On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote: [quote] What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug-
Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1
Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most.
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
Angry, determined G.I. Serral will be threat to watch. It will be interesting to see how he manage his training regime during the time in the army; situation will be new to him, as he will get de facto commands to represent his country by playing StarCraft 2. Can he keep up his high level of confidence, dominance, and goal oriented approach in a circumstances not familiar from the past of his career.
On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote: [quote]
It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting.
Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
Since you want to play it that way: In all of Marus GSL-victories, he ONCE was the only terran in Top 8 (and that is the GSL Fango pointed out that I acknowledged as noteworthy). One time more he was the only Terran in Top 4. The rest of the time, there were plenty of Terran, including one that was only Terran in the playoffs. Stop trying to make Maru out to be herO. He isn't.
On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well
But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3)
Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine.
You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
And lastly, as for WESG: No, most elite Terrans didn't miss qualification because of balance, they missed it because of the very limited amounts of slots given out to Korea. Literally just three players from Korea were in the Asia-Pacific qualifier and the race-split was 1/1/1 there (obviously the same three koreans that also qualified for WESG then). The Korea qualification btw was apparently Bo1 Single Elimination for the most part...
But maybe we two have a problem of clarification, because you sometimes mix the claim. You originally talked about "Maru outperformed Terran", as in Maru played better than his race in general, which in the past would usually be a balance-issue. At other times you say "Maru is clearly the best terran"...which means he is just better than any other terran. So just to clarify: I completly agree that Maru is the best terran of all time. While I personally think Innovation has the higher skill-ceiling, any hard fact clearly points to Maru and again, I agree with that. I'm just not buying in the whole "he constantly outperforms balance because poor terrans are so underpowered T_T" thing
On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote: [quote] You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
"It's just basic stuff" Maru making a ro4 and playing a close series vs the best Toss when he's the only Terran in the top 16 is basic stuff? Winning two tournaments as the sole Terran in the top 8 is basic stiff? Sounds like basic stuff and yet no top Zerg has had to deal with any tournaments that lopsided since WoL. Clearly since Serral (and Rogue/Dark/Reynor for that matter) have never had to deal with this basic stuff that is missing from their resume they don't deserve their praise. Has Serral ever even won a single non region locked event where there wasn't another Zerg in the top 4? At the very least all 5 of his most important wins had another Zerg if not multiple in the top 4.
Since you want to play it that way: In all of Marus GSL-victories, he ONCE was the only terran in Top 8 (and that is the GSL Fango pointed out that I acknowledged as noteworthy). One time more he was the only Terran in Top 4. The rest of the time, there were plenty of Terran, including one that was only Terran in the playoffs. Stop trying to make Maru out to be herO. He isn't.
He definitely is a hero for Terran. There would have been a ton of events with near 0 Terran presence if Maru wasn't there. Can you imagine a GSL with 0 T in the ro16? That's like 25+ hours of broadcasted content with an entire race missing. That's what would have happened if Maru didn't exist. Unlike Serral who has never been the last Zerg standing in a significant tournament. If he wins his main competition is always another Zerg either in the finals or ro4. And when he loses another Zerg makes it further than him or outright wins the event. Zerg fans always have someone to watch. On some days it's Serral but on others it's Rogue/Dark/Reynor or even Solar/soo. For Terrans, it's just Maru.
On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote: [quote] You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race.
I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote: [quote] I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
If Maru being #2 in wins during a season when TvP and TvZ were both 45%, doesn't count as outshining his race then I don't know what to say. INno was the next terran at #9, which you could say was also very impressive given the odds. Once again, the claim was "there have always been 4-5 top terrans" at at best you're naming one other....
And has herO has won tournaments without another protoss being top 8? No. herO's performance is astounding, he even has a couple of GSL and Katowices as the only protoss to make top 8, something Maru has also done several times. Although the recent ones are lessened by the fact that Zest, Trap, sOs, Stats etc all went to military.
But let me know when protoss is so underrepresented to the point of 3/32 players in the biggest tournaments.
And Blizzcon is irrelevant here. viOLet and duckdeock made Blizzcons because they played in europe. The only Blizzcon that happened the same season terran was in the dumpster was 2019. And guess what? Maru was the only terran to make top 8.....
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
If Maru being #2 in wins during a season when TvP and TvZ were both 45%, doesn't count as outshining his race then I don't know what to say. INno was the next terran at #9, which you could say was also very impressive given the odds. Once again, the claim was "there have always been 4-5 top terrans" at at best you're naming one other....
And has herO has won tournaments without another protoss being top 8? No. herO's performance is astounding, he even has a couple of GSL and Katowices as the only protoss to make top 8, something Maru has also done several times. Although the recent ones are lessened by the fact that Zest, Trap, sOs, Stats etc all went to military.
But let me know when protoss is so underrepresented to the point of 3/32 players in the biggest tournaments.
