EPTGreatest Players of All Time: Intro - Page 9
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ScrappyRabbit
200 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 17 2024 22:47 Durnuu wrote: Has no one ever told you that narrative > facts? While that regime, and overall competitiveness have dropped, neither did the skills (and connections) imparted by those houses completely dissipate either. It’s still a less difficult breakthrough than if they were active, absolutely but I wouldn’t say it’s something to be entirely dismissed. Nobody’s been able to do it in Brood War at all, even now, and very few, and no Koreans have dethroned the eSF/Kespa trained in this particular era. | ||
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rwala
327 Posts
On January 18 2024 01:21 Argonauta wrote: That is a very bad take, so you think that players playing awful series all around has less negative weight than players playing very good but having slip ups? I think the guy with the best premier tournament finals record in SC2 history, 3 world championships, and 4 GSL titles is clutch AF, yes. I did not claim that Rogue coming in clutch produced particularly inspiring StarCraft. This is not a very good or bad take, it’s so obvious I’m not sure it counts as a take at all. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 18 2024 03:40 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Serral is infuriating. He's never entered the signature SC2 tournament and his play doesn't inspire the goosebumps of someone like Maru or Inno, but he just...doesn't...lose. We've been waiting for him to get "exposed" for a half-decade but he just...keeps...beating...everybody. Yeah Inno’s ‘The Machine’ nickname fit him well, but fits Serral even better. I do actually really like the lad to be fair but he reminds me a little of Novak Djokovic. Lad just wins in a brutally efficient manner, but lacks that elegant effortlessness of a Federer in his pomp. Inno at his peak years reminds me a little of Tiger Woods in his pomp, in that he was just crushing people for a bit and that in itself was more awe-inspiring than merely winning everything. Obviously the golf crowd eventually reeled Tiger in, in the same way SC2’s top dogs closed the gap Inno’s insane mechanics initially gave him. | ||
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Agh
United States1016 Posts
On January 18 2024 03:40 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Serral is infuriating. He's never entered the signature SC2 tournament and his play doesn't inspire the goosebumps of someone like Maru or Inno, but he just...doesn't...lose. We've been waiting for him to get "exposed" for a half-decade but he just...keeps...beating...everybody. Guess we're watching different games. You can take just about any one of serral's games that aren't of him just curbstomping some poor soul, and just see every moment that another player would have failed in his place over and over again. Reynor's interview awhile back summed it up pretty nicely. When you play against him you feel just feel it. I've played against a lot of people and nothing rivals that feeling of hopelessness except for maybe matching Happy in wc3. Also when you watch him he makes it seem effortless, and errors are very infrequent and harder to spot. On the other hand someone like Maru makes many obvious errors along with some bad/questionable decisions but he's able to overcome that with raw ability. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On January 18 2024 21:54 Agh wrote: Guess we're watching different games. You can take just about any one of serral's games that aren't of him just curbstomping some poor soul, and just see every moment that another player would have failed in his place over and over again. Reynor's interview awhile back summed it up pretty nicely. When you play against him you feel just feel it. I've played against a lot of people and nothing rivals that feeling of hopelessness except for maybe matching Happy in wc3. Also when you watch him he makes it seem effortless, and errors are very infrequent and harder to spot. On the other hand someone like Maru makes many obvious errors along with some bad/questionable decisions but he's able to overcome that with raw ability. Yeah that's true, but I also think the race he plays has a big part in that. I think Zerg is the only race which can get away with just playing defensive macro every game and winning by reading the opponent correctly and shutting it down. Terran and Protoss need to mix it up and surprise the opponent, go for timings they don't expect etc. (Exception when Maru had that turtle style but that got figured out). So Serral is amazing but I don't think his playstyle which enables his incredible consistency would be possible with another race which has to be factored in. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 18 2024 21:54 Agh wrote: Guess we're watching different games. You can take just about any one of serral's games that aren't of him just curbstomping some poor soul, and just see every moment that another player would have failed in his place over and over again. Reynor's interview awhile back summed it up pretty nicely. When you play against him you feel just feel it. I've played against a lot of people and nothing rivals that feeling of hopelessness except for maybe matching Happy in wc3. Also when you watch him he makes it seem effortless, and errors are very infrequent and harder to spot. On the other hand someone like Maru makes many obvious errors along with some bad/questionable decisions but he's able to overcome that with raw ability. I imagine the feeling of matching Happy on WC3 ladder is similar to that Sisyphus gets when he sees his boulder | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1247 Posts
