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#9: TY - Greatest Players of All Time

Forum Index > SC2 General
63 CommentsPost a Reply
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Read the introduction article for information on the methodology behind this article series.


Editor's note: In 2015 TL.net's stuchiu tried to answer the most controversial question in all of StarCraft II: Who are the greatest players of all time?

No, the series didn't lead to the community reaching a harmonious consensus, but it was a fantastic way to look back on competitive StarCraft II history and celebrate its most accomplished players.

Eight years after stuchiu named Mvp the GOAT, Mizenhauer has decided to take a shot at creating an updated list. His approach and viewpoints are entirely different, but it's no less appreciative of StarCraft II history. Who will make the top ten cutoff this time around?

#9: TY - Greatest Players of All Time

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
January 17th, 2024 17:00 GMT

The Greatest Players of All Time

#9: TY

By: Mizenhauer

• Double-World Championship Winner in 2017 (IEM & WESG)
• 4 Code S Finals appearances, 2 Championships
• Top 2 Korean Individual League win-rate during five-year prime


Notable tournament finishes
  • 2016 GSL Code S Season 1: 2nd place
  • 2016 (2017*) World Electronic Esports Games: 1st place
  • 2017 IEM Katowice: 1st place
  • 2017 GSL vs The World: 2nd place
  • 2018 Code S Season 3: 2nd place
  • 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: 2nd place
  • 2020 Code S Season 1: 1st place
  • 2020 Code S Season 3: 1st place


TY secures his place among the greatest players in StarCraft II ever through historic bursts of brilliance paired with tremendous long-term consistency.

His first career-defining run came in in 2017, when he won the IEM Katowice and WESG world championships in the span of two months. Later, in 2020, TY matched that achievement in Korea by winning two Code S championships in the same year.

TY's longevity and consistency are just as impressive as his peaks. He played at a championship-contender level for nearly six years, and recorded one of the most outstanding win-rates in major Korean tournaments during the LotV era.

Strategic genius and a deep understanding of StarCraft II were the keys to TY's success. He was a build order artisan, with his creations ranging from deadly timing attacks to rock-solid macro set-ups. He was also a master of positional play and understanding win conditions—something that made him one of the few players who could credibly use mech at the highest level. More importantly, it helped make him one of the best, if not the best, TvT player ever.

Career Overview: Bloom late, but bloom long

TY's success in StarCraft II was the long-delayed denouement of a journey that started during his childhood. Even in a profession characterized by youth and a 'candle burning at both ends' mentality towards careers, TY was considered a prodigy. His first notable result was finishing second in 2003's HanbitSoft King of the Star Contest in SC: Brood War… …at the tender age of 8. By 2007, he had made the first-team roster of Proleague team WeMade FOX, and he recorded his first Proleague win that year at the age of 13. Aptly, his ID during this period was BaBy.

Unfortunately for young TY, he couldn't live up to the considerable hype around him. Rather than greatness, he had to settle for merely decent. The move to StarCraft II gave many KeSPA players a chance to revitalize their careers, but TY remained on the same track of mediocrity for his first three years in SC2.


A young TY debuts in Proleague by elder abusing defeating veteran player DaezanG.

However, in 2015, the eight year of his professional career, TY took the first strides towards realizing his prophesied greatness. He achieved a career-best top eight finish in GSL Code S, followed by an even better top four finish in the SSL (barely losing 3-4 to ByuL in the semifinals). When Legacy of the Void was released in 2016, TY took things to the next level. After failing to ever reach the finals of a major event in his career, TY finally broke through in the very first Season of Code S to be played in Legacy of the Void. TY entered the finals that season on a ten game win streak, and was only stopped by an even hotter Zest (who had put up a 18-1 map score in Code A/S). The dam had already broken, however, and championships were soon to come.

In the main event of World Electronic Sports Games 2016 (actually played in January of 2017), TY finally went all the way. With a dramatic 4-3 win over Maru in the grand finals, TY claimed the enormous $200,000 first place prize and won his first ever major title. Combined with additional wins over Maru, Rogue, soO, and INnoVation in the WESG qualifiers, TY had clearly ascended to a new level.

