|
United States1875 Posts
On March 30 2024 18:54 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 20:36 rwala wrote:On March 21 2024 01:08 PremoBeats wrote:
I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other).
- There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant.
- There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019)
- There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023)
- There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023).
- There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017.
- There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25)
- There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2
vs Dark: 8:5:1
vs GuMiho: 10:4:0
vs Solar: 16:7:1
vs Cure: 17:3:0
vs ByuN: 12:5:0
vs Classic: 8:2:0
vs Bunny: 9:2:0
vs stats: 9:4:0
vs soO: 8:4:0
vs Innovation: 16:8:0
vs Rogue: 8:6:0
vs Trap: 14:3:0
vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0
vs MaxPax: 18:4:0
vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else.
Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win.
The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds.
Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats.
BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”?
He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above).
Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons.
Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to.
That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all.
All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits.
Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe.
Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1
Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition."
As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect. Impressive analysis (seriously). And very much reads as something written by someone has has not been following Starcraft very long. I don’t mean that as a dig, it’s just that your analysis treats all eras of SC2 competition as equal. The simple fact is that Serral has not won in the most competitive tournaments and leagues, where hundreds of pro players were competing and even top pros struggled to make it out of the qualifiers and into the group stages. This is not Serral’s fault, and I very much believe if he had competed in that era, he would have been incredibly competitive, probably picked up a few titles along the way. But he didn’t, and alternative hypothetical histories are not so persuasive in these matters. I still think it’s totally legit to call him the GOAT, FWIW, because you can argue that his level of dominance and skill is so high as to compensate for the fact that all his victories came in a less competitive (but still quite competitive) era of SC2. But there is a reason guys like Rain and MVP made it into this top 10 list without having won a “world championship”, while guys like Dark and Reynor who have did not. You can surely disagree with the criteria, but based on the criteria, the picks make sense. Hmm, yes, the thing you bring up is very true. But if we truly assume that the competition in which Serral had his results is not as fierce, you neither can put Maru at #1, as he only has 2 Premier Tournaments wins before Serral became dominant. They mostly played in the same time period and Maru never won a World Championship in this supposedly "easier" era. This goes along some other inconsistencies in this ranking, for example longevity versus peak dominance. In MVP's article the author put him over Inno because MVP was more dominant during his prime (only one or max two years), and he values it over Inno's much longer and successful career. In Maru's article, he says that Maru is not as dominant as Serral but writes about his "otherworldly longevity". If you value peak over longevity, then Serral should definitely be above Maru. If you value longevity over peak, then there's no way MVP is above Innovation. Thus, my critique is not the criteria, but rather the consistency of applying the criteria. In making such a list, you have to be consistent. If Serral is devalued because of his successes in a much easier era, then Maru can't be GOAT either, as Serral was much more succesful in the same period.
If you want my in depth thoughts on this, read the following
Tipping points:
It’s worth quoting the INnoVation and Rogue articles and how both players were ranked relative to Mvp. INnoVation and Rogue had far longer careers than Mvp, but they represented an inflection point between long term success and excellence over a shorter period of time. This was a key point when comparing players to one another as all careers are different and came up in multiple situations (though INnoVation, Mvp and Rogue are the best examples as they ended up one after another after another in my rankings). As a general rule, I believe it’s just as important to address the shortcomings of a player's career as it is to give them credit for their achievements.
From Mvp article:
On this list, Mvp comes in one spot above #5 INnoVation largely due to the fact that the Machine didn't overshadow his contemporaries quite as severely. While I've asserted that INnoVation was the best player from 2013 to 2017, the articles for Zest, sOs, and Rain show that there were periods where they could have thrown their hats in the ring alongside him. Mvp is the first, and maybe only player on this list who ruled his era without any realistic challengers. His closest period rival was teammate Nestea who did equal him with three Code S titles, but fell behind severely in nearly all other criteria (non-Code S tournaments, peak win-rates, championship contention after 2011). So tight was Mvp's grip over early-WoL era competition that this writer finds it very tempting to deem Mvp the most dominant player to ever play StarCraft II.
