwa, HuK, and Stephano who could occasionally fight their way into championship contention, the situation became rapidly hopeless for players outside of Korea over time. By 2015, the competitive disparity had become so extreme that Blizzard felt forced to implement a 'hard' region lock to separate Korea and the rest of world, save a handful of events. Even though Serral's run at Katowice ended in a one-sided, 0-3 loss to elite Zerg Dark in the RO8, he had still made a huge impact by beating the Korean trio of Patience, Zest, and TRUE to reach that point in the first place.
Serral's graduation from school in June served as an accelerant, as he started playing full-time StarCraft II for the first time. This helped him achieve his career best result by placing second place at WCS Jonkoping (barely losing 3-4 to Neeb in the finals), while he placed RO8 at the three other Circuit events. Even though Serral's accomplishments were overshadowed by Neeb winning three out of four WCS Circuit events on the year, fans could be justifiably hyped for what would come in 2018.
If Serral's potential "exploded" in 2017, then there's no word to describe what happened in 2018. The first half of the year saw Serral build on his momentum from 2017, finally winning his first WCS Circuit event in Leipzig and following it up with top four finishes at the IEM World Championship and the World Electronic Esports Games (WESG). However, the latter two events also showed the (temporary) limits of his growing abilities: he was 3-0'd by Classic in Poland and 3-0'd again by Maru in China. Even if he had become the best foreigner—he was still just a foreigner when he went up against the very best players from Korea.
The summer months saw Serral continue to run the Circuit as he won championships in Austin and Valencia, playing on an entirely different level compared to the rest of the field. This further inflamed the discussion around Serral and what his ceiling might be. He was clearly the best non-Korean the scene had seen since 2012, was completely outclassing his peers on the Circuit, and he had notched several wins against Code S-caliber players in the lower rounds of other tournaments. But did that mean he could actually hang with the true championship contenders in a "tier 1" event? Depending on who you asked, his losses in WESG and IEM could either be proof of his limitations or mere growing pains.
Serral would soon have his say in this debate, but not through social media or the forums. At August's GSL vs. The World 2018, he let his gameplay do the talking. Serral started off the event with a 3-0 win over Brazil's Kelazhur, which was to be expected from the reigning king of the WCS Circuit. However, he gave the Korean elitists a jolt in the following round, taking a 3-0 over INnoVation where the Machine barely looked like he had a chance. If one was still not convinced of Serral's abilities, he defeated Dark—who had thoroughly chastised him at IEM Katowice 2017—by a 3-1 score in the semifinals. In the grand finals, he applied the coup de grace with a 4-3 victory over Stats. The Shield of Aiur had been the best Protoss in the world since late 2016, and had earned his finals berth by beating the then two-time Code S winner Maru in the semis. By beating a top-tier Code S trio of INnoVation, Dark, and Stats to win a championship in Korea, Serral had emphatically silenced his doubters.
To say that the StarCraft II scene was officially put on notice would be an understatement. With his win at GSL vs the World, Serral had forcefully inserted himself into the discussion for best player in the world, something no foreigner had ever done since Stephano in 2012.
After a pit stop in WCS Montreal to complete the first ever Circuit sweep (although he nearly lost in the finals to future rival Reynor), Serral was ready to reach for his ultimate goal: winning the WCS Global Championship.
Although Serral had not played against any Korean players since GSL vs. The World, his convincing performance at that event made him one of the clear championship favorites headed into BlizzCon 2018. The main concern for Serral wasn't anything objective, but rather a curse grounded in the larger mythos of StarCraft II. Foreign hopes had a long and painful history of falling short in the biggest moments, and even the few that succeeded had never won a tournament of this magnitude. Why should this kid from Pornainen be any different?
However, Serral quickly showed that the ghosts of the past belonged in the past. He advanced through the group stages with wins against sOs and Zest without dropping a single game. His RO8 match was against Dark, a player who had previously been considered the ultimate 'foreigner-killer.' But just as in GSL vs. the World, Serral shattered that reputation and took a 3-0 victory. The next series against Rogue—the reigning BlizzCon champion—went the same way. Even though the games were decided by the slimmest of margins and Rogue played inspired StarCraft from start to finish, Serral was too good in the end. Rogue could only take one map off of Serral and conceded the 1-3 loss.
By the time Serral stepped up to play against Stats in the grand finals, there was already a feeling that it would be a coronation. The previous rounds had made it clear that he was playing the game at the highest level since professional StarCraft II had begun, and now he'd have a chance to play his best match-up of ZvP in a seven-game series.
Stats and Serral had gone all the way to game seven when they played at GSL vs. the World (Stats had been the only player to really trouble Serral during this ascendent stretch), but Serral had improved even further in the span of a few months. Serral immediately took all the air out of the series, taking a commanding position with three straight wins. While Stats kept the scoreline respectable by clawing back two points, the final result was never in doubt. Serral closed the series out in game six, finishing a historic world championship journey. After stoically lifting the trophy five times that year, Serra's ice-cold demeanor finally dropped on the BlizzCon stage. As he held the trophy in his arms, tears started to well in his eyes. Without a shadow of a doubt, he had proved he was the best player in the world.
Becoming the best is one thing. But staying the best? That's an entirely different challenge. The fact that Serral managed stay at the top of competitive SC2, or at least shared the summit for the next five years, is why he arrived at #2 on this list.
Unrelated aside: the old WCS Circuit trophies were really nice!
Serral began his 2019 campaign by having his reign immediately challenged on multiple fronts, and one of the overarching stories of the year became how the competitive StarCraft II scene tried to 'fight back' against such a disruptive force. soO was the first to halt Serral's momentum, sending him out of IEM Katowice 2019 in the RO8—Serral's first non-championship finish in nearly a year. The enigmatic INnoVation dealt a follow-up blow shortly after at the WESG main event, looking nothing like the meek Machine from their GSL vs. The World encounter as he took a 4-3 victory in the finals. Serral was knocked down a peg in region-locked competition as well, with the rising prodigy Reynor defeating him to take the WCS Winter: Europe crown. The fighting between Reynor and Serral grew even more fierce as the year went on, and the rivals ultimately ended up splitting WCS Circuit titles two apiece.
In international competitions, Serral hit back during the Summer's GSL vs. The World 2019, winning the tournament for the second year in a row. However, he looked vulnerable once more at Assembly Summer 2019, where Stats finally got some revenge by knocking Serral out in the semifinals of a tournament played in his home country of Finland.
The big test for Serral and his challengers would come at the year-end 2019 WCS Global Finals. Even though Serral's aura of invincibility had faded somewhat since 2018, he had still achieved the best overall results of anyone on the year (earning the #1 overall seed) and had remained the most dominant player in terms of in-game performances. TL.net users still picked him as the prohibitive favorite to win, giving him over 50% of the votes in a poll about the eventual champion.
The fans seemed wise indeed during the initial rounds, as Serral blew through his group with a 6-0 map record (this BlizzCon tournament featured BO5 matches in groups), and then swept soO in the quarterfinals to keep his perfect record. However, the bracket draw had put Reynor into the same half as Serral, forcing him to play his most dangerous opponent in the semifinals. The two had traded blows evenly all year, and it was the closest thing to a 50/50 match that Serral could face. Reynor was just slightly better in this particular clash, and he beat Serral 3-2 to deny him a chance at a second consecutive WCS Global Championship.
Serral's 2020 began with another top four world championship finish, as he fought his way to the IEM Katowice semifinals before bowing out to Zest's innovative reimagining of Glaive-Adept openers. Back-to-back top four finishes at world championship events would have been a great outcome for almost any other player, but these kinds of results were already starting to feel like a bare minimum for Serral.
Unfortunately, we've never seen noted hat aficionado Serral wear this particular item again.
The COVID-19 era of SC2 began immediately after Katowice, forcing the entire non-Korean scene into exclusively online play for a two year period. Other pro players continued to gradually make up ground on Serral during this time, and they limited him to 'just' five Liquipedia-premier championships and seven runner-ups during 2020-2021. This was only a downturn compared to the ridiculous eleven Liquipedia-premier tournaments he won in 2018-2019, and there was no doubt that he remained one of the top championship contenders.
However, there was definitely a relative decline in Serral's standing, and it was not unreasonable for some to believe that he had been surpassed by some of his peers. In particular, Reynor threw a giant hat in the ring to be called the undisputed best player in the world, stringing together a fantastic, five-championship run of tournaments starting in July of 2020 that culminated in his 2021 IEM World Championship. Also, 2020 saw the young French Terran Clem follow in the steps of Serral and Reynor and realize his potential, and become the first player in years to have a clear one-on-one advantage against Serral. The Clem-Reynor duo kept Serral in check in Europe for most of the pandemic era, preventing him from winning a title in five out of the six WCS Europe tournaments held during that time.
The rest of the foreign players also improved in general, as evidenced by how both ShoWTimE and Lambo dealt Serral BO5 losses in major tournaments of the period. Also, players who had performance issues in offline settings were able to play at 100% of their abilities in online events, and we saw players like ByuN, Cure, and Trap all get the better of Serral in tournament playoffs. The nadir for Serral came in the first half of 2021, where he went on his worst tournament stretch since 2017 with a RO12 finish in IEM Katowice (2-3 vs Clem), RO6 in DH Europe Summer (2-3 vs Lambo), RO8 at NeXT Season 1 (1-3 vs Trap), and RO6 in TeamLiquid Starleague 7 (1-4 vs Cure).
However, this mild 'slump' would not last for long, and Serral began his ramp-up toward his second world championship starting in the second half of 2021. He won three championships in a short period (DHM Fall, DHM Europe Winter, and NeXT Season 2), and took a trio of runner-up finishes on top of that. While Serral's final tournament before the 2022 IEM World Championship—DHM Last Chance—ended inauspiciously with a group stage exit, he made that setback look completely irrelevant in Katowice.
IEM Katowice 2022 heralded the return to offline play, and fittingly, the offline tournament king of 2018-2019 won the very first tournament where pro-StarCraft II was back in its 'natural' setting. Serral advanced from his RO24 group with a flawless 10-0 record in games, and he continued to run rampant in the playoffs by knocking out Maru 3-1 in the RO8. Rogue seemed like he would be a very dangerous RO4 opponent on paper, as Serral had shown considerable vulnerability in ZvZ during online play—including back-to-back BO7 defeats against Rogue himself in TeamLiquid Starleague 8. However, he had absolutely no problems with Rogue in this offline rematch, taking him out 3-0 in a callback performance from BlizzCon 2018.
That brought Serral face to face with perennial rival Reynor in the finals, with the two Zergs having been nearly dead even against each other during the pandemic era. In a finals worthy of two of the greatest players of the period, the Zerg duo battled all the way to a climactic game seven where Serral prevailed in a late-game brawl to achieve the BlizzCon-IEM World Championship double.
It would probably have been more accurate to give Serral a human skull, but one can imagine the problems with trying to get that through customs.
While Serral had won the IEM World Championship, the resumption of offline play didn't mean a return to total domination—at least not immediately. The remainder of 2022 saw Serral be the top dog in a scene with ever-increasing depth, with his peers building on their gains from the pandemic. Serral added on two more championships at HomeStory Cup 21 and TSL9, but also found himself getting booted from other tournaments at the unlikely hands of Zoun, Bunny, and HeroMarine. Indeed, the next world championship at IEM Katowice 2023 served as perhaps the greatest demonstration of growing parity in SC2, as the ESL Pro Tour's #21 ranked player Oliveira went on the underdog run of a lifetime to clinch the championship. As for Serral, he was swept aside by the other upstart performer of the tournament, losing 2-3 to RagnaroK (aka SHIN) in the RO8.
This years-long trend of the rest of the pro scene gaining ground on Serral made his return to hyper-dominance during the 2023/24 EPT season that much more unexpected and impressive. From May of 2023 to February of 2024, Serral won an incredible six out of eight Liquipedia-premier tournaments he participated in, with the final championship in that sequence coming at IEM Katowice 2024. While the tournament technically had its "world championship" moniker removed, it was still world championship caliber in everything but name when considering the strength of roster and prize money involved. In what was arguably the most competitive environment Serral had played in, he achieved one of his best ever tournament results, going 8-0 in matches and 20-1 in maps on his way to a third world championship.
Unlike the previous players on this list, Serral's story is still ongoing. While much hinges on the future of StarCraft II, if Serral continues to play at this level, then #1 could very well be within his grasp.
Why, yes, this is just a dump of funny photos from HomeStory Cup.
The Tools: The Perfect Reactionary Zerg
Though their peaks were separated by nearly a decade, 2018 Serral was the true successor to 2011 NesTea's legacy as an invincible, read-and-react Zerg. He was also reminiscent of 2014 Rain, whose defense-first, macro playstyle did not suffer one bit from its predictability.
All three players focused on gathering as much scouting information as possible and responding to their opponents’ actions with ruthless efficiency. Serral also had the benefit of having incredible defensive reaction speed and micro on the rare occasions when he didn't get a handle on what his opponents were doing, making him an incredibly difficult opponent to ever catch off guard. Combined with his exceptional creep spread, it simply never felt like Serral had to take a fight at a disadvantage.
Like Rain did from 2012 to 2015, Serral gradually evolved from being a one-dimensional defensive rock to an extraordinary all-around player. He added deadly all-ins to his arsenal without making any kind of tradeoff in terms of his macro game, and came to resemble many of the all-time greats in both BW and SC2 in terms of how he can use the threat of either macro play or an all-in to set up the other.
All this combines to produce the closest thing to a perfect player as we've ever seen. Leave Serral alone, and he'll snowball his economy out of control. Attack Serral, and he'll execute a perfect defense and snowball the game out of control even more quickly. Try to play a turtle game, and he'll still find a way to lockpick your defense and get Banelings into your mineral lines. And as you're tying yourself into knots trying to solve this dilemma, he'll surprise you with a Roach-timing to take a quick victory.
The Numbers: The Greatest Statistical Player of All Time
Timeline of performances in all-regionᵃ tournaments for notable players January 2017 to March 2024, Liquipedia-premierᵇ tournaments
Click to expand
Online events are noted in italics. a: GSL tournaments that required in-person qualification (Code S and Super Tournament) and fully region-locked WCS/EPT/DreamHack tournaments were excluded. b. Used due its acceptance as a common standard in the community, while understanding that LP "Premier" encompasses a very broad range of tournaments in terms of prize money, size, format, and strength of field.
This article series has centered on Korean Individual Leagues as the key metric of greatness, and naturally, Serral's complete non-participation in such events makes comparing him to the other nine players rather complicated.
One of the main things we can look at is results in tournaments that players from every region had a similar opportunity to compete in. There are a few caveats to go over here: Code S players may not have focused as hard on these events because of Code S (which was more lucrative than the average Liquipedia-premier event until 2023), top Koreans such as Maru and Rogue were more likely to decline the smaller of these events, and European players generally had easier qualification paths given the format of these tournaments.
But, even taking all of that into consideration, Serral is still far and away the most successful player among his peers in these global competitions. If we begin at the very high end with only world championship-caliber events, Serral is tied with Rogue and sOs at three wins. Serral also won seven tournaments that could be considered to be just one tier down, which featured a $10k+ first place prize and had a large number of top players in participation: GSL vs. World 2018 and 2019, four EPT/DreamHack Season Finals (two during the pandemic), and TSL9. Of course, the list of titles balloons out of control when you include the remaining Liquipedia-premier tournaments such as HomeStory Cup and various non-pandemic online events, though these results have to be considered on a case by case basis (within HomeStory Cup alone, the strength of field varies hugely from tournament to tournament). In total, Serral won sixteen of the non-region-locked premier tournaments taken into consideration, which is far higher than TaeJa's mark of eleven or Maru's seven. Also, outside of his tournament wins, Serral finished on the podium at an extremely high rate.
[Note: With regards to online events, I consider them differently depending on whether or not they were held during the COVID-19 pandemic. In a normal setting, it would be correct to place more weight on offline events, as we can clearly see how the pressure of playing offline affects certain players. However, the pandemic era was a special exception where the options were to play online or don’t play at all—even the world championship was played online for a year. Because these were the highest stakes tournaments players could play in at the time, these tournaments should be given equal consideration as similar size offline tournaments held during a normal period.]
Serral's head-to-head record against notable players January 2018 to IEM Katowice 2024
a: Ties from WTL excluded. b: May include best-of-one series from Nation Wars, World Team League, or other non-standard format tournaments.
While Serral's trophy case might be inflated due to his victories in region-locked events, his head-to-head record against top players shows there's nothing exaggerated about how dominant he was in his prime. Serral has a winning record against almost single one of his contemporaries that could be considered a 'top' player, and often the relationship is extremely lop-sided.
The numbers also bear out two-thirds of the curious rock-paper-scissors relationship that many fans have observed, where Serral counters the top Korean players, Reynor and Clem 'counter' Serral (as much as anyone can), and the Korean players fare well against Reynor and Clem in turn. Reynor and Clem both had periods where they were actually even or even winning against Serral, but Serral brought the head-to-head records back in his favor over time.
Notable half-year win-loss records vs Korean playersᵃ From the beginning of StarCraft II until present day
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a: While this chart can't account for the fluctuation of overall competitiveness in the pro SC2 scene, removing non-Korean players helps stabilize it somewhat. b: May include best-of-one series from Proleague, GSTL, Nation Wars, World Team League, and other non-standard format tournaments.
When it comes to best runs in terms of win-rate, Serral put up some of the wildest stats in StarCraft II history. Serral's entire run from 2018 to the present compares favorably to a best hits compilation from the other players on the GOAT list (with a guest appearance from Stats). Granted, the strength of the overall SC2 field has fluctuated over time, and a 70% win-rate in 2014 might mean something entirely different from the same number in 2024. But even with that in mind, it's hard not to be blown away by Serral's raw numbers.
The Placement
In the previous article in this series, it was mentioned that Rogue has one of the best career resumes of all time with three world championship-tier wins and four Code S titles. When comparing that to Serral's own three world championships (again, I count IEM Katowice 2024 regardless of its official title) and potpourri of Liquipedia-premier titles, I can see how fans could land on either side of the argument.
Code S versus "weekenders" is an apples to fruit salad comparison, as international events come in every shape, size, and flavor. But even after accounting for the fact that a number of Serral's trophies came from events that were fully region-locked, had weak player fields, or had some other point going against them, he still had enough high-quality championships left over for me to consider his tournament record to be superior to Rogue's.
But let's say their resumes are at a similar level for a second, or that the difference is marginal. Even then, I'd have to give Serral the decisive win in the tiebreaker due to him being indisputably the more consistently dominant player. He possesses a winning head-to-head record against all the best players of his time, and often the numbers are embarrassingly lopsided in his favor. In terms of just overall win-loss records and win-rates, Serral might be the best player ever, and it's no surprise that many of his peers consider him the GOAT.