With the WESG title in hand, TY hit the jackpot again at the IEM World Championship held two months later. TY flattered to deceive during the RO24, and narrowly dodged elimination with a 3-2 record. However, he came alive in the playoffs, taking down Zest, GuMiho (who in the near future would win Code S), and aLive on his way to the finals. Even Stats' vaunted defense couldn't stop TY's date with destiny, and a two base Tank push in game seven sealed TY's second world championship win.

TY even made a world championship triple-crown seem like a possibility at BlizzCon, up until the point he went up 2-0 against Rogue in the semifinals. However, StarCraft II's ultimate big-match player pulled off the reverse sweep, and forced TY to 'settle' for 1st/1st/4th in world championship tournaments that year.

[image loading]

Unimpressed at winning $100,000 because he already won $200,00 back at WESG?

Despite these impressive showings in world championship events, a Korean Individual League championship (Code S, OSL, SSL) did not come easily to TY. After his runner-up finish to Zest in 2016, his second Code S title shot came over two years later in Season 3 of 2018. This time, he was facing off against Maru—who was on the verge of making history by winning Code S for the third consecutive season. TY looked like he might bring the streak to an end when he took a 2-0 lead, but the invincible, 2018 version of Maru wouldn't be denied and won in a 4-3 comeback victory.

After that, TY would have to wait even longer to get another chance to win a Code S championship. Still, even without a Korean Individual League title, TY maintained a very high level of consistency through the years, constantly achieving high finishes in both domestic and international events. However, he was slowly becoming in danger of becoming remembered as somewhat of a one-hit wonder, a player who would never again reach his early 2017 peak (he also acquired an ignominious reputation as a player who frequently gave up reverse-sweeps).

TY refused such an ignominious fate, and made 2020 his year of triumph. He began the first season of Code S in 2020 in typical fashion, easily advancing to the RO8 as his years of steady play had led us to expect. After sweeping Dark in the RO8, TY faced a surprising RO4 opponent in the form of PartinG. The Big Boy had caused the upset of the tournament in the previous round by defeating Maru, but whatever worked so well against Maru was ineffective against TY. TY went up 3-0 to start, and after surviving a spirited comeback and reverse-sweep scare from PartinG, he took a 4-2 victory after a late-game masterclass in game six.

TY had the misfortune of facing off against prime Zest and Maru in his first two Code S finals appearances, but the third time was the charm as he got to face a first-time GSL finalist in Cure. The experience mismatch was apparent in the finals, and TY took the 4-0 sweep to finally win the Korean major title to put a capstone on his career.

Can you put a capstone on a capstone? Because TY wasn't done just yet. Like his world championships, his Code S titles came in pairs. He failed to defend his title in the very next season, but he still came up with an excellent result by finishing in the top four (losing to Stats in the semis). Then, in Season 3, TY struck gold again.

[image loading]

TY attended the very first LotV major at DreamHack Winter 2015.

TY breezed through the group stage once more, and continued to show impressive play by sweeping both DongRaeGu and Stats in the first two rounds of the playoffs. His finals opponent would be none other than his old nemesis Maru. TY had defeated Maru for the WESG grand prize in 2017, but Maru had won their Code S finals duel in 2018—this would be the rubber match.

There were some extra stakes beyond the Code S title. Maru had previously defeated TY on his way to Code S championship number three, and this time he was playing for StarCraft II's version of the sword in the stone—the G5L trophy for five Code S championships. Many fans tuned in wondering if it would finally be Maru's coronation day, but instead, they saw him become the co-star in TY's most impressive finals performance yet.

The series between the two best TvT players in the world featured excellent play throughout, with a late-game thriller on Deathaura and a crazy basetrade on Golden Wall being the highlights. However, in the end, TY left no doubt as to who was the better player on the day, clinching the 4-2 victory. Three years after he went 1st/1st/4th in world championships, TY repeated the feat in the GSL and recorded one of the most successful years ever in domestic competition.

One quirk about these championships is the fact that TY was one of the GSL's official casters at the time. While the two-days-a-week gig probably wasn't an enormous distraction for TY, it's still noteworthy that he's the only player to ever commentate and win GSL in the same season.

