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On January 13 2024 03:45 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 03:42 sidasf wrote:
There simply isn't any other player, who, at peak, could sit down and 1v1 Serral and beat him. You probably meant something else, as Serral - just like any other player - was beaten countless times.
I definitely should word it better. Correct me if I'm mistaken-but I don't think the players that beat serral in his prime were able to sustain being #1. I think neeb and gumiho took games off him, but they clearly are not contestants for number one. I feel like this games skill level has really peaked over the last 4-5 years.
If there has indeed been someone that's beaten prime serral, somewhat consistently, BUT also also otherwise cemented themselves as a potential #1-then maybe my argument is wrong! Maybe Maru? I don't know enough about him. But from what I see at the moment, there isn't a player that could beat prime serral while also being good enough to beat others and maintain a GOAT position.
On January 13 2024 04:51 luxon wrote:This is the most common trope I hear from everyone, most recently Harstem ("I wish I could go back with today's knowledge and skill and win all the tournaments back then") and then proceed to get stomped 1-6 in a "WoL/HoTs patch" Bo7 vs Scarlett link, who hasnt played these patches in ten years. Here are some measurable metrics, all of which don't suggest today's pros are better in any way. 1. inflation adjusted, players are not faster than those back then. apm is inflated due to rapidfire and other hardware mechanics that didnt exist back then (you can watch players like Rain and HerO manually click to warp in units). 2. meta and skill - the game was less stable but people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta. no builds today would work back then, and even macro today is super inefficient (terrans float a bunch of gas in the midgame, zergs triple inject hatches now because they cant keep up, which wasnt allowed back then). jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that. 3. most top pros today played back in the pre-LOTV eras and they got trashed by the pros back then. Serral got curbstomped by b-tier koreans in dreamhack group stages if you go back enough (sure he was a student, but Life was winning GSLs at 14....). This notion that if you took MVP at his prime and let him play the meta today he wouldnt be a top contender is laughable. And the way you know is because the KesPA pros who didnt retire are still at the top of the scene today. If you couldnt beat Maru or Rain back then, you sure as hell won't beat them today.There's no data I can see that would suggest players today are better.
To start off....Scarlett is an active player and is 6.5k+ mmr, she literally beat maru last year. Your opening argument does not hold any water.
1. You cannot say this definitevly, and even if it is the case, APM is a rather arbitrary mechanic. There are people in plat league that play with more APM than clem.
2. people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta.
Straight up no...a ridiculous assertion.
jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that.
And reynor and serral do 5000 other things better than jaedong ever could, and I guarantee you if Jaedong played any current 6k+ player he'd be missing more injects in the first five minutes than reynor/serral would in their ever career.
3 most top pros today played back in the pre-LOTV eras and they got trashed by the pros back then.
Yes, because they were nowhere near their prime skill level. And we're talking about players in their prime...
This notion that if you took MVP at his prime and let him play the meta today he wouldnt be a top contender is laughable.
I think that the notion that if you took MVP in his prime and let him play now, and that he'd be a top contender, is laughable. But I guess we can agree to disagree. I cannot agree with anything you have written, at all. But I respect your arguments and respect you as a person. I appreciate your perspectives.
On January 13 2024 07:17 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 04:51 luxon wrote:the people from ~2010-2016-they'd just get curb stomped. This is the most common trope I hear from everyone, most recently Harstem ("I wish I could go back with today's knowledge and skill and win all the tournaments back then") and then proceed to get stomped 1-6 in a "WoL/HoTs patch" Bo7 vs Scarlett link, who hasnt played these patches in ten years. Here are some measurable metrics, all of which don't suggest today's pros are better in any way. 1. inflation adjusted, players are not faster than those back then. apm is inflated due to rapidfire and other hardware mechanics that didnt exist back then (you can watch players like Rain and HerO manually click to warp in units). 2. meta and skill - the game was less stable but people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta. no builds today would work back then, and even macro today is super inefficient (terrans float a bunch of gas in the midgame, zergs triple inject hatches now because they cant keep up, which wasnt allowed back then). jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that. 3. most top pros today played back in the pre-LOTV eras and they got trashed by the pros back then. Serral got curbstomped by b-tier koreans in dreamhack group stages if you go back enough (sure he was a student, but Life was winning GSLs at 14....). This notion that if you took MVP at his prime and let him play the meta today he wouldnt be a top contender is laughable. And the way you know is because the KesPA pros who didnt retire are still at the top of the scene today. If you couldnt beat Maru or Rain back then, you sure as hell won't beat them today.There's no data I can see that would suggest players today are better. I think the best way to judge progression of skill is by looking at interactions that haven't changed much over time, with the best candidate being widow mine vs ling bane micro. Compared to HOTS, ling bane vs widow mine micro is MUCH better, and has been for a while. Considering that people have had longer to practice with these units this isn't surprising, and doesn't invalidate past achievements.