Both Rogue and Serral’s careers were astonishing and worthy of serious discussion in the GOAT conversation, and perhaps Rogue could be just as good as Serral for short periods when he had a $100,000+ jackpot in his sights. However, Serral was seemingly at his peak in every single moment, whereas Rogue could be notoriously inconsistent. In the end, Serral's steady dominance and massive trophy haul give him the #2 place on this list.
The Games
Serral vs Maru: 2018 GSL vs the World - Team Competition (August 5, 2018)
All every StarCraft II fan wanted in 2018 was a Grand Finals between Serral and Maru. Both had dominated their respective regions, with Serral taking down every WCS Event while Maru won every season of Code S held that year. And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition.
Even though everyone knew that this was essentially a showmatch, there was something undeniably terrifying about how easily Serral destroyed Maru. Both players decided to play straight-up macro, and Serral proceeded to pick Maru apart. In hindsight, this match was probably more revealing of these two players' true levels than the Korean elitists on the TL.net forums would like to admit, and it serves as a great representation of Serral's TvZ during his 2018 rampage.
Serral vs Stats: 2018 WCS Global Finals - Grand Finals, Game 6 (November 3, 2018)
Stats was the only non-Zerg player that gave Serral even a modicum of trouble during his coronation run in 2018, and it was fitting that they faced off in the finals at the WCS Global Finals. Ahead 3-2, Serral closed out the series in a late game masterclass against the best late-game Protoss in the world. Stats was able to summon a mighty force featuring Tempests, Carriers, Archons, Immortals and High Templars, but Serral's positioning and army control was sensational as he steadily whittled Stats down to the bone. Say what you will about ZvP balance at the time—Serral was one of the few players who could make a match-up look this hopeless.
Serral vs Reynor: 2022 IEM World Championship, Game 7 (February 27, 2022)
Zerg vs Zerg is the closest thing Serral has had to a weakness since 2018, which is largely due to the early/mid-game where he can be caught off guard by aggressive moves. When it comes to late-game ZvZ, however, Serral has looked just as dominant as in the other match-ups.
One of the best demonstrations came in the 2022 IEM World Championship finals, where Serral faced off against his friend and rival Reynor in their most high stakes clash ever. Game seven on Curious Minds ended up going long, and the two Zergs completely flipped the ignominious reputation of the match-up by playing a deep, positional chess match that could rival any TvT. In the end, Serral's constant mindfulness of his win conditions, combined with his superior spellcaster micro, gave him the victory in one of the most thrilling ZvZ games ever played.
Written by: Mizenhauer Editors: CosmicSpiral, Wax Statistics and records: Aligulac.com, Liquipedia, Code S Stats Images and Photos: Blizzard (photography by Carlton Beener and Helena Kristiansson), DreamHack (photography by Helena Kristiansson), and TakeTV.
He's my #1, it was hard to compete with someone who played SC2 since its early days and always remained somewhat relevant. I can understand the rankings.
Incredible player, the perfect Zerg. It’s a joy to be able to watch Serral play, too bad he peaked late in Sc2 life and we couldn’t see him in weak Zerg eras, or in code S
Well deserved spot albeit Rogue has a better career imo
Everytime serral plays maru he washes him up...IEM it didn't even look close except one game, but yeah maru over serral lol ....this list was pretty good until now
While I may disagree with this placement, you can certainly argue that Maru is the greater player due to career longevity over eras, etc, and how do you quantify Maru's all-time success in GSL vs Serral's decision to avoid it completely?
In the end, though, I'd boil it down to this: consider the last two years in World Championship events that they did both compete in--Maru had two perfect opportunities to finally grab that elusive title. One against a massive underdog in his best match-up ever, and then a straight series against his closest rival for all-time status. And he lost them, both, badly in a bO7. Take away considerations of eras, balance, disinterest, whatever--that says it all for me.
In light of that, I'd consider Serral simply the better player, and the best by a margin in SC2 history. Honestly, though, kind of exactly how I thought the last 3 placements would play out, so can't say I'm surprised.
I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it?
Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it.
On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote: Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it.
I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most.
It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format.
On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote: I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it?
You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title.
The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player.
Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements.
I can't believe I read Taeja's name in this post. What a gem of a player. His 11 premier tournament wins is no joke no matter how you look at it.
He was like a Terran version of proto-Serral. Extremely solid mechanics, read-and-react macro style, super elite late game, always makes the right decisions. If only his career wasn't cut short by military services and injuries.
On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote: Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it.
I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most.
It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format.
Oh believe me, I think Serral would have won like at least 5 GSLs by now if he played in Korea. He's recently shown his preparation and map/build choices are superb.
Although you never know, sOs won every international event possible (Katowice, Blizzcon twice, IEM, even a GSL Hot6 Cup and never clutched a a Code S trophy. Rogue did all of the same and it took him a few more years to do so.
But at the end of the day, Serral didn't. You can't compare imaginary results with real ones. You can't ignore Maru winning 9 Starleagues, because Serral didn't play in them. You have to just put their achievements down on paper and decide whose was greater.
As for what stopped Serral, he's had 5 years of being a sponsored pro without covid restrictions, he simply chose to not go there. Reynor, Neeb, Scarlett, SpeCial, Astrea, even lesser players like SortOf played in GSL during histime. Nothing was stopping Serral except his personal preference.
I can understand. I can understand. I can understand (taps foot nervously).
It boils down IMHO to world trophies vs. GSL Code S. Serral wouldn't (and relocating to Korea during Covid... seriously), whereas Maru couldn't (twice). And Serral evidently leads their head to head.
On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote: Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it.
I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most.
It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format.
Oh believe me, I think Serral would have won like at least 5 GSLs by now if he played in Korea. He's recently shown his preparation and map/build choices are superb.
Although you never know, sOs won every international event possible (Katowice, Blizzcon twice, IEM, even a GSL Hot6 Cup and never clutched a a Code S trophy. Rogue did all of the same and it took him a few more years to do so.
But at the end of the day, Serral didn't. You can't compare imaginary results with real ones. You can't ignore Maru winning 9 Starleagues, because Serral didn't play in them. You have to just put their achievements down on paper and decide whose was greater.
Yeah so greatest as in strongest or most accomplished ever ? There's a nuance. Not mutually incompatible to think 'I value Code Ss and Proleagues highly thus Maru is the latter' and 'I'd pick Serral to defend the Earth against invading Aliens in a Bo7 anytime since 2018' simultaneously.
On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote: Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it.
I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most.
It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format.
Oh believe me, I think Serral would have won like at least 5 GSLs by now if he played in Korea. He's recently shown his preparation and map/build choices are superb.
Although you never know, sOs won every international event possible (Katowice, Blizzcon twice, IEM, even a GSL Hot6 Cup and never clutched a a Code S trophy. Rogue did all of the same and it took him a few more years to do so.
But at the end of the day, Serral didn't. You can't compare imaginary results with real ones. You can't ignore Maru winning 9 Starleagues, because Serral didn't play in them. You have to just put their achievements down on paper and decide whose was greater.
Yeah so greatest as in strongest or most accomplished ever ? There's a nuance. Not mutually incompatible to think 'I value Code Ss and Proleagues highly thus Maru is the latter' and 'I'd pick Serral to defend the Earth against invading Aliens in a Bo7 anytime since 2018' simultaneously.
You an even do a 50/50 split of strength and accomplishments.
Serral and Maru are probably 1 and 2 for strength, in that order. But if you take strength within their own races/balance into account then Maru is probably number 1 (even more nuance)
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
"7x GSL Code S titles + 8x other Liquipedia-premier titles" "Recorded three of the most dominant Proleague seasons" "Over ten uninterrupted years as a top-tier player" >Lists notable tournament finishes
"3x World Champion + 22x other Liquipedia-premier titles" "Positive winrate against every top player of his era" "Multiple historically great stretches in terms of raw winrate" >Links to liquipedia page instead of listing notable tournament finishes, because there are simply far too many
lol
There is just no way someone who's been winning GSLs on and off since '18 is placed above someone who's been winning WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS on and off since '18
On March 16 2024 09:38 Fango wrote: Serral's macro game is the closest you'll ever see to perfection. He basically never loses when he isn't caught off guard, and even then, you can never catch him twice with the same strategy. Nowadays, he's even started to gain some Rogue-like levels of preparation and build order choices. Which makes him basically unbeatable.
That being said, this list isn't a current power rank, it's a ranking based on career achievements.
Serral is by far the most dominant player in weekend events, and his winrates are absolutely insane even if the volume is dramatically lower than everyone else's on this list.
The thing that holds him back for being number 1 is that he doesn't have any results in Starleagues, while every other top 20 player does, and never played in the big teamleagues like Proleague or GSTL. Those formats were not only the most competitive SC2 ever was, but also tested a different skillset and players being able to practice a single map or matchup for a week in advanced showed their real peak.
For any other player, such a gap in their competitive history would take them off the list entirely. Taeja didn't even make top 10 despite some historic teamleague wins and average results in Starleagues. But Serral is THAT dominant in international events that you could make the case for him to be number 1 despite it.
I mean, we're parsing the difference between greatest and best, I suppose, since the literal fact is that Serral chose to never compete in GSL. In light of his results, pretty sure he did what he felt was best for him and it worked out pretty well. Exceptional people tend to ignore outside voices more than most.
It amazes me to think that anyone could convince themselves that Serral wouldn't have grabbed some GSL titles with the few dozen opportunities that Maru has had. Hell, Dark has 2 GSLs and he didn't even make this list. Serral has the best win-rate against Koreans (pretty sure best volume win-rate ever) and most tournament wins period, so something tells me he would have done pretty well in any format.
Oh believe me, I think Serral would have won like at least 5 GSLs by now if he played in Korea. He's recently shown his preparation and map/build choices are superb.
Although you never know, sOs won every international event possible (Katowice, Blizzcon twice, IEM, even a GSL Hot6 Cup and never clutched a a Code S trophy. Rogue did all of the same and it took him a few more years to do so.
But at the end of the day, Serral didn't. You can't compare imaginary results with real ones. You can't ignore Maru winning 9 Starleagues, because Serral didn't play in them. You have to just put their achievements down on paper and decide whose was greater.
Yeah so greatest as in strongest or most accomplished ever ? There's a nuance. Not mutually incompatible to think 'I value Code Ss and Proleagues highly thus Maru is the latter' and 'I'd pick Serral to defend the Earth against invading Aliens in a Bo7 anytime since 2018' simultaneously.
You an even do a 50/50 split of strength and accomplishments.
Serral and Maru are probably 1 and 2 for strength, in that order. But if you take strength within their own races/balance into account then Maru is probably number 1 (even more nuance)
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
I think that's a very reasonable position. I'm a winrate guy so I like Serral's all-time record in that regard. It's like 85% vs 75% between the two for the last 6 years. But Maru's 10 years to 6 overcome that if you overweight longevity, which Miz does.
Personally I'm a bit more in the counterfactual, which is that you can't really fault Serral for coming of age in 2018. I also think an underdiscussed factor is he did it all himself from Pornainen, rather than the team house sponsored by the largest Korean conglomerates. No offence to ENCE but the fortitude it takes to emerge all the way to world champion as an individual, rather than in a large structure, is truly the mark of a singular, godlike talent.
I'm not super keen on discussing balance as this will derail the thread in less than 3 seconds
Personally I'm a bit more in the counterfactual, which is that you can't really fault Serral for coming of age in 2018. I also think an underdiscussed factor is he did it all himself from Pornainen, rather than the team house sponsored by the largest Korean conglomerates. No offence to ENCE but the fortitude it takes to emerge all the way to world champion as an individual, rather than in a large structure, is truly the mark of a singular, godlike talent.
I'm not super keen on discussing balance as this will derail the thread in less than 3 seconds
That is indeed one good point you have there. He lives in a rural village of 5000 people, spread in between forests and fields. He practices all alone in his parents house, with no team support whatsoever. Of course he talks and practices with friends, but especially before his championship in 2018, I doubt he had much outside help besides studying from other pro´s games and training mostly by himself. And he beat everyone in the world like 1 year straight with just that. Can anybody even fanthom how incredible is that ? Its like training tennis in your background for 5 years, and then suddenly go to Wimbledon and beat Djokovic at the finals......like wtf man ??
On March 16 2024 07:25 TL.net ESPORTS wrote:
• 3x World Champion and 22x other Liquipedia-premier tournament wins • Positive win rate against every top player of his era • Multiple historically great stretches in terms of raw win rate
There is no single key to Serral's greatness, as he has become possibly the most complete player in the history of the game. Possessing extraordinary mechanics, multitasking, scouting, and decision-making, Serral plays an oppressive read-and-react macro style for which there is almost no counterplay.
Overall, Serral has an extremely strong case to be called the Greatest of All Time, and only places runner-up by a slim margin.
Like really, after those words, which everybody can agree on, how in earth is he not number one in this list, lol ??
Ok, ok, like I said in the other thread, cant be too mad about the result since Maru is an incredible player too and very worthy of the title too.
Harstem was right. KR still Has by far the better overall player pools. Serral is an outlier.
The most underrated part of Serral is how he achieved everything without having a lot of the privileges all top Korean players enjoyed in at least some parts of their career: teamhouses, coaches, high quality practice partners, KR ladder and etc. He somehow just became the most all-around perfect player ever by playing on EU ladder, practicing with Spirit and Oliveira most of the time, and probably meditating in some Finland forest, idk.
Hard to balance best player (Serral) against greatest career (Maru). I look forward to the inevitable wave of 1-post accounts accusing Miz of clickbait, korean elitism, and general shady dealings =/.
I still think Serral is the GOAT, considering how he almost single-handedly changed the narrative of SC2 from Koreans being immortal against foreigners in that fateful 2018 Blizzcon (to be fair, Neeb started that a little bit by being the first foreigner to win a tournament on Korean soil, but it wasn't nearly as momentous as a Blizzcon).
Serral also did that from the EU region, which was so much less competitive at the time. Seriously, I still don't know how he got so good without being immersed in Korean SC2. Nobody who plays in the minor leagues gets better than everyone in the major leagues. This is obviously hyperbole, but it's like learning to become a grandmaster by practicing against easy AI. He single-handedly raised the EU bar and fostered the rise of players like Clem and Reynor who could compete on a world stage since any region with Serral suddenly had to compete at a major league level if they wanted to win anything, even if it was region locked. Serral's win in 2018 defined what we all call the "modern" era of SC2 and then he just kept playing at that level.
I seriously cannot think of another player who changed SC2 and the narrative around it more than Serral, and so even though Maru had the longer and more distinguished career, I still believe Serral is the GOAT.
Anyway, despite my disagreement, thank you Miz for all the work you put in and all the discussion that resulted from it =)
[B] Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player.
You're delusional - he wouldn't be on anyone's GOAT list if he'd retired at the end of 2017. Maru's single claim to fame is his back-to-back-to-back-to-back GSL run. Impressive as all hell, yes, but this statement that he was goated before that is just rewriting history.
On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote: I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it?
You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title.
The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player.
Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements.
Here’s the biggest difference for me. Serral never won GSL. How many did he compete in? 0. I think any reasonable person agrees that if Serral played in GSL over the years he would have won plenty.
How many world championships did Maru compete in? All of them essentially. He never won. Same conditions as Serral. Sure you can put head to head aside (but let’s be honest, in every sport if someone dominates you that much it’s hard to make an argument for the person on the losing end to be GOAT), but I don’t get it. You can make 1-2 logical arguments why Maru is GOAT. You can make many more for Serral. My point was that if you use the same logic as the rest of the list, then you can’t rank Maru first based on that criteria. I get why some people would put Maru #1, but those same people would not have Rain over Dark.
I’m not even going to touch on Pro League since this is SC2. Sure it’s entertaining but no one seriously thinks pro league drove anything in SC2 like it did in SCBW. The level of the play in pro league was akin to GSL for a very short period of time and it was before Serral was anywhere near his peak. Not his fault, and if there was a relevant pro league during his time, Serral would have dominated it.
I’m all for driving discussion and clicks. I get it. But unless you hate logic, you can’t argue this isn’t just clickbait garbage and I don’t think it belongs in any serious discussion.
I don’t think it’s said often enough but it boils down to this. Everything you can say Maru did not accomplish in his career is because of SC2 games he lost. In a booth. Versus whoever he was up against. Everything you can say Serral did not accomplish in his career is because he did not compete in it. He was not scared - he made financial and life decisions that made sense to him. I even think you can argue that what he has accomplished WITHOUT the advantages of living and competing in Korea (I think everyone agrees for esports, the team house and coaching plus level of completion there is on another level) makes him even better. He is an outlier. He changed the scene from an area where he didn’t have the competition to elevate him, yet he still did it himself.
On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote: I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it?
You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title.
The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player.
Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements.
Here’s the biggest difference for me. Serral never won GSL. How many did he compete in? 0. I think any reasonable person agrees that if Serral played in GSL over the years he would have won plenty.
How many world championships did Maru compete in? All of them essentially. He never won. Same conditions as Serral. Sure you can put head to head aside (but let’s be honest, in every sport if someone dominates you that much it’s hard to make an argument for the person on the losing end to be GOAT), but I don’t get it. You can make 1-2 logical arguments why Maru is GOAT. You can make many more for Serral. My point was that if you use the same logic as the rest of the list, then you can’t rank Maru first based on that criteria. I get why some people would put Maru #1, but those same people would not have Rain over Dark.
I’m not even going to touch on Pro League since this is SC2. Sure it’s entertaining but no one seriously thinks pro league drove anything in SC2 like it did in SCBW. The level of the play in pro league was akin to GSL for a very short period of time and it was before Serral was anywhere near his peak. Not his fault, and if there was a relevant pro league during his time, Serral would have dominated it.
I’m all for driving discussion and clicks. I get it. But unless you hate logic, you can’t argue this isn’t just clickbait garbage and I don’t think it belongs in any serious discussion.
I don’t think it’s said often enough but it boils down to this. Everything you can say Maru did not accomplish in his career is because of SC2 games he lost. In a booth. Versus whoever he was up against. Everything you can say Serral did not accomplish in his career is because he did not compete in it. He was not scared - he made financial and life decisions that made sense to him. I even think you can argue that what he has accomplished WITHOUT the advantages of living and competing in Korea (I think everyone agrees for esports, the team house and coaching plus level of completion there is on another level) makes him even better. He is an outlier. He changed the scene from an area where he didn’t have the competition to elevate him, yet he still did it himself.
This is actually a perfect summation for me. If SC2 ended before Katowice last year, I'd have given it to Maru. But one player bombs out in perplexing fashion--comes back and has the 2nd most invincible stretch of his career, plus the most dominant Kato run ever en route to winning his 3rd World Championship. The other player follows losing the single biggest upset in history with an underwhelming season (by his standards), then getting swept 4-0 by his closest rival on this list. That's a fact. Those things happened. Not conjecture about motivations or what-ifs or other excuses. All with legacy implications plus an extra hundred-thousand on the line.