From Rogue article:
Why Mvp got the nod over INnoVation for fourth place on this list largely came down to a single question—do the aggregate achievements from a long career outweigh short-term brilliance that defined an era? In the case of INnoVation, the answer was no. But when we ask the same question of Rogue, the balance comes out in the favor of extraordinary career accomplishments.
Rogue never dominated any era the way Mvp ruled over Wings of Liberty, but the fact is, no player ever did. However, from 2017-2022, Rogue won so many events that even the King of Wings would feel envious. In that time, Rogue won a combined seven Korean Individual Leagues (all Code S) and World Championship titles, which is a mark only surpassed by Maru. Rogue won the bulk of these trophies in a highly competitive period that saw players like Maru, Serral, TY, and Reynor enter their primes, while old-guard players like Zest, soO, INnoVation, Dark, Classic, and Stats proved they still had plenty of fight left in them. Only Rogue's final Code S title was won in a period where the Korean scene had entered noticeable contraction (in fact, one might even consider Rogue's retirement the demarcation line).
Though it never got into the articles, the phrase Longevity is a double edged sword,” was very important during my evaluation process. Players could be rewarded for having a long career, but they could also be devalued due to lengthy fallow periods (sOs is a solid example of this. He won more World Championships than soO, INnoVatioN and Zest, while also making the finals of Code S twice, but his lack of notable results after 2018 mitigated his early career success to a degree). Short term success (I tried to look for 3 year peaks at a minimum when available and, if possible, extended five year peaks as a general rule throughout the articles) almost always came with a higher than usual superiority over the player’s peers. At the same time, that has to be balanced against the fact that they often earned less accolades because of the nature of their career. It’s important to note that there is no such thing as an objectively best career. Every players’ resume is filled with highs and lows no matter the amount of time for which they played. Just as every career has cumulative accolades that need to be measured relative to the amount of time that player played.
Mvp’s greatness over a comparatively short amount of time exceeded INnoVation’s cumulative achievements, but Rogue’s 4 Code S wins and 3 World Championships placed him ahead of Mvp. I tried to strike a balance between these two factors (short term vs long term), which resulted in players getting rewarded/punished for different elements of their career. INnoVation and Rogue aptly display this methodology as both were rewarded for their many titles, but also suffered due their inconsistency and years in which they failed to post positive results or were shockingly eliminated from tournaments by “lesser” players in the early stages.
For those who don't care to read, the TLDR is that the placement sections in Inno/Mvp/Rogue talk about why INnoVation's career wasn't enough to put him past Mvp in my eyes, but Rogue's was (aka 4 KIL/1 WC for Inno vs 4 KIL/3 WC for Rogue compared to Mvp's 5 KIL finals with 3 wins while also outperforming his peers to a greater degree than Rogue and Inno when it comes to deep tournament runs and win percentage over a 2 year stretch).
With that being said, there are no absolutes in a process such as this like "peak is better than longevity" or "longer career is better than shorter career". If you say there are then you're being obtuse. The truth is, you have to apply this line of thinking on a case case to case basis and balance the pros and cons.
This is why this exercise is so much more difficult than people make it out to be. It's not about head to head. It's not about cumulative results. It's not about 3 year peaks or 5 year peaks. It's not about how good someone in a team league or if they were region locked out of events. It's about taking all of these things (which often aren't consistent from one era to another (such as mvp and serral, whose careers never overlapped)) and doing ones best to evaluate where a player belongs relative to one another.
If someone tells you there are no doubts in their minds that someone HAS to be ranked HERE or THERE, that person simply has not put enough thought into their analysis.
|
On March 30 2024 18:54 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 20:36 rwala wrote:On March 21 2024 01:08 PremoBeats wrote:
I seriously wonder how much ratios had to be distorted to come up with this conclusion.
While I was lying sick in bed, I was bored and took my time to analyze StarCraft2 data. I made some excel sheets, typed in the numbers and what I saw was absolutely insane at times. So here I share the statistics I found and hope you enjoy this little summary I wrote, after the GOAT debate was settled - at least for me
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved (MVP being the other).
- There is a player who has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant.
