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On January 15 2024 16:56 Telephone wrote:
Region locked tournaments are pretty worthless for the GOAT conversation when the majority of the best players in the world aren't allowed to compete in them.
True, imagine if Serral wanted to go and compete in Korea. He probably swept and win everything while the rest of the Koreans are fighting over the crumbs
Fact of the matter was, Serral went to Korea and dominated two GSL’s. The Koreans tried to do the same on foreign land on the world stage but ran into a brick wall called Serral and Reynor
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On January 15 2024 10:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2024 06:37 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Serral's achievements have one asterisk though - a lot of them were from zerg-dominated 2019-2021 era.
Remember that time before Rogue retirement (and Dark somewhat slumping) where 4 top zerg players would win 80% of big tournaments, and if you remove Serral - it would still most probably be a zerg champion?
Serral was never called "the last zerg standing", his peak overlapped with zerg race peak balance-wise. Serral also doesn't have any starleague titles, which this criteria is considering as equivalent or near-equivalent to world championships. He also never played in proleague, and never competed on a high level in WoL or HotS. It seems silly to hold that against him, but you also can't ignore it for INno and Maru who dominated in both proleague and HotS, Serral beats everyone head to head, but the list is greatest of all time, not best of all time. Those guys have big achievements that Serral doesn't
No one really cares about starleagur nor the post kespa GSL’s
That’s like us saying “Koreans should not be in GOAT conversation” cause they never won a WCS trophy
No one has ever been called the “last man standing” in any race beside the current Protoss state.
The terrans always had the “4 horseman”
Zerg had the Big 4
Protoss had “we just want one toss to represent us in the top8)
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On January 15 2024 22:01 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2024 21:58 Argonauta wrote:On January 15 2024 06:53 Poopi wrote:On January 15 2024 06:37 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Serral's achievements have one asterisk though - a lot of them were from zerg-dominated 2019-2021 era.
Remember that time before Rogue retirement (and Dark somewhat slumping) where 4 top zerg players would win 80% of big tournaments, and if you remove Serral - it would still most probably be a zerg champion?
Serral was never called "the last zerg standing", his peak overlapped with zerg race peak balance-wise. That’s a big asterisk indeed. Rogue too, and Rogue was not particularly dominant until 2017+ (hydras got buffed that year as well), so I doubt Rogue will top this list even though his trophy count is the highest of all players Wasnt Rogue called patchzerg in an article here in TL because his wins were based on that hydra patch that mega favored zerg but once it was Serral, finally a foreigner that could compite in equal terms with the koreans, the one winning everything suddenly zerg was fine? It was.a skill issue not a balance issue? Narrative wise was quite blatant the bias that casters conveniently choose to forget because it was good for the game. Serral is a top player but he too benefited from zerg being strong / very strong. I am a bit flabbergasted that so many viewers in the european (and french) scene think that Serral is the "obvious" GOAT of Starcraft 2 despite all the history of the game. But for the majority of viewers, casters can push any narrative they want so it's not that surprising
Not much about 2018s results in Premier events screams "Zerg OP". In fact, not one Zerg managed to reach a GSL final that year (Maru won against three Protoss...so I guess he got lucky?). Serral also won three of his four WCS outside of ZvZ. Sure, Rogue won Katowice that year and Scarlett scooped a smaller IEM win (with some noticable participants, but not many).
I don't think the results of that year favor any race in such an extreme way that it is fair to add that as an asterisk to Serrals achievements. And you really have to be extremly out of touch with reality to claim that Maru won three GSLs with the "weakest race" that year. No way in hell is the skillgap betweem him and the korean zergs that big.
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On January 15 2024 16:56 Telephone wrote:
Region locked tournaments are pretty worthless for the GOAT conversation when the majority of the best players in the world aren't allowed to compete in them.
Then GSL post 2018 is out of the question. Because Serral has been clearly the best player from that year, and cant compete in it without moving to Korea, which is a form of region lock.
