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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On June 05 2024 03:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Really it's Maru's 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th GSLs that he won after Rogue left for the military, that seem to be putting him above Rogue in people's eyes.
Before Rogue left for the military, consensus had shifted towards Rogue > Maru (especially because of recency bias, but still). Once he left, of course Maru was free to win GSLs uncontested... it was an easier field without Rogue to stop him.
If you put Maru above Rogue just because of GSL win #5-8, you need to really consider it again.
Serral wins the biggest international events, including both GSL events he entered.
Rogue has also won some of the biggest international events, and also has dominated the GSL scene.
Maru has dominated the GSL scene similar to Rogue, but also Proleague (but that's a team competition).
Maru racking up additional GSLs after Rogue left has a huge asterisk because the one who had his number was forced to leave.
I’d say broadly those who put Maru’s case go for a combo of him being amongst the top tier of players for so long, and his sheer level of play and skill. Plus other caveats such as him still placing deep when literally no other Terran was doing much.
Their vote as it were hasn’t really changed, and if that’s what their weight was, it’s unlikely to change. Nobody can conceivably come along and replicate Maru’s career over a sufficient span at this point
Likewise I’d probably narrowly go with Serral, but that was the case for me even before Katowice. His insane record in 2023/24 is really just building that gap, as I value the kind of consistency and periods of wider dominance that he’s shown for years now.
I’m not sure how much movement we can get with how folks weight relative cases. Maru’s got his Starleagues and can’t be caught realistically, Serral doesn’t look like anyone can match him in consistent level.
Maybe Maru gets the WC monkey off his back, but those who rate him #1 do it without it, and those who don’t aren’t likely to be swayed across by him ‘merely’ winning one
I think it makes for interesting discussions but it does attest to how much the scene has changed that we’re kind of indulging in comparing quite different claims, and I don’t think many are all that liable to change now! Perhaps I may be wrong on that though
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On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote:
Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
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On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote:
but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Yes, actually. During around 2019-2021 or so, there was a period where Serral wasn't winning a ton ton yet, and it was mainly riding off of his insane 2018-2019 year. Many of the KRs went on record saying they think Rogue is a better Zerg better than Serral. Rogue was considered by many the best player around 2021-2022, and especially when he won his 4th GSL denying Maru another time, right before retiring.
Of course, with time that changed, and now KRs unanimously say Serral is the best player. But there was that time when Rogue was peaking that many did consider him the best player. He consistently denied Maru GSL/Supers, and he made most of them look easy, in much the way Serral does now. Rogue also put up competitive series vs Serral when they met.
So, it was much less clear back then who was the best player, and there was enough room for imagination to fill the gaps.
Also, i wanna give credit to Artosis for bringing Rogue back into the discussion, because I do think he unfairly gets overlooked in the GOAT discussion. I do agree with Artosis's distinction between the Greatest player of all time and Best player currently or Best player of all time.
I think an example that many might agree with, is if you imagine sOs won a 4th and 5th world championship, then some people may consider him the GOAT for pulling off magic. We all know he's not the best player, he doesn't have the highest winrates, he doesn't have a GSL win, his macro play is pretty weak, etc. etc. But if he DID accomplish an insanely amazing feat as winning 5 world championships, that would inspire that sense of wonder and greatness that I think is an integral part of the "Greatest" of all time. Very similar to how Fruitdealer winning the first GSL despite the odds, even if it is just 1 GSL tournament, awards him a lot of greatness that other players winning 1 GSL didn't get.
Anyway, I think Serral has firmly put himself as the best player of all time in SC2. And now, I think it would be really cool if Rogue and Maru start to put up a better fight and start contesting that again to try to be seen as the best player even if just for 1 tournament or a few months. It'd make the storylines and stakes very compelling.