- There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins - 12th of May 2018 till 6th of October 2018)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019)
- There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved (The closest is Maru with 76% also in 2023)
- There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans, which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023).
- There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other players being Maru with 78% in 2023, Serral with 76,76% in 2019 and herO with 74% in 2017.
- There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25)
- There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against the top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2
vs Dark: 8:5:1
vs GuMiho: 10:4:0
vs Solar: 16:7:1
vs Cure: 17:3:0
vs ByuN: 12:5:0
vs Classic: 8:2:0
vs Bunny: 9:2:0
vs stats: 9:4:0
vs soO: 8:4:0
vs Innovation: 16:8:0
vs Rogue: 8:6:0
vs Trap: 14:3:0
vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0
vs MaxPax: 18:4:0
vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else.
Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He most definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win.
The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. It took Maru 11 years from 2012 to 2023 to amass 15 Premier Tournament wins in tournaments with top Korean participation. Serral managed to win 16 in 6 years, while Maru had more chances to do so as GSL is 3 times a year AND he was present in nearly all tournaments that Serral was in.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds.
Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats.
BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL, I have to reply “So what”?
He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above).
Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent for the aforementioned reasons.
Plus, Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. He is able to beat these players and he has done so on Korean soil without being Korean. So if all people have to offer is: “Meh, GSL” it simply seems like a last straw to hold on to.
That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world when they won the Champions League, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. This argument makes no sense at all.
All this is not even taking into account that out of the last 6 years, the world champion only came out of Korea 2 times. Meaning yes, Korea still has the broadest and best player base, but at the top, there are several other players from around the world who are able to show them their limits.
Serral is also probably the best player to prepare for his opponents as Katowice 2024 has shown yet again. Does anybody in their right mind think that such a format would be worse for Serral?
Plus, one has to keep in mind that Serral did all this without TeamHouses or the Korean infrastructure which was way beyond anything that is even present nowadays in Europe.
Serral has the consistency, by far the greatest dominance and he outmatches each and every other GOAT contender in a direct comparison plus win record.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree
Edit: Also, Serral went 20:1 in maps in IEM 2024, not 17:1
Edit 2: "And, while we never got an offline final between the two, they did play at GSL vs The World as part of the team competition."
As this article was posted after IEM 2024 where Maru was destroyed by Serral 0:4, this information is also incorrect. Impressive analysis (seriously). And very much reads as something written by someone has has not been following Starcraft very long. I don’t mean that as a dig, it’s just that your analysis treats all eras of SC2 competition as equal. The simple fact is that Serral has not won in the most competitive tournaments and leagues, where hundreds of pro players were competing and even top pros struggled to make it out of the qualifiers and into the group stages. This is not Serral’s fault, and I very much believe if he had competed in that era, he would have been incredibly competitive, probably picked up a few titles along the way. But he didn’t, and alternative hypothetical histories are not so persuasive in these matters. I still think it’s totally legit to call him the GOAT, FWIW, because you can argue that his level of dominance and skill is so high as to compensate for the fact that all his victories came in a less competitive (but still quite competitive) era of SC2. But there is a reason guys like Rain and MVP made it into this top 10 list without having won a “world championship”, while guys like Dark and Reynor who have did not. You can surely disagree with the criteria, but based on the criteria, the picks make sense. If Serral is devalued because of his successes in a much easier era, then Maru can't be GOAT either, as Serral was much more succesful in the same period.
I disagree. The scene getting less competitive was a process that didn't happen over night, it was a gradual process. And in 2018 when Maru achieved his 4-peat that put him in the Goat conversation, I think the scene was still very competitive with Maru, Inno, Rogue, Dark, Zest, Stats, Trap, sOs, Dear, TY, Cure, ByuN, herO, Classic, soO all still being active and pre-military.
Serral on the other hand absolutely needs his results in the way weaker 2022-2024 era to be valued highly to be a serious Goat contender
|
If the GoAT is the strongest player to ever touch this game, there is no doubt that serral is it.
There were people saying Taeja was the goat for the year he had in 2014. Serral had a better one, every single year, since 2018.