On March 16 2024 15:04 Comedy wrote: from serral's perspective it must be absolutely wild. Like what more does the guy have to do?
From Serral's perspective I would think he doesn't care at all, and the main concern of his is making sure he never ever cries for a photographer again (very successful so far).
Zergs have been overpowered for the last 5 years but I do think Serral is still a better achiever even taking that benefits into consideration. Just because Terran is the strongest race in SC1 it doesn't take Flash's achievement away. I do however hope people who puts Serral as GOAT(just like myself) admits that Serral has benefited from the state of the balance too.
I applauded this result, but in my opinion it is much better putting Serral on no.3 rather no.2. Rogue should be ahead of him, if not for the early two-year retirement.
I knew you were going to do this. What an amazingly biased methodology to fit the result you wanted. It's really a shame, because the articles themselves are really good. Rain in and Dark out was outrageous, but this just proves a complete lack of objectivity.
On March 16 2024 16:51 swarminfestor wrote: I applauded this result, but in my opinion it is much better putting Serral on no.3 rather no.2. Rogue should be ahead of him, if not for the early two-year retirement.
Based on what metric would Rogue be ahead of Serral?
On March 16 2024 09:36 onPHYRE wrote: I completely understand that this list is one man’s opinion. But the fact you started off pretending that is was based on results (somehow justifying Rain over Dark), and then rank Serral behind Maru made me lose quite a bit of respect for someone I’ve respected many years. I rarely post, and I never defend players since I don’t root for any one player over the scene… but wow.
I have as many world titles as Maru has.
Serral has an 88% win rate versus Maru.
Serral has won more world championships, more premier titles, more major titles, has double the prize money, has maintained a higher ELO than Maru for 5 years straight and peaked over 300 points higher.
You can type up whatever justification you want after this, but if you aren’t going to use the same logic throughout a ranking/list, what is the point of making it?
You also have as many GSL and Proleague titles as Serral, and one could make the case those were more competitive events (not saying they were, but you could reasonably do so). It's really hard to compare Maru's success in Starleagues vs Serral's not playing in them. Maru wasn't absent in World Championships the same way, has a great record in them, just never a title.
The list isn't just based on head-to-head. It's about their entire careers. Keep in mind Maru would still have made the top 10 if he retired before Serral was even a full time player.
Serral having the best h2h records is an achievement in his book. Maru having 9 Starleagues and reaching Flash-level Proleague status is an achievement in his book. People claiming that Miz is 'ignoring results' and going against previous logic really shows they haven't read any of the previous articles in the series. The list was mostly done on Starleague and Proleague results, and player-specific achievements.
Here’s the biggest difference for me. Serral never won GSL. How many did he compete in? 0. I think any reasonable person agrees that if Serral played in GSL over the years he would have won plenty.
How many world championships did Maru compete in? All of them essentially. He never won. Same conditions as Serral. Sure you can put head to head aside (but let’s be honest, in every sport if someone dominates you that much it’s hard to make an argument for the person on the losing end to be GOAT), but I don’t get it. You can make 1-2 logical arguments why Maru is GOAT. You can make many more for Serral. My point was that if you use the same logic as the rest of the list, then you can’t rank Maru first based on that criteria. I get why some people would put Maru #1, but those same people would not have Rain over Dark.
I’m not even going to touch on Pro League since this is SC2. Sure it’s entertaining but no one seriously thinks pro league drove anything in SC2 like it did in SCBW. The level of the play in pro league was akin to GSL for a very short period of time and it was before Serral was anywhere near his peak. Not his fault, and if there was a relevant pro league during his time, Serral would have dominated it.
I’m all for driving discussion and clicks. I get it. But unless you hate logic, you can’t argue this isn’t just clickbait garbage and I don’t think it belongs in any serious discussion.
I don’t think it’s said often enough but it boils down to this. Everything you can say Maru did not accomplish in his career is because of SC2 games he lost. In a booth. Versus whoever he was up against. Everything you can say Serral did not accomplish in his career is because he did not compete in it. He was not scared - he made financial and life decisions that made sense to him. I even think you can argue that what he has accomplished WITHOUT the advantages of living and competing in Korea (I think everyone agrees for esports, the team house and coaching plus level of completion there is on another level) makes him even better. He is an outlier. He changed the scene from an area where he didn’t have the competition to elevate him, yet he still did it himself.
This is actually a perfect summation for me. If SC2 ended before Katowice last year, I'd have given it to Maru. But one player bombs out in perplexing fashion--comes back and has the 2nd most invincible stretch of his career, plus the most dominant Kato run ever en route to winning his 3rd World Championship. The other player follows losing the single biggest upset in history with an underwhelming season (by his standards), then getting swept 4-0 by his closest rival on this list. That's a fact. Those things happened. Not conjecture about motivations or what-ifs or other excuses. All with legacy implications plus an extra hundred-thousand on the line.
Aye that’s me personally although I’ve very much enjoyed the list and won’t quibble too much on placement!
Maru’s been around forever and hasn’t put in one singular clutch WC run. Sure he’s had deep placements but often he’s just beating the guys he’s outright better than and frequently come unstuck when it’s a serious rival. Or in Oliveira just fluffed his lines when he’s the on-paper favourite
Pretending your ranking was based on results and then placing a triple world champion behind a player who never won it is strange to say the least But tbh it's not even the worst thing we've seen in these GOAT articles
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Maybe Artosis or Tasteless, but yea it's the overwhelming minority, Dark would also say the GOAT is Dark maybe
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
I have no doubt there will be a split between those two. Maru himself might feel compelled to nominate Serral out of modesty (just because you can talk freely doesn't necessarily mean you go all egotrip gangsta). I'm sure pro players will use many of the exact same points we have in this debate, but the little details and how much they weigh them, etc... will be oh so interesting. I hope someone makes it happen !
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
I have no doubt there will be a split between those two. Maru himself might feel compelled to nominate Serral out of modesty (just because you can talk freely doesn't necessarily mean you go all egotrip gangsta). I'm sure pro players will use many of the exact same points we have in this debate, but the little details and how much they weigh them, etc... will be oh so interesting. I hope someone makes it happen !
If there's a split it's going to be extremely lopsided in Serral's favor, it's crazy people don't see this, it's not foreigner bias that has people saying Serral is better, in betting sites Serral is the favourite for every (I think) tournament since 2018 Blizzcon, when people are voting with their wallets they tend to be a bit more reasonable.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
I have no doubt there will be a split between those two. Maru himself might feel compelled to nominate Serral out of modesty (just because you can talk freely doesn't necessarily mean you go all egotrip gangsta). I'm sure pro players will use many of the exact same points we have in this debate, but the little details and how much they weigh them, etc... will be oh so interesting. I hope someone makes it happen !
If there's a split it's going to be extremely lopsided in Serral's favor, it's crazy people don't see this, it's not foreigner bias that has people saying Serral is better, in betting sites Serral is the favourite for every (I think) tournament since 2018 Blizzcon, when people are voting with their wallets they tend to be a bit more reasonable.
As a maths Ph.D. - or as a large language model, who knows - I don't really need to be explained that 0.85^3=61.4% chance for full-power Serral to win any top8 he enters (and he doesn't exactly drop out in groups now, does he). This is what's called risk-neutral odds, this is arguably overwhelming, and that's very different from saying Maru has had a longer career overall, was there at the time of Proleague, etc.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
I have no doubt there will be a split between those two. Maru himself might feel compelled to nominate Serral out of modesty (just because you can talk freely doesn't necessarily mean you go all egotrip gangsta). I'm sure pro players will use many of the exact same points we have in this debate, but the little details and how much they weigh them, etc... will be oh so interesting. I hope someone makes it happen !
If there's a split it's going to be extremely lopsided in Serral's favor, it's crazy people don't see this, it's not foreigner bias that has people saying Serral is better, in betting sites Serral is the favourite for every (I think) tournament since 2018 Blizzcon, when people are voting with their wallets they tend to be a bit more reasonable.
As a maths Ph.D. - or as a large language model, who knows - I don't really need to be explained that 0.85^3=61.4% chance for full-power Serral to win any top8 he enters (and he doesn't exactly drop out in groups now, does he). This is what's called risk-neutral odds, this is arguably overwhelming, and that's very different from saying Maru has had a longer career overall, was there at the time of Proleague, etc.
I mean can you walk backwards from your math explanation and realize how much better he is than the rest of the scene.
You just made the argument why he's the best and the goat, he has kept this for half the game's age, while not even being born in the country with the most structure for this, can you imagine if Serral got into a team when he was 10?
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
I have no doubt there will be a split between those two. Maru himself might feel compelled to nominate Serral out of modesty (just because you can talk freely doesn't necessarily mean you go all egotrip gangsta). I'm sure pro players will use many of the exact same points we have in this debate, but the little details and how much they weigh them, etc... will be oh so interesting. I hope someone makes it happen !
If there's a split it's going to be extremely lopsided in Serral's favor, it's crazy people don't see this, it's not foreigner bias that has people saying Serral is better, in betting sites Serral is the favourite for every (I think) tournament since 2018 Blizzcon, when people are voting with their wallets they tend to be a bit more reasonable.
As a maths Ph.D. - or as a large language model, who knows - I don't really need to be explained that 0.85^3=61.4% chance for full-power Serral to win any top8 he enters (and he doesn't exactly drop out in groups now, does he). This is what's called risk-neutral odds, this is arguably overwhelming, and that's very different from saying Maru has had a longer career overall, was there at the time of Proleague, etc.
I mean can you walk backwards from your math explanation and realize how much better he is than the rest of the scene.
You just made the argument why he's the best and the goat, he has kept this for half the game's age, while not even being born in the country with the most structure for this, can you imagine if Serral got into a team when he was 10?
(FWIW Serral is my GOAT with Maru my GCOAT - it's cool and not mutually exclusive)
Then he might've reached 90% winrate and - let's face it - SC2 would've been significantly more boring to watch
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
So? Serral has been carrying the foreigners against the entirety of Koreans like no other players. the supposed "Zerg OP" period last few years is nothing compared to Korean's total domination over Starcraft in the two decades before 2018.
You don't want GOAT discussion to detach from quantifiable statistics and achievements and comes down to narratives, because Serral has better historic narratives than anyone.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Exactly, casters/pros have lost their credibility regarding their stance on the Goat debate. He may be now the Goat (either opinion is fine by now) but the fact that casters called Serral the Goat in 2019 proves caster opinion is completely irrelevant on this subject
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion
How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
On March 16 2024 11:22 Nasigil wrote: Harstem was right. KR still Has by far the better overall player pools. Serral is an outlier.
The most underrated part of Serral is how he achieved everything without having a lot of the privileges all top Korean players enjoyed in at least some parts of their career: teamhouses, coaches, high quality practice partners, KR ladder and etc. He somehow just became the most all-around perfect player ever by playing on EU ladder, practicing with Spirit and Oliveira most of the time, and probably meditating in some Finland forest, idk.
That's true but on the other hand he rose to prominence when the scene was already in decline, lots of championship contenders declined/retired, etc. In this regard the circumstances were in his favor
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion
How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
Didn’t do it in HoTS for a start
Maru easily has him beat in Starleagues. Serral has equal WCs, more regular premiers, better stats, better head to head
The only way to put Rogue at number 1 is some wonky rating where Starleagues place him above Serral, WCs place him above Maru and there’s some strange combination of weighting that it edges him above both rather than one or neither
Which is basically nonsense
Top 5 sure but I don’t think he should even be in the conversation for the top spot.
The concept of Serral being goat is laughable. Hey guys I'm a GOAT in an era of 3 teams in NBA!!!! LOOK I WON 10 CHAMPIONSHIPS. Reason why faker/flash are goats is that they competed in a era of extreme competition and rose above all the youngings. SC2 has none of that
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion
How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
Rogue is #1 if we don’t take into account how he rose to prominence after 1) scene got weaker 2) Zerg got far stronger But in terms of pure career results he is #1
Serral vs Stats: 2018 GSL vs. The World - Grand Finals, Game 6 (August 5, 2018) should be among The Games listed. Watch the end of that game and tell me if Tastosis have ever been more hyped about StarCraft than during those moments.
Won more than every third and reached the finals of more than every second premier tournament he played in for the last 6+ years. Is the fav against every player he plays and won 4 out of 5 matches against the "#1". The question is what he was supposed to accomplish to become #1.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion
How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
Rogue is #1 if we don’t take into account how he rose to prominence after 1) scene got weaker 2) Zerg got far stronger But in terms of pure career results he is #1
You would have to completely invalidate the importance of any Premier tournament outside of GSL and WC-tier events for his career results to be better than Serral's.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Exactly, casters/pros have lost their credibility regarding their stance on the Goat debate. He may be now the Goat (either opinion is fine by now) but the fact that casters called Serral the Goat in 2019 proves caster opinion is completely irrelevant on this subject
That's not really true. You could look at serral play in 2018 and 2019 and say he's the greatest that's ever played. You can witness the 'greatest play you've ever seen' without that person necessarily having all the accomplishments and tournaments that go along with that, just by looking at how he plays and seeing that it's better than everyone else. (it was.) but obviously if they said that in 2019 it had merit cause the accomplishment naturally followed over the years.
to be honest it was pretty obvious from watching his stream, the speed with which he plays and executes things, it was a level we had not really seen before. a lot better than peak life, basically anyone we had seen till that point. it was pretty obvious what was happening with serral from 2018 onwards just watching his screen, and this was greatness we were witnessing.
Actually if you look at pure skill when he plays in a vacuum, he underperformed and should have probably won 2 more katowices. (2019 & 2023).
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
1)HeroSandro was talking about Poopi when he talked about balance-whining, not you 2)Serral wasn't just called "the only hope", he literally was the only hope for years. Maru being "the only hope of terran" doesn't even feel like a thing? And even if it was, he only became that because every other top-terran except Clem retired AND Maru-fans needed to clinge to something considering how much Serral outskills Maru. 3)If you really think Maru has "revolutionized the game" like no one else...yeah, sure.
copy & paste from the Maru thread because discussion is scattered between the two threads.
I always thought the fact that Byun has always been advocating for Serral's goat status is valuable evidence. He is a Korean Terran so unlikely bias to non-Korean or Zerg. He has been playing since the first GSL alongside Maru so he definitely knows about the competitiveness of tournaments across era. He has played both Serral, Maru and other top Zergs countless times so he has good knowledge of the skill level of his opponents. He is even a very close friend of Maru!
Yet, he has long been saying that Serral is the goat. I think this fact alone says a lot.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion
How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
why does winning gsl matter so much? he went to korea twice for gsl vs world and won twice, literally 100%. why would he have to live in korea to be the best? he proves it every international event with koreans in it. it's just a freaking korean league, get over it.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments.
Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Exactly, casters/pros have lost their credibility regarding their stance on the Goat debate. He may be now the Goat (either opinion is fine by now) but the fact that casters called Serral the Goat in 2019 proves caster opinion is completely irrelevant on this subject
That's not really true. You could look at serral play in 2018 and 2019 and say he's the greatest that's ever played. You can witness the 'greatest play you've ever seen' without that person necessarily having all the accomplishments and tournaments that go along with that, just by looking at how he plays and seeing that it's better than everyone else. (it was.) but obviously if they said that in 2019 it had merit cause the accomplishment naturally followed over the years.
to be honest it was pretty obvious from watching his stream, the speed with which he plays and executes things, it was a level we had not really seen before. a lot better than peak life, basically anyone we had seen till that point. it was pretty obvious what was happening with serral from 2018 onwards just watching his screen, and this was greatness we were witnessing.
Actually if you look at pure skill when he plays in a vacuum, he underperformed and should have probably won 2 more katowices. (2019 & 2023).
and Maru should have won like 4 Katowice if he didn't choke/underperformed, that's a bad argument
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here.
What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote: [quote] What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
Angry, determined G.I. Serral will be threat to watch. It will be interesting to see how he manage his training regime during the time in the army; situation will be new to him, as he will get de facto commands to represent his country by playing StarCraft 2. Can he keep up his high level of confidence, dominance, and goal oriented approach in a circumstances not familiar from the past of his career.
On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote: [quote]
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
Since you want to play it that way: In all of Marus GSL-victories, he ONCE was the only terran in Top 8 (and that is the GSL Fango pointed out that I acknowledged as noteworthy). One time more he was the only Terran in Top 4. The rest of the time, there were plenty of Terran, including one that was only Terran in the playoffs. Stop trying to make Maru out to be herO. He isn't.
On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
And lastly, as for WESG: No, most elite Terrans didn't miss qualification because of balance, they missed it because of the very limited amounts of slots given out to Korea. Literally just three players from Korea were in the Asia-Pacific qualifier and the race-split was 1/1/1 there (obviously the same three koreans that also qualified for WESG then). The Korea qualification btw was apparently Bo1 Single Elimination for the most part...
But maybe we two have a problem of clarification, because you sometimes mix the claim. You originally talked about "Maru outperformed Terran", as in Maru played better than his race in general, which in the past would usually be a balance-issue. At other times you say "Maru is clearly the best terran"...which means he is just better than any other terran. So just to clarify: I completly agree that Maru is the best terran of all time. While I personally think Innovation has the higher skill-ceiling, any hard fact clearly points to Maru and again, I agree with that. I'm just not buying in the whole "he constantly outperforms balance because poor terrans are so underpowered T_T" thing
On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote: [quote] You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
Since you want to play it that way: In all of Marus GSL-victories, he ONCE was the only terran in Top 8 (and that is the GSL Fango pointed out that I acknowledged as noteworthy). One time more he was the only Terran in Top 4. The rest of the time, there were plenty of Terran, including one that was only Terran in the playoffs. Stop trying to make Maru out to be herO. He isn't.
He definitely is a hero for Terran. There would have been a ton of events with near 0 Terran presence if Maru wasn't there. Can you imagine a GSL with 0 T in the ro16? That's like 25+ hours of broadcasted content with an entire race missing. That's what would have happened if Maru didn't exist. Unlike Serral who has never been the last Zerg standing in a significant tournament. If he wins his main competition is always another Zerg either in the finals or ro4. And when he loses another Zerg makes it further than him or outright wins the event. Zerg fans always have someone to watch. On some days it's Serral but on others it's Rogue/Dark/Reynor or even Solar/soo. For Terrans, it's just Maru.
On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote: [quote] You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
If Maru being #2 in wins during a season when TvP and TvZ were both 45%, doesn't count as outshining his race then I don't know what to say. INno was the next terran at #9, which you could say was also very impressive given the odds. Once again, the claim was "there have always been 4-5 top terrans" at at best you're naming one other....
