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People who buff up the 2013-2015 era to downgrade Serral's performance use ilogical reasoning.
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
Also, only now we have our Ronaldinhos, Federers, Messi's and Venus... the ones who grew up playing the same game they play professionally today. Now they have their 10+ years of practice.
That wasnt true in 2013-2015, where the peak performers used their BW experience to edge out.
The Clem/Reynor/Maru/Serral godlike high level play they pull today didnt exist at the time...
Now it does.
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On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
People who buff up the 2013-2015 era to downgrade Serral's performance use ilogical reasoning.
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
Also, only now we have our Ronaldinhos, Federers, Messi's and Venus... the ones who grew up playing the same game they play professionally today. Now they have their 10+ years of practice.
That wasnt true in 2013-2015, where the peak performers used their BW experience to edge out.
The Clem/Reynor/Maru/Serral godlike high level play they pull today didnt exist at the time...
Now it does.
Even if players are better now, which for the very top I'd agree, it's harder to win tournaments when there are 200+ other fulltime competitors instead of 30.
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On January 14 2024 08:27 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
People who buff up the 2013-2015 era to downgrade Serral's performance use ilogical reasoning.
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
Also, only now we have our Ronaldinhos, Federers, Messi's and Venus... the ones who grew up playing the same game they play professionally today. Now they have their 10+ years of practice.
That wasnt true in 2013-2015, where the peak performers used their BW experience to edge out.
The Clem/Reynor/Maru/Serral godlike high level play they pull today didnt exist at the time...
Now it does.
Even if players are better now, which for the very top I'd agree, it's harder to win tournaments when there are 200+ other fulltime competitors instead of 30.
You actually have a point. Even if the level of today is higher, overall competitivity of the game has its importance, like winning a gsl today is way easier than in 2013-5 when even big players dropped before the ro32.
That said the only dude who remained competitive during all these years is Maru and even if I find terran fans annoying he has everything for him, won his first tourney in 2013, longevity, change of playstyle, meta defining player, good even when T was shit and one of the hightest peak in the game in 2018.
My problem with Maru is its lack of wc and its failure against an easy opponent in the 2023 finals.
In opposition Dark or solar who are the today's earliest bloomer with premier tourney wins won in 2016, rogue in 2017, around 9 months before serral's win so I am always surprised to see Rogue's longevity argument used against serral. That said, he is for me a bit overrated alongside sOs, I always thought Dark was all around the better korean zerg.
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On January 14 2024 08:27 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
People who buff up the 2013-2015 era to downgrade Serral's performance use ilogical reasoning.
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
Also, only now we have our Ronaldinhos, Federers, Messi's and Venus... the ones who grew up playing the same game they play professionally today. Now they have their 10+ years of practice.
That wasnt true in 2013-2015, where the peak performers used their BW experience to edge out.
The Clem/Reynor/Maru/Serral godlike high level play they pull today didnt exist at the time...
Now it does.
Even if players are better now, which for the very top I'd agree, it's harder to win tournaments when there are 200+ other fulltime competitors instead of 30.
If those 200 had been playing for a decade. I would put a big weight on this premise.
I dont have the numbers...
But i guess if one would crunch the rate that a given top 16 player in one tournament, back at that time, of placing top 16 again in the subsequent tournament would be lower than today's - which reflects the more competitive professional pool at that time...
Buuut, and again im just speculating, i think that if you calculated the average rate that a top 5 - top 16 placer back then, was champion in the subsequent tournament, i dont think it would be lower than today's. Cus of the absurd skill level that the top 4 in the world got today (Serral, Clem, Maru, Reynor - the latter 2 could be replaced now and again by Solar or Dark).
This thinking is to show why i dont think that the 2013-2015 pool would matter like many people think it does... Cus of the skill gap
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On January 13 2024 07:17 dysenterymd wrote:
I think the best way to judge progression of skill is by looking at interactions that haven't changed much over time,
Sure let's take the most classic interaction across all 3 expansions - marine splitting v banes. if you look at clem/maru split marines it is literally the same as marineking/maru/innovation. anyone who says they can pass a blind test of identifying them is lying.
On January 13 2024 09:50 Nakajin wrote:
Let's just take the winner/finalist of the last year...