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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On June 05 2024 09:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote:
but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ? Yes, actually. During around 2019-2021 or so, there was a period where Serral wasn't winning a ton ton yet, and it was mainly riding off of his insane 2018-2019 year. Many of the KRs went on record saying they think Rogue is a better Zerg better than Serral. Rogue was considered by many the best player around 2021-2022, and especially when he won his 4th GSL denying Maru another time, right before retiring. Of course, with time that changed, and now KRs unanimously say Serral is the best player. But there was that time when Rogue was peaking that many did consider him the best player. He consistently denied Maru GSL/Supers, and he made most of them look easy, in much the way Serral does now. Rogue also put up competitive series vs Serral when they met. So, it was much less clear back then who was the best player, and there was enough room for imagination to fill the gaps. Also, i wanna give credit to Artosis for bringing Rogue back into the discussion, because I do think he unfairly gets overlooked in the GOAT discussion. I do agree with Artosis's distinction between the Greatest player of all time and Best player currently or Best player of all time. I think an example that many might agree with, is if you imagine sOs won a 4th and 5th world championship, then some people may consider him the GOAT for pulling off magic. We all know he's not the best player, he doesn't have the highest winrates, he doesn't have a GSL win, his macro play is pretty weak, etc. etc. But if he DID accomplish an insanely amazing feat as winning 5 world championships, that would inspire that sense of wonder and greatness that I think is an integral part of the "Greatest" of all time. Very similar to how Fruitdealer winning the first GSL despite the odds, even if it is just 1 GSL tournament, awards him a lot of greatness that other players winning 1 GSL didn't get. Anyway, I think Serral has firmly put himself as the best player of all time in SC2. And now, I think it would be really cool if Rogue and Maru start to put up a better fight and start contesting that again to try to be seen as the best player even if just for 1 tournament or a few months. It'd make the storylines and stakes very compelling.
Serral kind of suffers a bit for being so damn good He doesn’t really have some defining other characteristic to augment his story, he’s just really fucking good.
Latter day Mvp was making borderline miraculous runs against the new stars with a half broken body, sOs would seize the day at a big, big tournament. And Rogue could bomb out of GSL but you knew he’d deliver come a Blizzcon. Plus his Bo7 record and you’ve got maybe THE clutch player when it really counts.
Of course on the flipside, there’s nothing more clutch ultimately than rarely losing early in tournaments, but I think resolute consistency rather counter-intuitively can diminish the ‘greatness’ factor (which I do think is super important as well, as intangible as it can be)
Makes the discussion fun factoring all that craic in!
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88 (81.12%) in games and 153–14 (91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
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On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote:
Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ?
Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved (triple world champions, code s titles) would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017 because the bias starts from that moment.
I blamed the casters bias always highlighting and pitching "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he definitely traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and Serral consistently was placed in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final no matter what, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene.
I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career.
I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022.
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On June 05 2024 16:27 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote:On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote:
Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ? Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017.. The bias starts from 2017. I blamed the casters bias always highlighting "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he always traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and consistently put Serral in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene. I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career. I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022.
Starts with "Clearly some bias from Serral's fans" and ends with a signature "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" and in the middle some rambling about how it's Serrals fault the way the brackets work and if Serral would face Maru earlier in a tournament surely Maru would win but in a final it's clear that Serral would win...
Yeah dude, you got it all figured out
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On June 05 2024 17:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 16:27 swarminfestor wrote:On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote:On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote:
Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ? Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017.. The bias starts from 2017. I blamed the casters bias always highlighting "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he always traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and consistently put Serral in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene. I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career. I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022. Starts with "Clearly some bias from Serral's fans" and ends with a signature "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" and in the middle some rambling about how it's Serrals fault the way the brackets work and if Serral would face Maru earlier in a tournament surely Maru would win but in a final it's clear that Serral would win... Yeah dude, you got it all figured out
Thanks for the compliment though. ENCE rules.
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On June 05 2024 10:55 WombaT wrote:
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88 (81.12%) in games and 153–14 (91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible.