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On January 16 2024 07:22 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2024 16:56 Telephone wrote:
Region locked tournaments are pretty worthless for the GOAT conversation when the majority of the best players in the world aren't allowed to compete in them. True, imagine if Serral wanted to go and compete in Korea. He probably swept and win everything while the rest of the Koreans are fighting over the crumbs Fact of the matter was, Serral went to Korea and dominated two GSL’s. The Koreans tried to do the same on foreign land on the world stage but ran into a brick wall called Serral and Reynor
Nuff said.
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Northern Ireland27388 Posts
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight.
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On January 13 2024 05:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 03:42 sidasf wrote:
The way I view it, it comes down to which player had the highest skill-who would straight up win in a 1v1. Given that how much SC2's skill level has been increasing continuously, The goat IMO is Serral. There simply isn't any other player, who, at peak, could sit down and 1v1 Serral and beat him. Especially the people from ~2010-2016-they'd just get curb stomped. If I were to send a player in his prime, in an hypothetic figured out and perfectly balanced sc2 version, to defend humanity versus sc2 alien gods, I would send Maru without question If I had to send a Protoss I would send Zest For a Zerg I would send offline finals Rogue, or a coin toss between Serral and Dark (Life would be paid by the aliens probably  )
haha I like that last part about Life.
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On January 16 2024 07:25 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2024 10:10 Fango wrote:On January 15 2024 06:37 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Serral's achievements have one asterisk though - a lot of them were from zerg-dominated 2019-2021 era.
Remember that time before Rogue retirement (and Dark somewhat slumping) where 4 top zerg players would win 80% of big tournaments, and if you remove Serral - it would still most probably be a zerg champion?
Serral was never called "the last zerg standing", his peak overlapped with zerg race peak balance-wise. Serral also doesn't have any starleague titles, which this criteria is considering as equivalent or near-equivalent to world championships. He also never played in proleague, and never competed on a high level in WoL or HotS. It seems silly to hold that against him, but you also can't ignore it for INno and Maru who dominated in both proleague and HotS, Serral beats everyone head to head, but the list is greatest of all time, not best of all time. Those guys have big achievements that Serral doesn't No one really cares about starleagur nor the post kespa GSL’s That’s like us saying “Koreans should not be in GOAT conversation” cause they never won a WCS trophy No one has ever been called the “last man standing” in any race beside the current Protoss state. The terrans always had the “4 horseman” Zerg had the Big 4 Protoss had “we just want one toss to represent us in the top8)
Is this a troll or just someone who's only been around since 2018?
The "Big 4" zergs have only been a thing the last 4-5 years. Maru was literally nicknamed The Fourth Race back in 2014 due to his success, especially in TvP, when terran was otherwise extinct. Everything you say is false.
"No one cares about post-kespa GSLs". Alright, what about all those starleagues during kespa? Of which Maru, Zest, INno, Mvp, Rain, and Classic won multiple. I bet you still count GSL vs The World though.
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On January 16 2024 07:22 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2024 16:56 Telephone wrote:
Region locked tournaments are pretty worthless for the GOAT conversation when the majority of the best players in the world aren't allowed to compete in them. True, imagine if Serral wanted to go and compete in Korea. He probably swept and win everything while the rest of the Koreans are fighting over the crumbs Fact of the matter was, Serral went to Korea and dominated two GSL’s. The Koreans tried to do the same on foreign land on the world stage but ran into a brick wall called Serral and Reynor
Wait this guy praises GSL vs The World then says follows it up with "no one cares about Code S or SSL post 2016"? When I said should we exclude all 14 years of tournaments if they didn't include Serral, I was joking.
And Rogue won 3 World Championships that Serral participated in? Dark, soO, and TY also won 1 each.
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On January 16 2024 09:39 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 07:22 TossHeroes wrote:On January 15 2024 16:56 Telephone wrote:
Region locked tournaments are pretty worthless for the GOAT conversation when the majority of the best players in the world aren't allowed to compete in them. True, imagine if Serral wanted to go and compete in Korea. He probably swept and win everything while the rest of the Koreans are fighting over the crumbs Fact of the matter was, Serral went to Korea and dominated two GSL’s. The Koreans tried to do the same on foreign land on the world stage but ran into a brick wall called Serral and Reynor Wait this guy praises GSL vs The World then says follows it up with "no one cares about Code S or SSL post 2016"? When I said should we exclude all 14 years of tournaments if they didn't include Serral, I was joking. And Rogue won 3 World Championships that Serral participated in? Dark, soO, and TY also won 1 each.
