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On March 17 2024 00:49 KalWarkov wrote:
korean bias teamliquid.
GSL is a 2nd tier tournament. and its xxx times a year.
it is WAY overvalued.
we don't have 2013.
I'm of that opinion as well, but don't take it as the opinion of the whole of TL (although it's probably true).
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On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that.
Exactly, casters/pros have lost their credibility regarding their stance on the Goat debate. He may be now the Goat (either opinion is fine by now) but the fact that casters called Serral the Goat in 2019 proves caster opinion is completely irrelevant on this subject
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On March 17 2024 01:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion
How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
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On March 16 2024 11:22 Nasigil wrote:
Harstem was right. KR still Has by far the better overall player pools. Serral is an outlier.
The most underrated part of Serral is how he achieved everything without having a lot of the privileges all top Korean players enjoyed in at least some parts of their career: teamhouses, coaches, high quality practice partners, KR ladder and etc. He somehow just became the most all-around perfect player ever by playing on EU ladder, practicing with Spirit and Oliveira most of the time, and probably meditating in some Finland forest, idk.
That's true but on the other hand he rose to prominence when the scene was already in decline, lots of championship contenders declined/retired, etc.
In this regard the circumstances were in his favor
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On March 17 2024 01:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:28 WombaT wrote:On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
Didn’t do it in HoTS for a start
Maru easily has him beat in Starleagues. Serral has equal WCs, more regular premiers, better stats, better head to head
The only way to put Rogue at number 1 is some wonky rating where Starleagues place him above Serral, WCs place him above Maru and there’s some strange combination of weighting that it edges him above both rather than one or neither
Which is basically nonsense
Top 5 sure but I don’t think he should even be in the conversation for the top spot.
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The concept of Serral being goat is laughable. Hey guys I'm a GOAT in an era of 3 teams in NBA!!!! LOOK I WON 10 CHAMPIONSHIPS. Reason why faker/flash are goats is that they competed in a era of extreme competition and rose above all the youngings. SC2 has none of that
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France12797 Posts
On March 17 2024 01:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:28 WombaT wrote:On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
Rogue is #1 if we don’t take into account how he rose to prominence after 1) scene got weaker 2) Zerg got far stronger
But in terms of pure career results he is #1
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Serral vs Stats: 2018 GSL vs. The World - Grand Finals, Game 6 (August 5, 2018) should be among The Games listed. Watch the end of that game and tell me if Tastosis have ever been more hyped about StarCraft than during those moments.
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Won more than every third and reached the finals of more than every second premier tournament he played in for the last 6+ years.
Is the fav against every player he plays and won 4 out of 5 matches against the "#1".
The question is what he was supposed to accomplish to become #1.
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On March 17 2024 01:57 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:35 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 01:28 WombaT wrote:On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case Rogue is #1 if we don’t take into account how he rose to prominence after 1) scene got weaker 2) Zerg got far stronger But in terms of pure career results he is #1
You would have to completely invalidate the importance of any Premier tournament outside of GSL and WC-tier events for his career results to be better than Serral's.
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On March 17 2024 01:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Exactly, casters/pros have lost their credibility regarding their stance on the Goat debate. He may be now the Goat (either opinion is fine by now) but the fact that casters called Serral the Goat in 2019 proves caster opinion is completely irrelevant on this subject
That's not really true. You could look at serral play in 2018 and 2019 and say he's the greatest that's ever played. You can witness the 'greatest play you've ever seen' without that person necessarily having all the accomplishments and tournaments that go along with that, just by looking at how he plays and seeing that it's better than everyone else. (it was.) but obviously if they said that in 2019 it had merit cause the accomplishment naturally followed over the years.
to be honest it was pretty obvious from watching his stream, the speed with which he plays and executes things, it was a level we had not really seen before. a lot better than peak life, basically anyone we had seen till that point. it was pretty obvious what was happening with serral from 2018 onwards just watching his screen, and this was greatness we were witnessing.
Actually if you look at pure skill when he plays in a vacuum, he underperformed and should have probably won 2 more katowices. (2019 & 2023).
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On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting. Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3) Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine. You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race. I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589.
My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers.
Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru.
You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
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The Finnish Phenom's career can be divided into two distinct phases: before and after he graduated from high school to play StarCraft II full-time.
So basically Serral lost the #1 GOAT spot to Maru because he went to high school and Maru didn't.
Ultimately what's better? A Finnish high school education or claiming the #1 spot on the TL GOAT list?
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On March 17 2024 03:04 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting. Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3) Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine. You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race. I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589. My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers. Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru. You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
1)HeroSandro was talking about Poopi when he talked about balance-whining, not you
2)Serral wasn't just called "the only hope", he literally was the only hope for years. Maru being "the only hope of terran" doesn't even feel like a thing? And even if it was, he only became that because every other top-terran except Clem retired AND Maru-fans needed to clinge to something considering how much Serral outskills Maru.
3)If you really think Maru has "revolutionized the game" like no one else...yeah, sure.
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copy & paste from the Maru thread because discussion is scattered between the two threads.
I always thought the fact that Byun has always been advocating for Serral's goat status is valuable evidence. He is a Korean Terran so unlikely bias to non-Korean or Zerg. He has been playing since the first GSL alongside Maru so he definitely knows about the competitiveness of tournaments across era. He has played both Serral, Maru and other top Zergs countless times so he has good knowledge of the skill level of his opponents. He is even a very close friend of Maru!
Yet, he has long been saying that Serral is the goat. I think this fact alone says a lot.