The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
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On June 05 2024 17:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 10:55 WombaT wrote:
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88 (81.12%) in games and 153–14 (91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years.
Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans...
2018: 85,71%
2019: 76,67%
2020: 85,71%
2021: 70,31%
2022: 73,68%
2023: 85,11%
I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school.
Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous.
He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past).
I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts.
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On June 05 2024 19:37 PremoBeats wrote:
Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans...
2018: 85,71%
2019: 76,67%
2020: 85,71%
2021: 70,31%
2022: 73,68%
2023: 85,11%
I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school.
Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous.
He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past).
I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts.
Yeah, this to me is the strongest point towards Serial being GOAT. He simply is the best player to ever touch the game.
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The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
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On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote:
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again:
The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed.
Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep.
Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
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On June 06 2024 00:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote:
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
But most of Maru's individual victories have come since 2018, haven't they? He didn't even win GSL in 2020,2021
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On June 06 2024 00:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote:
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive.
Serral's name simply wasn't on the GOAT debate list 2018, because people assumed he'd be gone after 1 or 2 years... he won 7 Premier Tournaments that year, 3 of which were with top Korean participation.
If 2018 was a year where competition was still deep, Serral played against these top dogs too. As a matter of fact, 2018 is one of the 3 years, where Serral had an over 85% match win rate versus top Koreans (the majority of pros doesn't even reach 70%, except for a handful over the years... Maru had 67,69% in 2018 as a comparison).
And only because Serral's name came into the GOAT debate 2022, doesn't mean that he didn't have achievements before that.
Fact is, Maru won most of his tournaments (except two) 2018 and later, same as Serral.
I really wonder, if Serral and Maru keep going at the same rate (Serral having much better win rates, more won tournaments and better records against individual players) in 20 years will be like: Yeah, both are amazing, but Maru has 2 more PT wins pre-2018, lol. At one point, dominance needs to outclass a couple of more active years, where the respected player didn't really win all that much.
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On June 05 2024 17:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 16:27 swarminfestor wrote:On June 05 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote:On June 05 2024 04:04 WombaT wrote:
Rogue also won very little until the ‘weaker’ era
It feels arguments go a bit all over the place. Maru outdid Rogue for years and years in Korea, won 2 Starleagues and was a consistent high finisher in other tournaments, and Proleague top dog.
Since the ‘Serral era’ he still was doing better than Rogue in Starleagues, who was equivalent with Serral in WCs and not winning as much or consistently as Serral elsewhere
To stick Rogue at top you have to take a guy who others outperformed for years, who had another couple match or better him for years in another epoch and make him number 1
Which really doesn’t make much sense to me at all
Now we are also moving to the Rogue vs. Maru/Serral, since Maru vs. Serral has flattened out a bit :p. I dont know how would you put Rogue above number 3 on this list however. He is a very good player and been excellent in big tournaments, but has anybody ever really thought that he was the best player in the world ? And what areas does he excel if you compare him to other two candidates ? Clearly some bias from Serral's fans since he won his first WC title in 2018. Even after Serral's win in 2018, Rogue's far achievements in Katowice & WC consecutively before have been undervalued in such extent that Serral's win in 2018 was claimed to be much more impressive. Not just Rogue, but Soo's win and Dark's wins also has been under looked in favor of rising foreigner giant. During these years, Maru has won multiple week-to-week preparation, Code S titles and Rogue then focused more on winning Code S titles which made him the biggest rival Maru in the local scene starting from 2018 up till 2022. But similarly as Artosis argued, whatever Rogue's achieved would not been appreciated by the vast majority of Sc2 community as much I can remember actively participating since 2017.. The bias starts from 2017. I blamed the casters bias always highlighting "Serral, Serral, the Goat" since 2018 and always pitting him against Maru who we knew find it