This is a very good point. The famed streamer and caster, Rotterdam, recently said something along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing) "Back in the WoL days, if somebody split their units against widow mines people were absolutely wowed an amazed. Nowadays it's expected by any random GM or even masters player. Goes to show how much skill level has increased since the early days".
I cannot for the life of me find this clip-maybe it was just on live stream and it never got clipped, maybe it was during HSC. Regardless, dysenterymd, this strengthens your argument, which I think is a great one. Pros over the last ~6 years do insane things that fly under the radar all the time that older pros were not able to do.
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United States33503 Posts
On January 13 2024 07:26 sidasf wrote:
[stuff]
Well, if you think greatest of all time = best/most skilled all-time, and don't mind that it will often mean that current players are the greatest, then I guess that's certainly an opinion you could have.
But you should prolly have a bit more recognition that this is generally not how fans tend to treat 'greatness' in various other sports, and generally speaking past accomplishments are well-respected and contextualized in their own time. Then again, maybe you think other sports are also stupid, so whatever 
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Canada8989 Posts
On January 13 2024 04:51 luxon wrote:This is the most common trope I hear from everyone, most recently Harstem ("I wish I could go back with today's knowledge and skill and win all the tournaments back then") and then proceed to get stomped 1-6 in a "WoL/HoTs patch" Bo7 vs Scarlett link, who hasnt played these patches in ten years. Here are some measurable metrics, all of which don't suggest today's pros are better in any way. 1. inflation adjusted, players are not faster than those back then. apm is inflated due to rapidfire and other hardware mechanics that didnt exist back then (you can watch players like Rain and HerO manually click to warp in units). 2. meta and skill - the game was less stable but people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta. no builds today would work back then, and even macro today is super inefficient (terrans float a bunch of gas in the midgame, zergs triple inject hatches now because they cant keep up, which wasnt allowed back then). jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that. 3. most top pros today played back in the pre-LOTV eras and they got trashed by the pros back then. Serral got curbstomped by b-tier koreans in dreamhack group stages if you go back enough (sure he was a student, but Life was winning GSLs at 14....). This notion that if you took MVP at his prime and let him play the meta today he wouldnt be a top contender is laughable. And the way you know is because the KesPA pros who didnt retire are still at the top of the scene today. If you couldnt beat Maru or Rain back then, you sure as hell won't beat them today.There's no data I can see that would suggest players today are better.
I mean the idea that most current pro were getting ''trashed'' is objectively wrong. Let's just take the winner/finalist of the last year. Clem (didn't play), Dark (an SSL and a GSL-SSL cross-final), Serral (didn't play - he was 15 years, come on now), Maru (an OSL and a GSL), Solar (3x dreamhack, 1 MSI, 1 SSL), Gumiho (decent player in WOL-HOTS, surprise finalist in 2023), Cure (2 GSL semi + 1 RBBG, first rotation on JinAir in proleague), Reynor (didn't play), MaxPax (didn't play), Oliveira (didn't play- was 13-14). Ain't nobody in 2023 getting owned by Paralize and Departure.
Reynor made 350 k$ in the last two years, you better believe if it was so easy for Rain or Jaedong to jump back in and beat his ass they would do it.
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"Something wasn't mechanically possible back then and now it is, so players do it because clearly they can't keep up" has to be one of the weirdest takes anyone has ever done on this...
