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On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt 
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote:
Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
I would say mid masters rather than diamond (high diamond could only maybe win in the very first 1-2 seasons with some memory of the meta/builds and doing mostly 1 base builds like 1/1/1 Marine Tank Raven+Banshee push due to their lower mechanics/understanding), but do you really think that having builds in your bag like 1 base triple robo in PvZ is something that actually matters? There were a ton of shitty builds in the first couple seasons that didn't make sense cus players didn't understand the game well. Players would win with just opening up cloak banshee and winning with 1 banshee.
The skill level and understand of the game did very quickly improve though in just 8-10 months (like by MLG Anaheim), so IMO you'd need to be either a mid masters player with a memory of the meta/maps and enough builds (either performing them or knowing how to react to enough), or a mid GM winging things to win it.
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On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
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On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I wouldn't hold Innovation's comeback in 2023 against him, or TY or sOs's comeback in 2023-2024, so I wouldn't hold Taeja's against him either. Going to the military and failing to make it back in doesn't say too much, that break in your career messes with things plus you're in a different stage of life after. We've seen lots of evidence of that with other good players like MMA, Stats, MC, Ryung, Bomber, etc. struggling or failing to make it in. (Ryung made it after trying a long time and is now a regular again). And to me MMA and Stats are top 15 GOATs, MC didn't try as many times so i assume he wasn't as serious about it but to me he's also a top 15 GOAT. And I forgot soO too.
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On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote:
Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
Yeah people underestimate what it takes to be a top player. Even destiny who was never anywhere near the level of top GSL players got GM (na) last time he streamed sc.
Also yeah through diamond and masters it's still mostly a game of simple math. Mine more make more win more. BoX build orders and mind games would make the average ladder player crumble.
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Northern Ireland26416 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit.
He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be.
Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years.
As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such
Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC
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On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote:
Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
Ya I’ll take the words of pros and caster who does this for a living rather than some forum poster lol
Skill haven’t evolved the last 10 years? Sure buddy keep telling yourself that. The skill was pure laughable back in the days. The games were laughably bad but highly entertaining. Basically a lower level of the AM server ladder clown fiesta
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Inno joined team Acer to take it easy and not practice as much lol. Not to mention the WTL team manager wanting 10 replays during the week to prove he was practicing.
When he was actually forced to practice we would get glimpses of the machine.
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On February 27 2024 04:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him. I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit. He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be.
I would agree if Taeja did it like INnoVation in 2023 - one try at GSL and then poof, but he tried and failed for more than a year before calling it quits.
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On February 27 2024 04:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him. I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit. He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be. Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years. As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC
I was trying to stick to the perspective of "Inno won a WESG/WC vs 2019 Serral late in his career" mentioned in these articles, I do agree he faded and never saw WESG as that big of an indicator of greatness/bestness. But i also forgot that WESG was 2 years before he retired, always felt like it was right before to me lol.
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Northern Ireland26416 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:21 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote:On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote:
Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players. Yeah people underestimate what it takes to be a top player. Even destiny who was never anywhere near the level of top GSL players got GM (na) last time he streamed sc. Also yeah through diamond and masters it's still mostly a game of simple math. Mine more make more win more. BoX build orders and mind games would make the average ladder player crumble.
Most regular casters are like, decent Masters thru Grandmasters players these days right? With few exceptions that I can think of.
Then you go listen to a Harambo (Harstem/Lambo) side-stream cast where they’re free to properly analyse as they want rather than have the expectation to entertain and hype (although they often do the latter hype l).
A Serral or a Reynor will be playing at like 350 APM and calling their own game in minute detail at times, largely correctly!
This is no diss on our many entertaining casters but they really call more general things, what is happening as it unfolds. Pros will go through like the 5 different possibilities stemming from one different gas timing, or what a chrono on a particular building is likely foreshadowing.
It’s a whole different ballgame being a decent progamer versus a solid GM player.
I remember Harstem pointing out that my beloved Trap used to religiously gate scout in PvT, with a slightly forward gateway, or as forward as was safe to cut a little rush distance. Then he’d harass an SCV or two with his pesky probe, and chrono an adept straight across the map. In combination this often allowed him to damage an SCV or two sufficiently that his adept could arrive and 2 shot rather than 3 shot SCVs and this consistently was netting him multiple worker kills from a few slight tweaks to his BO.
That’s the kind of thinking a pro does routinely, and another pro will pick up on a lot more readily than us mere mortals:
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Northern Ireland26416 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 04:26 WombaT wrote:On February 27 2024 04:14 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 04:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10. I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded. If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him. I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit. He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be. Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years. As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC I was trying to stick to the perspective of "Inno won a WESG/WC vs 2019 Serral late in his career" mentioned in these articles, I do agree he faded and never saw WESG as that big of an indicator of greatness/bestness. But i also forgot that WESG was 2 years before he retired, always felt like it was right before to me lol.
So did I, this series has both inspired me to revisit some classics, as well as doing some real Liquipedia refreshes. If it weren’t for that I would be similarly discombobulated, that thing you get when you’re older where something you think happened last week was 10 years ago, and vice versa.