hard to get any premier title outside of Asia region. Also, the bracket luck works in much favor for Serral rather than Maru, Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Clem in big offline tournaments (always put Serral against player who he always traded better prior to the final at the time, hence we saw him coincidentally losing to player like Shin, Zest and Soo who supposedly didn't fair him well prior to tournament at that time) and consistently put Serral in the bracket that will make him facing Maru in the final, but never much in semifinal or Ro.8 which seemed the things that I won't bother to argue, make much worst in my judgement. Up till then, the GOAT conversation only focused on Maru and Serral in 2017-2022 while people like Rogue, Inno, Soo, Dark, Zest, sOs then have been unfairly left out from the conversation the most by the vast majority of fans who are new to the scene. I knew some will push the consistencies as the factor when compared with Rogue until Serral became a clear dominant figure since 2022 when Rogue was truly absence in the scene for almost two years. That's why when I compared between Maru and Serral in term of consistencies which the matter that Rogue can't fit well, taking Maru's proleague achievements in 2011-2016 made Maru fared better in the whole span career. I stick on opinion to put Maru and Rogue above him in GOAT ranking even after Serral's dominant results in 2022. Starts with "Clearly some bias from Serral's fans" and ends with a signature "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" and in the middle some rambling about how it's Serrals fault the way the brackets work and if Serral would face Maru earlier in a tournament surely Maru would win but in a final it's clear that Serral would win... Yeah dude, you got it all figured out
That person throws around the accusation of "bias" without any sense of self awareness. People like him aren't interested in what is real, but imposing their personal beliefs onto others. He does indeed have it all figured out—in his own little world.
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United States1874 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote:
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition
Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15.
The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion.
But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
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On June 05 2024 08:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 03:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Really it's Maru's 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th GSLs that he won after Rogue left for the military, that seem to be putting him above Rogue in people's eyes.
Before Rogue left for the military, consensus had shifted towards Rogue > Maru (especially because of recency bias, but still). Once he left, of course Maru was free to win GSLs uncontested... it was an easier field without Rogue to stop him.
If you put Maru above Rogue just because of GSL win #5-8, you need to really consider it again.
Serral wins the biggest international events, including both GSL events he entered.
Rogue has also won some of the biggest international events, and also has dominated the GSL scene.
Maru has dominated the GSL scene similar to Rogue, but also Proleague (but that's a team competition).
Maru racking up additional GSLs after Rogue left has a huge asterisk because the one who had his number was forced to leave.
I’d say broadly those who put Maru’s case go for a combo of him being amongst the top tier of players for so long, and his sheer level of play and skill. Plus other caveats such as him still placing deep when literally no other Terran was doing much. Their vote as it were hasn’t really changed, and if that’s what their weight was, it’s unlikely to change. Nobody can conceivably come along and replicate Maru’s career over a sufficient span at this point Likewise I’d probably narrowly go with Serral, but that was the case for me even before Katowice. His insane record in 2023/24 is really just building that gap, as I value the kind of consistency and periods of wider dominance that he’s shown for years now. I’m not sure how much movement we can get with how folks weight relative cases. Maru’s got his Starleagues and can’t be caught realistically, Serral doesn’t look like anyone can match him in consistent level. Maybe Maru gets the WC monkey off his back, but those who rate him #1 do it without it, and those who don’t aren’t likely to be swayed across by him ‘merely’ winning one I think it makes for interesting discussions but it does attest to how much the scene has changed that we’re kind of indulging in comparing quite different claims, and I don’t think many are all that liable to change now! Perhaps I may be wrong on that though
I like this analysis a lot because it highlights what imo are the reasons why these discussions can be fun but ultimately won't sway people one way or the other. I'm fine just saying maru, rogue, and serral are all beasts regardless of who in my subjective opinion is #1
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On June 05 2024 19:37 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 17:52 Ciaus237 wrote:On June 05 2024 10:55 WombaT wrote:
Also jaysus just checked and Serral is 378–88 (81.12%) in games and 153–14 (91.62%) in matches from January 1st 2023 to now, that’s mental! Even Maru, who’s almost gone a bit under the radar with how good his results have been this last 18 months is a full 14% off in match rate.