I also think Rapid fire was around in 2014. Probably just something some pros weren't used to
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On January 13 2024 09:50 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 04:51 luxon wrote:the people from ~2010-2016-they'd just get curb stomped. This is the most common trope I hear from everyone, most recently Harstem ("I wish I could go back with today's knowledge and skill and win all the tournaments back then") and then proceed to get stomped 1-6 in a "WoL/HoTs patch" Bo7 vs Scarlett link, who hasnt played these patches in ten years. Here are some measurable metrics, all of which don't suggest today's pros are better in any way. 1. inflation adjusted, players are not faster than those back then. apm is inflated due to rapidfire and other hardware mechanics that didnt exist back then (you can watch players like Rain and HerO manually click to warp in units). 2. meta and skill - the game was less stable but people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta. no builds today would work back then, and even macro today is super inefficient (terrans float a bunch of gas in the midgame, zergs triple inject hatches now because they cant keep up, which wasnt allowed back then). jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that. 3. most top pros today played back in the pre-LOTV eras and they got trashed by the pros back then. Serral got curbstomped by b-tier koreans in dreamhack group stages if you go back enough (sure he was a student, but Life was winning GSLs at 14....). This notion that if you took MVP at his prime and let him play the meta today he wouldnt be a top contender is laughable. And the way you know is because the KesPA pros who didnt retire are still at the top of the scene today. If you couldnt beat Maru or Rain back then, you sure as hell won't beat them today.There's no data I can see that would suggest players today are better. I mean the idea that most current pro were getting ''trashed'' is objectively wrong. Let's just take the winner/finalist of the last year. Clem (didn't play), Dark (an SSL and a GSL-SSL cross-final), Serral (didn't play - he was 15 years, come on now), Maru (an OSL and a GSL), Solar (3x dreamhack, 1 MSI, 1 SSL), Gumiho (decent player in WOL-HOTS, surprise finalist in 2023), Cure (2 GSL semi + 1 RBBG, first rotation on JinAir in proleague), Reynor (didn't play), MaxPax (didn't play), Oliveira (didn't play- was 13-14). Ain't nobody in 2023 getting owned by Paralize and Departure. Reynor made 350 k$ in the last two years, you better believe if it was so easy for Rain or Jaedong to jump back in and beat his ass they would do it.
If the income numbers I've seen for BW streaming are even slightly accurate then it would never be worth it to to switch from BW to SC2 unless you can guarantee a world championship plus 3-4 other wins pear year which is a ridiculous expectation even if you think you'd be the best SC2 player. So basically no, any top BW player would never switch back to SC2 for money regardless of how they feel about their skill level vs current SC2 pros.
Players today vs players of the past is a tough thing to call. Logically you would think people get better over time but aging can decrease reaction speed and the speed to make certain decisions. Additionally I think players played way more during Kespa era and skill at something often corresponds more with how much you are currently doing it rather than your total lifetime hours. Personally if we're talking top 5-10 vs top 5-10 I'd probably bet on the current players. But if you increase that even to top 20-30 I think it's very debatable. Top 50 vs Top 50 and Kespa era stomps no question in my mind. Random GMs aren't as good as Kespa pros regardless of how many extra years they have.
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I wish that going 3 Robo on 1 base (with colossus) was an optimal build.
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1 Rogue
2 Serral
3 Maru
4 INnoVation
5 Dark
6 Zest
7 Stats
8 soO
9 TY
10 sOs
My top 10 is biased towards World Championships (BlizzCon, IEM World Championship, WESG, Gamers8) being worth more than Korean Individual leagues. It is also biased towards a heavy emphasis on top 1/2 results, as it is where most of the prize money is, and I think finalists of premier tournaments are what is most memorable in our collective mind. In my heart, Serral's the GOAT and he's got the highest peak level of skills of anyone, but Rogue's got the more impressive resume; nobody can touch his 3 World Championships, 4 Code S and 2 Super Tournament wins. Now if Serral wins/top 2 finishes at 2 more Katowice/Gamers8 events like I know he's capable of, he has the case for number 1.