I mean generally when I come to arguediscuss I try to be well-informed. SC2 history is maybe the only area I vaguely succeed in hitting that goal though!
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Northern Ireland26416 Posts
On February 27 2024 04:30 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 03:58 Fango wrote:On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote:
Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs Absolutely delusional. Through and through. I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years. And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions. A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players. Ya I’ll take the words of pros and caster who does this for a living rather than some forum poster lol Skill haven’t evolved the last 10 years? Sure buddy keep telling yourself that. The skill was pure laughable back in the days. The games were laughably bad but highly entertaining. Basically a lower level of the AM server ladder clown fiesta
Please for the love of all that is holy, go watch a game from 2014-2016 say. That’s about 10 years ago at the tail end, and still as long ago as 8 years which is close enough.
Mizenhauer has even helpfully embedded many classic VoDs of classic matches that helped augment and cement the various GOAT pantheon’s cases for being there.
I hadn’t watched any of those in forever myself, I was expecting there to be more of a gap but really it’s very recognisably modern and high level play.
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On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
Yes, Polt had good longevity.
TaeJa swings a lot in the GOAT conversation, depending on how much you value 10k$ tournaments. But it's not fair to look at the HSCs today and say that he just won HSCs, HSCs back then had qualifiers and so already this tournament should be weighed much higher, because every Korean player had the chance to participate if they so desired. Invitationals shouldn't be given much serious weight.
The same can be said of sOs, he will swing a lot depending on how much you value Blizzcons and the winner takes all Katowice.
The GOATs before LotV were definitely #1 Life, then you'd have MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs in almost any order that you wish.
MMA, INnoVation were ever so slightly below.
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MVP was also not an old man, lol. He won 60% of his earnings while between the age of 19-20, if you wanna praise an old man then make Nestea the GOAT, he won his 60% of earnings while age 28 and above.
MC is the same age as MVP and won the recent oldschool player invitational and was relevant in both HotS and even LotV. I think it's easy to say that he's a more talented player. What makes MVP great is probably work ethic, a good mind and good preparation.
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As for the discussion about early GSL skill, I think it's way more fair to say, would those players be able to qualify for GSL today, or get to GM easily and to that the answer is yes. All these GSL players would wreck the average masters player, if they were in their prime and tried to adapt to the current meta. I even think that many of the Terrans would do well, because Terran is quite OP today.
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And as for the Leenock muta split:
youtu.be
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On February 27 2024 20:54 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 00:30 Durnuu wrote:On February 27 2024 00:22 ejozl wrote:On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote:
Form is temporary, class is permanent. Yet MMA is not on the list! MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it. You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt Yes Polt had good longevity. TaeJa swings a lot in the GOAT conversation, depending on how much you value 10k$ tournaments. But it's not fair to look at the HSC today and say that he just won HSC's, HSC's back then had qualifiers and so already this tournament should be weighed much higher, because every Korean player had the chance to participate if they so desired. Invitationals shouldn't be given much serious weight. The same can be said of sOs, he will swing a lot depending on how much you value Blizzcons and the winner takes all Katowice. The GOAT's before LotV were definitely #1 Life, then you'd have MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs in almost any order that you wish. MMA, INnoVation were ever so slightly below. MVP was also not an old man, lol. He won 60% of his earnings while between the age of 19-20, if you wanna praise an old man then make Nestea the GOAT, he won his 60% of earnings while age 28 and above. MC is the same age as MVP and won the recent oldschool player invitational and was relevant in both HotS and even LotV. I think it's easy to say that he's a more talented player. What makes MVP great is probably work ethic, a good mind and good preparation. - As for the discussion about early GSL skill, I think it's way more fair to say, would that player be able to qualify for GSL today, or get to GM easily and to that the answer is yes. All these GSL players would wreck the average masters player, if they were in their prime and tried to adapt to the current meta. I think that even many of the Terrans would do well, because Terran is quite powerful today. - And as for the Leenock muta split: youtu.be
I wasn't discussing Polt's longevity, more so the fact that you value Mvp's escape to EU negatively (which I don't disagree with in itself), but then you mention Polt and Taeja as if they didn't do the exact same thing with NA.
I agree Taeja had decent runs in weekenders, but it's the same debate as with Serral and WCS EU - he beat 3 to 4 good players, more or less from the ro8 onwards, but the rest was a freebie.
And that's not mentioning the Dreamhack format which is very not Premier-like in my opinion (bo3 up until semis) but that is entirely subjective and not relevant here.
And i also won't discuss the fact that you put Taeja above INnoVation before LotV, which is VERY debatable
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Like I said, depends how you look at TaeJa and sOs.
How I view it:
#1 Life
#2 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs
#3 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs
#4 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs, INnoVation
#5 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs, INnoVation, MMA
#6 TaeJa, sOs, INnoVation, MMA
#7 TaeJa, sOs, MMA
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Northern Ireland26416 Posts
As I’ve joked in the past, my life’s ambition is to be the first person to accurately rate Taeja, he seems to almost exclusively be grossly over or underrated!