Until 2022 I still thought Maru was the goat, but Serral remained the strongest player in the scene, for what is now the 6th year in a row. An insane achievement that has no equals.
|
Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
|
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote:
Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
Because a poll will inform you about popularity and not much more
|
France12880 Posts
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote:
Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
There was such a poll on Twitter and INno was ahead of Rogue.
I love INno, big big fan, imo the #2 GOAT in an hypothetical balanced game, but as things stand out he can’t be put above Rogue. Shows how useless and biased such a poll is. No wonder it’s one of the foreign biased YouTubers that put up this poll on Twitter, seems like their ego got hurt by Serral being put #2 in tl.net list despite them not being Joona Sotala (or even from his family)
|
In a hypotetically balanced game MC would be GOAT. Maybe even TLO. In some other possible world it would be Leenock.
|
On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote:
Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat
Because it will result in a landslide win for Serral
Then people will argue saying popularity does not equal goat which will be the excuse Maru fans will use.
Fact is the majority fans / pros / casters all have Serral as the cemented Goat
Miz article is just for a fun read that describe why Maru should be goat even though that opinion is in the minority
Serral fans shouldnt be so outrage about these articles. Just because a platform such as TL form has an article having Maru as a GOAT written by ONE person doesn’t mean his opinion weighs more than anyone else. It’s basically the same if an article written and posted on Reddit saying mvp is the goat,
Serral fans should just laugh it off and enjoy the ride. Serral has already overlapped the field in terms of accomplishment and goat status, everything he does now will just be gravy.
|
On March 30 2024 22:40 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote:
Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat There was such a poll on Twitter and INno was ahead of Rogue. I love INno, big big fan, imo the #2 GOAT in an hypothetical balanced game, but as things stand out he can’t be put above Rogue. Shows how useless and biased such a poll is. No wonder it’s one of the foreign biased YouTubers that put up this poll on Twitter, seems like their ego got hurt by Serral being put #2 in tl.net list despite them not being Joona Sotala (or even from his family)
I'm not so sure it's an ego thing, versus a subset of old-guard TL.net writers telling the populace at large not to believe your eyes, ears, or brain telling you that Serral is the GOAT. Serral has the best statistical case (most tournament wins even excepting some regionals, highest win% against Koreans/top peers, multiple WC titles where he and Maru competed), plus the most prize-money won. AND he has the best story (solo kid in the middle of a frozen, arctic tundra arises to topple the Korean ecosystem of team houses/coaches) while dominating his rival for all-time status historically and in recent matches played. No, he hasn't won every tournament he's entered and has had blips. So has every other player--he's just had far less.
I think the in-thread poll was in Serral's favor nearly 2-1? As much as you might like to dismiss popular opinion, there's a reason why people like Jordan, Brady and Gretzky win overwhelmingly in goat discussions, and it's not because lol masses.
Granted, there's context to the Serral/Maru discussion to be considered, which is why I'm fine with the argument putting Maru over Serral. Just don't pretend like it's not asking people to ignore reality-based evidence. Maru choked away a World Championship and got swept in back-to-back years. That isn't a hypothetical like Serral competing in GSL and somehow losing every one. It happened.
I do actually think putting Serral in an easier/less advanced version of the meta would be the best way to nerf him directly, as it'd be interesting to see him rely purely on strategy and simpler armies to control versus sheer mechanical skill or great army movement/multi-tasking. In which case, I could see greater competition leading to reduced dominance. But if you could translate every player at their peak mechanical skill//knowledge and put them in this era (which I don't think can be argued as having the highest skill-ceiling), I'd take Serral every time.