The rest of TY’s 2020 and 2021 campaigns were dotted with quarter and semifinal appearances, reaffirming his all around solidity. However, we would not get a chance to see if TY could reenter the championship picture. He began his military service in mid-2021, departing from the scene while he was still close to the top of his game.

That wasn't the end of TY's progamer journey, but it was the end of his time as a top-tier player. He returned from military service in 2023, but the rust has been very apparent in his gameplay. Still, he gave us one of the more notable 'class is eternal' moments, reaching the top eight of Code S Season 2 2023 in a performance that seemed to surprise even himself.

In any case, TY doesn't need to add to his resume to affirm himself as one of the best players ever in StarCraft II. He may have been a late bloomer, but he made the wait well worth it by achieving enormous success on both the international and domestic stages.

The Tools: Strategy and Mind Games

As one might expect for a Terran who was scouted to a pro-team as a teenager, TY possessed tremendous mechanical talent. It's a testament to his strategic brilliance that his mechanics are perhaps the second or third point fans bring up when they talk about his strengths.

TY was a master of build order mindgames, constantly trying to find an edge by researching and out-planning his opponents. And, while he did have some of that 'if I just play my perfect macro game I'll win' mentality that nearly all elite players possess, he was also fantastic at adapting and changing his gameplan depending on his opponents' play. Having such a deep strategic bag made him equally adept with mech or bio, and with all-ins or macro, making him one of the most versatile Terran players ever.

TY also took series planning to a new level, which was especially highlighted in his two Code S championship runs. He was keen to abuse every inch of terrain on a specific map, and could alter his approach wildly depending on the opponent. Additionally, TY was incredible at roping his opponents into the game state he had intended—'macro against weaker players and cheese stronger players' is much easier said than done, but TY pulled off this kind of gameplan exceptionally well.

The Numbers: World Championship Peak + Domestic Durability

World championship-tierᵃ tournament winners
2011 to present

[image loading]

a: While there is no firm formula for determining a world championship-tier event, both prize money and strength of field are taken into consideration.
b: WESG tournaments are assigned to the year the grand finals was actually played, not the official date on the tournament title (which is one year early).
c: The 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2016 IEM world championships were of lesser scale compared to other iterations.
d: Player was later banned for match-fixing in unrelated tournaments. ESL still recognizes YoDa as the 2013 winner; Blizzard stripped Life of his title.


World championships play a huge part in deciding a players' legacy, and TY was one of the most successful players ever in this regard. Only sOs and Rogue stand above TY with three world championship-tier tournament wins, while Reynor and Serral are the only other players who can match TY's two victories in these outsized events.

Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) finishes
Start of 2016 to July 2021 (TY's military enlistment)

[image loading]


a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format
b: The Code S opening round was the RO32 during 2016-2019, RO24 in 2020, and RO16 in 2021. Thus, RO16 finishes in 2021 are counted as "Opening Round" finishes. Also, the 2020 season of Code S gave the previous season's top four players direct seeds into the RO16.
c: Includes one RO16 finish in Code S 2021.


While winning big money at world championships is certainly eye-catching, TY's success in domestic competition is an equally important part of his career resume. Starting in Legacy of the Void and up to his first 'retirement' due to military service, TY won two Code S championships and achieved an RO8 or higher finish in 13 of the 17 seasons in which he participated. This 76%+ RO8 attainment rate in Code S represents tremendous stability even when compared to the very best of TY's contemporaries.

In the same time frame, Stats made it to the quarterfinals or higher in 9 of 18 attempts (40%). Dark did so in 10 out of 19 seasons (53%). The infamously inconsistent Rogue only went to the RO8 or higher in 8 out of 17 seasons (47%). Even Maru, who won four Code S titles during this time, was 10 for 17 when it came to reaching the RO8 or higher (58%).

Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) win-loss records
Start of 2016 to July 2021 (TY's military enlistment)

[image loading]

a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format
b: SSL 2016 Season 1 was held in a double-elimination bracket format
c: The starting number of players in Code S was 32 during 2016-2019, 28 in 2020, and 16 in 2021


TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.

TY owes a lot of his domestic success to his mastery in TvT. Not only was it the match-up in which he won his two Code S finals, but he actually has the highest career TvT map win-rate in Code S history at 72.2%. To put that into perspective, the only player who comes close is Mvp at 67.2%, and his career ended just as TY's was getting started.