And has herO has won tournaments without another protoss being top 8? No. herO's performance is astounding, he even has a couple of GSL and Katowices as the only protoss to make top 8, something Maru has also done several times. Although the recent ones are lessened by the fact that Zest, Trap, sOs, Stats etc all went to military.
But let me know when protoss is so underrepresented to the point of 3/32 players in the biggest tournaments.
And Blizzcon is irrelevant here. viOLet and duckdeock made Blizzcons because they played in europe. The only Blizzcon that happened the same season terran was in the dumpster was 2019. And guess what? Maru was the only terran to make top 8.....
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
If Maru being #2 in wins during a season when TvP and TvZ were both 45%, doesn't count as outshining his race then I don't know what to say. INno was the next terran at #9, which you could say was also very impressive given the odds. Once again, the claim was "there have always been 4-5 top terrans" at at best you're naming one other....
And has herO has won tournaments without another protoss being top 8? No. herO's performance is astounding, he even has a couple of GSL and Katowices as the only protoss to make top 8, something Maru has also done several times. Although the recent ones are lessened by the fact that Zest, Trap, sOs, Stats etc all went to military.
But let me know when protoss is so underrepresented to the point of 3/32 players in the biggest tournaments.
And Blizzcon is irrelevant here. viOLet and duckdeock made Blizzcons because they played in europe. The only Blizzcon that happened the same season terran was in the dumpster was 2019. And guess what? Maru was the only terran to make top 8.....
Maru and Innovation have the same map difference, Maru even a worse winrate...that is what I'm trying to explain to you. Maru is 2nd because of the way it is counted "wins > all", which is a weird way of doing it.
And seriously, why are you always on about violet and duckdeok? I'm strictly speaking about BlizzCons that have an explicit KOREAN ranking aka. the ranking for GSL/SSL only. Or in case of 2015 a situation where GSL alone gave more than enough points to qualify. Same year as the Proleague you quoted...with Innovation winning 3-0 over Zest, while Maru loses 0-3 against Rogue. Maru sometimes was the last terran standing - which is a feat of course. But claiming he is "the only hope"...not really
On March 17 2024 09:52 Fango wrote: [quote] Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
If Maru being #2 in wins during a season when TvP and TvZ were both 45%, doesn't count as outshining his race then I don't know what to say. INno was the next terran at #9, which you could say was also very impressive given the odds. Once again, the claim was "there have always been 4-5 top terrans" at at best you're naming one other....
And has herO has won tournaments without another protoss being top 8? No. herO's performance is astounding, he even has a couple of GSL and Katowices as the only protoss to make top 8, something Maru has also done several times. Although the recent ones are lessened by the fact that Zest, Trap, sOs, Stats etc all went to military.
But let me know when protoss is so underrepresented to the point of 3/32 players in the biggest tournaments.
And Blizzcon is irrelevant here. viOLet and duckdeock made Blizzcons because they played in europe. The only Blizzcon that happened the same season terran was in the dumpster was 2019. And guess what? Maru was the only terran to make top 8.....
Maru and Innovation have the same map difference, Maru even a worse winrate...that is what I'm trying to explain to you. Maru is 2nd because of the way it is counted "wins > all", which is a weird way of doing it.
And seriously, why are you always on about violet and duckdeok? I'm strictly speaking about BlizzCons that have an explicit KOREAN ranking aka. the ranking for GSL/SSL only. Or in case of 2015 a situation where GSL alone gave more than enough points to qualify. Same year as the Proleague you quoted...with Innovation winning 3-0 over Zest, while Maru loses 0-3 against Rogue. Maru sometimes was the last terran standing - which is a feat of course. But claiming he is "the only hope"...not really
Dude what? Terran wasn't in the dumpster at Blizzcon 2015. In fact terran mech was considered imba at the time...
I mention viOLet and duckdeok because you mention Blizzcon for some reason. Like it was the end-all of who the best players were. So what if Maru missed a couple blizzcons? Every korean player did because they only have a few spots to WCS KR points. I'm not trying to say Maru was better than INno every season ever. I'm saying there are many cases of him being the best when terran was weak
There are multiple seasons where Maru was the last terran hope. That didn't happen for anyone else on this top 10 list. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here.
Hm, makes me kind of sad... Had that very good feeling of objectivity in the whole journey from #10 to #3. But this last two rankings feel awfully subjective and biased. Serral being #1 over Maru just has way better arguments for me, at least when you clinge to the same logic as in the rest of ranking. To insist, a GSL Championship is per se much more worth than any other championship is imho neither fair nor sensible.
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
Yeah, and people talk about Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 as if it somehow counts against him to get runner-up in that tournament, and use it to point out how Serral is then obviously the GOAT. Serral was eliminated in the quarterfinals of Katowice 2023.
On March 18 2024 04:47 DevilDriver wrote: Looking at the criteria for this list, I think it is impossible for a foreigner to realistically get the #1 spot.
There's a humongous cost opportunity for not living in Korea indeed, AND this is not even taking into consideration all the infra-structure that exists(ed) in Korea.
Serral is the most dominant, the winningest player, with the best winrates, favourite for every tournament for 6 years~.... still not enough.
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
Yeah, and people talk about Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 as if it somehow counts against him to get runner-up in that tournament, and use it to point out how Serral is then obviously the GOAT. Serral was eliminated in the quarterfinals of Katowice 2023.
Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 is a joke because he had the easiest route into a potential world championship (Ragnarock-Solar-Oliveira) but he still found ways to lose the finals to ranked no.20 best player in the world. A truly historic choke job to cap off his long list of disappointing finishes in international offline tournaments.
Serral's elimination in Ro.8 in 2023 was a blunder, every Serral fan will have no problem admit it, because it doesn't matter in the big picture since dude has won World Championship 3 other times, every time by eliminating multiple champion level players on the way. (Dark-Rogue-Stats in 2018, Maru-Rogue-Reynor in 2022, Clem-Dark-Maru in 2024)
If Maru has won a few WC other times then the 2023 result would be brushed off easily. But he didn't.
I don't understand people's arguments of, Maru was one of the last Terrans etc. and Terran is weak therefore Maru is especially impressive etc.
Look at how many Zergs get to the late rounds of big hard tournaments. In GSL, Zergs have been the fewest to qualify, often times just 2-3 Zergs out of 16 players. Only the really good Zergs like Dark Rogue get far.
Serral is not too different at these international weekender events. There's Serral, Reynor, Dark, and more recently Solar. Then there's a big gap below them.
Also, I feel trying to say things like "only 2 Terrans advanced to the Ro8, thus Terran was weak" is quite silly. Or "only 3 Terrans advanced to Ro16". 3 Terran is not significantly different from 5.33 Terrans out of 16. 1-2 Terrans instead of 2.66 Terrans is not a big difference out of 8 players. We are looking at very small sample size, and not every race has equally skilled players.
On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
Since you want to play it that way: In all of Marus GSL-victories, he ONCE was the only terran in Top 8 (and that is the GSL Fango pointed out that I acknowledged as noteworthy). One time more he was the only Terran in Top 4. The rest of the time, there were plenty of Terran, including one that was only Terran in the playoffs. Stop trying to make Maru out to be herO. He isn't.
He definitely is a hero for Terran. There would have been a ton of events with near 0 Terran presence if Maru wasn't there. Can you imagine a GSL with 0 T in the ro16? That's like 25+ hours of broadcasted content with an entire race missing. That's what would have happened if Maru didn't exist. Unlike Serral who has never been the last Zerg standing in a significant tournament. If he wins his main competition is always another Zerg either in the finals or ro4. And when he loses another Zerg makes it further than him or outright wins the event. Zerg fans always have someone to watch. On some days it's Serral but on others it's Rogue/Dark/Reynor or even Solar/soo. For Terrans, it's just Maru.
And even without taking all of this into account, when there were other terrans in the tournament, they didn’t stand a chance from the get go. In 2018 for example, Maru was the only hope for Terran. Once he was eliminated, you knew a Terran wasn’t gonna win BlizzCon. Same in 2019 and basically every other year until 2023
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
Yeah, and people talk about Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 as if it somehow counts against him to get runner-up in that tournament, and use it to point out how Serral is then obviously the GOAT. Serral was eliminated in the quarterfinals of Katowice 2023.
Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 is a joke because he had the easiest route into a potential world championship (Ragnarock-Solar-Oliveira) but he still found ways to lose the finals to ranked no.20 best player in the world. A truly historic choke job to cap off his long list of disappointing finishes in international offline tournaments.
Serral's elimination in Ro.8 in 2023 was a blunder, every Serral fan will have no problem admit it, because it doesn't matter in the big picture since dude has won World Championship 3 other times, every time by eliminating multiple champion level players on the way. (Dark-Rogue-Stats in 2018, Maru-Rogue-Reynor in 2022, Clem-Dark-Maru in 2024)
If Maru has won a few WC other times then the 2023 result would be brushed off easily. But he didn't.
Is it really that hard to understand?
How is RagnaroK an easy route for Maru, but RagnaroK eliminating Serral from that IEM doesn’t count against him? Plus Oliveira was on fire that day, he was the underdog vs every freaking opponent: Reynor, herO and Maru. Similarly, how is Solar an easy opponent?
The fact that Solar loses very often vs Maru doesn’t make him an easy opponent for Maru, it’s just that Maru is a scarily good player so he beat Solar over and over again. But Solar isn’t an easy player per se, thus if Maru didn’t bring his A game he could lose to Solar.
And let’s be honest here, there is no easy route for Terran. There are easy routes for top zergs, since basically the main difficulties in every WC since 2017 have been to avoid / beat the other top zergs.
On March 18 2024 14:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I don't understand people's arguments of, Maru was one of the last Terrans etc. and Terran is weak therefore Maru is especially impressive etc.
Look at how many Zergs get to the late rounds of big hard tournaments. In GSL, Zergs have been the fewest to qualify, often times just 2-3 Zergs out of 16 players. Only the really good Zergs like Dark Rogue get far.
Serral is not too different at these international weekender events. There's Serral, Reynor, Dark, and more recently Solar. Then there's a big gap below them.
Also, I feel trying to say things like "only 2 Terrans advanced to the Ro8, thus Terran was weak" is quite silly. Or "only 3 Terrans advanced to Ro16". 3 Terran is not significantly different from 5.33 Terrans out of 16. 1-2 Terrans instead of 2.66 Terrans is not a big difference out of 8 players. We are looking at very small sample size, and not every race has equally skilled players.
For quite some period it’s really only been the ‘Big 4’, subsequently then 3 when Rogue left. Solar’s stepped up lately too but aside from Rag making the odd run the overall Zerg cohort hasn’t been smashing it for a while.
I feel Zerg’s potency has been a little over-egged in some quarters by virtue of them winning the big World Champ events so often, a slightly lower hit rate in regular weekenders, and a GSL where they’re winning quite a bit less and I don’t think we’ve had atrocious overall representation for a while.
Of course there is the Serral factor with GSL, Reynor to a slightly lesser but notable degree. As you say it’s quite a small sample size so an outlier can really swing it. There is the prep factor and that cool format (although lessened nowadays with the contracted final day), and generally adjusting to Korea and being away from home that means it’s not a lock Serral brings his A-game. And we did see Reynor fumble last time as an example of how tough it is.
But like even latter-day TY, pre military and consistently killing it in GSL, wasn’t laying a glove on Serral. Cure, has a 10% win rate in matches against Serral, and hasn’t beaten him since 2021. And we’re talking Code S champions here, hell Serral even has a great record against Maru.
Nobody else in the scene has not just winning records, but often very lopsided ones against almost everyone relevant, and almost never has a bad day. Add in Reynor who in his final form is basically as good, albeit more rarely, and a Dark who can beat anyone except a locked-in Maru, Zerg doing well in the big events that players value above all else only really makes sense to me.
To not have a strong Zoigy presence in the Ro4 onwards just strikes me as the strange state of affairs, only achievable if the aforementioned eliminate each other early due to the bracket, or 2/3 or 3/3 having a bad tournament.
As to Maru at times carrying Terran, can’t really dispute that although it does raise an interesting point question. Why doesn’t he fully dominate the game when Terran is waxing? It’s the intuitive thing to happen, but instead he basically stays resolutely in the conversation as a championship contender while the fortunes of his fellow ebb and flow.
My initial instinct was that historically his TvT wasn’t as stellar as his other matchups/how it eventually ended up so in periods other Terrans went deeper in strong metas this negatively impacted Maru.
Unfortunately, and checking the numbers (after some pushback and input from Miz) this theory is total bollocks, as we say over here. Does make me curious as to any alternative theories as I must say I’m stumped!
"Cure has a 10% winrate in matches against Serral" Damn. Just damn.
"Why doesn’t he fully dominate the game when Terran is waxing?" Hmm that's an interesting point! He's pretty consistent despite the lows and highs of Terran. Though maybe you could say he did do well when Terran was strong last year (especially due to PvT nerfs including overcharge nerf), by winning 2 out of 3 GSLs.
In regards to TvT, I miss having him and Ty around, i gotta rewatch those GSL finals. I still remember being sad that Ty barely failed to break out that final game, he had a few cyclones and units, but his cyclones didn't target fire the tanks and instead hit marines/scvs... and i think with just slightly better micro he may have held, and then still had AA to push the banshee back. Really intense and awesome finals, i miss those kinds of TvTs before interference matrix and auto turrets became a thing XO
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol
When you put it that way it certainly looks as one of the most glorious of Serral's achievements.
Maybe 7 years are enough for #1 spot, but only if "GOAT" win yet Another Starvation League victory. Otherwise it can hardly do the trick. :p
Serral's military time will be really interesting to see. Can he go against conventional wisdom of career ending military duties, and write yet another page to his narratively unprecedented legacy remains to been seen.
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol
Even the greatest players have nemeses (except Serral these days I guess, but I think Reynor used to have his number) For example, Flash wiped the floor with Taeja several times, but even I wouldn't think about putting Flash anywhere near Taeja in a GOAT list. An even better one is Zest and Impact, which is a surprisingly close rivalry despite a massive gap in achievements (you'd expect a similar record between them as Serral has with Maru). Impact actually has a winning record versus Zest
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol
When you put it that way it certainly looks as one of the most glorious of Serral's achievements.
Maybe 7 years are enough for #1 spot, but only if "GOAT" win yet Another Starvation League victory. Otherwise it can hardly do the trick. :p
Serral's military time will be really interesting to see. Can he go against conventional wisdom of career ending military duties, and write yet another page to his narratively unprecedented legacy remains to been seen.
Military service in Findland is different. He can still practice and will still compete in tournaments when he's in the military. I'm sure people will ignore this difference and proclaim he broke yet another record
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol
Even the greatest players have nemeses (except Serral these days I guess, but I think Reynor used to have his number) For example, Flash wiped the floor with Taeja several times, but even I wouldn't think about putting Flash anywhere near Taeja in a GOAT list. An even better one is Zest and Impact, which is a surprisingly close rivalry despite a massive gap in achievements (you'd expect a similar record between them as Serral has with Maru). Impact actually has a winning record versus Zest
The Zest Impact rivalry was news to me until I read that article on here, a fine read!
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol
When you put it that way it certainly looks as one of the most glorious of Serral's achievements.
Maybe 7 years are enough for #1 spot, but only if "GOAT" win yet Another Starvation League victory. Otherwise it can hardly do the trick. :p
Serral's military time will be really interesting to see. Can he go against conventional wisdom of career ending military duties, and write yet another page to his narratively unprecedented legacy remains to been seen.
Military service in Findland is different. He can still practice and will still compete in tournaments when he's in the military. I'm sure people will ignore this difference and proclaim he broke yet another record
Yes, as a Finn, I know. Contrary to Korean military, The Sports Corps of Finnish Defence Forces make it possible for top athletes to continue their sporting careers during their time in the service. Serral isn't first from esports to go to the sports school, but certainly most successful one ever.
Serral's participation to a tourneys during his military duty is possible because those tournament trips are as commands for the athlete. If I recall correctly a total of 100 days can be assigned to such purposes, allowing relatively free preparation, training, and normal tournament routine. However, during his military Serral doesn't represent solely himself, and it is expected that he (or any other sports school G.I.) will do his best in his sports. It is kind of honor to even get to the unit in the first place, and all of accepted people are top Finnish athletes of their respective sports.
It is really interesting to see does the military service impact Serral's performance levels, as would be expected, but narratively this time will be, as far as I know, the first time SC2 player participate to any tournament under command obliged by his military duties.
The best case scenario here is that Joona will go through his service time without any bigger dents to his SC2 career. If anything this can even make him stronger in those aspects of his personality that are already his biggest strengths: Disciplined and systematic training, ability to concentrate, and confidence.
On March 18 2024 19:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: "Cure has a 10% winrate in matches against Serral" Damn. Just damn.
"Why doesn’t he fully dominate the game when Terran is waxing?" Hmm that's an interesting point! He's pretty consistent despite the lows and highs of Terran. Though maybe you could say he did do well when Terran was strong last year (especially due to PvT nerfs including overcharge nerf), by winning 2 out of 3 GSLs.
In regards to TvT, I miss having him and Ty around, i gotta rewatch those GSL finals. I still remember being sad that Ty barely failed to break out that final game, he had a few cyclones and units, but his cyclones didn't target fire the tanks and instead hit marines/scvs... and i think with just slightly better micro he may have held, and then still had AA to push the banshee back. Really intense and awesome finals, i miss those kinds of TvTs before interference matrix and auto turrets became a thing XO
Yeah I enjoyed their clashes, slightly different styles, and when TvT was even more positional and tactical on the ground versus Raven count being such a crucial factor
There is a very easy metric to determine who is the best performing SC2 player of all time: Earnings.
Tournament success? Factored in, higher places award more money. Competitiveness of tournaments? Factored in, The international, high prize pool tournaments were consistently attended by the top players from all regions. Career longevity? Factored in, career duration directly maps to years with earning opportunities.
The fact that Maru has played SC2 near the top for longer only highlights that Serral is so much more dominant that he didn't need the extra time to catch up and surpass Maru.
I'm curious to see any replicable scoring system that isn't blatantly skewed to favour South Koreans and that results in anyone but Serral being at the top. Be it prize money, win rates, Aligulac rating over time (which is basically a function of win rates), they all point to the same result.
With regard to this list, it's not transparent wrt how players are rated. The intro post mentions what goes into the comparison but no specific weights are given.
On March 19 2024 09:34 dapzar wrote: There is a very easy metric to determine who is the best performing SC2 player of all time: Earnings.
Tournament success? Factored in, higher places award more money. Competitiveness of tournaments? Factored in, The international, high prize pool tournaments were consistently attended by the top players from all regions. Career longevity? Factored in, career duration directly maps to years with earning opportunities.
The fact that Maru has played SC2 near the top for longer only highlights that Serral is so much more dominant that he didn't need the extra time to catch up and surpass Maru.