|
On March 31 2024 02:13 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 22:40 Poopi wrote:On March 30 2024 21:11 Comedy wrote:
Why doesn't TL.net hold a front page poll for who is the goat There was such a poll on Twitter and INno was ahead of Rogue. I love INno, big big fan, imo the #2 GOAT in an hypothetical balanced game, but as things stand out he can’t be put above Rogue. Shows how useless and biased such a poll is. No wonder it’s one of the foreign biased YouTubers that put up this poll on Twitter, seems like their ego got hurt by Serral being put #2 in tl.net list despite them not being Joona Sotala (or even from his family) I'm not so sure it's an ego thing, versus a subset of old-guard TL.net writers telling the populace at large not to believe your eyes, ears, or brain telling you that Serral is the GOAT. Serral has the best statistical case (most tournament wins even excepting some regionals, highest win% against Koreans/top peers, multiple WC titles where he and Maru competed), plus the most prize-money won. AND he has the best story (solo kid in the middle of a frozen, arctic tundra arises to topple the Korean ecosystem of team houses/coaches) while dominating his rival for all-time status historically and in recent matches played. No, he hasn't won every tournament he's entered and has had blips. So has every other player--he's just had far less. I think the in-thread poll was in Serral's favor nearly 2-1? As much as you might like to dismiss popular opinion, there's a reason why people like Jordan, Brady and Gretzky win overwhelmingly in goat discussions, and it's not because lol masses. Granted, there's context to the Serral/Maru discussion to be considered, which is why I'm fine with the argument putting Maru over Serral. Just don't pretend like it's not asking people to ignore reality-based evidence. Maru choked away a World Championship and got swept in back-to-back years. That isn't a hypothetical like Serral competing in GSL and somehow losing every one. It happened. I do actually think putting Serral in an easier/less advanced version of the meta would be the best way to nerf him directly, as it'd be interesting to see him rely purely on strategy and simpler armies to control versus sheer mechanical skill or great army movement/multi-tasking. In which case, I could see greater competition leading to reduced dominance. But if you could translate every player at their peak mechanical skill//knowledge and put them in this era (which I don't think can be argued as having the highest skill-ceiling), I'd take Serral every time.
Yeah sure everyone is biased who doesn't agree with your opinion. Maybe there's the possibility that you and the EU casters who called Serral the Goat in 2019 are the biased ones?
Your eyes, ears and brain telling you Serral is the Goat is one thing, trying to force this view onto others and throwing a hissy fit (not you but some others) when realizing the eyes, ears and brains of other people tell them Maru is the Goat, is another.
About the popularity thing, while it's true that popular opinion is important, it's obv way more debated in sc2 than for Brady or Gretzky so the comparisons are kinda bad (not sure why you listed Jordan as it's quite debated actually, but that's a better comparison).
Also the fact this is a foreigner centric community I think makes Serral automatically favored in a popularity poll because large parts of the foreign community treat the foreigner-korean rivalry as a "us vs them" also evidenced by casters hyping foreigners (especially Serral) up so much when facing koreans.
It's like doing a Goat poll in football in a portuguese community which would obviously turn out in favor of CR7
|
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
|
On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote:
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side.
That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
|
On March 31 2024 03:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote:
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions.
I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation.
Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
|
United States1875 Posts
On March 31 2024 03:46 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 03:22 Charoisaur wrote:On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote:
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions. I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation. Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings.
I agree with a great number things which have been said over the course of these articles.
I agree Serral is a better player than Maru.
I've done other iterations of the list as thought experiments. Some of those have Serral as the GOAT.
Some have Rogue as the GOAT instead.
I think Mvp is in a perfect spot at four. If you only want to focus on collective achievements, I still don't think he can be worse than 20th considering names like ByuN, Cure, Classic, herO, Trap, MC, Rain haven't won as much as him.
If you don't like people finishing second that feel free to put soO a lot lower.
If you think Dark should be higher I don't agree with you, but I 100% think he could be as high as 4th.
I can understand a line of thinking that would have Reynor top 10, but I don't agree with it.
I can go on and on with these types of responses because I considered so much information that I can create arguments for all of these topics. That's not to say malleability should invalidate the rankings in the article series. I believe that, given my process and how I evaluated all the data, that is the correct list.
The one thing people are overlooking is just how much information is in these articles. There are stats from Proleague, Code S, SSL, MLGs, DreamHack Masters, all kinds of ESL events, multiple types of World Championships and a ton of stuff dug up on Aligulac. If someone were conscientious enough and approached everything with an opening mind, they could use the information available (and build on it) to create an evaluation of their own.