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On January 13 2024 08:31 Waxangel wrote:Well, if you think greatest of all time = best/most skilled all-time, and don't mind that it will often mean that current players are the greatest, then I guess that's certainly an opinion you could have. But you should prolly have a bit more recognition that this is generally not how fans tend to treat 'greatness' in various other sports, and generally speaking past accomplishments are well-respected and contextualized in their own time. Then again, maybe you think other sports are also stupid, so whatever
I think you are confused or maybe there is something going on with the way you worded your post. Perhaps I'm having a difficult time understanding you because english is not your first langauge. Regardless, I'm very familiar with the "GOAT" terminology, and no, I don't think "other sports are stupid".
On January 13 2024 10:08 Balnazza wrote:
"Something wasn't mechanically possible back then and now it is, so players do it because clearly they can't keep up" has to be one of the weirdest takes anyone has ever done on this...
I also think Rapid fire was around in 2014. Probably just something some pros weren't used to
People are not talking about rapid fire, they are talking about things like splitting (hence splitting line bane vs widow mines) which were possible from day one.
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Canada8989 Posts
On January 13 2024 10:23 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 09:50 Nakajin wrote:On January 13 2024 04:51 luxon wrote:the people from ~2010-2016-they'd just get curb stomped. This is the most common trope I hear from everyone, most recently Harstem ("I wish I could go back with today's knowledge and skill and win all the tournaments back then") and then proceed to get stomped 1-6 in a "WoL/HoTs patch" Bo7 vs Scarlett link, who hasnt played these patches in ten years. Here are some measurable metrics, all of which don't suggest today's pros are better in any way. 1. inflation adjusted, players are not faster than those back then. apm is inflated due to rapidfire and other hardware mechanics that didnt exist back then (you can watch players like Rain and HerO manually click to warp in units). 2. meta and skill - the game was less stable but people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta. no builds today would work back then, and even macro today is super inefficient (terrans float a bunch of gas in the midgame, zergs triple inject hatches now because they cant keep up, which wasnt allowed back then). jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that. 3. most top pros today played back in the pre-LOTV eras and they got trashed by the pros back then. Serral got curbstomped by b-tier koreans in dreamhack group stages if you go back enough (sure he was a student, but Life was winning GSLs at 14....). This notion that if you took MVP at his prime and let him play the meta today he wouldnt be a top contender is laughable. And the way you know is because the KesPA pros who didnt retire are still at the top of the scene today. If you couldnt beat Maru or Rain back then, you sure as hell won't beat them today.There's no data I can see that would suggest players today are better. I mean the idea that most current pro were getting ''trashed'' is objectively wrong. Let's just take the winner/finalist of the last year. Clem (didn't play), Dark (an SSL and a GSL-SSL cross-final), Serral (didn't play - he was 15 years, come on now), Maru (an OSL and a GSL), Solar (3x dreamhack, 1 MSI, 1 SSL), Gumiho (decent player in WOL-HOTS, surprise finalist in 2023), Cure (2 GSL semi + 1 RBBG, first rotation on JinAir in proleague), Reynor (didn't play), MaxPax (didn't play), Oliveira (didn't play- was 13-14). Ain't nobody in 2023 getting owned by Paralize and Departure. Reynor made 350 k$ in the last two years, you better believe if it was so easy for Rain or Jaedong to jump back in and beat his ass they would do it. If the income numbers I've seen for BW streaming are even slightly accurate then it would never be worth it to to switch from BW to SC2 unless you can guarantee a world championship plus 3-4 other wins pear year which is a ridiculous expectation even if you think you'd be the best SC2 player. So basically no, any top BW player would never switch back to SC2 for money regardless of how they feel about their skill level vs current SC2 pros. Players today vs players of the past is a tough thing to call. Logically you would think people get better over time but aging can decrease reaction speed and the speed to make certain decisions. Additionally I think players played way more during Kespa era and skill at something often corresponds more with how much you are currently doing it rather than your total lifetime hours. Personally if we're talking top 5-10 vs top 5-10 I'd probably bet on the current players. But if you increase that even to top 20-30 I think it's very debatable. Top 50 vs Top 50 and Kespa era stomps no question in my mind. Random GMs aren't as good as Kespa pros regardless of how many extra years they have.