You're supporting my argument... my whole point is 'players today are not better than past players' and you cite data that shows.... literally the dominant players of the previous eras are still dominant today. This is not so the other way around. By your stats, half of the dominant players today are only dominant today. Also once again, excusing Serral for being terrible at 15 while Life won GSLs at 14 (which at the time was world championship caliber or bigger) shows you how big the distinction is.
Reynor made 350 k$ in the last two years, you better believe if it was so easy for Rain or Jaedong to jump back in and beat his ass they would do it.
No, and I'm sure even you know this is kind of a disingenuous argument. Taking your numbers as true, Reynor made an avg annual of $175k. If you can guarantee yourself being a top 10 player in the world, even ignoring region lock and local competitions, your annual expected salary is $17.5k, half the minimum wage in CA. Also if the Saudi's didnt try to save sc2 with the largest (one time?) cash injection in history, Reynor wouldve made 100k/yr, which makes your expected salary <=10k. And that is ignoring perceived balance issues, the meta, regional competition, luck, etc etc so your true EV is much lower. No one would ever take that deal.
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On January 14 2024 09:28 luxon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 07:17 dysenterymd wrote:
I think the best way to judge progression of skill is by looking at interactions that haven't changed much over time, Sure let's take the most classic interaction across all 3 expansions - marine splitting v banes. if you look at clem/maru split marines it is literally the same as marineking/maru/innovation. anyone who says they can pass a blind test of identifying them is lying. Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 09:50 Nakajin wrote:
Let's just take the winner/finalist of the last year...
You're supporting my argument... my whole point is 'players today are not better than past players' and you cite data that shows.... literally the dominant players of the previous eras are still dominant today. This is not so the other way around. By your stats, half of the dominant players today are only dominant today. Also once again, excusing Serral for being terrible at 15 while Life won GSLs at 14 (which at the time was world championship caliber or bigger) shows you how big the distinction is. Show nested quote +Reynor made 350 k$ in the last two years, you better believe if it was so easy for Rain or Jaedong to jump back in and beat his ass they would do it. No, and I'm sure even you know this is kind of a disingenuous argument. Taking your numbers as true, Reynor made an avg annual of $175k. If you can guarantee yourself being a top 10 player in the world, even ignoring region lock and local competitions, your annual expected salary is $17.5k, half the minimum wage in CA. Also if the Saudi's didnt try to save sc2 with the largest (one time?) cash injection in history, Reynor wouldve made 100k/yr, which makes your expected salary <=10k. And that is ignoring perceived balance issues, the meta, regional competition, luck, etc etc so your true EV is much lower. No one would ever take that deal.
How are you getting $17.5k and $10k? Are you assuming that Top 10 players make $0 and that only Top 1 makes $175k?
Also sure even if marine splitting vs banelings is similar, how does that negate that players have gotten better at splitting vs WMs?
And have we seen Protoss pros of that time control 2 separate armies (both with complex compositions, such as sentries/HTs mixed in, not just like 2 balls of stalkers) the way Reynor had against Serral on Radhuset?
Also if you want 1 data point as evidence against players getting worse over time - then how about a player like sOs who won 3 world championships back then in the most competitive period, to winning 0 GSLs / 0 World championships in LotV (2017-2022)? Not all top players are still at the top today. Just as not all top players today were top players back then.
How about another one: Innovation IS a top player from that era who continued to play, and he used to be stronger than Maru but Maru eventually surpassed him.
There is enough counter evidence that it isn't a given that the good players simply quit.
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On January 14 2024 09:28 luxon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 07:17 dysenterymd wrote:
I think the best way to judge progression of skill is by looking at interactions that haven't changed much over time, Sure let's take the most classic interaction across all 3 expansions - marine splitting v banes. if you look at clem/maru split marines it is literally the same as marineking/maru/innovation. anyone who says they can pass a blind test of identifying them is lying. Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 09:50 Nakajin wrote:
Let's just take the winner/finalist of the last year...