And Blizzcon is irrelevant here. viOLet and duckdeock made Blizzcons because they played in europe. The only Blizzcon that happened the same season terran was in the dumpster was 2019. And guess what? Maru was the only terran to make top 8.....
Maru and Innovation have the same map difference, Maru even a worse winrate...that is what I'm trying to explain to you. Maru is 2nd because of the way it is counted "wins > all", which is a weird way of doing it.
And seriously, why are you always on about violet and duckdeok? I'm strictly speaking about BlizzCons that have an explicit KOREAN ranking aka. the ranking for GSL/SSL only. Or in case of 2015 a situation where GSL alone gave more than enough points to qualify. Same year as the Proleague you quoted...with Innovation winning 3-0 over Zest, while Maru loses 0-3 against Rogue. Maru sometimes was the last terran standing - which is a feat of course. But claiming he is "the only hope"...not really
On March 17 2024 09:52 Fango wrote: [quote] Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
Except for GSL '18, none of these are impressive? Like at WESG Maru was literally the only noteworthy Terran, what an achievement he performed better than HuT (yes, I picked one of the weakest ones, shame on me ). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
"None of these are impressive" dude really? Some of those GSL seasons had TWO other terrans even make ro32. You realise they all played in the qualifiers right? Terran was just a dead race
"INno had a better winrate in ace matches" INno played one ace match... why do you think his team decided to not field him more times like Maru's did?
Not to mention the fact that freaking INnoVation being the only terran close to Maru is not exactly "there have always been 4-5 good terrans" that was the claim.
"There weren't any other noteworthy terrans at WeSG" yeah because terran sucked, you could even point to the Katowice played a few weeks prior that had but two terrans make the ro12
Maru is still the only player here to win tournaments as the sole representative of their race from ro8 and higher. I don't see you can argue against that.
In most of these it was like "3 Terrans Top 32, 2 Terrans Top 16, 1 Terran Top 8" or things like that. When you say "clearly a level above everyone else" I would expect like the last Terran for much longer. It is just...basic stuff?
"Why did Innos team decide against him in ace matches?" Well, funny thing: Maru and Inno both missed the same amount of ace matches that season - one. SKT only had to play two ace matches that entire season, Inno played one of those. Maru played five out of Jin Airs six according to Liquipedia. So again: How did Maru outperform Inno in the season you choose to clarify how much Maru "outperforms other terrans"? Not to mention that Maru lost in the finals, while Inno got the point...
The WESG situation had nothing to do with Terran, that was just WESG. But again, you picked that tournament, not me. Oh and for the Katowice you pointed out: Uh...the race-distribution for the Ro8 looks super-fine? 3/2/3 and stuff Sure, Ro12 was lop-sided, but it is not like a tremendous amount of top terrans had left the building at that point...honestly just Innovation and Gumiho (who lost against two other terrans). And in that very tournament TY won his group convincingly, including a win over Maru. Then both of them got knocked out by Rogue, with Maru having the "luck" to play him one round later than TY.
Please, please explain to me how Maru making the ro4 or ro8 of GSL when 2 other terrans made the ro32 doesn't put him a level higher? Do you know how bad the balance has to be for the GSL ro32 to have 3 terran? That was probably the best performance ever by a player against balance.
He had Tasteless screaming in his honour after he beat the number 1 and number 2 Protoss players in the world to make ro8 (PvT was the reason terran was dead at the time)
As for Proleague, Maru literally finishes 2nd in wins when terran was the weakest race. Both TvZ and TvP were 45% that year, and the next terran was 9th, Yeah, he was the best terran, it's not a contest.
I chose WeSG because the question was literally "Name a tournament where Maru outperformed other Terrans", you can't then go on to say "well there weren't any successful Terrans that tournament so it doesn't count". Like yeah, why do you think barely any other terrans qualified ?
I think you are unaware of just how rare it is to have players perform well when their race sucks. I'll say it again, literally NONE of the players here except Maru won tournaments as the only member of their race from the ro8. Not out of the 100s of tournaments they all played it.
Okay, I conceit the GSL '14 S2 aswell, I probably misread that. So he had two tournaments in an 11 year career where he outperformed (slightly tbh...) his race. Wow. Does that fix all the years in which he couldn't even qualify for the most important event of the year? No...okay....
True, Maru is 2nd that season, the next terran 9th. But the way this is counted is just...weird. It is purely ranked by wins. If we ignore any (Stage) Playoffs, any player in that season could have played 28 matches. If you only count wins for the ranking, a player with 14-14 stats could rank about a player that has 13-7 stats or things like that. In this particular case, as I have pointed out, Maru and Innovation have the exact same stats - Maru just has more matches. They have the same Map Difference (which I would consider more important), they have the same Ace Match Difference (again, Inno here being "punished" for being in the strongest team of the season that rarely had to play Ace Matches). Sorry, but that just doesn't exactly scream "outperforming" Inno.