It's a bit of side-conversation, but I've seen those numbers too and let's just say I have doubts. To me those are like 2011 MLG telling us 5 million people tuned into their tournament. I have trouble accepting that the 10 biggest BW streamers are collectively making like 6-7 million USD a year while at the same time, Affreeca cannot fill a 200-place studio for an ASL final.
Very possible I'm just super out of touch with what's going on in the streaming world in Korea and it's all clean numbers, but it seems sketchy as hell to me.
But the point is, we can take players who didn't go back to BW like TaeJa or idk Roro.
I may agree between top 50 vs top 50, the gap between a top 50 and a top 10 players is way bigger now than it was back in the day.
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On January 13 2024 11:31 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 10:08 Balnazza wrote:
"Something wasn't mechanically possible back then and now it is, so players do it because clearly they can't keep up" has to be one of the weirdest takes anyone has ever done on this...
I also think Rapid fire was around in 2014. Probably just something some pros weren't used to People are not talking about rapid fire, they are talking about things like splitting (hence splitting line bane vs widow mines) which were possible from day one.
I was referencing this:
On January 13 2024 04:51 luxon wrote:
1. inflation adjusted, players are not faster than those back then. apm is inflated due to rapidfire and other hardware mechanics that didnt exist back then (you can watch players like Rain and HerO manually click to warp in units).
2. meta and skill - the game was less stable but people played just about as optimally as they could have given the meta. no builds today would work back then, and even macro today is super inefficient (terrans float a bunch of gas in the midgame, zergs triple inject hatches now because they cant keep up, which wasnt allowed back then). jaedong (for his lackluster sc2 results) used to hit every inject MANUALLY and spread creep at the furthest hex allowed - neither Reynor nor Serral do that.
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I can agree that for many GOAT and "the most skilled ever" are different things.
As the latter is almost always someone now - because this is how sports are.
A modern female tennis player with just 1 Grand Slam is probably objective stronger than Chris Evert or Martina Navratilova were at their peaks, with their 18+ GS tourneys.
Still those two are in top-5 or at least 100% in top-10 greatest players lists, and this modern player will be mostly forgotten after a few years and probably won't make even top-50 - if they won't win more, of course.
People still call Pele or Maradona GOATs even though modern players are much faster, stronger, better tactically, etc.
Take peak Pele and he would not make into tier-1 team probably today, let alone Brazil national team.
Football was a very, very different game back then.
With one difference though - footlball and tennis "scenes" didn't decline like video games scenes do.
So their top-50 or top-100 get stronger every decade.
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On January 13 2024 05:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 03:42 sidasf wrote:
The way I view it, it comes down to which player had the highest skill-who would straight up win in a 1v1. Given that how much SC2's skill level has been increasing continuously, The goat IMO is Serral. There simply isn't any other player, who, at peak, could sit down and 1v1 Serral and beat him. Especially the people from ~2010-2016-they'd just get curb stomped. If I were to send a player in his prime, in an hypothetic figured out and perfectly balanced sc2 version, to defend humanity versus sc2 alien gods, I would send Maru without question If I had to send a Protoss I would send Zest For a Zerg I would send offline finals Rogue, or a coin toss between Serral and Dark (Life would be paid by the aliens probably  )
I would send Mvp. I don't think any player has ever been more clutch than him. Nobody else could have pulled off that Game 7 comeback vs Squirtle, or the famous comeback vs INnoVation.
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Measuring goat by tournament wins (awarding super subjective points for each tournament) when one player has literally dominated the scene for 5 years in an unrivaled way is silly.
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United States33503 Posts
On January 13 2024 22:28 LostUsername100 wrote:
Measuring goat by tournament wins (awarding super subjective points for each tournament) when one player has literally dominated the scene for 5 years in an unrivaled way is silly.
interesting, what metric are you using to measure this unnamed player's dominance  ?