You're supporting my argument... my whole point is 'players today are not better than past players' and you cite data that shows.... literally the dominant players of the previous eras are still dominant today. This is not so the other way around. By your stats, half of the dominant players today are only dominant today. Also once again, excusing Serral for being terrible at 15 while Life won GSLs at 14 (which at the time was world championship caliber or bigger) shows you how big the distinction is. Show nested quote +Reynor made 350 k$ in the last two years, you better believe if it was so easy for Rain or Jaedong to jump back in and beat his ass they would do it. No, and I'm sure even you know this is kind of a disingenuous argument. Taking your numbers as true, Reynor made an avg annual of $175k. If you can guarantee yourself being a top 10 player in the world, even ignoring region lock and local competitions, your annual expected salary is $17.5k, half the minimum wage in CA. Also if the Saudi's didnt try to save sc2 with the largest (one time?) cash injection in history, Reynor wouldve made 100k/yr, which makes your expected salary <=10k. And that is ignoring perceived balance issues, the meta, regional competition, luck, etc etc so your true EV is much lower. No one would ever take that deal.
Kind of comparing apples to oranges here--of course Korean players hit their peak/prime earlier back then compared to western players. BW was a phenomenon in Korea and literally the reason for an established ecosystem and legacy of e-gaming success with team houses, Kespa, huge salaries/prizes, etc leading into SC2. Flash/Jaedong were rockstars. In America/Europe you had a smattering of teams and a small handful of (barely) relevant players. Gaming as a profession was barely accepted there. So that path to success was always going to look different, as culture and environment matters. Michael Jordan didn't make varsity basketball his sophomore year--still think it turned out OK for him.
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On January 14 2024 09:28 luxon wrote:
Also once again, excusing Serral for being terrible at 15 while Life won GSLs at 14 (which at the time was world championship caliber or bigger) shows you how big the distinction is.
Another great argument from a korean elitist, truely remarkable. Same exact situation for both of them btw, clearly...
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On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
All the best players of that era happening to be the ones playing 10 hours a day in Korean team houses was just a coincidence, got it.
If you stuck 10 of the Top 30 players of today in a team house and they practiced and theorised against each other for 10 hours a day every single day, it would only take a matter of months before they left the other twenty in the dust.
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United States33389 Posts
On January 14 2024 05:31 WombaT wrote: Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 05:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I don't get why people subtract so many points from Taeja just cus he doesn't do well in korean leagues like GSL.
Look at his tournament record, there was like 2 years where he won like 5-6 tournaments EACH YEAR. Imagine playing vs all these other top players and just winning each. and. every. tournament. Could Maru or Rogue achieve that? I'm really not sure, and I'd say no because the only other player who has shown such a similar feat in winning almost every tournament they enter, actually entering lots of tournaments so that you give others plenty of chances to beat you and sour your record, AND actually still racking up several wins each year despite that is Serral. Taeja was also winning these tournaments against stacked fields featuring the very same players people will put above him in these kind of ranks, and often for decent money. So the argument that folks somehow weren’t really bothered doesn’t really track. His inability to win a prep tournament does count against him when we’re talking absolute GOAT lists IMO, but prior to Serral going super Saiyan Taeja was probably the best show up at a weekender and consistently stomp all comers that we’d seen.
This kind of comment is exactly why we need these kinds of articles (even though I disagree with Mizen on a LOT of things) to make sure we have a good perspective of history. TaeJa was extremely good when going by the eye-test, but his tournament paths were VERY soft.
Listing his final opponents for his championships:
DH Valencia 2012: SaSe, TargA, ForGG
HomeStory Cup 7: Seed, TLO, Snute
ASUS ROG Summer 2013: GosWser, Alicia, San
DreamHack Bucharest 2013: sOs, Life, INnoVation (this is the one of the big cases for TaeJa)
HomeStory Cup 8: HerO, Symbol, HyuN
DreamHack Winter 2013: HerO, MMA, Life, Life (the other big case)
HomeStory Cup 9: Jaedong, Scarlett, MC
DreamHack Summer 2014: Patience, Jaedong, HerO
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United States33389 Posts
On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
People who buff up the 2013-2015 era to downgrade Serral's performance use ilogical reasoning.
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
Also, only now we have our Ronaldinhos, Federers, Messi's and Venus... the ones who grew up playing the same game they play professionally today. Now they have their 10+ years of practice.
That wasnt true in 2013-2015, where the peak performers used their BW experience to edge out.
The Clem/Reynor/Maru/Serral godlike high level play they pull today didnt exist at the time...
Now it does.