Selected head-to-head statistics (offline + online)
Start of 2016 to July 2021 (TY's military enlistment)

[image loading]

Another notch in TY's belt is his strong head-to-head record against his peers during his prime. Other than Dark, TY often got the better of the best players of his era, and in some cases he dominated them. He had significant head-to-head advantages against INnoVation, Stats, and Rogue, while also holding a slight edge over Maru.

As TY's career really took off in 2017 after the end of Proleague, his teamleague statistics are not a meaningful part of his GOAT list case. During his time on KT Rolster, TY was a solid but not notably strong Proleague competitor.

The Placement

TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).

However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.

The Games

Games were selected primarily based on how well they represented a players' style, not entertainment value.

TY vs herO: 2014 Proleague Round 1 - KT Rolster vs CJ Entus (December 30, 2013)



TY gained his reputation as a strategic genius in the latter portion of his career, but he was already making intriguing, intelligent plays earlier on.

Those who remember Yeonsu will remember it as the designated Blink-Stalker all-in map in PvT, with games frequently decided by how well the Terran defended. In this particular game, TY went for the peculiar choice of investing in a very early Sensor Tower, even getting it before his Factory. As a result, TY's infantry was able to parry herO's Stalkers as they probed for an entry angle, and it ultimately led to TY winning after a successful defense.

Now, TY may have been able to hold the attack off anyway, and it's not like fast Sensor Towers became the meta build after this. Still, in this case, it's the intent that counts. Faced with a predictable problem, TY came with an out-of-the-box solution that helped him get the win on that day.

TY vs aLive: 2016 Proleague Round 1 - KT Rolster vs Afreeca Freecs (February 23, 2016)



Tankivacs were one of the most polarizing new changes in the release version of Legacy of the Void, but they did make for some interesting games in the best-case scenarios. TY and aLive showed us exactly how dynamic Tankivacs could be in this game-of-the-year worthy showdown.

The players were started by being active in the early game, but once Tankivacs came into play, the intensity ratcheted up several levels. The action-packed game eventually turned into a dramatic basetrade, with both players scrambling to adapt to the rapidly changing battlefield. In the end, TY proved to be just a bit faster in terms of both decision making and hand speed, and narrowly eked out the win.

TY vs Serral: 2020 War Chest Team League - (August 2, 2020)



What happens when the smartest player in the world plays against the best player at scouting in StarCraft II history? A 2/1/1 into double-Starport Battlecruiser, apparently.

TY started off this game normally enough with a 2/1/1, but after Serral got a scout of his base, TY made a wild pivot and into 2 Starport BC's. Serral seemed to sense something was awry, but TY successfully kept him in the Dark by denying further scouting. By the time the Finnish Zerg managed to force an Overseer into the Terrain main, it was already too late. Serral had only five Queens and not a spore to speak of when TY's Battlecruisers teleported across the map, and he conceded defeat after his Roach-Ling counterattack failed to even up the game.



Mizenhauer's Greatest of All Time List

Introduction

#10: Rain – #9: TY – #8: sOs – #7: soO – #6: Zest

#5: INnoVation – #4: Mvp – #3: Rogue – #2: Serral – #1: Maru




Credits and acknowledgements

Written by: Mizenhauer
Editors: CosmicSpiral, Wax
Statistics and records: Aligulac.com and Liquipedia
Images and Photos: Patrick Strack (via ESL), Helena Kristiansson (via ESL), Benjamin Cotton (via DreamHack)

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Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13974 Posts
January 17 2024 17:03 GMT
#2
DRG mentioned
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33387 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 17:18:00
January 17 2024 17:09 GMT
#3
WESG is definitely one of the more difficult tournaments to rate, because the actual main event itself had an extremely weak field of players due to the 'Olympic'-style roster construction.

At the same time, the first place prize money was absolutely insane—WESG 2016's (played in 2017) $200,000 prize was the biggest first place prize in SC2 history up to that point, and it actually equaled BlizzCon that year (2017 was the year when Blizzard doubled the Blizzcon prize money).