Well those world championships obviously don't count. Only tournaments won by Serral count. And the canadian football league championship is the same level of competition as the Super Bowl.
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On January 16 2024 09:33 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 07:25 TossHeroes wrote:On January 15 2024 10:10 Fango wrote:On January 15 2024 06:37 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Serral's achievements have one asterisk though - a lot of them were from zerg-dominated 2019-2021 era.
Remember that time before Rogue retirement (and Dark somewhat slumping) where 4 top zerg players would win 80% of big tournaments, and if you remove Serral - it would still most probably be a zerg champion?
Serral was never called "the last zerg standing", his peak overlapped with zerg race peak balance-wise. Serral also doesn't have any starleague titles, which this criteria is considering as equivalent or near-equivalent to world championships. He also never played in proleague, and never competed on a high level in WoL or HotS. It seems silly to hold that against him, but you also can't ignore it for INno and Maru who dominated in both proleague and HotS, Serral beats everyone head to head, but the list is greatest of all time, not best of all time. Those guys have big achievements that Serral doesn't No one really cares about starleagur nor the post kespa GSL’s That’s like us saying “Koreans should not be in GOAT conversation” cause they never won a WCS trophy No one has ever been called the “last man standing” in any race beside the current Protoss state. The terrans always had the “4 horseman” Zerg had the Big 4 Protoss had “we just want one toss to represent us in the top8) Is this a troll or just someone who's only been around since 2018? The "Big 4" zergs have only been a thing the last 4-5 years. Maru was literally nicknamed The Fourth Race back in 2014 due to his success, especially in TvP, when terran was otherwise extinct. Everything you say is false. "No one cares about post-kespa GSLs". Alright, what about all those starleagues during kespa? Of which Maru, Zest, INno, Mvp, Rain, and Classic won multiple. I bet you still count GSL vs The World though.
he's an idiot. He has something against Koreans its so obvious.
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On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight.
Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough.
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Northern Ireland27388 Posts
On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough.
There is a flip side to every weighting.
Maru has longevity on his side, but also the other side of the coin is he’s been around so long of course he’s going to have some decent weekender results.
As I said in my post it’s less that he doesn’t had good results, more how he frequently flubbed his lines by doing stupid things that’s the tick in the minus column.
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On January 16 2024 23:41 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough. Maru has longevity on his side, but also the other side of the coin is he’s been around so long of course he’s going to have some decent weekender results.
You said this as if its a given, as if constantly hitting top8 in many tournaments for more than a decade is a choice everyone could had make and not an incredible merit than no one else has done
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On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough. Without the 9 starleagues and arguably GOAT proleague record, Maru's weekender results would make for a legendary career on their own. But still a disappointing one.
At least 5 world championships he was on track to win and threw or flubbed out of nowhere (Katowice 2018, 2020, 2021, 2023, and Blizzcon 2018). No one else has been that close to perfection and fumbled it (well soO has).
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On January 17 2024 00:37 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 23:41 WombaT wrote:On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough. Maru has longevity on his side, but also the other side of the coin is he’s been around so long of course he’s going to have some decent weekender results. You said this as if its a given, as if constantly hitting top8 in many tournaments for more than a decade is a choice everyone could had make and not an incredible merit than no one else has done
Completely agree
It's expected nowadays because the player pool is so reducted, but back in 2013 Soulkey's and Innovation's consistency at hitting ro8 GSL was very rare and definitely worthy of note, back then.
Innovation in particular I believe made a streak of ro4 (2012 s5), ro8 (2013 s1, last WoL GSL), finalist in first gsl of HotS and then ro4 in OSL (which was a gsl season 2 in everything but name and format, famously defeated by Maru's first starleague).