Not that I'm talking to ppl on the streets of Brazil, but I'm a bit skeptical they're saying "Ronaldinho > Pele" in terms of greatness 
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On January 14 2024 12:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
All the best players of that era happening to be the ones playing 10 hours a day in Korean team houses was just a coincidence, got it. If you stuck 10 of the Top 30 players of today in a team house and they practiced and theorised against each other for 10 hours a day every single day, it would only take a matter of months before they left the other twenty in the dust.
For most players perhaps, it’s probably the regime that on average works best, although on a human level I have certain issues with it. And on a StarCraft machine shaping level I do think you hit a level of diminishing returns too.
It’s probably a good thing overall where somebody like Serral can independently grind and do their own thing and still be one of the more dominant players we’ve seen without the barrier to being a top level pro being living in a team house and living and breathing StarCraft
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On January 14 2024 13:02 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 05:31 WombaT wrote: On January 14 2024 05:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I don't get why people subtract so many points from Taeja just cus he doesn't do well in korean leagues like GSL.
Look at his tournament record, there was like 2 years where he won like 5-6 tournaments EACH YEAR. Imagine playing vs all these other top players and just winning each. and. every. tournament. Could Maru or Rogue achieve that? I'm really not sure, and I'd say no because the only other player who has shown such a similar feat in winning almost every tournament they enter, actually entering lots of tournaments so that you give others plenty of chances to beat you and sour your record, AND actually still racking up several wins each year despite that is Serral. Taeja was also winning these tournaments against stacked fields featuring the very same players people will put above him in these kind of ranks, and often for decent money. So the argument that folks somehow weren’t really bothered doesn’t really track. His inability to win a prep tournament does count against him when we’re talking absolute GOAT lists IMO, but prior to Serral going super Saiyan Taeja was probably the best show up at a weekender and consistently stomp all comers that we’d seen. This kind of comment is exactly why we need these kinds of articles (even though I disagree with Mizen on a LOT of things) to make sure we have a good perspective of history. TaeJa was extremely good when going by the eye-test, but his tournament paths were VERY soft. Listing his final opponents for his championships: DH Valencia 2012: SaSe, TargA, ForGG HomeStory Cup 7: Seed, TLO, Snute ASUS ROG Summer 2013: GosWser, Alicia, San DreamHack Bucharest 2013: sOs, Life, INnoVation (this is the one of the big cases for TaeJa) HomeStory Cup 8: HerO, Symbol, HyuN DreamHack Winter 2013: HerO, MMA, Life, Life (the other big case) HomeStory Cup 9: Jaedong, Scarlett, MC DreamHack Summer 2014: Patience, Jaedong, HerO
To a degree although I think that list suffers a bit by being a decade ago
HerO is IMO one of the more underrated players around, Jaedong was top notch in his span, MC was still somewhat the ‘Boss Toss’ and guys like Symbol and Hyun were very good players, etc
Most you probably don’t place too highly in a GOAT table retrospectively, but at the time in question and before mostly Kespa players started dominating, and those dudes stuck around, there’s still some top tier players of that era there. Plus the manner of the victories, iirc one of those was done without dropping a map.
If we looked at who Mvp toppled in his time you probably have the same effect but few would argue he’s not at least in the GOAT conversation
I don’t think it’s enough to push into the Terran top 3, or the top 10 overall but I think Taeja has a solid case to be a clear top 4 Terran and at least a top 20 overall with his record
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Serral is doubtless the best player right now, but he is not the GOAT and that is obvious to anyone who seriously considers the question. The only real answer is Rogue, and that is only the case because I believe the GOAT should have been world champion at least once. If you're looking purely at accomplishments and not mandating "world champion" as a requirement, then Maru is the clear favorite (it's not close, quit coping). Maru won 7 GSLs, a premiere offline tournament with the most difficult competition in the world (the most difficult SC2 competition in the world) and he achieved second place in two GSLs. Maru got 2nd place in a world championship, and made top 4 in 3 other world championships.
Maru having the clear most impressive tournament record against the highest difficulty opponents, plus the undisputed best team league record of all time, makes him the real GOAT.
Rogue is clearly in the top 2 based on strength of opponents, but it's difficult to determine who is the best between him and Maru. Serral is the obvious 3rd and Reynor seems like a pretty clear 4th.
