EPT#2: Serral - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 6
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Gantz023
34 Posts
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 18 2024 08:40 Telephone wrote: Yeah, and people talk about Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 as if it somehow counts against him to get runner-up in that tournament, and use it to point out how Serral is then obviously the GOAT. Serral was eliminated in the quarterfinals of Katowice 2023. Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 is a joke because he had the easiest route into a potential world championship (Ragnarock-Solar-Oliveira) but he still found ways to lose the finals to ranked no.20 best player in the world. A truly historic choke job to cap off his long list of disappointing finishes in international offline tournaments. Serral's elimination in Ro.8 in 2023 was a blunder, every Serral fan will have no problem admit it, because it doesn't matter in the big picture since dude has won World Championship 3 other times, every time by eliminating multiple champion level players on the way. (Dark-Rogue-Stats in 2018, Maru-Rogue-Reynor in 2022, Clem-Dark-Maru in 2024) If Maru has won a few WC other times then the 2023 result would be brushed off easily. But he didn't. Is it really that hard to understand? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10361 Posts
Look at how many Zergs get to the late rounds of big hard tournaments. In GSL, Zergs have been the fewest to qualify, often times just 2-3 Zergs out of 16 players. Only the really good Zergs like Dark Rogue get far. Serral is not too different at these international weekender events. There's Serral, Reynor, Dark, and more recently Solar. Then there's a big gap below them. Also, I feel trying to say things like "only 2 Terrans advanced to the Ro8, thus Terran was weak" is quite silly. Or "only 3 Terrans advanced to Ro16". 3 Terran is not significantly different from 5.33 Terrans out of 16. 1-2 Terrans instead of 2.66 Terrans is not a big difference out of 8 players. We are looking at very small sample size, and not every race has equally skilled players. | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
On March 18 2024 03:05 JJH777 wrote: He definitely is a hero for Terran. There would have been a ton of events with near 0 Terran presence if Maru wasn't there. Can you imagine a GSL with 0 T in the ro16? That's like 25+ hours of broadcasted content with an entire race missing. That's what would have happened if Maru didn't exist. Unlike Serral who has never been the last Zerg standing in a significant tournament. If he wins his main competition is always another Zerg either in the finals or ro4. And when he loses another Zerg makes it further than him or outright wins the event. Zerg fans always have someone to watch. On some days it's Serral but on others it's Rogue/Dark/Reynor or even Solar/soo. For Terrans, it's just Maru. And even without taking all of this into account, when there were other terrans in the tournament, they didn’t stand a chance from the get go. In 2018 for example, Maru was the only hope for Terran. Once he was eliminated, you knew a Terran wasn’t gonna win BlizzCon. Same in 2019 and basically every other year until 2023 On March 18 2024 11:17 Nasigil wrote: Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 is a joke because he had the easiest route into a potential world championship (Ragnarock-Solar-Oliveira) but he still found ways to lose the finals to ranked no.20 best player in the world. A truly historic choke job to cap off his long list of disappointing finishes in international offline tournaments. Serral's elimination in Ro.8 in 2023 was a blunder, every Serral fan will have no problem admit it, because it doesn't matter in the big picture since dude has won World Championship 3 other times, every time by eliminating multiple champion level players on the way. (Dark-Rogue-Stats in 2018, Maru-Rogue-Reynor in 2022, Clem-Dark-Maru in 2024) If Maru has won a few WC other times then the 2023 result would be brushed off easily. But he didn't. Is it really that hard to understand? How is RagnaroK an easy route for Maru, but RagnaroK eliminating Serral from that IEM doesn’t count against him? Plus Oliveira was on fire that day, he was the underdog vs every freaking opponent: Reynor, herO and Maru. Similarly, how is Solar an easy opponent? The fact that Solar loses very often vs Maru doesn’t make him an easy opponent for Maru, it’s just that Maru is a scarily good player so he beat Solar over and over again. But Solar isn’t an easy player per se, thus if Maru didn’t bring his A game he could lose to Solar. And let’s be honest here, there is no easy route for Terran. There are easy routes for top zergs, since basically the main difficulties in every WC since 2017 have been to avoid / beat the other top zergs. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On March 18 2024 14:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I don't understand people's arguments of, Maru was one of the last Terrans etc. and Terran is weak therefore Maru is especially impressive etc. Look at how many Zergs get to the late rounds of big hard tournaments. In GSL, Zergs have been the fewest to qualify, often times just 2-3 Zergs out of 16 players. Only the really good Zergs like Dark Rogue get far. Serral is not too different at these international weekender events. There's Serral, Reynor, Dark, and more recently Solar. Then there's a big gap below them. Also, I feel trying to say things like "only 2 Terrans advanced to the Ro8, thus Terran was weak" is quite silly. Or "only 3 Terrans advanced to Ro16". 3 Terran is not significantly different from 5.33 Terrans out of 16. 1-2 Terrans instead of 2.66 Terrans is not a big difference out of 8 players. We are looking at very small sample size, and not every race has equally skilled players. For quite some period it’s really only been the ‘Big 4’, subsequently then 3 when Rogue left. Solar’s stepped up lately too but aside from Rag making the odd run the overall Zerg cohort hasn’t been smashing it for a while. I feel Zerg’s potency has been a little over-egged in some quarters by virtue of them winning the big World Champ events so often, a slightly lower hit rate in regular weekenders, and a GSL where they’re winning quite a bit less and I don’t think we’ve had atrocious overall representation for a while. Of course there is the Serral factor with GSL, Reynor to a slightly lesser but notable degree. As you say it’s quite a small sample size so an outlier can really swing it. There is the prep factor and that cool format (although lessened nowadays with the contracted final day), and generally adjusting to Korea and being away from home that means it’s not a lock Serral brings his A-game. And we did see Reynor fumble last time as an example of how tough it is. But like even latter-day TY, pre military and consistently killing it in GSL, wasn’t laying a glove on Serral. Cure, has a 10% win rate in matches against Serral, and hasn’t beaten him since 2021. And we’re talking Code S champions here, hell Serral even has a great record against Maru. Nobody else in the scene has not just winning records, but often very lopsided ones against almost everyone relevant, and almost never has a bad day. Add in Reynor who in his final form is basically as good, albeit more rarely, and a Dark who can beat anyone except a locked-in Maru, Zerg doing well in the big events that players value above all else only really makes sense to me. To not have a strong Zoigy presence in the Ro4 onwards just strikes me as the strange state of affairs, only achievable if the aforementioned eliminate each other early due to the bracket, or 2/3 or 3/3 having a bad tournament. As to Maru at times carrying Terran, can’t really dispute that although it does raise an interesting point question. Why doesn’t he fully dominate the game when Terran is waxing? It’s the intuitive thing to happen, but instead he basically stays resolutely in the conversation as a championship contender while the fortunes of his fellow ebb and flow. My initial instinct was that historically his TvT wasn’t as stellar as his other matchups/how it eventually ended up so in periods other Terrans went deeper in strong metas this negatively impacted Maru. Unfortunately, and checking the numbers (after some pushback and input from Miz) this theory is total bollocks, as we say over here. Does make me curious as to any alternative theories as I must say I’m stumped! | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10361 Posts
Damn. Just damn. "Why doesn’t he fully dominate the game when Terran is waxing?" Hmm that's an interesting point! He's pretty consistent despite the lows and highs of Terran. Though maybe you could say he did do well when Terran was strong last year (especially due to PvT nerfs including overcharge nerf), by winning 2 out of 3 GSLs. In regards to TvT, I miss having him and Ty around, i gotta rewatch those GSL finals. I still remember being sad that Ty barely failed to break out that final game, he had a few cyclones and units, but his cyclones didn't target fire the tanks and instead hit marines/scvs... and i think with just slightly better micro he may have held, and then still had AA to push the banshee back. Really intense and awesome finals, i miss those kinds of TvTs before interference matrix and auto turrets became a thing XO | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6981 Posts
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol When you put it that way it certainly looks as one of the most glorious of Serral's achievements. Maybe 7 years are enough for #1 spot, but only if "GOAT" win yet Another Starvation League victory. Otherwise it can hardly do the trick. :p Serral's military time will be really interesting to see. Can he go against conventional wisdom of career ending military duties, and write yet another page to his narratively unprecedented legacy remains to been seen. | ||