If you don't agree with me that's fine. But, I think the people who really went through these pieces and read them carefully understands that this is the largest written collection of information on this subject in StarCraft II history and appreciate it for that reason (and hopefully others). If people skip the articles and just tell me I'm wrong, they're the ones that are losing out—even if you consider my words heretical.
|
On March 31 2024 06:17 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 03:46 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 31 2024 03:22 Charoisaur wrote:On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote:
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions. I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation. Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings. I agree Serral is a better player than Maru.
Indeed he is.
This is one of the many things which, for me, settle the matter. Good post either way.
|
On March 31 2024 06:17 Mizenhauer wrote:
If you don't agree with me that's fine. But, I think the people who really went through these pieces and read them carefully understands that this is the largest written collection of information on this subject in StarCraft II history and appreciate it for that reason (and hopefully others). If people skip the articles and just tell me I'm wrong, they're the ones that are losing out—even if you consider my words heretical.
Too bad someone decided to shit all over your great stat collection and history achievement. Turning its finale into nothing more than rage/engagement bait for a short lived post spike. Makes me quite sad. At least it doesn't invalidate all the work you put in.
Just gives it a shale after taste.
Thanks for putting in the work to collect it all so neatly, I appreciate all the work you put in.
|
On April 02 2024 02:27 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 06:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 31 2024 03:46 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 31 2024 03:22 Charoisaur wrote:On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote:
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions. I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation. Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings. I agree Serral is a better player than Maru. Indeed he is. This is one of the many things which, for me, settle the matter. Good post either way.
He is. right now.
All time is arguable
|
On April 02 2024 03:48 Charoisaur wrote:
He is. right now.
All time is arguable
This. Serral is better right now, however GOAT says "All Time" which should include longer time period that 6 years. Salomon's ruling should be put both Serral and Maru tied on #1 and add a note that year 2024 will tip the scale.
|
On April 02 2024 03:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2024 02:27 Antithesis wrote:On March 31 2024 06:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 31 2024 03:46 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 31 2024 03:22 Charoisaur wrote:On March 31 2024 03:10 Glorfindelio wrote:
I think you can go endlessly around in circles saying whose arguments for their player is more valid--I think most of the discussion in the threads has been interesting, and certainly spirited, which is why I haven't personally said much. But my point in the Serral vs Maru debate is that you're asking the majority of people to dismiss the observable Starcraft they've seen since 2018 (i.e. when Serral came to prominence) to put Maru over Serral. Of course it's going to elicit a strong reaction. It's just baffling to me why that would be surprising, I guess.
Maybe Serral could have won yet another WC to provide greater clarity. Or maybe Maru could have won one.
Nobody is asking others to put Maru over Serral in their personal Goat list. If you put Serral over Maru that's fine, people should just accept that different people have different opinions and all viewpoints are justifiable as they both (+Rogue) have good arguments on their side. That's the surprising thing for me, that people can't accept those different opinions. I feel like what's been happening is what happens in every goat discussion in sports--the main difference being that SC2 is such a small niche and people identify even more closely with their favorite player because it's the definition of one-on-one competition. Of course there's chess and tennis, but SC2 has many more elements of randomness and variation. Anyways, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. TL is an institution when it comes to Starcraft, but we're close enough to the end of SC2's life span that a declarative article like this won't ever see an opposing opinion piece, which is why people want their voices heard. Especially when so many disagree with the rankings. I agree Serral is a better player than Maru. Indeed he is. This is one of the many things which, for me, settle the matter. Good post either way. He is. right now. All time is arguable
Yeah. Just like when Rogue was facing Serral or Maru in the final BO7 of tournament as he definitely would win for sure.Then, he should be considered the current best one whenever he won the tournaments, but some fans would not ready to accept the argument as they cited consistencies, longevity and period of dominance the foremost. As a results, no.1 is not an option, not because he was so good at winning the title but the lack of consistencies and other factors devalued his ranking over the others. Personally, I think Rogue should be no.2 while Serral should be no.3 if Rogue still continue winning and didn't enter military service too soon until 2024's ranking was published.
|
This thread more than deserves a bump. Serral, #1. 𓃶
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