On January 18 2024 22:11 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah that's true, but I also think the race he plays has a big part in that. I think Zerg is the only race which can get away with just playing defensive macro every game and winning by reading the opponent correctly and shutting it down. Terran and Protoss need to mix it up and surprise the opponent, go for timings they don't expect etc. (Exception when Maru had that turtle style but that got figured out). So Serral is amazing but I don't think his playstyle which enables his incredible consistency would be possible with another race which has to be factored in. No, it does not need to be "factored in", because every great player in Starcraft (and Warcraft for that matter) do the great thing they do with their race. Feels like a cheap-shot to point it out for one singular player. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On January 19 2024 01:15 Balnazza wrote: No, it does not need to be "factored in", because every great player in Starcraft (and Warcraft for that matter) do the great thing they do with their race. Feels like a cheap-shot to point it out for one singular player. It has to be factored in when one says "Serral is the Goat because his play feels more dominant than Marus". It doesn't devalue his achievements though ofc | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 18 2024 22:11 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah that's true, but I also think the race he plays has a big part in that. I think Zerg is the only race which can get away with just playing defensive macro every game and winning by reading the opponent correctly and shutting it down. Terran and Protoss need to mix it up and surprise the opponent, go for timings they don't expect etc. (Exception when Maru had that turtle style but that got figured out). So Serral is amazing but I don't think his playstyle which enables his incredible consistency would be possible with another race which has to be factored in. To a degree yeah, although I guess this extends to other races too. You can’t really brainlessly bludgeon opponents with a combination of stellar mechanics and crazy unit control with any other race other than Terran. Well, brainless is hyperbole but you get my point | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 19 2024 01:21 Charoisaur wrote: It has to be factored in when one says "Serral is the Goat because his play feels more dominant than Marus". It doesn't devalue his achievements though ofc It feels more dominant because he doesn’t make all too many big mistakes like, ever. It’s just relentless. Even Dark and Rogue, Reynor have quite a lot of losses on their resumé from bad reads, bad build choices or atrocious engagements while also playing Zerg. Serral obviously also does do such things, but they’re pretty rare, comparatively speaking. It’s like playing a tennis player who just gets the ball back every time, or a golfer who always hits the fairways and green. Others may hit the odd more flashy shot, and they can win but beating the dude who just hits every regulation shot is pretty daunting. I don’t know if greatest but I’d have Serral as a lock at #1 in any ‘most consistent player of all time’ list. Well, consistently good anyway! | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
It's true that you can't play like that as zerg or terran, but that doesn't really matter, he figured out the best way to play his race. The only reason his play doesn't "inspire goosebumps" is because he plays reactively where Maru or Dark mostly win by aggression and play off-meta. | ||
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darklycid
3517 Posts
On January 19 2024 02:23 Fango wrote: If you take Starcraft as a game of who can make the fewest mistake, Serral is number 1. He dominates by scouting and reacting to everything perfectly and rarely ever makes bad decisions. It's true that you can't play like that as zerg or terran, but that doesn't really matter, he figured out the best way to play his race. The only reason his play doesn't "inspire goosebumps" is because he plays reactively where Maru or Dark mostly win by aggression and play off-meta. What is this cooked Take? While Maru won alot of Aggression at Times where He didnt See a good way to win the lategames, He shines in ultra Long macro Games Just as Well when He is playing for it. Dark is the Same as in He Has shown that He can do both very Well. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On January 19 2024 02:32 darklycid wrote: What is this cooked Take? While Maru won alot of Aggression at Times where He didnt See a good way to win the lategames, He shines in ultra Long macro Games Just as Well when He is playing for it. Dark is the Same as in He Has shown that He can do both very Well. That worked for a while but then Zergs realized that they can just take the entire map and swarm with Hydra Ling Bane, so Maru went back to being aggressive. And in TvP you obviously can't play defensive | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 19 2024 02:23 Fango wrote: If you take Starcraft as a game of who can make the fewest mistake, Serral is number 1. He dominates by scouting and reacting to everything perfectly and rarely ever makes bad decisions. It's true that you can't play like that as zerg or terran, but that doesn't really matter, he figured out the best way to play his race. The only reason his play doesn't "inspire goosebumps" is because he plays reactively where Maru or Dark mostly win by aggression and play off-meta. If I want a general to be a safe pair of hands in a theatre of war I’m going for Serral above everyone. If I want someone to lead a borderline suicide mission with some crazy plan I’m going Maru every time. There’s a reason you’ll read about the former only in history books and Hollywood makes films about the latter. In the parallel universe where Serral played T he just wouldn’t do things like somehow beating big, technical Toss armies with pure MMM because doing so puts you on an absolute knife edge of execution and I mean isn’t the optimal percentage play. And he’d be right too, but as a fan of the game it’s absolutely glorious. Like watching Byun in those games where he just pushes and drops MMM for 20 minutes and pulls it off. Is it strategically sensible to play a style where a few, sometimes only one botched engagement destroys the enter tempo-based style? I mean it really isn’t, unless you’re really deficient in other areas of the game and are a robot with insane mechanics Why I’m a big fan of clown fiestas, I find it interesting to see a game that isn’t mapped out and optimal, and how players navigate weird atypical scenarios. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26222 Posts