I know the 'value' of prize money is something fans disagree on a lot, and we have the luxury of saying prestige is more important than money sometimes. But for most players, money is a huge factor in how they prioritize events, and I have no problem rating WESG as one of the biggest tournament series ever when evaluating player accomplishments.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
January 17 2024 17:24 GMT
#4
Great read but I have to disagree hard with the rankings here.
This means that both Rain and TY rank above two of Maru, Serral, Rogue, Inno, Zest, Stats, Dark, sOs, Mvp, Life and I don't see that for any of them.
Maybe sOs because Mizenhauer doesn't rank world championships that highly and Life got excluded from the list?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12873 Posts
January 17 2024 17:46 GMT
#5
If WESG is counted as World Championships, I don’t see how Maru won’t be #1 on this list. However as pointed out by Charoisaur, some players won’t make it despite having potentially more arguments than Rain or TY
Interesting either way
WriterMaru
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33387 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 18:06:59
January 17 2024 17:57 GMT
#6
On January 18 2024 02:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Great read but I have to disagree hard with the rankings here.
This means that both Rain and TY rank above two of Maru, Serral, Rogue, Inno, Zest, Stats, Dark, sOs, Mvp, Life and I don't see that for any of them.
Maybe sOs because Mizenhauer doesn't rank world championships that highly and Life got excluded from the list?


Life isn't on the list for obv reasons

But even if he was in consideration, I don't think he deserves top 10 on any accomplishment-based list with his resume (it's been superseded by a lot of players because they got to keep playing after he got banned for life, lol). The hypothetical Life case is very much the "he felt like the best player" vibes that ppl have applied to Mvp/Maru/Serral/INno at various points in their careers.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 18:27:39
January 17 2024 18:13 GMT
#7
TY!! His play ranks among the least clean of the greats, but his deep understanding of the game always carries him through.

I'll volunteer a second SPL2014 game, his snipe of Soulkey using the OP rocks on Yeonsu
. Or maybe a third, the G6 of SPL finals vs Classic
(though this was really more memorable for the hype than the gameplay). TY just always knew exactly what to play for, and was willing to play as ugly as necessary to achieve that condition, and it was inspiring on its best days.

Edit: I have to say, being allowed to cut the timeframe and the criteria makes the statistics feel just the slightest bit arbitrary. But in the name of hype, I suspend my disbelief

It's also really interesting that TY did so much better vs Rogue (62% match WR) than vs Dark (29% match WR); that's such a huge difference for a single MU for two similar-caliber zergs. Granted, they have polar opposite playstyles in ZvT, and I feel like this has got to be up there as one of the best illustrations of stylistic differences in matchups, i.e. that TY's TvZ matches up 35% better vs Rogue's style of ZvT than Dark's style of ZvT, a crazy margin
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 17 2024 18:47 GMT
#8
Crazy thing with TY is he was such a fantastic tactical lategame player for so many years that no one criticised him at all when he finally won two GSLs in 2020 by cheesing or doing incredibly abusive timings every game. Any other player doing that would have caused outrage (like when Rogue wins trophies doing 12 pools or nydus all-in every match)

Maybe him becoming a caster that same year and hence dedicating more time to analysing all the opponents helped him figure out weak points in their builds.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1868 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-18 14:05:14
January 17 2024 19:13 GMT
#9
The feedback to these has already been fascinating! It seems like the Serral advocates lean more towards statistics (WINNING RECORD VS EVERYONE!) whereas the "Korean Elitists" are leaning on pure trophy count and the prestige of Code S (THE GUY WON X NUMBER OF TIMES!).

A lot of my methodology was ported over from numerous GOAT lists I've admired that dealt with traditional sports and, as such, it makes sense that I value statistics like win rate or the number of times reaching a specific stage of an event) There are hundreds of examples of hall of famers and icons in every sport who never won on the highest level, but their statistical resume is unimpeachable. Even Lebron James, who at this point is top 2 GOAT without doubt, leans less on championships (Jordan has him beat) or MVPs (Kareem gets him here) and more on the fact that he has already scored the most points in history and continues to set longevity records that are frankly unprecedented.

Anyway, back to the StarCraft!