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On January 14 2024 19:26 Telephone wrote:
Serral is doubtless the best player right now, but he is not the GOAT and that is obvious to anyone who seriously considers the question. The only real answer is Rogue, and that is only the case because I believe the GOAT should have been world champion at least once. If you're looking purely at accomplishments and not mandating "world champion" as a requirement, then Maru is the clear favorite (it's not close, quit coping). Maru won 7 GSLs, a premiere offline tournament with the most difficult competition in the world (the most difficult SC2 competition in the world) and he achieved second place in two GSLs. Maru got 2nd place in a world championship, and made top 4 in 3 other world championships.
Maru having the clear most impressive tournament record against the highest difficulty opponents, plus the undisputed best team league record of all time, makes him the real GOAT.
Rogue is clearly in the top 2 based on strength of opponents, but it's difficulf to determine who is the best between him and Maru. Serral is the obvious 3rd and Reynor seems like a pretty clear 4th.
Reynor isn’t anywhere near outside of recency bias
Rogue spent years in the shadow of others, while still a top player and only really started racking up titles after the scene was less competitive, there’s no way he’s the GOAT
Maru was consistently a top player for a ridiculous span of time, I don’t really think there’s another candidate here. Although his lack of a World Champ is something
Serral is the most relentlessly consistent player out there, and the stats bear that out. He’s got the world champs and an absurd amount of other titles. The best record against Korean opposition of anyone, a winning head-to-head against almost everyone, the highest ladder MMR reached, the highest Aligulac rating
There is the angle of the level of competition maybe not quite being what it was but if Serral was doing this even a couple of years earlier there’s no even a debate on GOAT
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On January 14 2024 19:41 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 19:26 Telephone wrote:
Serral is doubtless the best player right now, but he is not the GOAT and that is obvious to anyone who seriously considers the question. The only real answer is Rogue, and that is only the case because I believe the GOAT should have been world champion at least once. If you're looking purely at accomplishments and not mandating "world champion" as a requirement, then Maru is the clear favorite (it's not close, quit coping). Maru won 7 GSLs, a premiere offline tournament with the most difficult competition in the world (the most difficult SC2 competition in the world) and he achieved second place in two GSLs. Maru got 2nd place in a world championship, and made top 4 in 3 other world championships.
Maru having the clear most impressive tournament record against the highest difficulty opponents, plus the undisputed best team league record of all time, makes him the real GOAT.
Rogue is clearly in the top 2 based on strength of opponents, but it's difficulf to determine who is the best between him and Maru. Serral is the obvious 3rd and Reynor seems like a pretty clear 4th. Reynor isn’t anywhere near outside of recency bias Rogue spent years in the shadow of others, while still a top player and only really started racking up titles after the scene was less competitive, there’s no way he’s the GOAT Maru was consistently a top player for a ridiculous span of time, I don’t really think there’s another candidate here. Although his lack of a World Champ is something Serral is the most relentlessly consistent player out there, and the stats bear that out. He’s got the world champs and an absurd amount of other titles. The best record against Korean opposition of anyone, a winning head-to-head against almost everyone, the highest ladder MMR reached, the highest Aligulac rating There is the angle of the level of competition maybe not quite being what it was but if Serral was doing this even a couple of years earlier there’s no even a debate on GOAT
Serral also beats any player head to head (maps x maps, and series x series) from 2017 to today. That includes Maru, Rogue, Dark, Clem, Reynor, Stats, Trap, Classic, and so on. He is the only player to have that kind of statistics by his side
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Someone said something about Dark and while I agree that he is in the top ten players (or better!l) of all time, there is unfortunately no argument for him to be made as the greatest of all time. It would be like naming Clem or Cure the GOAT. Some awesome recent results, but very few (comparatively) offline tournament wins and no sustained periods of complete dominance. I.e., Clem is obviously one of the best players to ever touch the game, but nobody would ever honestly put him in the running for greatest of all time.
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On January 14 2024 19:26 Telephone wrote:
Serral is doubtless the best player right now, but he is not the GOAT and that is obvious to anyone who seriously considers the question. The only real answer is Rogue, and that is only the case because I believe the GOAT should have been world champion at least once. If you're looking purely at accomplishments and not mandating "world champion" as a requirement, then Maru is the clear favorite (it's not close, quit coping). Maru won 7 GSLs, a premiere offline tournament with the most difficult competition in the world (the most difficult SC2 competition in the world) and he achieved second place in two GSLs. Maru got 2nd place in a world championship, and made top 4 in 3 other world championships.