I'm curious to see any replicable scoring system that isn't blatantly skewed to favour South Koreans and that results in anyone but Serral being at the top. Be it prize money, win rates, Aligulac rating over time (which is basically a function of win rates), they all point to the same result.
With regard to this list, it's not transparent wrt how players are rated. The intro post mentions what goes into the comparison but no specific weights are given.
So we're including tournament earnings but not proleague salaries? Ok then
On March 19 2024 09:34 dapzar wrote: There is a very easy metric to determine who is the best performing SC2 player of all time: Earnings.
Tournament success? Factored in, higher places award more money. Competitiveness of tournaments? Factored in, The international, high prize pool tournaments were consistently attended by the top players from all regions. Career longevity? Factored in, career duration directly maps to years with earning opportunities.
The fact that Maru has played SC2 near the top for longer only highlights that Serral is so much more dominant that he didn't need the extra time to catch up and surpass Maru.
I'm curious to see any replicable scoring system that isn't blatantly skewed to favour South Koreans and that results in anyone but Serral being at the top. Be it prize money, win rates, Aligulac rating over time (which is basically a function of win rates), they all point to the same result.
With regard to this list, it's not transparent wrt how players are rated. The intro post mentions what goes into the comparison but no specific weights are given.
Going by prize money Serral was the 6th best player in 2023. I think that shows how flawed prize money is as a metric
On March 19 2024 10:13 lokol4890 wrote: So we're including tournament earnings but not proleague salaries? Ok then
You meant team salaries in general, right? Surely you mistyped, for a second I thought, you proposed to add a figure that would only apply to players from one region, instead of the obvious generalisation that would apply to every player in the comparison.
I mean, if you know how much each player is paid by their respective organisations, let's hear it. But I think, going with the earnings that are directly linked to performance, would be more sensible to measure the best performing player.
@Charoisaur: That only shows, that you don't get the full picture by not looking at the full timeline. Thankfully, we have figures not only for 2023 but for the complete history of SC2, so that we can also rank players over the entire history of SC2.
Surprised at this selection, but I guess it's because Serral didn't truly blossom until 2017 or so, and Maru's been in the scene (consistently at the top) since 2012.
Even pending Serral's military time, give him another two years of this high-level play, he'll be the No. 1 Greatest of All Time.
On March 19 2024 11:35 tommey.liang wrote: Surprised at this selection, but I guess it's because Serral didn't truly blossom until 2017 or so, and Maru's been in the scene (consistently at the top) since 2012.
Even pending Serral's military time, give him another two years of this high-level play, he'll be the No. 1 Greatest of All Time.
Currently Serral's winning premiers at a rate of 3/year and Maru 2/year, they have 18 and 21 respectively (taking a harsh view that excludes ALL of Serral's region-locked wins, because hey, Koreans) - so indeed ceteris paribus the longevity argument expires in a couple years. If SC2 has two years left, that is.
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol
When you put it that way it certainly looks as one of the most glorious of Serral's achievements.
Maybe 7 years are enough for #1 spot, but only if "GOAT" win yet Another Starvation League victory. Otherwise it can hardly do the trick. :p
Serral's military time will be really interesting to see. Can he go against conventional wisdom of career ending military duties, and write yet another page to his narratively unprecedented legacy remains to been seen.
Military service in Findland is different. He can still practice and will still compete in tournaments when he's in the military. I'm sure people will ignore this difference and proclaim he broke yet another record
Yes, as a Finn, I know. Contrary to Korean military, The Sports Corps of Finnish Defence Forces make it possible for top athletes to continue their sporting careers during their time in the service. Serral isn't first from esports to go to the sports school, but certainly most successful one ever.
Serral's participation to a tourneys during his military duty is possible because those tournament trips are as commands for the athlete. If I recall correctly a total of 100 days can be assigned to such purposes, allowing relatively free preparation, training, and normal tournament routine. However, during his military Serral doesn't represent solely himself, and it is expected that he (or any other sports school G.I.) will do his best in his sports. It is kind of honor to even get to the unit in the first place, and all of accepted people are top Finnish athletes of their respective sports.
It is really interesting to see does the military service impact Serral's performance levels, as would be expected, but narratively this time will be, as far as I know, the first time SC2 player participate to any tournament under command obliged by his military duties.
The best case scenario here is that Joona will go through his service time without any bigger dents to his SC2 career. If anything this can even make him stronger in those aspects of his personality that are already his biggest strengths: Disciplined and systematic training, ability to concentrate, and confidence.
Most likely not gonna happen - but would love to see Admiral Serral playing World Champs wearing his military uniform and a cap. GOAT of attire for sure.
On March 19 2024 11:35 tommey.liang wrote: Surprised at this selection, but I guess it's because Serral didn't truly blossom until 2017 or so, and Maru's been in the scene (consistently at the top) since 2012.
Even pending Serral's military time, give him another two years of this high-level play, he'll be the No. 1 Greatest of All Time.
TL will find any excuse not to put Serral above Maru, 2 years won't change anything. Joke site and unsurprising selection.
I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1 Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition." As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect.
Great article, bad conclusion. Serral is clearly no 1. I think PiG concluded it the best in his late video on twitch. Saying that Maru is better than Serral is pure "maru's fanboys" things to say.
Also Premobeast sums it too. Nothing to add, mic dropped.
On March 22 2024 21:39 hiroshOne wrote: Great article, bad conclusion. Serral is clearly no 1. I think PiG concluded it the best in his late video on twitch. Saying that Maru is better than Serral is pure "maru's fanboys" things to say.
Also Premobeast sums it too. Nothing to add, mic dropped.
To be fair, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the Goat.
I’ll take the opinion of Pig more seriously than say random forum guys
On March 22 2024 21:39 hiroshOne wrote: Great article, bad conclusion. Serral is clearly no 1. I think PiG concluded it the best in his late video on twitch. Saying that Maru is better than Serral is pure "maru's fanboys" things to say.
Also Premobeast sums it too. Nothing to add, mic dropped.
To be fair, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the Goat.
I’ll take the opinion of Pig more seriously than say random forum guys
Don't judge people by their supposed prestige. In debates this would be called a fallacy from authority... someone can tell you valid notions without much credentials. Simply look at the argument, not the person who makes it.
On March 22 2024 21:39 hiroshOne wrote: Great article, bad conclusion. Serral is clearly no 1. I think PiG concluded it the best in his late video on twitch. Saying that Maru is better than Serral is pure "maru's fanboys" things to say.
Also Premobeast sums it too. Nothing to add, mic dropped.
To be fair, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the Goat.
I’ll take the opinion of Pig more seriously than say random forum guys
Don't judge people by their supposed prestige. In debates this would be called a fallacy from authority... someone can tell you valid notions without much credentials. Simply look at the argument, not the person who makes it.
Except Pig arguments are all valid and legit, which the majority of the people agrees with.
I’m looking at the arguments for Maru and it’s really not convincing and lacking.
On March 22 2024 21:39 hiroshOne wrote: Great article, bad conclusion. Serral is clearly no 1. I think PiG concluded it the best in his late video on twitch. Saying that Maru is better than Serral is pure "maru's fanboys" things to say.
Also Premobeast sums it too. Nothing to add, mic dropped.
To be fair, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the Goat.
I’ll take the opinion of Pig more seriously than say random forum guys
Good for you, I take the opinion of Artosis more seriously
If I were to do a GOAT list I would go solely by career, but having lived through the Serral era, I can also see why people would just take the dominance that we've seen and call him GOAT by sheer force. I truly think when we look back at SC2 from SC3, WC4, or whichever game we would be playing at the time, Serral's name would be the first to jump to mind when thinking of SC2. I have never in all my time of watching cyber games seen anything like it. When ppl say that casters jumped too fast on the Serral bandwagon, in a way I think they were right, and it's just hard to appreciate what is happening, since we're still living the moment. If we're being real, we now see, how much time it takes for pros to reach the level that we're at. And how long it took for an absolute talent like PartinG to reach the level of the best, was a good example of that. The kespa switch was the biggest influx of talent, and it shows that it's not the number of players, but the quality of people that matters. HotS was substantially more competitive and was played at a higher level than WoL, even though the number of overall players might've been around the same. And for these kespa players to really reach their peak potential it would need 3-4 years at least. So we're talking 2015-2016 for the peak level, it was somewhat reset by all the changes that came with LotV and the immediate patches that came thereafter, but we saw ByuN, Rogue, Maru and Serral all take the bar to the next level. I agree that the scene started to stagnate and worsen over time, but if we have an opposite graph of level of play increasing, then it can be reasonable to say that the height of play was reached in 2018 at Blizzcon. I would argue Serral is still playing at this level, but most other pros level have decreased since then and so 2018 should be seen as peak SC2. Also if we're all agreeing that the top 3 GOATs are Rogue, Maru and Serral, then it seems to me that the most important period to prove your worth would be the time that these all played, from 2017 and forward.
Life was greater than MVP, and Serral was greater than Maru, or at least this is my belief without having crunched the numbers.
On March 25 2024 01:00 ejozl wrote: If I were to do a GOAT list I would go solely by career, but having lived through the Serral era, I can also see why people would just take the dominance that we've seen and call him GOAT by sheer force. I truly think when we look back at SC2 from SC3, WC4, or whichever game we would be playing at the time, Serral's name would be the first to jump to mind when thinking of SC2. I have never in all my time of watching cyber games seen anything like it. When ppl say that casters jumped too fast on the Serral bandwagon, in a way I think they were right, and it's just hard to appreciate what is happening, since we're still living the moment. If we're being real, we now see, how much time it takes for pros to reach the level that we're at. And how long it took for an absolute talent like PartinG to reach the level of the best, was a good example of that. The kespa switch was the biggest influx of talent, and it shows that it's not the number of players, but the quality of people that matters. HotS was substantially more competitive and was played at a higher level than WoL, even though the number of overall players might've been around the same. And for these kespa players to really reach their peak potential it would need 3-4 years at least. So we're talking 2015-2016 for the peak level, it was somewhat reset by all the changes that came with LotV and the immediate patches that came thereafter, but we saw ByuN, Rogue, Maru and Serral all take the bar to the next level. I agree that the scene started to stagnate and worsen over time, but if we have an opposite graph of level of play increasing, then it can be reasonable to say that the height of play was reached in 2018 at Blizzcon. I would argue Serral is still playing at this level, but most other pros level have decreased since then and so 2018 should be seen as peak SC2. Also if we're all agreeing that the top 3 GOATs are Rogue, Maru and Serral, then it seems to me that the most important period to prove your worth would be the time that these all played, from 2017 and forward.
Life was greater than MVP, and Serral was greater than Maru, or at least this is my belief without having crunched the numbers.
I mean, PartinG became one of the best tosses in the world in 1.5 years within game's release. But yes, it is no accident that top 3 all blossomed in full in 2017-2018 period.
On March 25 2024 01:00 ejozl wrote: If I were to do a GOAT list I would go solely by career, but having lived through the Serral era, I can also see why people would just take the dominance that we've seen and call him GOAT by sheer force. I truly think when we look back at SC2 from SC3, WC4, or whichever game we would be playing at the time, Serral's name would be the first to jump to mind when thinking of SC2. I have never in all my time of watching cyber games seen anything like it. When ppl say that casters jumped too fast on the Serral bandwagon, in a way I think they were right, and it's just hard to appreciate what is happening, since we're still living the moment. If we're being real, we now see, how much time it takes for pros to reach the level that we're at. And how long it took for an absolute talent like PartinG to reach the level of the best, was a good example of that. The kespa switch was the biggest influx of talent, and it shows that it's not the number of players, but the quality of people that matters. HotS was substantially more competitive and was played at a higher level than WoL, even though the number of overall players might've been around the same. And for these kespa players to really reach their peak potential it would need 3-4 years at least. So we're talking 2015-2016 for the peak level, it was somewhat reset by all the changes that came with LotV and the immediate patches that came thereafter, but we saw ByuN, Rogue, Maru and Serral all take the bar to the next level. I agree that the scene started to stagnate and worsen over time, but if we have an opposite graph of level of play increasing, then it can be reasonable to say that the height of play was reached in 2018 at Blizzcon. I would argue Serral is still playing at this level, but most other pros level have decreased since then and so 2018 should be seen as peak SC2. Also if we're all agreeing that the top 3 GOATs are Rogue, Maru and Serral, then it seems to me that the most important period to prove your worth would be the time that these all played, from 2017 and forward.
Life was greater than MVP, and Serral was greater than Maru, or at least this is my belief without having crunched the numbers.
I mean, PartinG became one of the best tosses in the world in 1.5 years within game's release. But yes, it is no accident that top 3 all blossomed in full in 2017-2018 period.
I meant Parting's return to the scene, when Rogue, Serral, Maru and TY were all on the top.
On March 25 2024 01:00 ejozl wrote: If I were to do a GOAT list I would go solely by career, but having lived through the Serral era, I can also see why people would just take the dominance that we've seen and call him GOAT by sheer force. I truly think when we look back at SC2 from SC3, WC4, or whichever game we would be playing at the time, Serral's name would be the first to jump to mind when thinking of SC2. I have never in all my time of watching cyber games seen anything like it. When ppl say that casters jumped too fast on the Serral bandwagon, in a way I think they were right, and it's just hard to appreciate what is happening, since we're still living the moment. If we're being real, we now see, how much time it takes for pros to reach the level that we're at. And how long it took for an absolute talent like PartinG to reach the level of the best, was a good example of that. The kespa switch was the biggest influx of talent, and it shows that it's not the number of players, but the quality of people that matters. HotS was substantially more competitive and was played at a higher level than WoL, even though the number of overall players might've been around the same. And for these kespa players to really reach their peak potential it would need 3-4 years at least. So we're talking 2015-2016 for the peak level, it was somewhat reset by all the changes that came with LotV and the immediate patches that came thereafter, but we saw ByuN, Rogue, Maru and Serral all take the bar to the next level. I agree that the scene started to stagnate and worsen over time, but if we have an opposite graph of level of play increasing, then it can be reasonable to say that the height of play was reached in 2018 at Blizzcon. I would argue Serral is still playing at this level, but most other pros level have decreased since then and so 2018 should be seen as peak SC2. Also if we're all agreeing that the top 3 GOATs are Rogue, Maru and Serral, then it seems to me that the most important period to prove your worth would be the time that these all played, from 2017 and forward.
Life was greater than MVP, and Serral was greater than Maru, or at least this is my belief without having crunched the numbers.
I mean, PartinG became one of the best tosses in the world in 1.5 years within game's release. But yes, it is no accident that top 3 all blossomed in full in 2017-2018 period.
yeah because it became easier to dominate the scene due to the decreased competition. During Kespa era this wouldn't be possible
On March 25 2024 01:00 ejozl wrote: If I were to do a GOAT list I would go solely by career, but having lived through the Serral era, I can also see why people would just take the dominance that we've seen and call him GOAT by sheer force. I truly think when we look back at SC2 from SC3, WC4, or whichever game we would be playing at the time, Serral's name would be the first to jump to mind when thinking of SC2. I have never in all my time of watching cyber games seen anything like it. When ppl say that casters jumped too fast on the Serral bandwagon, in a way I think they were right, and it's just hard to appreciate what is happening, since we're still living the moment. If we're being real, we now see, how much time it takes for pros to reach the level that we're at. And how long it took for an absolute talent like PartinG to reach the level of the best, was a good example of that. The kespa switch was the biggest influx of talent, and it shows that it's not the number of players, but the quality of people that matters. HotS was substantially more competitive and was played at a higher level than WoL, even though the number of overall players might've been around the same. And for these kespa players to really reach their peak potential it would need 3-4 years at least. So we're talking 2015-2016 for the peak level, it was somewhat reset by all the changes that came with LotV and the immediate patches that came thereafter, but we saw ByuN, Rogue, Maru and Serral all take the bar to the next level. I agree that the scene started to stagnate and worsen over time, but if we have an opposite graph of level of play increasing, then it can be reasonable to say that the height of play was reached in 2018 at Blizzcon. I would argue Serral is still playing at this level, but most other pros level have decreased since then and so 2018 should be seen as peak SC2. Also if we're all agreeing that the top 3 GOATs are Rogue, Maru and Serral, then it seems to me that the most important period to prove your worth would be the time that these all played, from 2017 and forward.
Life was greater than MVP, and Serral was greater than Maru, or at least this is my belief without having crunched the numbers.
I mean, PartinG became one of the best tosses in the world in 1.5 years within game's release. But yes, it is no accident that top 3 all blossomed in full in 2017-2018 period.
yeah because it became easier to dominate the scene due to the decreased competition. During Kespa era this wouldn't be possible
It's also easier to have this feeling of dominance when you remove Dreamhacks, IEM tournaments that aren't Katowice, KeSPA Cups, etc. All the tournaments that happened during / in between seasons Not to diminish the achievements of the players today, but it's "easier" (emphasis on the quotes there) to win every tournament when you go from 20 premiers to 10 (numbers entirely pulled out of my ass).
On March 21 2024 01:08 PremoBeats wrote: I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1 Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition." As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect.
Impressive analysis (seriously). And very much reads as something written by someone has has not been following Starcraft very long. I don’t mean that as a dig, it’s just that your analysis treats all eras of SC2 competition as equal. The simple fact is that Serral has not won in the most competitive tournaments and leagues, where hundreds of pro players were competing and even top pros struggled to make it out of the qualifiers and into the group stages. This is not Serral’s fault, and I very much believe if he had competed in that era, he would have been incredibly competitive, probably picked up a few titles along the way. But he didn’t, and alternative hypothetical histories are not so persuasive in these matters. I still think it’s totally legit to call him the GOAT, FWIW, because you can argue that his level of dominance and skill is so high as to compensate for the fact that all his victories came in a less competitive (but still quite competitive) era of SC2. But there is a reason guys like Rain and MVP made it into this top 10 list without having won a “world championship”, while guys like Dark and Reynor who have did not. You can surely disagree with the criteria, but based on the criteria, the picks make sense.
On March 25 2024 01:00 ejozl wrote: If I were to do a GOAT list I would go solely by career, but having lived through the Serral era, I can also see why people would just take the dominance that we've seen and call him GOAT by sheer force. I truly think when we look back at SC2 from SC3, WC4, or whichever game we would be playing at the time, Serral's name would be the first to jump to mind when thinking of SC2. I have never in all my time of watching cyber games seen anything like it. When ppl say that casters jumped too fast on the Serral bandwagon, in a way I think they were right, and it's just hard to appreciate what is happening, since we're still living the moment. If we're being real, we now see, how much time it takes for pros to reach the level that we're at. And how long it took for an absolute talent like PartinG to reach the level of the best, was a good example of that. The kespa switch was the biggest influx of talent, and it shows that it's not the number of players, but the quality of people that matters. HotS was substantially more competitive and was played at a higher level than WoL, even though the number of overall players might've been around the same. And for these kespa players to really reach their peak potential it would need 3-4 years at least. So we're talking 2015-2016 for the peak level, it was somewhat reset by all the changes that came with LotV and the immediate patches that came thereafter, but we saw ByuN, Rogue, Maru and Serral all take the bar to the next level. I agree that the scene started to stagnate and worsen over time, but if we have an opposite graph of level of play increasing, then it can be reasonable to say that the height of play was reached in 2018 at Blizzcon. I would argue Serral is still playing at this level, but most other pros level have decreased since then and so 2018 should be seen as peak SC2. Also if we're all agreeing that the top 3 GOATs are Rogue, Maru and Serral, then it seems to me that the most important period to prove your worth would be the time that these all played, from 2017 and forward.