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On January 17 2024 03:06 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough. Without the 9 starleagues and arguably GOAT proleague record, Maru's weekender results would make for a legendary career on their own. But still a disappointing one. At least 5 world championships he was on track to win and threw or flubbed out of nowhere (Katowice 2018, 2020, 2021, 2023, and Blizzcon 2018). No one else has been that close to perfection and fumbled it (well soO has).
Your definition of being "on track to win" is a bit generous, isn't it? 2018 and 2023 are the only two I would truely account for that. '18 because of his GSL titles and 2023 because he was in the finals against Oliveira. But every other tournament you mentioned it wasn't like he dominated hard or was seen as the only favorite to win it. At some point, if your level is as high as Marus, people automatically expect you to win a tournament, but that doesn't mean you are the only one who should.
You can see the same with Serral: It always feels so dissappointing when he drops out in the Ro4/8, because that is just the level of respect people have. It is curious though that it feels like people never had that level of expectations for Rogue, so he never really "dissappointed"?
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United States1961 Posts
On January 17 2024 03:43 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2024 03:06 Fango wrote:On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough. Without the 9 starleagues and arguably GOAT proleague record, Maru's weekender results would make for a legendary career on their own. But still a disappointing one. At least 5 world championships he was on track to win and threw or flubbed out of nowhere (Katowice 2018, 2020, 2021, 2023, and Blizzcon 2018). No one else has been that close to perfection and fumbled it (well soO has). Your definition of being "on track to win" is a bit generous, isn't it? 2018 and 2023 are the only two I would truely account for that. '18 because of his GSL titles and 2023 because he was in the finals against Oliveira. But every other tournament you mentioned it wasn't like he dominated hard or was seen as the only favorite to win it. At some point, if your level is as high as Marus, people automatically expect you to win a tournament, but that doesn't mean you are the only one who should. You can see the same with Serral: It always feels so dissappointing when he drops out in the Ro4/8, because that is just the level of respect people have. It is curious though that it feels like people never had that level of expectations for Rogue, so he never really "dissappointed"?
How easily everyone forgets that Maru also lost to TY in the finals of WESG (which had the same payout as a world championship).
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On January 17 2024 04:45 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2024 03:43 Balnazza wrote:On January 17 2024 03:06 Fango wrote:On January 16 2024 21:59 Argonauta wrote:On January 16 2024 09:09 WombaT wrote:
For me the Starleague argument has nothing to do with level of opposition, and is purely a format thing. Serral’s playing the same top Koreans at internationals at the end of the day.
But it would be interesting to see how people would adjust to the slightly different demands of a prep tournament.
The flip side of this is that a weekend gauntlet is also a format, and while he’s still got some damn good results Maru has continually flubbed in brainless manner at times in said format.
There’s a flip side to arguments against certain players and their claims that has to be considered depending on what we weight. Its funny to me that this is the mantra we apply to Maru that we dont apply to any other player, Maru has won quite a few weekenders, WESG, supertournaments and King of battles. Its just that we expect him to win soo many more that the ones he has won feel like not enough. Without the 9 starleagues and arguably GOAT proleague record, Maru's weekender results would make for a legendary career on their own. But still a disappointing one. At least 5 world championships he was on track to win and threw or flubbed out of nowhere (Katowice 2018, 2020, 2021, 2023, and Blizzcon 2018). No one else has been that close to perfection and fumbled it (well soO has). Your definition of being "on track to win" is a bit generous, isn't it? 2018 and 2023 are the only two I would truely account for that. '18 because of his GSL titles and 2023 because he was in the finals against Oliveira. But every other tournament you mentioned it wasn't like he dominated hard or was seen as the only favorite to win it. At some point, if your level is as high as Marus, people automatically expect you to win a tournament, but that doesn't mean you are the only one who should. You can see the same with Serral: It always feels so dissappointing when he drops out in the Ro4/8, because that is just the level of respect people have. It is curious though that it feels like people never had that level of expectations for Rogue, so he never really "dissappointed"? How easily everyone forgets that Maru also lost to TY in the finals of WESG (which had the same payout as a world championship).
Yes, Maru placed second in the first edition of WESG in 2017, becoming champion the following year and third place in 2019, being the only sc2 player to be part of the top4 in all 3 editions of WESG.
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EPT