I think it's worth pointing out that for a long time it was something of a community consensus that such consistency in a game like SC2 was impossible. The number of times someone said something along the lines of "well SC2 is so volatile that we'll never see Flash-type domination" on this site is not small. And now we have 90% series winrate over more than a year - and winrates not far off that for the last handful of years. Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans... 2018: 85,71% 2019: 76,67% 2020: 85,71% 2021: 70,31% 2022: 73,68% 2023: 85,11% I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school. Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous. He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past). I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts.
Those stats are wild. Serral has been the favorite to win almost every tourney he's entered for the vast majority of nearly 7 years, or half the game's lifespan.
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On June 06 2024 00:44 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 00:19 Charoisaur wrote:On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote:
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition I've replied this multiple times already but here we go again: The competition getting weaker was a gradual process, not an abrupt one. It makes no sense to claim achievements in 2016 are worth 10/10 points and tournaments in 2017 2/10 when the difference in top players between the years barely changed. Fact is, Maru got into the Goat conversation after his 4-peat in 2018 when the competition was still very deep. Serral realistically came into the conversation after Katowice 2022, when tons of top players had already retired and the scene was much less competitive. Serral's name simply wasn't on the GOAT debate list 2018, because people assumed he'd be gone after 1 or 2 years... he won 7 Premier Tournaments that year, 3 of which were with top Korean participation. If 2018 was a year where competition was still deep, Serral played against these top dogs too. As a matter of fact, 2018 is one of the 3 years, where Serral had an over 85% match win rate versus top Koreans (the majority of pros doesn't even reach 70%, except for a handful over the years... Maru had 67,69% in 2018 as a comparison). And only because Serral's name came into the GOAT debate 2022, doesn't mean that he didn't have achievements before that. Fact is, Maru won most of his tournaments (except two) 2018 and later, same as Serral. I really wonder, if Serral and Maru keep going at the same rate (Serral having much better win rates, more won tournaments and better records against individual players) in 20 years will be like: Yeah, both are amazing, but Maru has 2 more PT wins pre-2018, lol. At one point, dominance needs to outclass a couple of more active years, where the respected player didn't really win all that much.
Yeah Serral's 2018 was amazing and impressive and all but they aren't enough to put him into Goat conversation.
For Serral to be a Goat contender he absolutely needs his results from 2022 onwards to be considered highly, Maru was already a Goat contender before that.0
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On June 06 2024 01:28 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 23:05 LukaMav wrote:
The mental gymnastic some posters are using as a coping method is quite funny
They like to discredit Serral accomplish since 2018, yet rogue and Maru pretty much did the same thing. They accomplished close to nothing prior to 2018.
Only difference is Serral era is from “2018-current”. Whereas Maru and rogue peak only lasted 2 years at best. In rogue case it’s a bit different, his peak depends on the tournament. Where as Maru was only winning GSL against weaker competition Your mental gymnastics are even more impressive. Rogue had won a world championship, two weekenders and was a pivotal part of a proleague championship team before 2018. Maru tied for the most KIL titles during Hots (2), was the best player in the world along with Life for half of 2015, had the greatest season in Proleague history during 2016 and finished 4,13 and 2 in the WCS Standings from 2013-15. The disgusting part of all this, is that people like you, and the people who stand opposite you with equally inflexible opinions, distract from what could be a nuanced, valuable discussion. But, hey, you don't actually want to discuss things. That would require doing some research and investing time into your shitty posts (not the same thing as shitposting) and you're not here to say intelligent things.
So disgusting yeah sure when the narrative being rogue won 3 wc and was dominating during "peak starcraft" when his first tourney win is from mid 2017
But no distortion of facts by the koreaboo of this forum sure 
For Maru I agree tho since 2013 the guy is amazing
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EPT