On January 19 2024 02:32 darklycid wrote: What is this cooked Take? While Maru won alot of Aggression at Times where He didnt See a good way to win the lategames, He shines in ultra Long macro Games Just as Well when He is playing for it. Dark is the Same as in He Has shown that He can do both very Well. It seems fair to me. For a while only Maru pulled off that defensive rock style at the elite level, and subsequently I’ve seen players sorta emulate it without quite his mastery, but it was a very off-meta TvZ style he perfected for a while. Dark is probably alone with Gumiho as the most idiosyncratic player within their race’s standards who’s won big titles. Especially for the last few years where basically every Zerg plays the same way and Dark has got even more Dark. Nobody else plays roach/ravager/infestor for like 20 minutes straight, never mind actually pulling it off like Dark, who I feel is a (tad) underrated Those players can do both aggressive games, cheese and top tier macro games, absolutely. But Serral has (largely) played the same style for his entire span as a pro player with little deviation. | ||
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Moonerz
United States459 Posts
What gets lost is that players who have played for a long time get discredited for getting ro8s/ro4s or even ro16s, because there actually were a ton of top level players. These days there are barely 32 world class players across all the regions. Being the best player in the world when there are team houses filled with players aspiring to be the best is a bigger accomplishment and tougher feat. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1906 Posts
On January 19 2024 02:59 WombaT wrote: It seems fair to me. For a while only Maru pulled off that defensive rock style at the elite level, and subsequently I’ve seen players sorta emulate it without quite his mastery, but it was a very off-meta TvZ style he perfected for a while. Dark is probably alone with Gumiho as the most idiosyncratic player within their race’s standards who’s won big titles. Especially for the last few years where basically every Zerg plays the same way and Dark has got even more Dark. Nobody else plays roach/ravager/infestor for like 20 minutes straight, never mind actually pulling it off like Dark, who I feel is a (tad) underrated Those players can do both aggressive games, cheese and top tier macro games, absolutely. But Serral has (largely) played the same style for his entire span as a pro player with little deviation. I interviewed a bunch of EU pros back in 2019 for a now defunct website. Each and every one of them said a similar thing about Serral. The common thread was they all thought Serral was faster than anyone in EU (this might have changed since then, but remember at the time Serral was coming off winning Blizzcon and was dominating WCS events) and it wouldn't matter what strategies he used or what race he played. As long as he didn't somehow lose all his talent, he'd be able to leverage his scouting, micro and multitasking against anyone regardless of race. | ||
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rwala
327 Posts
On January 19 2024 01:44 WombaT wrote: It feels more dominant because he doesn’t make all too many big mistakes like, ever. It’s just relentless. Even Dark and Rogue, Reynor have quite a lot of losses on their resumé from bad reads, bad build choices or atrocious engagements while also playing Zerg. Serral obviously also does do such things, but they’re pretty rare, comparatively speaking. It’s like playing a tennis player who just gets the ball back every time, or a golfer who always hits the fairways and green. Others may hit the odd more flashy shot, and they can win but beating the dude who just hits every regulation shot is pretty daunting. I don’t know if greatest but I’d have Serral as a lock at #1 in any ‘most consistent player of all time’ list. Well, consistently good anyway! I understand why people feel this way, and I kind of do too based on the feeling I get watching Serral play. But isn't Serral maybe the only GOAT contender to get 4-0'ed in grand finals multiple times? (That's a genuine question because there probably are others, I just can't think of them off the top.) There's other weird patches of streaky play too like losing to bottom seed Ragnarok in IEM Katowice and dropping out of double-elimination bracket in Euro finals that should otherwise be a lock for him. His struggle with ZvZ in my view are almost exclusively due to an over-reliance on scouting rather than "game sense", and therefore an inability to consistently read the game state properly if he isn't able to scout. That's more of a ZvZ thing than a Serral thing in my opinion, but then again he always has the option of playing PvZ instead like Reynor does sometimes  I don't think any of these things take away from Serral's incredible accomplishments, nor do they mean that he's not the GOAT. And obviously all the other SC2 GOAT contenders have these kinds of weird off days and stretches of streaky play too (remember when Maru fell out of the IEM Katowice group stages??). But at least in terms of results, it's not nearly the level of consistency we saw out of, let's say, Flash, during his decade of dominance in BW. That's probably a very unfair standard to hold any SC2 player to, but at the same time, it's a standard that we know is achievable. It's possible that Serral is the most consistent player to ever play the game...like I said it kind of feels like it to me. I'd just be interested in actually seeing some data or evidence to support the claim. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On January 19 2024 04:10 Mizenhauer wrote: I interviewed a bunch of EU pros back in 2019 for a now defunct website. Each and every one of them said a similar thing about Serral. The common thread was they all thought Serral was faster than anyone in EU (this might have changed since then, but remember at the time Serral was coming off winning Blizzcon and was dominating WCS events) and it wouldn't matter what strategies he used or what race he played. As long as he didn't somehow lose all his talent, he'd be able to leverage his scouting, micro and multitasking against anyone regardless of race. Funnily in 2019 the meta was super zerg favored, but the finalists at BlizzCon ended up being Dark and Reynor | ||
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