"Greatest" (in the context of a GOAT list) is a really vague and subjective term, but I think everyone can agree there's a certain je ne sais quoi about being "The Greatest" or "One of the Greatest". To me, TY having what I consider to be the is the single best matchup of any player in the history of Code S (the same tournament that a lot of people say is THE BEST and THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS). TY guy won 7 out of 10 TvT's he played during an era in which players like ByuN, INnoVation, Maru, aLive, Bunny, Cure and GuMiho (that's 13 combined Code S wins btw) ranged from good to very good and even great.

It may not be a trophy he can put in his cabinet but, if you ask me, that is one of the best examples of greatness that you will ever see in StarCraft II.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2103 Posts
January 17 2024 19:13 GMT
#10
This guy casted GSL for 2-3 years, while competing, and won 2 GSLs one of those years. You gotta respect that!
Locutus_
Profile Joined August 2023
Brazil65 Posts
January 17 2024 19:53 GMT
#11
On January 18 2024 04:13 Blargh wrote:
This guy casted GSL for 2-3 years, while competing, and won 2 GSLs one of those years. You gotta respect that!


What a boss
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1868 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 20:01:52
January 17 2024 20:01 GMT
#12
On January 18 2024 03:13 yubo56 wrote:
TY!! His play ranks among the least clean of the greats, but his deep understanding of the game always carries him through.

I'll volunteer a second SPL2014 game, his snipe of Soulkey using the OP rocks on Yeonsu https://youtu.be/pcFLB6o61VY?t=588 . Or maybe a third, the G6 of SPL finals vs Classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1fnEPfifsQ (though this was really more memorable for the hype than the gameplay). TY just always knew exactly what to play for, and was willing to play as ugly as necessary to achieve that condition, and it was inspiring on its best days.

Edit: I have to say, being allowed to cut the timeframe and the criteria makes the statistics feel just the slightest bit arbitrary. But in the name of hype, I suspend my disbelief

It's also really interesting that TY did so much better vs Rogue (62% match WR) than vs Dark (29% match WR); that's such a huge difference for a single MU for two similar-caliber zergs. Granted, they have polar opposite playstyles in ZvT, and I feel like this has got to be up there as one of the best illustrations of stylistic differences in matchups, i.e. that TY's TvZ matches up 35% better vs Rogue's style of ZvT than Dark's style of ZvT, a crazy margin


A few players like Dark have gained on TY when it comes to overall win rate over the past few years, but even then they haven't surpassed him. TY's record is so good that anything but winning or making the finals of Code S actively works against you when it comes to reaching his win rates.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
darklycid
Profile Joined May 2014
3510 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 20:15:41
January 17 2024 20:13 GMT
#13
Btw if we wanna make asteriks for serral for his wins being in zerg favored moments does ty get an asterisk for his 2 biggest wins being in 2017, which was a pretty terran favored year?
weyoun
Profile Joined January 2024
4 Posts
January 17 2024 20:29 GMT
#14
Combining two lists sc1/sc2 is an impossible task
you cant mix broodwar and sc2 in 1 list , every possible result is just a pointless mess

but if i was forced to do it

flash/serral s tier
jaedong/bisu/maru a tier

than you have only 5 spots left how can ty in it when you have terrans left like nada/mvp/boxer/iloveoov
at least 3 of those 4 i would put higher than ty
but than if you put ty in a top ten list there is no space left for players like

protoss like nalra/garimto/stork
zergs like savior/july/yellow/dark/rogue
+ some more players i have missed out

ty cant be higher than all of those ty cant be in any top ten list


Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4937 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 20:40:02
January 17 2024 20:39 GMT
#15
On January 18 2024 05:29 weyoun wrote:
Combining two lists sc1/sc2 is an impossible task
you cant mix broodwar and sc2 in 1 list , every possible result is just a pointless mess

but if i was forced to do it

flash/serral s tier
jaedong/bisu/maru a tier

than you have only 5 spots left how can ty in it when you have terrans left like nada/mvp/boxer/iloveoov
at least 3 of those 4 i would put higher than ty
but than if you put ty in a top ten list there is no space left for players like

protoss like nalra/garimto/stork
zergs like savior/july/yellow/dark/rogue
+ some more players i have missed out

ty cant be higher than all of those ty cant be in any top ten list




I am really happy no one is forcing you to do it, cuz that list is not so good
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1237 Posts
January 17 2024 21:52 GMT
#16
I'd personally put TY barely outside the top 10, but I also value soO's 2nd places more highly than most. Curious to see if soO makes this list or not, but I'm guessing he doesn't.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
rwala
Profile Joined December 2019
297 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 22:32:17
January 17 2024 22:25 GMT
#17
On January 18 2024 04:13 Mizenhauer wrote:
The feedback to these has already been fascinating! It seems like the Serral advocates lean more towards statistics (WINNING RECORD VS EVERYONE!) whereas the "Korean Elitists" are leaning on pure trophy count and the prestige of Code S (THE GUY WON X NUMBER OF TIMES!).