GSL '12 S1 as well, the worst that terran has ever been due to how busted PvT was, and Maru still made the playoffs off the back of playing that exact matchup.
Even if you say that is 3 tournaments, that's still more than anyone else has. It's almost never seen in SC2 history for anyone to outperform their race. And no did it like Maru.
INnoVation has one (1) tournament in his entire career where he finished top 8 as the only terran. Maru not only did that several times but actually won some of them.
You keep mentioning INno's Proleague record, as if a single other terran player making the top 10 when Maru was #2 somehow invalidates him. Despite TvZ and TvP being at 45% that season. Remember the initial claim I was replying to was that there were always 4-5 terrans and Maru never outshined his peers?
And why are you bringing up Blizzcon? The entire point was that Maru outperformed his race when balance was weak. And that no one else did that. Saying he missed Blizzcon a couple years doesn't change that.
"It's almost never seen in SC2 history"...I thought Protoss is so weak balance-wise and therefore herO is outperforming his race for actual years by now?
I bring up Innoas Proleague record of that season because you claim "Maru outperformed terran in that tournament". So did Innovation then. So Maru clearly didn't outshine Innovation in an example you brought up.
I mention Blizzcon because the statement "Maru outperforms his own race over and over" standalone feels like he is the constant No. 1 terran for eleven years. Then you look at BlizzCon results and see that he actually missed a couple, while other terrans qualified.
If Maru being #2 in wins during a season when TvP and TvZ were both 45%, doesn't count as outshining his race then I don't know what to say. INno was the next terran at #9, which you could say was also very impressive given the odds. Once again, the claim was "there have always been 4-5 top terrans" at at best you're naming one other....
And has herO has won tournaments without another protoss being top 8? No. herO's performance is astounding, he even has a couple of GSL and Katowices as the only protoss to make top 8, something Maru has also done several times. Although the recent ones are lessened by the fact that Zest, Trap, sOs, Stats etc all went to military.
But let me know when protoss is so underrepresented to the point of 3/32 players in the biggest tournaments.
And Blizzcon is irrelevant here. viOLet and duckdeock made Blizzcons because they played in europe. The only Blizzcon that happened the same season terran was in the dumpster was 2019. And guess what? Maru was the only terran to make top 8.....
Maru and Innovation have the same map difference, Maru even a worse winrate...that is what I'm trying to explain to you. Maru is 2nd because of the way it is counted "wins > all", which is a weird way of doing it.
And seriously, why are you always on about violet and duckdeok? I'm strictly speaking about BlizzCons that have an explicit KOREAN ranking aka. the ranking for GSL/SSL only. Or in case of 2015 a situation where GSL alone gave more than enough points to qualify. Same year as the Proleague you quoted...with Innovation winning 3-0 over Zest, while Maru loses 0-3 against Rogue. Maru sometimes was the last terran standing - which is a feat of course. But claiming he is "the only hope"...not really
Dude what? Terran wasn't in the dumpster at Blizzcon 2015. In fact terran mech was considered imba at the time...
I mention viOLet and duckdeok because you mention Blizzcon for some reason. Like it was the end-all of who the best players were. So what if Maru missed a couple blizzcons? Every korean player did because they only have a few spots to WCS KR points. I'm not trying to say Maru was better than INno every season ever. I'm saying there are many cases of him being the best when terran was weak
There are multiple seasons where Maru was the last terran hope. That didn't happen for anyone else on this top 10 list. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here.
Hm, makes me kind of sad... Had that very good feeling of objectivity in the whole journey from #10 to #3. But this last two rankings feel awfully subjective and biased. Serral being #1 over Maru just has way better arguments for me, at least when you clinge to the same logic as in the rest of ranking. To insist, a GSL Championship is per se much more worth than any other championship is imho neither fair nor sensible.
But in terms of career I think Maru is quite far ahead, so he edges out Serral overall. He has over double the number of Starleagues of anyone else, combine that with an almost untouchable Proleague record (almost because INno comes close) and his extremely-good-but-never-won results in World Championships.
Yeah, and people talk about Maru's performance in Katowice 2023 as if it somehow counts against him to get runner-up in that tournament, and use it to point out how Serral is then obviously the GOAT. Serral was eliminated in the quarterfinals of Katowice 2023.
On March 18 2024 04:47 DevilDriver wrote: Looking at the criteria for this list, I think it is impossible for a foreigner to realistically get the #1 spot.
There's a humongous cost opportunity for not living in Korea indeed, AND this is not even taking into consideration all the infra-structure that exists(ed) in Korea.
Serral is the most dominant, the winningest player, with the best winrates, favourite for every tournament for 6 years~.... still not enough.
EPT
2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 1/Code S
). Not even the Proleague-statistic is noteworthy - he literally has the same Map-Difference as Innovation, but a worse winrate (same with ace matches btw). You could argue Innovation outperformed Maru and not the other way around.