Life was greater than MVP, and Serral was greater than Maru, or at least this is my belief without having crunched the numbers.
I mean, PartinG became one of the best tosses in the world in 1.5 years within game's release. But yes, it is no accident that top 3 all blossomed in full in 2017-2018 period.
yeah because it became easier to dominate the scene due to the decreased competition. During Kespa era this wouldn't be possible
I don't agree, if a new scene emerged now, given enough time 1 player would rise to the top. HotS was different because the game was more strategic, it was less figured out, it spanned for such a short duration. With no new patches and with how mechanical the game is now, 1 player would surely rise to the top, mb it wouldn't be possible for a 6 year period, but yeah.
On March 21 2024 01:08 PremoBeats wrote: I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1 Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition." As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect.
Impressive analysis (seriously). And very much reads as something written by someone has has not been following Starcraft very long. I don’t mean that as a dig, it’s just that your analysis treats all eras of SC2 competition as equal. The simple fact is that Serral has not won in the most competitive tournaments and leagues, where hundreds of pro players were competing and even top pros struggled to make it out of the qualifiers and into the group stages. This is not Serral’s fault, and I very much believe if he had competed in that era, he would have been incredibly competitive, probably picked up a few titles along the way. But he didn’t, and alternative hypothetical histories are not so persuasive in these matters. I still think it’s totally legit to call him the GOAT, FWIW, because you can argue that his level of dominance and skill is so high as to compensate for the fact that all his victories came in a less competitive (but still quite competitive) era of SC2. But there is a reason guys like Rain and MVP made it into this top 10 list without having won a “world championship”, while guys like Dark and Reynor who have did not. You can surely disagree with the criteria, but based on the criteria, the picks make sense.
Hmm, yes, the thing you bring up is very true. But if we truly assume that the competition in which Serral had his results is not as fierce, you neither can put Maru at #1, as he only has 2 Premier Tournaments wins before Serral became dominant. They mostly played in the same time period and Maru never won a World Championship in this supposedly "easier" era.
This goes along some other inconsistencies in this ranking, for example longevity versus peak dominance. In MVP's article the author put him over Inno because MVP was more dominant during his prime (only one or max two years), and he values it over Inno's much longer and successful career. In Maru's article, he says that Maru is not as dominant as Serral but writes about his "otherworldly longevity".
If you value peak over longevity, then Serral should definitely be above Maru. If you value longevity over peak, then there's no way MVP is above Innovation.
Thus, my critique is not the criteria, but rather the consistency of applying the criteria. In making such a list, you have to be consistent. If Serral is devalued because of his successes in a much easier era, then Maru can't be GOAT either, as Serral was much more succesful in the same period.
On March 21 2024 01:08 PremoBeats wrote: I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1 Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition." As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect.
Impressive analysis (seriously). And very much reads as something written by someone has has not been following Starcraft very long. I don’t mean that as a dig, it’s just that your analysis treats all eras of SC2 competition as equal. The simple fact is that Serral has not won in the most competitive tournaments and leagues, where hundreds of pro players were competing and even top pros struggled to make it out of the qualifiers and into the group stages. This is not Serral’s fault, and I very much believe if he had competed in that era, he would have been incredibly competitive, probably picked up a few titles along the way. But he didn’t, and alternative hypothetical histories are not so persuasive in these matters. I still think it’s totally legit to call him the GOAT, FWIW, because you can argue that his level of dominance and skill is so high as to compensate for the fact that all his victories came in a less competitive (but still quite competitive) era of SC2. But there is a reason guys like Rain and MVP made it into this top 10 list without having won a “world championship”, while guys like Dark and Reynor who have did not. You can surely disagree with the criteria, but based on the criteria, the picks make sense.
Hmm, yes, the thing you bring up is very true. But if we truly assume that the competition in which Serral had his results is not as fierce, you neither can put Maru at #1, as he only has 2 Premier Tournaments wins before Serral became dominant. They mostly played in the same time period and Maru never won a World Championship in this supposedly "easier" era.
This goes along some other inconsistencies in this ranking, for example longevity versus peak dominance. In MVP's article the author put him over Inno because MVP was more dominant during his prime (only one or max two years), and he values it over Inno's much longer and successful career. In Maru's article, he says that Maru is not as dominant as Serral but writes about his "otherworldly longevity".
If you value peak over longevity, then Serral should definitely be above Maru. If you value longevity over peak, then there's no way MVP is above Innovation.
Thus, my critique is not the criteria, but rather the consistency of applying the criteria. In making such a list, you have to be consistent. If Serral is devalued because of his successes in a much easier era, then Maru can't be GOAT either, as Serral was much more succesful in the same period.
If you want my in depth thoughts on this, read the following
Tipping points:
It’s worth quoting the INnoVation and Rogue articles and how both players were ranked relative to Mvp. INnoVation and Rogue had far longer careers than Mvp, but they represented an inflection point between long term success and excellence over a shorter period of time. This was a key point when comparing players to one another as all careers are different and came up in multiple situations (though INnoVation, Mvp and Rogue are the best examples as they ended up one after another after another in my rankings). As a general rule, I believe it’s just as important to address the shortcomings of a player's career as it is to give them credit for their achievements.
From Mvp article:
On this list, Mvp comes in one spot above #5 INnoVation largely due to the fact that the Machine didn't overshadow his contemporaries quite as severely. While I've asserted that INnoVation was the best player from 2013 to 2017, the articles for Zest, sOs, and Rain show that there were periods where they could have thrown their hats in the ring alongside him. Mvp is the first, and maybe only player on this list who ruled his era without any realistic challengers. His closest period rival was teammate Nestea who did equal him with three Code S titles, but fell behind severely in nearly all other criteria (non-Code S tournaments, peak win-rates, championship contention after 2011). So tight was Mvp's grip over early-WoL era competition that this writer finds it very tempting to deem Mvp the most dominant player to ever play StarCraft II.
From Rogue article:
Why Mvp got the nod over INnoVation for fourth place on this list largely came down to a single question—do the aggregate achievements from a long career outweigh short-term brilliance that defined an era? In the case of INnoVation, the answer was no. But when we ask the same question of Rogue, the balance comes out in the favor of extraordinary career accomplishments.
Rogue never dominated any era the way Mvp ruled over Wings of Liberty, but the fact is, no player ever did. However, from 2017-2022, Rogue won so many events that even the King of Wings would feel envious. In that time, Rogue won a combined seven Korean Individual Leagues (all Code S) and World Championship titles, which is a mark only surpassed by Maru. Rogue won the bulk of these trophies in a highly competitive period that saw players like Maru, Serral, TY, and Reynor enter their primes, while old-guard players like Zest, soO, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, and Stats proved they still had plenty of fight left in them. Only Rogue's final Code S title was won in a period where the Korean scene had entered noticeable contraction (in fact, one might even consider Rogue's retirement the demarcation line).
Though it never got into the articles, the phrase Longevity is a double edged sword,” was very important during my evaluation process. Players could be rewarded for having a long career, but they could also be devalued due to lengthy fallow periods (sOs is a solid example of this. He won more World Championships than soO, INnoVatioN and Zest, while also making the finals of Code S twice, but his lack of notable results after 2018 mitigated his early career success to a degree). Short term success (I tried to look for 3 year peaks at a minimum when available and, if possible, extended five year peaks as a general rule throughout the articles) almost always came with a higher than usual superiority over the player’s peers. At the same time, that has to be balanced against the fact that they often earned less accolades because of the nature of their career. It’s important to note that there is no such thing as an objectively best career. Every players’ resume is filled with highs and lows no matter the amount of time for which they played. Just as every career has cumulative accolades that need to be measured relative to the amount of time that player played.
Mvp’s greatness over a comparatively short amount of time exceeded INnoVation’s cumulative achievements, but Rogue’s 4 Code S wins and 3 World Championships placed him ahead of Mvp. I tried to strike a balance between these two factors (short term vs long term), which resulted in players getting rewarded/punished for different elements of their career. INnoVation and Rogue aptly display this methodology as both were rewarded for their many titles, but also suffered due their inconsistency and years in which they failed to post positive results or were shockingly eliminated from tournaments by “lesser” players in the early stages.
For those who don't care to read, the TLDR is that the placement sections in Inno/Mvp/Rogue talk about why INnoVation's career wasn't enough to put him past Mvp in my eyes, but Rogue's was (aka 4 KIL/1 WC for Inno vs 4 KIL/3 WC for Rogue compared to Mvp's 5 KIL finals with 3 wins while also outperforming his peers to a greater degree than Rogue and Inno when it comes to deep tournament runs and win percentage over a 2 year stretch).
With that being said, there are no absolutes in a process such as this like "peak is better than longevity" or "longer career is better than shorter career". If you say there are then you're being obtuse. The truth is, you have to apply this line of thinking on a case case to case basis and balance the pros and cons.
This is why this exercise is so much more difficult than people make it out to be. It's not about head to head. It's not about cumulative results. It's not about 3 year peaks or 5 year peaks. It's not about how good someone in a team league or if they were region locked out of events. It's about taking all of these things (which often aren't consistent from one era to another (such as mvp and serral, whose careers never overlapped)) and doing ones best to evaluate where a player belongs relative to one another.
If someone tells you there are no doubts in their minds that someone HAS to be ranked HERE or THERE, that person simply has not put enough thought into their analysis.
On March 21 2024 01:08 PremoBeats wrote: I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other). - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant. - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023) - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons. Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all. All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits. Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe. Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1 Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition." As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect.
Impressive analysis (seriously). And very much reads as something written by someone has has not been following Starcraft very long. I don’t mean that as a dig, it’s just that your analysis treats all eras of SC2 competition as equal. The simple fact is that Serral has not won in the most competitive tournaments and leagues, where hundreds of pro players were competing and even top pros struggled to make it out of the qualifiers and into the group stages. This is not Serral’s fault, and I very much believe if he had competed in that era, he would have been incredibly competitive, probably picked up a few titles along the way. But he didn’t, and alternative hypothetical histories are not so persuasive in these matters. I still think it’s totally legit to call him the GOAT, FWIW, because you can argue that his level of dominance and skill is so high as to compensate for the fact that all his victories came in a less competitive (but still quite competitive) era of SC2. But there is a reason guys like Rain and MVP made it into this top 10 list without having won a “world championship”, while guys like Dark and Reynor who have did not. You can surely disagree with the criteria, but based on the criteria, the picks make sense.
If Serral is devalued because of his successes in a much easier era, then Maru can't be GOAT either, as Serral was much more succesful in the same period.
I disagree. The scene getting less competitive was a process that didn't happen over night, it was a gradual process. And in 2018 when Maru achieved his 4-peat that put him in the Goat conversation, I think the scene was still very competitive with Maru, Inno, Rogue, Dark, Zest, Stats, Trap, sOs, Dear, TY, Cure, ByuN, herO, Classic, soO all still being active and pre-military. Serral on the other hand absolutely needs his results in the way weaker 2022-2024 era to be valued highly to be a serious Goat contender
If the GoAT is the strongest player to ever touch this game, there is no doubt that serral is it.
There were people saying Taeja was the goat for the year he had in 2014. Serral had a better one, every single year, since 2018.
Until 2022 I still thought Maru was the goat, but Serral remained the strongest player in the scene, for what is now the 6th year in a row. An insane achievement that has no equals.
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote: Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
There was such a poll on Twitter and INno was ahead of Rogue.
I love INno, big big fan, imo the #2 GOAT in an hypothetical balanced game, but as things stand out he can’t be put above Rogue. Shows how useless and biased such a poll is. No wonder it’s one of the foreign biased YouTubers that put up this poll on Twitter, seems like their ego got hurt by Serral being put #2 in tl.net list despite them not being Joona Sotala (or even from his family)
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote: Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
Because it will result in a landslide win for Serral Then people will argue saying popularity does not equal goat which will be the excuse Maru fans will use.
Fact is the majority fans / pros / casters all have Serral as the cemented Goat
Miz article is just for a fun read that describe why Maru should be goat even though that opinion is in the minority
Serral fans shouldnt be so outrage about these articles. Just because a platform such as TL form has an article having Maru as a GOAT written by ONE person doesn’t mean his opinion weighs more than anyone else. It’s basically the same if an article written and posted on Reddit saying mvp is the goat,
Serral fans should just laugh it off and enjoy the ride. Serral has already overlapped the field in terms of accomplishment and goat status, everything he does now will just be gravy.
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote: Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
There was such a poll on Twitter and INno was ahead of Rogue.
I love INno, big big fan, imo the #2 GOAT in an hypothetical balanced game, but as things stand out he can’t be put above Rogue. Shows how useless and biased such a poll is. No wonder it’s one of the foreign biased YouTubers that put up this poll on Twitter, seems like their ego got hurt by Serral being put #2 in tl.net list despite them not being Joona Sotala (or even from his family)
I'm not so sure it's an ego thing, versus a subset of old-guard TL.net writers telling the populace at large not to believe your eyes, ears, or brain telling you that Serral is the GOAT. Serral has the best statistical case (most tournament wins even excepting some regionals, highest win% against Koreans/top peers, multiple WC titles where he and Maru competed), plus the most prize-money won. AND he has the best story (solo kid in the middle of a frozen, arctic tundra arises to topple the Korean ecosystem of team houses/coaches) while dominating his rival for all-time status historically and in recent matches played. No, he hasn't won every tournament he's entered and has had blips. So has every other player--he's just had far less.
I think the in-thread poll was in Serral's favor nearly 2-1? As much as you might like to dismiss popular opinion, there's a reason why people like Jordan, Brady and Gretzky win overwhelmingly in goat discussions, and it's not because lol masses.
Granted, there's context to the Serral/Maru discussion to be considered, which is why I'm fine with the argument putting Maru over Serral. Just don't pretend like it's not asking people to ignore reality-based evidence. Maru choked away a World Championship and got swept in back-to-back years. That isn't a hypothetical like Serral competing in GSL and somehow losing every one. It happened.
I do actually think putting Serral in an easier/less advanced version of the meta would be the best way to nerf him directly, as it'd be interesting to see him rely purely on strategy and simpler armies to control versus sheer mechanical skill or great army movement/multi-tasking. In which case, I could see greater competition leading to reduced dominance. But if you could translate every player at their peak mechanical skill//knowledge and put them in this era (which I don't think can be argued as having the highest skill-ceiling), I'd take Serral every time.
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote: Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
There was such a poll on Twitter and INno was ahead of Rogue.
I love INno, big big fan, imo the #2 GOAT in an hypothetical balanced game, but as things stand out he can’t be put above Rogue. Shows how useless and biased such a poll is. No wonder it’s one of the foreign biased YouTubers that put up this poll on Twitter, seems like their ego got hurt by Serral being put #2 in tl.net list despite them not being Joona Sotala (or even from his family)
I'm not so sure it's an ego thing, versus a subset of old-guard TL.net writers telling the populace at large not to believe your eyes, ears, or brain telling you that Serral is the GOAT. Serral has the best statistical case (most tournament wins even excepting some regionals, highest win% against Koreans/top peers, multiple WC titles where he and Maru competed), plus the most prize-money won. AND he has the best story (solo kid in the middle of a frozen, arctic tundra arises to topple the Korean ecosystem of team houses/coaches) while dominating his rival for all-time status historically and in recent matches played. No, he hasn't won every tournament he's entered and has had blips. So has every other player--he's just had far less.
I think the in-thread poll was in Serral's favor nearly 2-1? As much as you might like to dismiss popular opinion, there's a reason why people like Jordan, Brady and Gretzky win overwhelmingly in goat discussions, and it's not because lol masses.
Granted, there's context to the Serral/Maru discussion to be considered, which is why I'm fine with the argument putting Maru over Serral. Just don't pretend like it's not asking people to ignore reality-based evidence. Maru choked away a World Championship and got swept in back-to-back years. That isn't a hypothetical like Serral competing in GSL and somehow losing every one. It happened.
I do actually think putting Serral in an easier/less advanced version of the meta would be the best way to nerf him directly, as it'd be interesting to see him rely purely on strategy and simpler armies to control versus sheer mechanical skill or great army movement/multi-tasking. In which case, I could see greater competition leading to reduced dominance. But if you could translate every player at their peak mechanical skill//knowledge and put them in this era (which I don't think can be argued as having the highest skill-ceiling), I'd take Serral every time.
Yeah sure everyone is biased who doesn't agree with your opinion. Maybe there's the possibility that you and the EU casters who called Serral the Goat in 2019 are the biased ones?
Your eyes, ears and brain telling you Serral is the Goat is one thing, trying to force this view onto others and throwing a hissy fit (not you but some others) when realizing the eyes, ears and brains of other people tell them Maru is the Goat, is another.
About the popularity thing, while it's true that popular opinion is important, it's obv way more debated in sc2 than for Brady or Gretzky so the comparisons are kinda bad (not sure why you listed Jordan as it's quite debated actually, but that's a better comparison). Also the fact this is a foreigner centric community I think makes Serral automatically favored in a popularity poll because large parts of the foreign community treat the foreigner-korean rivalry as a "us vs them" also evidenced by casters hyping foreigners (especially Serral) up so much when facing koreans. It's like doing a Goat poll in football in a portuguese community which would obviously turn out in favor of CR7
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote: I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote: I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation.
Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote: I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation.
Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
I agree with a great number things which have been said over the course of these articles.
I agree Serral is a better player than Maru. I've done other iterations of the list as thought experiments. Some of those have Serral as the GOAT. Some have Rogue as the GOAT instead. I think Mvp is in a perfect spot at four. If you only want to focus on collective achievements, I still don't think he can be worse than 20th considering names like ByuN, Cure, Classic, herO, Trap, MC, Rain haven't won as much as him. If you don't like people finishing second that feel free to put soO a lot lower. If you think Dark should be higher I don't agree with you, but I 100% think he could be as high as 4th. I can understand a line of thinking that would have Reynor top 10, but I don't agree with it.
I can go on and on with these types of responses because I considered so much information that I can create arguments for all of these topics. That's not to say malleability should invalidate the rankings in the article series. I believe that, given my process and how I evaluated all the data, that is the correct list.