A lot of my methodology was ported over from numerous GOAT lists I've admired that dealt with physical sports and, as such, it makes sense that I value statistics like win rate or the number of times reaching a specific stage of an event) There are hundreds of examples of hall of famers and icons in every sport who never won on the highest level, but their statistical resume is unimpeachable. Even Lebron James, who at this point is top 2 GOAT without doubt, leans less on championships (Jordan has him beat) or MVPs (Kareem gets him here) and more on the fact that he has already scored the most points in history and continues to set longevity records that are frankly unprecedented.

Anyway, back to the StarCraft!

"Greatest" (in the context of a GOAT list) is a really vague and subjective term, but I think everyone can agree there's a certain je ne sais quoi about being "The Greatest" or "One of the Greatest". To me, TY having what i consider to be the is the single best matchup of any player in the history of Code S (the same tournament that a lot of people say is THE BEST and THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS). TY guy won 7 out of 10 TvT's he played during an era in which players like ByuN, INnoVation, Maru, aLive, Bunny, Cure and GuMiho (that's 13 combined Code S wins btw) ranged from good to very good and even great.

It may not be a trophy he can put in his cabinet but, if you ask me, that is one of the best examples of greatness that you will ever see in StarCraft II.


Speaking as someone who would probably be accused of being a "Korean Elitist", it's less about the "prestige" of GSL for me, and more about my subjective assessment as to how dang hard it is to actually win a GSL...certainly compared to other regional finals, but even compared to many world championship-tier events. The basic logic here is that often the "worst" players in GSL can take out championship-tier players on their good days with sufficient prep, so it was and still is not that uncommon for championship-tier players to fall out early. Which is why you'd have these weird ESL/WCS finals that wouldn't even include players like Rogue, Dark, Maru, etc.

Tournament format also plays a role here, in that a lot of the other tourneys if they had group stages at all would have these large format group stages that allow for more of an opportunity to smooth out variance. For example, the Gamers8 swiss-style group stage format allowed for qualification to playoffs with up to 2 match losses (in fact every player that had 2 losses made it to the playoffs). And Oliveira had 3 losses in last year's IEM Katowice group stages! Blizzcon had a similar 4-player group stage format in which you were done if you lost twice in the group stages, but in most GSLs you had to survive two of these group stages with in my opinion an overall higher caliber of competition in both the group stages and playoffs.

I think in the last couple of years you could argue that the dynamics have shifted with the emergence of Clem and MaxPax as true global champion-tier players, but before that GSL felt to me like the hardest tournament to win, even without Reynor and Serral. Or at least the hardest tournament to make a deep run in, that's probably the better way to put it.
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
January 17 2024 22:27 GMT
#18
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.

In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
rwala
Profile Joined December 2019
297 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 22:40:38
January 17 2024 22:39 GMT
#19
On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.

In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot.


I think you're right! I'm guessing SOS or Hero (CJ). Hero was crushing some of the early IEMs and also Proleague and has the interesting post-military peak, and SOS also crushed Proleague and has GSL, the 2 world championships, etc.
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1868 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-01-17 22:45:16
January 17 2024 22:43 GMT
#20
On January 18 2024 07:39 rwala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.

In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot.


I think you're right! I'm guessing SOS or Hero (CJ). Hero was crushing some of the early IEMs and also Proleague and has the interesting post-military peak, and SOS also crushed Proleague and has GSL, the 2 world championships, etc.


re: sOs, he has zero gsl wins (he made the finals twice), but you missed out on one of his wc's, He won WCS in 2013, IEM in 2014 and WCS again in 2015.
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