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
I am frankly appalled I wasn’t PMed for consultation on this sir! But nah I’m pumped to see the full article when it drops
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On January 12 2024 11:41 JJH777 wrote:
Tajea has some of the most overrated results besides pre-2022 Serral.
He exists in a space where people only seem capable to either over or underrate him, probably more than any other SC2 player.
I’d say he was one of the most naturally talented players we’ve seen, won plenty of titles with elite fields, but maybe had flaws to his approach which saw him come unstuck in Starleagues. Clem reminds me a little of him, he’ll play a straight up macro game most times and just try to outplay you, but if he’s a little off against an equivalent opponent, or someone plans something bespoke he could come a bit unstuck.
Peak Inno or Maru just had that extra level mechanically, although they too IMO have a similar weakness, and between his peak and his wrist-induced issues Mvp was both the mechanical god of his time and subsequently the consummate match planner.
I can’t really think of anyone else with Taeja’s level of achievement to bump him out of at least a Terran top 4 all-time. Unsure just pondering where I’d put him considering the other two races though.
His general performance that weekend and actually coming close to double all-killing IM has to be up there as one of the all-time feats in the game, and certainly some of the most hype and exciting
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Russian Federation195 Posts
Alright, alright, give us your GOAT list with Taeja, Jaedong and Polt in the top-3
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I don't get why people subtract so many points from Taeja just cus he doesn't do well in korean leagues like GSL. There are players who are very strong at Korean tournies like GSL but then don't do as well outside of that, and there are players who are the opposite like Taeja. Like, it has to be looked at in a balanced way and not one extreme or the other; it's not easy to win 2-3 GSL but it's also not easy winning 10 foreign majors/premieres.
Looking at his tournament record, there was like 2 years where he won like 5-6 tournaments EACH YEAR. Imagine playing vs all these other top players and just winning each. and. every. tournament. Could Maru or Rogue achieve that? I'm really not sure, and I'd say no because the only other player who has shown such a similar feat in winning almost every tournament they enter, actually entering lots of tournaments so that you give others plenty of chances to beat you and sour your record, AND actually still racking up several wins each year despite that is Serral and to a lesser extent Life.
Serral is #1 though because his career is filled out in a way Taeja's is lacking a lot, Serral doesn't have wins at individual Korean leagues either, but he at least has a couple GSL vs the world wins, and a World Championship. (And he's been dominating for 4 years compared to Taeja's 2).
And Life is somewhere between Serral and Taeja cus while his achievements is similar to Taeja (entering lots of foreign tournies and winning a few each year), he also has 2 GSL wins and a 2nd place at a world championship.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On January 14 2024 04:52 kaby wrote:
Alright, alright, give us your GOAT list with Taeja, Jaedong and Polt in the top-3
Jaedong is crazily underrated just because he wasn’t BW Jaedong, same with Flash. Their actual results were pretty damn good.
Polt was always a fascinating outlier in a game mostly dominated by mechanical monsters by consistently putting down results despite lacking a bit there. Even more impressive when he was doing it as effectively a part timer.
I wouldn’t stick any of them in the top 10 by any means but they were all excellent players and added a lot to the general fabric of the game.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On January 14 2024 05:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I don't get why people subtract so many points from Taeja just cus he doesn't do well in korean leagues like GSL.
Look at his tournament record, there was like 2 years where he won like 5-6 tournaments EACH YEAR. Imagine playing vs all these other top players and just winning each. and. every. tournament. Could Maru or Rogue achieve that? I'm really not sure, and I'd say no because the only other player who has shown such a similar feat in winning almost every tournament they enter, actually entering lots of tournaments so that you give others plenty of chances to beat you and sour your record, AND actually still racking up several wins each year despite that is Serral.
Taeja was also winning these tournaments against stacked fields featuring the very same players people will put above him in these kind of ranks, and often for decent money. So the argument that folks somehow weren’t really bothered doesn’t really track.
His inability to win a prep tournament does count against him when we’re talking absolute GOAT lists IMO, but prior to Serral going super Saiyan Taeja was probably the best show up at a weekender and consistently stomp all comers that we’d seen.
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EPT