The one thing people are overlooking is just how much information is in these articles. There are stats from Proleague, Code S, SSL, MLGs, DreamHack Masters, all kinds of ESL events, multiple types of World Championships and a ton of stuff dug up on Aligulac. If someone were conscientious enough and approached everything with an opening mind, they could use the information available (and build on it) to create an evaluation of their own.
If you don't agree with me that's fine. But, I think the people who really went through these pieces and read them carefully understands that this is the largest written collection of information on this subject in StarCraft II history and appreciate it for that reason (and hopefully others). If people skip the articles and just tell me I'm wrong, they're the ones that are losing out—even if you consider my words heretical.
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote: I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation.
Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
I agree Serral is a better player than Maru.
Indeed he is.
This is one of the many things which, for me, settle the matter. Good post either way.
If you don't agree with me that's fine. But, I think the people who really went through these pieces and read them carefully understands that this is the largest written collection of information on this subject in StarCraft II history and appreciate it for that reason (and hopefully others). If people skip the articles and just tell me I'm wrong, they're the ones that are losing out—even if you consider my words heretical.
Too bad someone decided to shit all over your great stat collection and history achievement. Turning its finale into nothing more than rage/engagement bait for a short lived post spike. Makes me quite sad. At least it doesn't invalidate all the work you put in.
Just gives it a shale after taste. Thanks for putting in the work to collect it all so neatly, I appreciate all the work you put in.
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote: I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation.
Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
I agree Serral is a better player than Maru.
Indeed he is.
This is one of the many things which, for me, settle the matter. Good post either way.
On April 02 2024 03:48 Charoisaur wrote: He is. right now. All time is arguable
This. Serral is better right now, however GOAT says "All Time" which should include longer time period that 6 years. Salomon's ruling should be put both Serral and Maru tied on #1 and add a note that year 2024 will tip the scale.
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote: I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation.
Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
I agree Serral is a better player than Maru.
Indeed he is.
This is one of the many things which, for me, settle the matter. Good post either way.
He is. right now. All time is arguable
Yeah. Just like when Rogue was facing Serral or Maru in the final BO7 of tournament as he definitely would win for sure.Then, he should be considered the current best one whenever he won the tournaments, but some fans would not ready to accept the argument as they cited consistencies, longevity and period of dominance the foremost. As a results, no.1 is not an option, not because he was so good at winning the title but the lack of consistencies and other factors devalued his ranking over the others. Personally, I think Rogue should be no.2 while Serral should be no.3 if Rogue still continue winning and didn't enter military service too soon until 2024's ranking was published.
Goes to the military.....still demolishes everybody, including Maru. What a beast. Its still shame though, that Maru cant give any more resistance. GG WP, GOAT !
On June 03 2024 09:41 Starcloud wrote: Goes to the military.....still demolishes everybody, including Maru. What a beast. Its still shame though, that Maru cant give any more resistance. GG WP, GOAT !
Goat just keeps winning
New patch that nerfed Zerg, especially a direct nerf at Serral infestor play. No problem
Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
Have any interest in sharing these arguments?
Easy, because his favorite player hasn't win shit after 2022, therefore anything after that doesn't count.
Serral #1. His record in these recent tournaments show that he's a class above others. He only dropped two maps this entire tournament and it was to the current world champion, going 14-2. Did not drop a single map versus a GSL player.
Last IEM he dropped one map in the entire tournament, going 20-1. Going 34-3 in these last two tournaments is insane. All while handing the #1 "GOAT" an 8-0 cake. I think we're weighing the GSL titles too heavily, it's not Kespa/Teamhouse era anymore. Maru isn't the GOAT because he wins GSL, Maru wins GSL because Serral is too busy golfing and doing military service and doesnt want to play in Korea.
On June 04 2024 07:48 phodacbiet wrote: Serral #1. His record in these recent tournaments show that he's a class above others. He only dropped two maps this entire tournament and it was to the current world champion, going 14-2. Did not drop a single map versus a GSL player.
Last IEM he dropped one map in the entire tournament, going 20-1. Going 34-3 in these last two tournaments is insane. All while handing the #1 "GOAT" an 8-0 cake. I think we're weighing the GSL titles too heavily, it's not Kespa/Teamhouse era anymore. Maru isn't the GOAT because he wins GSL, Maru wins GSL because Serral is too busy golfing and doing military service and doesnt want to play in Korea.
And also cus Rogue left for military so he wasn't able to keep stopping Maru from winning GSLs !
It would be awesome to see Rogue return to form in a few months, and put up better fights vs Serral than Maru. I would love the narrative to change to Serral being #1 and Rogue being #2, and for Rogue to deny Maru at least 1 or 2 GSLs again before it dies off for good
But yeah it is crazy and also interesting that the only games he lost was to the current world champion, and he lost 0 games to a G8L player across both tournaments.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
In my opinion Maru isn't even top 20 and Harstem is clearly the best player in the world. Have you even seen the Captain? Glorious! Arguments have been made + Show Spoiler +
On June 04 2024 15:51 Harris1st wrote: In my opinion Maru isn't even top 20 and Harstem is clearly the best player in the world. Have you even seen the Captain? Glorious! Arguments have been made + Show Spoiler +
up
I know this guy you mentioned. He is definitely the best player of this world, above Serral of course. My personal list of top 3 players is #1 Harstem, #2 Captain Kevin and #3 Cowboy
On June 04 2024 15:51 Harris1st wrote: In my opinion Maru isn't even top 20 and Harstem is clearly the best player in the world. Have you even seen the Captain? Glorious! Arguments have been made + Show Spoiler +
up
I know this guy you mentioned. He is definitely the best player of this world, above Serral of course. My personal list of top 3 players is #1 Harstem, #2 Captain Kevin and #3 Cowboy
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
I agree about nr 3. but about Maru For me 1 Serral 2 Rogue 3 Maru. Yes Maru has more GSL's than Rogue especially since Rogue left into the military. But the level of GSL has dropped significantly and Rogue has a broader list of tournament wins. Korean, International he has won it all and not just once. And while Serral haven't played in GSL, in every international tournament he plays vs top GSL players, and GSL winners or multiple GSL winners even. Most of the time its not even close and he looks like a tier above them.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
I agree about nr 3. but about Maru For me 1 Serral 2 Rogue 3 Maru. Yes Maru has more GSL's than Rogue especially since Rogue left into the military. But the level of GSL has dropped significantly and Rogue has a broader list of tournament wins. Korean, International he has won it all and not just once. And while Serral haven't played in GSL, in every international tournament he plays vs top GSL players, and GSL winners or multiple GSL winners even. Most of the time its not even close and he looks like a tier above them.
This sounds about right. Rogue is no question above Maru
Maru can’t win a world title to save his life no matter how easy /road he constantly gets. He still managed to get stomp over and over.
Really it's Maru's 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th GSLs that he won after Rogue left for the military, that seem to be putting him above Rogue in people's eyes.
Before Rogue left for the military, consensus had shifted towards Rogue > Maru (especially because of recency bias, but still). Once he left, of course Maru was free to win GSLs uncontested... it was an easier field without Rogue to stop him.
If you put Maru above Rogue just because of GSL win #5-8, you need to really consider it again.
Serral wins the biggest international events, including both GSL events he entered. Rogue has also won some of the biggest international events, and also has dominated the GSL scene. Maru has dominated the GSL scene similar to Rogue, but also Proleague (but that's a team competition). Maru racking up additional GSLs after Rogue left has a huge asterisk because the one who had his number was forced to leave.
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Rogue started winning things in 2017 which was kinda right before the "weaker" era.
On June 03 2024 20:20 swarminfestor wrote: Still no. 3 in my opinion, wont change eventhough he keep winning top tier titles since 2022. Arguments has been made why Serral can't be no.1 no matter how much wins he gets.
No 3.? Both Maru and Rogue (no idea, who else you could mean) have mostly gathered their titles in the same period as Serral, but they took more time to accumulate Premier Tournament wins and have less amazing statistics versus top Koreans. Even if you leave out all the titles that Serral has from tournaments with non-Koreans (and which he could have used to win Korean tournaments, thus denying Rogue and Maru wins), he still outclasses them both in PT wins and statistics. He has the best numbers, period. There is no denying this... the only talk people can bring up is that lame "he never won GSL"-BS. But do we judge Maru on the same basis? Serral never tried GSL, but Maru tried several World Championships and never succeeded - somehow this fact is irrelevant.
On June 03 2024 20:20 branch.AUT wrote: Don't need arguments to hold an opinion.
Absolutely. But if you try to convince anyone of your opinion arguments, logic and reason come in handy.
On June 04 2024 15:51 Harris1st wrote: In my opinion Maru isn't even top 20 and Harstem is clearly the best player in the world. Have you even seen the Captain? Glorious! Arguments have been made + Show Spoiler +
up
I know this guy you mentioned. He is definitely the best player of this world, above Serral of course. My personal list of top 3 players is #1 Harstem, #2 Captain Kevin and #3 Cowboy
On June 05 2024 03:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Really it's Maru's 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th GSLs that he won after Rogue left for the military, that seem to be putting him above Rogue in people's eyes.
Before Rogue left for the military, consensus had shifted towards Rogue > Maru (especially because of recency bias, but still). Once he left, of course Maru was free to win GSLs uncontested... it was an easier field without Rogue to stop him.
If you put Maru above Rogue just because of GSL win #5-8, you need to really consider it again.
Serral wins the biggest international events, including both GSL events he entered. Rogue has also won some of the biggest international events, and also has dominated the GSL scene. Maru has dominated the GSL scene similar to Rogue, but also Proleague (but that's a team competition). Maru racking up additional GSLs after Rogue left has a huge asterisk because the one who had his number was forced to leave.
I’d say broadly those who put Maru’s case go for a combo of him being amongst the top tier of players for so long, and his sheer level of play and skill. Plus other caveats such as him still placing deep when literally no other Terran was doing much.
Their vote as it were hasn’t really changed, and if that’s what their weight was, it’s unlikely to change. Nobody can conceivably come along and replicate Maru’s career over a sufficient span at this point
Likewise I’d probably narrowly go with Serral, but that was the case for me even before Katowice. His insane record in 2023/24 is really just building that gap, as I value the kind of consistency and periods of wider dominance that he’s shown for years now.
I’m not sure how much movement we can get with how folks weight relative cases. Maru’s got his Starleagues and can’t be caught realistically, Serral doesn’t look like anyone can match him in consistent level.
Maybe Maru gets the WC monkey off his back, but those who rate him #1 do it without it, and those who don’t aren’t likely to be swayed across by him ‘merely’ winning one
I think it makes for interesting discussions but it does attest to how much the scene has changed that we’re kind of indulging in comparing quite different claims, and I don’t think many are all that liable to change now! Perhaps I may be wrong on that though
On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote: but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Yes, actually. During around 2019-2021 or so, there was a period where Serral wasn't winning a ton ton yet, and it was mainly riding off of his insane 2018-2019 year. Many of the KRs went on record saying they think Rogue is a better Zerg better than Serral. Rogue was considered by many the best player around 2021-2022, and especially when he won his 4th GSL denying Maru another time, right before retiring.
Of course, with time that changed, and now KRs unanimously say Serral is the best player. But there was that time when Rogue was peaking that many did consider him the best player. He consistently denied Maru GSL/Supers, and he made most of them look easy, in much the way Serral does now. Rogue also put up competitive series vs Serral when they met.
So, it was much less clear back then who was the best player, and there was enough room for imagination to fill the gaps.
Also, i wanna give credit to Artosis for bringing Rogue back into the discussion, because I do think he unfairly gets overlooked in the GOAT discussion. I do agree with Artosis's distinction between the Greatest player of all time and Best player currently or Best player of all time.
I think an example that many might agree with, is if you imagine sOs won a 4th and 5th world championship, then some people may consider him the GOAT for pulling off magic. We all know he's not the best player, he doesn't have the highest winrates, he doesn't have a GSL win, his macro play is pretty weak, etc. etc. But if he DID accomplish an insanely amazing feat as winning 5 world championships, that would inspire that sense of wonder and greatness that I think is an integral part of the "Greatest" of all time. Very similar to how Fruitdealer winning the first GSL despite the odds, even if it is just 1 GSL tournament, awards him a lot of greatness that other players winning 1 GSL didn't get.
Anyway, I think Serral has firmly put himself as the best player of all time in SC2. And now, I think it would be really cool if Rogue and Maru start to put up a better fight and start contesting that again to try to be seen as the best player even if just for 1 tournament or a few months. It'd make the storylines and stakes very compelling.
On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote: but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Yes, actually. During around 2019-2021 or so, there was a period where Serral wasn't winning a ton ton yet, and it was mainly riding off of his insane 2018-2019 year. Many of the KRs went on record saying they think Rogue is a better Zerg better than Serral. Rogue was considered by many the best player around 2021-2022, and especially when he won his 4th GSL denying Maru another time, right before retiring.
Of course, with time that changed, and now KRs unanimously say Serral is the best player. But there was that time when Rogue was peaking that many did consider him the best player. He consistently denied Maru GSL/Supers, and he made most of them look easy, in much the way Serral does now. Rogue also put up competitive series vs Serral when they met.
So, it was much less clear back then who was the best player, and there was enough room for imagination to fill the gaps.
Also, i wanna give credit to Artosis for bringing Rogue back into the discussion, because I do think he unfairly gets overlooked in the GOAT discussion. I do agree with Artosis's distinction between the Greatest player of all time and Best player currently or Best player of all time.
I think an example that many might agree with, is if you imagine sOs won a 4th and 5th world championship, then some people may consider him the GOAT for pulling off magic. We all know he's not the best player, he doesn't have the highest winrates, he doesn't have a GSL win, his macro play is pretty weak, etc. etc. But if he DID accomplish an insanely amazing feat as winning 5 world championships, that would inspire that sense of wonder and greatness that I think is an integral part of the "Greatest" of all time. Very similar to how Fruitdealer winning the first GSL despite the odds, even if it is just 1 GSL tournament, awards him a lot of greatness that other players winning 1 GSL didn't get.
Anyway, I think Serral has firmly put himself as the best player of all time in SC2. And now, I think it would be really cool if Rogue and Maru start to put up a better fight and start contesting that again to try to be seen as the best player even if just for 1 tournament or a few months. It'd make the storylines and stakes very compelling.
Serral kind of suffers a bit for being so damn good He doesn’t really have some defining other characteristic to augment his story, he’s just really fucking good.
Latter day Mvp was making borderline miraculous runs against the new stars with a half broken body, sOs would seize the day at a big, big tournament. And Rogue could bomb out of GSL but you knew he’d deliver come a Blizzcon. Plus his Bo7 record and you’ve got maybe THE clutch player when it really counts.
Of course on the flipside, there’s nothing more clutch ultimately than rarely losing early in tournaments, but I think resolute consistency rather counter-intuitively can diminish the ‘greatness’ factor (which I do think is super important as well, as intangible as it can be)
Makes the discussion fun factoring all that craic in!
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88(81.12%) in games and 153–14(91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved (triple world champions, code s titles) would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017 because the bias starts from that moment.
I blamed the casters bias always highlighting and pitching "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he definitely traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and Serral consistently was placed in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final no matter what, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene.
I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career.
I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022.
On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017.. The bias starts from 2017.
I blamed the casters bias always highlighting "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he always traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and consistently put Serral in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene.
I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career.
I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022.
Starts with "Clearly some bias from Serral's fans" and ends with a signature "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" and in the middle some rambling about how it's Serrals fault the way the brackets work and if Serral would face Maru earlier in a tournament surely Maru would win but in a final it's clear that Serral would win...
On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017.. The bias starts from 2017.
I blamed the casters bias always highlighting "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he always traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and consistently put Serral in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene.
I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career.
I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022.
Starts with "Clearly some bias from Serral's fans" and ends with a signature "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" and in the middle some rambling about how it's Serrals fault the way the brackets work and if Serral would face Maru earlier in a tournament surely Maru would win but in a final it's clear that Serral would win...
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88(81.12%) in games and 153–14(91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88(81.12%) in games and 153–14(91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans... 2018: 85,71% 2019: 76,67% 2020: 85,71% 2021: 70,31% 2022: 73,68% 2023: 85,11%
I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school. Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous.
He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past).
I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts.
On June 05 2024 19:37 PremoBeats wrote: Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans... 2018: 85,71% 2019: 76,67% 2020: 85,71% 2021: 70,31% 2022: 73,68% 2023: 85,11%
I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school. Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous.
He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past).
I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts.
Yeah, this to me is the strongest point towards Serial being GOAT. He simply is the best player to ever touch the game.
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
But most of Maru's individual victories have come since 2018, haven't they? He didn't even win GSL in 2020,2021
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
Serral's name simply wasn't on the GOAT debate list 2018, because people assumed he'd be gone after 1 or 2 years... he won 7 Premier Tournaments that year, 3 of which were with top Korean participation. If 2018 was a year where competition was still deep, Serral played against these top dogs too. As a matter of fact, 2018 is one of the 3 years, where Serral had an over 85% match win rate versus top Koreans (the majority of pros doesn't even reach 70%, except for a handful over the years... Maru had 67,69% in 2018 as a comparison).
And only because Serral's name came into the GOAT debate 2022, doesn't mean that he didn't have achievements before that. Fact is, Maru won most of his tournaments (except two) 2018 and later, same as Serral.
I really wonder, if Serral and Maru keep going at the same rate (Serral having much better win rates, more won tournaments and better records against individual players) in 20 years will be like: Yeah, both are amazing, but Maru has 2 more PT wins pre-2018, lol. At one point, dominance needs to outclass a couple of more active years, where the respected player didn't really win all that much.
On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote: Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017.. The bias starts from 2017.
I blamed the casters bias always highlighting "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he always traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and consistently put Serral in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene.
I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career.
I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022.
Starts with "Clearly some bias from Serral's fans" and ends with a signature "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" and in the middle some rambling about how it's Serrals fault the way the brackets work and if Serral would face Maru earlier in a tournament surely Maru would win but in a final it's clear that Serral would win...
Yeah dude, you got it all figured out
That person throws around the accusation of "bias" without any sense of self awareness. People like him aren't interested in what is real, but imposing their personal beliefs onto others. He does indeed have it all figured out—in his own little world.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
On June 05 2024 03:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Really it's Maru's 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th GSLs that he won after Rogue left for the military, that seem to be putting him above Rogue in people's eyes.
Before Rogue left for the military, consensus had shifted towards Rogue > Maru (especially because of recency bias, but still). Once he left, of course Maru was free to win GSLs uncontested... it was an easier field without Rogue to stop him.
If you put Maru above Rogue just because of GSL win #5-8, you need to really consider it again.