Maru having the clear most impressive tournament record against the highest difficulty opponents, plus the undisputed best team league record of all time, makes him the real GOAT.
Rogue is clearly in the top 2 based on strength of opponents, but it's difficult to determine who is the best between him and Maru. Serral is the obvious 3rd and Reynor seems like a pretty clear 4th.
I would argue that Rogue probably has the best career overall of any player, but isn't a Top 3 player ever.
He just had absolutely zero aura. There was nothing especially cool or unique about him. There was never a point where you are awed by him, where you could point to him and say "Nobody can beat that guy." All the other GOAT candidates have that aura of invincibility. Rogue to me, is kinda in the Stats category (but obviously has way better results) where he was just some guy who happened to win a lot. There wasn't much story or intrigue to his career, he was just good. The most boring possible kind of top player.
He had the Bo7 offline winstreak, but even then it felt more coincidental than anything, not him being some kind of god of planning and actually feeling undefeatable in that environment.
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On January 14 2024 15:26 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 05:56 Locutus_ wrote:
People who buff up the 2013-2015 era to downgrade Serral's performance use ilogical reasoning.
Those Kespa pros simply lost their edge with time. The inhouse training lost its use after the lan logistics died out to a globalized enviroment. The world caught up.
Also, only now we have our Ronaldinhos, Federers, Messi's and Venus... the ones who grew up playing the same game they play professionally today. Now they have their 10+ years of practice.
That wasnt true in 2013-2015, where the peak performers used their BW experience to edge out.
The Clem/Reynor/Maru/Serral godlike high level play they pull today didnt exist at the time...
Now it does.
Not that I'm talking to ppl on the streets of Brazil, but I'm a bit skeptical they're saying "Ronaldinho > Pele" in terms of greatness
I just chose Ronaldinho because there are images of him as a child playing ball, and also because his geniality has a greater chance of still being present in readers minds 
But no, no one here thinks Ronaldinho was greater than Pele (maybe some nonsensical ppl)... But if you ask about the one true Ronaldo (the phenomenom) x Pele... there might be a few more in favor of the phenomenom hehehe
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On January 14 2024 19:41 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 19:26 Telephone wrote:
Serral is doubtless the best player right now, but he is not the GOAT and that is obvious to anyone who seriously considers the question. The only real answer is Rogue, and that is only the case because I believe the GOAT should have been world champion at least once. If you're looking purely at accomplishments and not mandating "world champion" as a requirement, then Maru is the clear favorite (it's not close, quit coping). Maru won 7 GSLs, a premiere offline tournament with the most difficult competition in the world (the most difficult SC2 competition in the world) and he achieved second place in two GSLs. Maru got 2nd place in a world championship, and made top 4 in 3 other world championships.
Maru having the clear most impressive tournament record against the highest difficulty opponents, plus the undisputed best team league record of all time, makes him the real GOAT.
Rogue is clearly in the top 2 based on strength of opponents, but it's difficulf to determine who is the best between him and Maru. Serral is the obvious 3rd and Reynor seems like a pretty clear 4th. Reynor isn’t anywhere near outside of recency bias Rogue spent years in the shadow of others, while still a top player and only really started racking up titles after the scene was less competitive, there’s no way he’s the GOAT Maru was consistently a top player for a ridiculous span of time, I don’t really think there’s another candidate here. Although his lack of a World Champ is something Serral is the most relentlessly consistent player out there, and the stats bear that out. He’s got the world champs and an absurd amount of other titles. The best record against Korean opposition of anyone, a winning head-to-head against almost everyone, the highest ladder MMR reached, the highest Aligulac rating There is the angle of the level of competition maybe not quite being what it was but if Serral was doing this even a couple of years earlier there’s no even a debate on GOAT
Yeah this sums up my thoughts too. I don't think any of the 3 can be called the Goat because they all have flaws/asterisks in their resume which prevents them from being called the undisputably greatest.
To add to the Serral point he also never played in the GSL and his record in world championship events is good but not THAT great when considering his overall level of dominance and there are even 2 players with a better record in those kind of events. I think Serral won like 2 in 13 attempts which is alright but not enough to call him the Goat considering the other factors (not playing GSL, less competitive era).
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EPT