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Durnuu
13321 Posts
On March 18 2024 19:07 Harris1st wrote: Congratz on #2 place and wiping the floor with the "GOAT" for 6 years straight lol Even the greatest players have nemeses (except Serral these days I guess, but I think Reynor used to have his number) For example, Flash wiped the floor with Taeja several times, but even I wouldn't think about putting Flash anywhere near Taeja in a GOAT list. An even better one is Zest and Impact, which is a surprisingly close rivalry despite a massive gap in achievements (you'd expect a similar record between them as Serral has with Maru). Impact actually has a winning record versus Zest | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On March 18 2024 19:22 UnLarva wrote: When you put it that way it certainly looks as one of the most glorious of Serral's achievements. Maybe 7 years are enough for #1 spot, but only if "GOAT" win yet Another Starvation League victory. Otherwise it can hardly do the trick. :p Serral's military time will be really interesting to see. Can he go against conventional wisdom of career ending military duties, and write yet another page to his narratively unprecedented legacy remains to been seen. Military service in Findland is different. He can still practice and will still compete in tournaments when he's in the military. I'm sure people will ignore this difference and proclaim he broke yet another record | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On March 18 2024 19:53 Durnuu wrote: Even the greatest players have nemeses (except Serral these days I guess, but I think Reynor used to have his number) For example, Flash wiped the floor with Taeja several times, but even I wouldn't think about putting Flash anywhere near Taeja in a GOAT list. An even better one is Zest and Impact, which is a surprisingly close rivalry despite a massive gap in achievements (you'd expect a similar record between them as Serral has with Maru). Impact actually has a winning record versus Zest The Zest Impact rivalry was news to me until I read that article on here, a fine read! | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On March 18 2024 20:00 lokol4890 wrote: Military service in Findland is different. He can still practice and will still compete in tournaments when he's in the military. I'm sure people will ignore this difference and proclaim he broke yet another record Yes, as a Finn, I know. Contrary to Korean military, The Sports Corps of Finnish Defence Forces make it possible for top athletes to continue their sporting careers during their time in the service. Serral isn't first from esports to go to the sports school, but certainly most successful one ever. Serral's participation to a tourneys during his military duty is possible because those tournament trips are as commands for the athlete. If I recall correctly a total of 100 days can be assigned to such purposes, allowing relatively free preparation, training, and normal tournament routine. However, during his military Serral doesn't represent solely himself, and it is expected that he (or any other sports school G.I.) will do his best in his sports. It is kind of honor to even get to the unit in the first place, and all of accepted people are top Finnish athletes of their respective sports. It is really interesting to see does the military service impact Serral's performance levels, as would be expected, but narratively this time will be, as far as I know, the first time SC2 player participate to any tournament under command obliged by his military duties. The best case scenario here is that Joona will go through his service time without any bigger dents to his SC2 career. If anything this can even make him stronger in those aspects of his personality that are already his biggest strengths: Disciplined and systematic training, ability to concentrate, and confidence. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On March 18 2024 19:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: "Cure has a 10% winrate in matches against Serral" Damn. Just damn. "Why doesn’t he fully dominate the game when Terran is waxing?" Hmm that's an interesting point! He's pretty consistent despite the lows and highs of Terran. Though maybe you could say he did do well when Terran was strong last year (especially due to PvT nerfs including overcharge nerf), by winning 2 out of 3 GSLs. In regards to TvT, I miss having him and Ty around, i gotta rewatch those GSL finals. I still remember being sad that Ty barely failed to break out that final game, he had a few cyclones and units, but his cyclones didn't target fire the tanks and instead hit marines/scvs... and i think with just slightly better micro he may have held, and then still had AA to push the banshee back. Really intense and awesome finals, i miss those kinds of TvTs before interference matrix and auto turrets became a thing XO Yeah I enjoyed their clashes, slightly different styles, and when TvT was even more positional and tactical on the ground versus Raven count being such a crucial factor | ||