Either folks just point out his number of premiers and rate him really highly while skirting over the quality of the fields for some of those runs, or they’ll dismiss them out of hand and his record against the top players of his day, including those who went on to frequent GOAT lists such as these.
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On February 27 2024 21:23 WombaT wrote:
As I’ve joked in the past, my life’s ambition is to be the first person to accurately rate Taeja, he seems to almost exclusively be grossly over or underrated!
Either folks just point out his number of premiers and rate him really highly while skirting over the quality of the fields for some of those runs, or they’ll dismiss them out of hand and his record against the top players of his day, including those who went on to frequent GOAT lists such as these.
I believe in you! It's my belief that to be safe in such cases, it's fair to rate someone between the 2 extremes / your rating system should account for such extremes and find a reasonable middleground.
I was curious and decided to look at Taeja's 3 Premiere wins in 2014 and 2013, to see if I'm remembering wrong or if maybe there was decent justification for people putting him in the Top ~3 before LotV:
2014 IEM Shenzen
Group stage: Beat Life and MMA, and lost to Jim (who got #1 and also beat Life), advancing 2-1 while 2 GOATs failed to qualify.
Playoffs: Beat Zest, Jaedong, Solar.
2014 Dreamhack Summer
Group stage: Beat Harstem and Oz. Nothing impressive.
Playoffs: Beat Sjaak, Patience, Jaedong, HerO (not great but he did beat MC 2-0).
2014 HSC #9
Group stage: Beat roof, Patience, lost to Scarlett who advanced #1. Nothing impressive.
Playoffs: Beat Jaedong, Scarlett, MC (4-0).
2013 Dreamhack Winter, $30k first place
Group stage: Beat Innovation, sOs, ForGG, SjoW, advanced 4-0 over 2 other GOATS.
Playoffs: Beat HerO, MMA, Life in the finals, Life again in the grand finals.
2013 HSC #8
Group stage: Beat Scarlett and MoMaN, advancing 2-0. Nothing impressive.
Playoffs: Beat HerO, Symbol, Hyun. Ok nothing special.
2013 Dreamhack Bucharest
Group stage #2: Beat SjoW, Welmu, Basterd. Whatever.
Group stage #3: Beat Avenge, Symbol, Grubby. Nothing impressive.
Playoffs: Beat YugiOh, sOs, Life, Innovation.
Seems like a lot of wins vs players like Innovation, MMA, MC, sOs, Jaedong, and especially Life.
Just looking at this, I'm not seeing the narrative of "Taeja mainly only had to beat B tier KRs and not top Code S players".
You can maybe excuse players like Innovation sOs and say that they cared more about KR events. But Life? Hmmmm.
Looking back at WCS 2014, he beat soO, Innovation, and lost to Life 2-3. Really too sad, if only he got that WCS win over that matchfixing bastard, he probably would have beaten MMA.
Taeja had the winrate and H2H to do so over a larger sample size. I feel a similar argument tends to be used for Rain: he didn't rack up a ton ton of results, but you could tell he was great and could have won more.
But him beating Innovation even at an event as big as the WCS finals as well as many weekender events, I think makes it pretty reasonable if someone feels Taeja is above Innovation. Same with being over MC, sOs, Zest, MMA. I wonder how much more Life would have won if Taeja wasn't there to stop him sometimes.
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On February 27 2024 21:23 WombaT wrote:
As I’ve joked in the past, my life’s ambition is to be the first person to accurately rate Taeja, he seems to almost exclusively be grossly over or underrated!
Either folks just point out his number of premiers and rate him really highly while skirting over the quality of the fields for some of those runs, or they’ll dismiss them out of hand and his record against the top players of his day, including those who went on to frequent GOAT lists such as these.
Unapologetic TaeJa stan here and I've said it before, but TaeJa has always occupied the number 1 spot in my heart's power ranking. Nobody before or since has ever made me as excited to watch SC2. He was like the Terran version of Life in terms of excitement of play, which is fitting since they had such a rivalry. His games were often frantic since he wasn't very good at scouting drops/prisms and keeping defending units at home, leading to lots of crazy base trade situations. But my jaw was always hitting the floor when he would micro himself out of impossible situations. He was the first pro I ever witnessed to consistently medivac juggle marauders and tanks to dodge stalker shots, and he was easily the best in his day at target firing speed banes, and all those sorts of flashy plays that gave me the nerd chills. Like you said, he had excellent records against the top KR players of his time and did do well in several GSLs, but my biggest disappointment was that he never took one down to shut all the haters up. Alas, preparation style tournaments were not his forte.
But since he won so many weekenders, we always got to see his goofy smile, awkward applause for himself, and watch his worst matchup of all, TvC (TaeJa vs Champagne Bottle). Happy days.
But yeah, as far as where to put him on an actual GOAT list by the time he retired I have no idea. I just know that I would have rated him higher than a lot of other players that had won GSLs by that point.
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MVP! Awesome strategic play with a great story. That MVP vs Squirtle series is one of the greatest of all time.
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EPT