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On March 17 2024 01:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:28 WombaT wrote:On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Rogue being the GOAT is an outright silly opinion How so? Maru is lacking World Championships. Serral is lacking GSLs. Rogue has plenty of both. He has the most complete resumee. If the focus is on high-prestige tournament wins Rogue definitely has a strong case
why does winning gsl matter so much? he went to korea twice for gsl vs world and won twice, literally 100%.
why would he have to live in korea to be the best? he proves it every international event with koreans in it.
it's just a freaking korean league, get over it.
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On March 17 2024 03:04 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting. Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3) Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine. You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race. I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589. My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers. Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru. You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match.
point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely.
there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
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On March 17 2024 02:21 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:33 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 01:14 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. Artosis has said he doesn't consider Serral the goat (and he also things Zerg was OP during a sizable portion of the last 5ish years). Though he still thinks Rogue is. I don't know if he's ever made his opinion on it clear but I get a similar vibe from some of uthermals comments. Most other casters made their extreme bias clear anyways when they started calling Serral the goat in 2019/2020. Serral may be the goat now, I certainly think if you just look at his trophies/winrates with no context (scene weakening, low sample size vs Koreans at their peak, state of Zerg, region lock) he is the goat but he was not in 2020. He wasn't even a top 5 goat candidate but every caster besides Tastosis was already calling him that. Exactly, casters/pros have lost their credibility regarding their stance on the Goat debate. He may be now the Goat (either opinion is fine by now) but the fact that casters called Serral the Goat in 2019 proves caster opinion is completely irrelevant on this subject That's not really true. You could look at serral play in 2018 and 2019 and say he's the greatest that's ever played. You can witness the 'greatest play you've ever seen' without that person necessarily having all the accomplishments and tournaments that go along with that, just by looking at how he plays and seeing that it's better than everyone else. (it was.) but obviously if they said that in 2019 it had merit cause the accomplishment naturally followed over the years. to be honest it was pretty obvious from watching his stream, the speed with which he plays and executes things, it was a level we had not really seen before. a lot better than peak life, basically anyone we had seen till that point. it was pretty obvious what was happening with serral from 2018 onwards just watching his screen, and this was greatness we were witnessing. Actually if you look at pure skill when he plays in a vacuum, he underperformed and should have probably won 2 more katowices. (2019 & 2023).
and Maru should have won like 4 Katowice if he didn't choke/underperformed, that's a bad argument
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On March 17 2024 06:19 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 03:04 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting. Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3) Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine. You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race. I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589. My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers. Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru. You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match. point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
WESG 2017 (played in 2018)
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On March 17 2024 06:19 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 03:04 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 23:58 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 23:36 Pentarp wrote:On March 16 2024 22:25 HeroSandro wrote:On March 16 2024 22:22 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2024 22:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 19:20 Comedy wrote:On March 16 2024 18:47 Perceivere wrote:On March 16 2024 18:29 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Wait what happened ? I am utterly confused and feel like we are being trolled here. What happened was a somewhat prominent figure within the SC2 scene has an opinion. -shrug- Honestly, if any one of the casters, or top20 pros, were to do a write up or video of their top10 or top3 picks, I would give them much more of my attention. No dis to Miz. I just have never heard of him, until this top10 GOAT series of articles. I've only ever read Waxangel's articles, and even then with a lot of skimming-through. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, and no one's opinion is more official than another. I'd say, Miz has his own rationale and criteria, and everyone else has theirs. In my eyes, Serral is the bonafide GOAT, and it's actually not even close. Maru is a distant 2nd, followed closely by Rogue. I can't think of a single caster or progamer that wouldnt put serral #1 Progamers have been putting serral #1 for ages. probably before he actually deserved it, accolade wise. But that says it all really. The opinion of your peers means the most. It'll be super interesting and entertaining perhaps 10 years from now, whene everyone's retired, has kids, and might be pushing 40, to interview Maru, Rogue etc, all the top Koreans, and ask them who they thought the GOAT was. No more pretense or bluster, just pure no BS, straight up fact-spitting. Maru it will be There has been no other human to reach such a high skill multiple times, carrying the hopes of an entire race on his shoulders over and over again Winning 4 GSL code S in a row in a decently competitive era as well But sure, winning 3 WC as a Zerg is cool too. Two players managed to do it (one in a stronger era though, weird that he is only #3) Can’t really take anything from you seriously, as anyone else would have been banned so many times because of constant balance whine. You have no reply to their argument so you attack their character. Maru has carried Terran on his shoulders unlike any other player for any other race. I do value Serral’s achievements more, but my comment was about the constant balance whine he gets away with all the time. A case in point is the comment i replied to. Zerg is op and terran is the worst race part 4589. My post is about Maru's performance relative to his Terran peers. Serral is fking good. No one denies that. But Maru was good when his peers were struggling. Maru created a lategame TvZ style that defied expectations. No other player has been known as the "only hope" and revolutionized the game like Maru. You want to see it as a balance whine? Go ahead. Whether due to balance or just meta, Maru surpassed all expectations in a way no other player can match. point to 1 international event in which maru outperformed his terran peers immensely. there have alwasy been 4-5 good terrans at the same time. maru was never 2 tiers above them like you make it seem.
Good use of 'international event' to downplay the guy who almost never played in them before 2018.
Not Serral, INnoVation, Zest, Rogue, Dark, or ANYONE else on this list ever won a tournament being the only representative of their race in the ro8. Maru did it multiple times and in GSL.
Either way, here are some historic tournaments where Maru was levels above every other terran.
 2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 1/Code S
2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
IEM Season IX - Taipei
World Electronic Sports Games 2017
2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 1
2015 Proleague/Statistics
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