Serral wins the biggest international events, including both GSL events he entered. Rogue has also won some of the biggest international events, and also has dominated the GSL scene. Maru has dominated the GSL scene similar to Rogue, but also Proleague (but that's a team competition). Maru racking up additional GSLs after Rogue left has a huge asterisk because the one who had his number was forced to leave.
I’d say broadly those who put Maru’s case go for a combo of him being amongst the top tier of players for so long, and his sheer level of play and skill. Plus other caveats such as him still placing deep when literally no other Terran was doing much.
Their vote as it were hasn’t really changed, and if that’s what their weight was, it’s unlikely to change. Nobody can conceivably come along and replicate Maru’s career over a sufficient span at this point
Likewise I’d probably narrowly go with Serral, but that was the case for me even before Katowice. His insane record in 2023/24 is really just building that gap, as I value the kind of consistency and periods of wider dominance that he’s shown for years now.
I’m not sure how much movement we can get with how folks weight relative cases. Maru’s got his Starleagues and can’t be caught realistically, Serral doesn’t look like anyone can match him in consistent level.
Maybe Maru gets the WC monkey off his back, but those who rate him #1 do it without it, and those who don’t aren’t likely to be swayed across by him ‘merely’ winning one
I think it makes for interesting discussions but it does attest to how much the scene has changed that we’re kind of indulging in comparing quite different claims, and I don’t think many are all that liable to change now! Perhaps I may be wrong on that though
I like this analysis a lot because it highlights what imo are the reasons why these discussions can be fun but ultimately won't sway people one way or the other. I'm fine just saying maru, rogue, and serral are all beasts regardless of who in my subjective opinion is #1
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88(81.12%) in games and 153–14(91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans... 2018: 85,71% 2019: 76,67% 2020: 85,71% 2021: 70,31% 2022: 73,68% 2023: 85,11%
I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school. Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous.
He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past).
I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts.
Those stats are wild. Serral has been the favorite to win almost every tourney he's entered for the vast majority of nearly 7 years, or half the game's lifespan.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
Serral's name simply wasn't on the GOAT debate list 2018, because people assumed he'd be gone after 1 or 2 years... he won 7 Premier Tournaments that year, 3 of which were with top Korean participation. If 2018 was a year where competition was still deep, Serral played against these top dogs too. As a matter of fact, 2018 is one of the 3 years, where Serral had an over 85% match win rate versus top Koreans (the majority of pros doesn't even reach 70%, except for a handful over the years... Maru had 67,69% in 2018 as a comparison).
And only because Serral's name came into the GOAT debate 2022, doesn't mean that he didn't have achievements before that. Fact is, Maru won most of his tournaments (except two) 2018 and later, same as Serral.
I really wonder, if Serral and Maru keep going at the same rate (Serral having much better win rates, more won tournaments and better records against individual players) in 20 years will be like: Yeah, both are amazing, but Maru has 2 more PT wins pre-2018, lol. At one point, dominance needs to outclass a couple of more active years, where the respected player didn't really win all that much.
Yeah Serral's 2018 was amazing and impressive and all but they aren't enough to put him into Goat conversation. For Serral to be a Goat contender he absolutely needs his results from 2022 onwards to be considered highly, Maru was already a Goat contender before that.0
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
So disgusting yeah sure when the narrative being rogue won 3 wc and was dominating during "peak starcraft" when his first tourney win is from mid 2017 But no distortion of facts by the koreaboo of this forum sure For Maru I agree tho since 2013 the guy is amazing
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88(81.12%) in games and 153–14(91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
Aye, I think some of us (I was a doubter) felt that one could get to those kind of match win rates, but you’d need to make Bo7s the standard match format.
Even against worse opposition I might add. Even when someone like Stephano was a clear cut above other foreigners when it came to actually going toe-to-toe with top Korean talent, he didn’t dominate his fellow foreigners to anything like that degree.
Perhaps Oliveira or Special can put up similar numbers for their regions over the years, which is impressive in itself but of course Serral’s doing so versus the top dogs.
Another fun caveat is that Serral’s numbers and rating on Aligulac would be even higher if he played in weeklies as well. Probably not a fun prospect for the regulars in those mind!
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
You were irritated because people have opinions?
I come here, and have to read "Life GOAT," "sOs GOAT," and recently "Rogue GOAT" over and over, and it only amuses me. At that time, Serral wasn't only winning almost everything, he was showing numbers that had never been seen before. In the view of many fans, most dominating ever = GOAT, so I don't see any problem with this. Everyone has their own criteria. SC2 is still ongoing; one could say crowning anybody GOAT right now is "premature."
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Come on, just because casters called him the Goat, doesn't mean he had any right to be in the conversation after 2 tournament wins with korean competition (that's when they started it). If me and my buddys start calling DRG the Goat, it doesn't make him a Goat contender.
If you look at the actual accomplishments there's just no way Serral's pre-2022 resumee holds up compared to Inno, Maru, Rogue, Mvp or even Life.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Come on, just because casters called him the Goat, doesn't mean he had any right to be in the conversation after 2 tournament wins with korean competition (that's when they started it). If me and my buddys start calling DRG the Goat, it doesn't make him a Goat contender.
If you look at the actual accomplishments there's just no way Serral's pre-2022 resumee holds up compared to Inno, Maru, Rogue, Mvp or even Life.
He’s got a very decent top 10 claim by at least the end of 2019, perhaps not one for the top spot absolutely, that wouldn’t be for a while.
But he’s in the conversation with a bunch of names, he’s just not going to come out on the top at that stage.
I mean I’m of the opinion that SC2 has undergone so much flux in format, different expos etc that it’s not possible to have some definitive GOAT, merely be in the conversation.
Most claims have some kind of hole in them. Life didn’t last, Inno never really stepped up at a World Champ, Maru still hasn’t won a big standard offline weekender outside of Europe etc. Serral’s coming in a more depressed era etc.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Come on, just because casters called him the Goat, doesn't mean he had any right to be in the conversation after 2 tournament wins with korean competition (that's when they started it). If me and my buddys start calling DRG the Goat, it doesn't make him a Goat contender.
If you look at the actual accomplishments there's just no way Serral's pre-2022 resumee holds up compared to Inno, Maru, Rogue, Mvp or even Life.
He’s got a very decent top 10 claim by at least the end of 2019, perhaps not one for the top spot absolutely, that wouldn’t be for a while.
But he’s in the conversation with a bunch of names, he’s just not going to come out on the top at that stage.
I mean I’m of the opinion that SC2 has undergone so much flux in format, different expos etc that it’s not possible to have some definitive GOAT, merely be in the conversation.
Most claims have some kind of hole in them. Life didn’t last, Inno never really stepped up at a World Champ, Maru still hasn’t won a big standard offline weekender outside of Europe etc. Serral’s coming in a more depressed era etc.
Then I guess we just have different definitions what it means to be a "Goat contender". I interpreted it as 'has a legitimate claim to be the greatest of all time' and not 'be in the top 10'.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
I still remember the "innovation is the most skilled player to ever touch the game" by tastosis during early hots. That was peak intellectual honesty I guess. Dear got called as such as well during his short domination.
Overhyping player when they begin a dominating streak is nothing new.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
Serral's name simply wasn't on the GOAT debate list 2018, because people assumed he'd be gone after 1 or 2 years... he won 7 Premier Tournaments that year, 3 of which were with top Korean participation. If 2018 was a year where competition was still deep, Serral played against these top dogs too. As a matter of fact, 2018 is one of the 3 years, where Serral had an over 85% match win rate versus top Koreans (the majority of pros doesn't even reach 70%, except for a handful over the years... Maru had 67,69% in 2018 as a comparison).
And only because Serral's name came into the GOAT debate 2022, doesn't mean that he didn't have achievements before that. Fact is, Maru won most of his tournaments (except two) 2018 and later, same as Serral.
I really wonder, if Serral and Maru keep going at the same rate (Serral having much better win rates, more won tournaments and better records against individual players) in 20 years will be like: Yeah, both are amazing, but Maru has 2 more PT wins pre-2018, lol. At one point, dominance needs to outclass a couple of more active years, where the respected player didn't really win all that much.
Yeah Serral's 2018 was amazing and impressive and all but they aren't enough to put him into Goat conversation. For Serral to be a Goat contender he absolutely needs his results from 2022 onwards to be considered highly, Maru was already a Goat contender before that.0
I didn't say it was, although it clearly was vocalized by people.
And I still don't get your point. Yes, Maru was a GOAT contender before Serral, but Serral's ascension was what got in the way of a probably uncontested GOAT status for Maru, despite Maru's shortcomings. Rogue is #3 for most, so without Serral, Maru would be the GOAT for most people (myself included). It is simply as I pointed out: the individual results of Maru pre-2018 are not enough for me to put him before the inhuman dominance that Serral is displaying in his 7th year now. And I'd really like to know this: Let's say things continue as they are now... Serral's dominance in won Premier Tournaments with top Korean participation, his insane records versus top players as well as his win rates stay the same. How long would it take for you to accept that Serral is the GOAT? He has been dominating this game for around half its existance in a way no one else even remotely comes close (I posted the insane match win rates of Serral in comparison to other pros before)... so how long does he need to continue doing this? Or wouldn't it matter to you, even if he did so for another 7 years as he never played in the Kespa era?
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
So disgusting yeah sure when the narrative being rogue won 3 wc and was dominating during "peak starcraft" when his first tourney win is from mid 2017 But no distortion of facts by the koreaboo of this forum sure For Maru I agree tho since 2013 the guy is amazing
Korean StarCraft II was incredibly robust in 2017 and 2018. SSL was still running in 2017, VSL was around, GSL was holding multiple super tournaments and GSL vs the World. Lots of players were streaming and traveling to events as well since they needed to make up the salary they didn't have anymore. You had Rogue, TY, Stats, Dark and more becoming championship contenders, while big names like INnoVation, Classic, soO, Maru, Zest etc were still in the latter stages of their primes. Did Rogue dominate during "peak starcraft"? I think that's a dumb statement. He was never dominant, but he starting becoming a much better question during what was still a hyper competitive environment (only the b teamers quit in 2016 and 2017).
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
So disgusting yeah sure when the narrative being rogue won 3 wc and was dominating during "peak starcraft" when his first tourney win is from mid 2017 But no distortion of facts by the koreaboo of this forum sure For Maru I agree tho since 2013 the guy is amazing
Korean StarCraft II was incredibly robust in 2017 and 2018. SSL was still running in 2017, VSL was around, GSL was holding multiple super tournaments and GSL vs the World. Lots of players were streaming and traveling to events as well since they needed to make up the salary they didn't have anymore. You had Rogue, TY, Stats, Dark and more becoming championship contenders, while big names like INnoVation, Classic, soO, Maru, Zest etc were still in the latter stages of their primes. Did Rogue dominate during "peak starcraft"? I think that's a dumb statement. He was never dominant, but he starting becoming a much better question during what was still a hyper competitive environment (only the b teamers quit in 2016 and 2017).
I think it's fair to say that Rogue was dominant offline, especially outside of Korea, having the highest offline winrate vs Koreans after Serral. He made into the ro4 5 times of WCs, and won 3 of them. That's pretty wild. Even with his relatively weak online record, he somehow has >50% record vs Serral online. The more I think about it, the more it seems Rogue and Maru are pretty close. WC I weigh much more heavily than a GSL, but Maru does have 3 2nd place finishes, the big Chinese one, and a 2nd in another, which are extremely high merits. Maru's recent GSL wins have been diminished in prestige due to diminishing prize money, which is very sad. I think all in all, they're very, very close post-2018. I guess Maru's Kespa-era performance edges it out for him.
Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
In pre-cabal times we also had some of the worst periods of balance out there, except the theory then was for some reason Blizz were favouring Zergs because there were a lot of decent foreign Zergs.
I’m really not a fan of such theories, without clear evidence to the contrary I prefer to assume good faith attempts to make a balanced game and a fun game, even if results are imperfect.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
david kim =/= the intern that gave us 2019
Was David Kim not in charge for both the BL/Infestor and swarmhost turtle metas?
Was David Kim not in charge for both the BL/Infestor and swarmhost turtle metas?
Depends on what you mean by "in charge" He was in charge of balance (and some unit design) More than just one dude decides what goes into the game, and he has knobs to turn. Swarmhost was just a tough unit to balance, period.
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote: The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
People still have Life high in their lists for a very potent couple of years, Innovation entered the scene like a freight train and was considered Mvp’s potential GOAT heir pretty quickly. 2022 strikes me as way too late for Serral to merely be entering the conversation.
Serral’s 2018 is one of the best year’s an SC2 player put together, along with Maru in that same span oddly enough.
Indeed I recall it annoyed people when casters and some fans were already calling him the GOAT early on. I’d agree it was premature myself, and at times actively irritating but plenty of people were already talking of him being in that conversation way back.
Right, so 90 percent of team houses collapsing and the top 100 players collectively retiring in 2016 was just a 'gradual shift', while some random american protoss won something the year after was also just a gradual shift.
In fact, given that the viewership already in 2013-14 looked absolutely shite (hello, proleague had to HIRE people to watch it live lmao), a lot already lost motivation.
On June 17 2024 15:33 THERIDDLER wrote: Maru didn't have his buddies sitting on the council editing the game for him. Serral couldn't last 50 min in their bo7 against maru when david kim was around.
Serral went 7-3 in series against Maru before the cabal took over.
Overall I would say the cabal have been favouring Terrran and disfavouring Protoss.
david kim =/= the intern that gave us 2019
Was David Kim not in charge for both the BL/Infestor and swarmhost turtle metas?
And who was in charge during the Ghost / Raven Seeker Missile meta?
Was David Kim not in charge for both the BL/Infestor and swarmhost turtle metas?
Depends on what you mean by "in charge" He was in charge of balance (and some unit design) More than just one dude decides what goes into the game, and he has knobs to turn. Swarmhost was just a tough unit to balance, period.
Well yes, to quote myself from just up the page, ‘I’m really not a fan of such theories, without clear evidence to the contrary I prefer to assume good faith attempts to make a balanced game and a fun game, even if results are imperfect.’
It’s a difficult gig, not a singular one as you rightly point out and folks doing it are constrained by many factors, the core game design being one of those.
I’m just reacting to perceptions that the Balance CouncilTM are skewing the game in any particular direction when there were just as many rough periods when Blizz were at the helm. And folks made the same accusations then, and I disagreed with them then too.
SC2 was a clusterfuck in all of that balance crap. Balancing for low levels, removing the early game where you could deviate and check someone hard for being greedy. And the design choice of certain units was just awful and made for bad metas. Not to mention the constant desire/need they felt to balance something always instead of letting it play out. Sure BW might not be perfect at all, but the meta is still changing and adapting to make up for differences, some of those differences were considered unbeatable at certain points. Best part was when you'd get done watching a GSL match where that supposed new unbeatable strategy just got beat just as they're releasing a patch to nerf that same strategy.
Outside of that though the argument is about who is/isn't the goat, not who has the biggest gripe about balance. If that is their or your point, then you're truly not goat material IMO.
Thing is you can say whatever to justify your changes. Protoss OP in GM so we nerf them, screwing them over at pro play. Then when there're no results, you just say git gud.
Zergs lose to ghosts, better change the game, because it's obviously broken. Protoss lose to ghosts, let the meta settle.
Terrans kill zerg/protoss every game with a powerful push, this Terran is a god. Protoss does the same, clearly this is imbalanced and need fixing.
Then there's turtle protoss play which for some reason is cancer, but at the same time that is standard zerg play, and even terran mech has a better reputation than protoss defensive play. In here we also see t defensive nerfs, nerfing maru and t buffs buffing aggro play (clem). This has an effect on serral vs. maru discussion, because maru cannot have seeker missiles, strong ghosts. But for serral it is expected that he should win late game, so we keep zerg OP in this aspect. Just see 10 range fungal.
Zergs in military, serral going and rogue just returning, so we better have a zerg patch. Protoss players in military, wait for them to come back and get their skill up again, which doesn't even matter, because protoss don't win anyways.
It seems like there was a point that serral was hailed the greatest, and I was also on the wagon at the time, so we simply balance the game around him winning everytime, then we know we have a balanced game. Problem is the other zergs caught up, and we end up with zergs winning everything, instead of serral winning everything.
On August 28 2024 16:55 ejozl wrote: Protoss also sucked in sc1.
Thing is you can say whatever to justify your changes. Protoss OP in GM so we nerf them, screwing them over at pro play. Then when there're no results, you just say git gud.
Zergs lose to ghosts, better change the game, because it's obviously broken. Protoss lose to ghosts, let the meta settle.
Terrans kill zerg/protoss every game with a powerful push, this Terran is a god. Protoss does the same, clearly this is imbalanced and need fixing.
Then there's turtle protoss play which for some reason is cancer, but at the same time that is standard zerg play, and even terran mech has a better reputation than protoss defensive play. In here we also see t defensive nerfs, nerfing maru and t buffs buffing aggro play (clem). This has an effect on serral vs. maru discussion, because maru cannot have seeker missiles, strong ghosts. But for serral it is expected that he should win late game, so we keep zerg OP in this aspect. Just see 10 range fungal.
Zergs in military, serral going and rogue just returning, so we better have a zerg patch. Protoss players in military, wait for them to come back and get their skill up again, which doesn't even matter, because protoss don't win anyways.
It seems like there was a point that serral was hailed the greatest, and I was also on the wagon at the time, so we simply balance the game around him winning everytime, then we know we have a balanced game. Problem is the other zergs caught up, and we end up with zergs winning everything, instead of serral winning everything.
Serral tore Maru apart with burrowed infestor play that got nerfed almost immediately, Zerg had nerfs to absolute core units like banelings in the recent enough past.
The idea that Terran gets the wrong end of the nerf stick and Zerg remains untouched just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
Protoss just isn’t going to be as potent as the other two races so long as its core design flaws remain. Some people think such mechanics are cool and fit the race, which is fair enough. But the faction just straight up is not going to scale to the extent it’s equivalently strong at the very highest level so long as they remain.
herO is the only championship calibre player Protoss have currently that actually plays offline events. He’s still the exception to the rule that military returnees come back diminished. As yet that holds true for all the races.
He’s won a GSL, made another final, won a Dreamhack, made a Ro4 at EWC. Made it out of the group of death at Katowice only to fall shortly after, but maybe with a better bracket he goes deeper there. Made some other deep runs in other tournaments
If your only champ tier player since Trap went monster mode picks up a few championships and makes some deep runs elsewhere, I mean surely that’s the expected result?
If Serral/Dark/Reynor all retired for some reason, would the expectation be that DRG or Rag start frequently winning tournaments. Because that seems to be the expectation on the Protoss end.
No disrespect meant, they’re both incredible players, but there are tiers of talent at play.
temporarily locking to point people to the consolidated thread. I don't think it's ideal to have 38483 discussions going on in four different threads, even if they're TECHNICALLY of a slightly different nature.