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CerebrateHector
53 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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dapzar
2 Posts
Tournament success? Factored in, higher places award more money. Competitiveness of tournaments? Factored in, The international, high prize pool tournaments were consistently attended by the top players from all regions. Career longevity? Factored in, career duration directly maps to years with earning opportunities. The fact that Maru has played SC2 near the top for longer only highlights that Serral is so much more dominant that he didn't need the extra time to catch up and surpass Maru. I'm curious to see any replicable scoring system that isn't blatantly skewed to favour South Koreans and that results in anyone but Serral being at the top. Be it prize money, win rates, Aligulac rating over time (which is basically a function of win rates), they all point to the same result. With regard to this list, it's not transparent wrt how players are rated. The intro post mentions what goes into the comparison but no specific weights are given. | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On March 19 2024 09:34 dapzar wrote: There is a very easy metric to determine who is the best performing SC2 player of all time: Earnings. Tournament success? Factored in, higher places award more money. Competitiveness of tournaments? Factored in, The international, high prize pool tournaments were consistently attended by the top players from all regions. Career longevity? Factored in, career duration directly maps to years with earning opportunities. The fact that Maru has played SC2 near the top for longer only highlights that Serral is so much more dominant that he didn't need the extra time to catch up and surpass Maru. I'm curious to see any replicable scoring system that isn't blatantly skewed to favour South Koreans and that results in anyone but Serral being at the top. Be it prize money, win rates, Aligulac rating over time (which is basically a function of win rates), they all point to the same result. With regard to this list, it's not transparent wrt how players are rated. The intro post mentions what goes into the comparison but no specific weights are given. So we're including tournament earnings but not proleague salaries? Ok then | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15995 Posts
On March 19 2024 09:34 dapzar wrote: There is a very easy metric to determine who is the best performing SC2 player of all time: Earnings. Tournament success? Factored in, higher places award more money. Competitiveness of tournaments? Factored in, The international, high prize pool tournaments were consistently attended by the top players from all regions. Career longevity? Factored in, career duration directly maps to years with earning opportunities. The fact that Maru has played SC2 near the top for longer only highlights that Serral is so much more dominant that he didn't need the extra time to catch up and surpass Maru. I'm curious to see any replicable scoring system that isn't blatantly skewed to favour South Koreans and that results in anyone but Serral being at the top. Be it prize money, win rates, Aligulac rating over time (which is basically a function of win rates), they all point to the same result. With regard to this list, it's not transparent wrt how players are rated. The intro post mentions what goes into the comparison but no specific weights are given. Going by prize money Serral was the 6th best player in 2023. I think that shows how flawed prize money is as a metric | ||
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dapzar
2 Posts
On March 19 2024 10:13 lokol4890 wrote: So we're including tournament earnings but not proleague salaries? Ok then You meant team salaries in general, right? Surely you mistyped, for a second I thought, you proposed to add a figure that would only apply to players from one region, instead of the obvious generalisation that would apply to every player in the comparison. I mean, if you know how much each player is paid by their respective organisations, let's hear it. But I think, going with the earnings that are directly linked to performance, would be more sensible to measure the best performing player. @Charoisaur: That only shows, that you don't get the full picture by not looking at the full timeline. Thankfully, we have figures not only for 2023 but for the complete history of SC2, so that we can also rank players over the entire history of SC2. | ||
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
Even pending Serral's military time, give him another two years of this high-level play, he'll be the No. 1 Greatest of All Time. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2278 Posts
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2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 1/Code S
). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
