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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
Well, I think as a whole this will all help eSports grow stronger once we get through this shit storm of hatred, then we can all come and work together more peacefully as a unit.
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On June 29 2020 04:46 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 04:20 Jealous wrote:On June 29 2020 03:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 28 2020 23:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 28 2020 22:00 Zealously wrote:On June 28 2020 21:48 StarStruck wrote:On June 24 2020 17:53 Argonauta wrote:
GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2.
This is honestly worst that the betting scandals. ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. There is a good reason for the difference in impact of betting and sexual harassment scandals on esports. For betting fraud, it is directly reliant on esports itself as the vehicle to commit fraud. It can only happen given a competitive environment where there is betting and competitors can be paid to lose on purpose. For sexual harassment, esports is merely a venue for the harasser to get acquainted with targets. If esports didnt exist, the harasser could otherwise find targets through any community activity that involves other people. In that sense, sexual harassment it is not directly reliant on esports itself, although it has happened within the community. That is why betting fraud directly impacts the integrity of esports competition, whereas harassment does not affect the integrity of esports competition; it occurs on the periphery of esports, based on contacts derived from it. Abuse and harassment is a far bigger threat to the viability of esports than matchfixing and other frauds imo. The huge slice of consumers that aren't in to esports, that untapped market, would I think be far less likely to want to get into the community if they hear about widespread repugnant personal behavior in the community than if they heard that there were some rather infrequent betting scandals. All of which have been handled swiftly and decisively when they've arisen. Which still did significant damage because the deep pockets withdrew. Talking about SC2 here. That capital would be even harder to find if the impression given is 'it's full of creeps running wild!' Investors don't want to be associated with that kind of heat. I'm sure there are lots of people working as fast as they can to get a handle on this situation but the response so far has been led by individual figures in the community as far as I can tell. Twitch needs to step up more. As far as its games go, Blizzard needs to get publicly involved. Other game publishers for their games. Teams. Tournament organizers. Hopefully there is a joint statement coming soon from these big organizations that have the power regarding reform of standards of individual behavior in esports/streaming. Valid points all around IMO. I think that part of the issue is that gaming is still inextricably linked to a culture of a bygone era, when gamers and "nerds" were the only ones present in the scene - and a lot of the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then, but is now more akin to what people would blanket-term as "incel" behavior. To be perhaps a little more clear, of the people who played something like CS back in the early-mid 2000's (just as an example), many were petulant teens who found more joy in playing online Cops n' Terrorists and speaking profanities to one another than they could have in their real lives, because they were branded a "nerd," or weren't conventionally attractive, or suffered from depression, or were otherwise feeling disenfranchisement from their peers in school. This is by no means an excuse or clarion call to tolerance of such behavior, just an observation/example. Of that population of players, the ones that were most likely to stick around into the modern era are those that not only have become totally desensitized to abusive language which they both received and dished out as a consequence of being forged in those fires, but also haven't found any real life reasons to move away or to take stock of their daily habits. In other words, men in their 30's who don't have any healthy romantic relationships to speak of and who likely value the "release" they get from playing games as highly as they do their careers and interpersonal relationships. As a consequence of the time sunk into the game, these same players are not only among the better players in their respective communities, but are also likely to be leaders/managers of some sort, whether it be a team environment or an entire league or something similar. As eSports has become more mainstream, these people either feel disenfranchised from their escapist retreat because of an increasing demand for civility, or establish structures in which their behavior, both past and present, is unassailable by those immediately affected by it. So, the behaviors, standards, and outdated lexicon perpetuate into the modern era because of remnant stalwarts, the transitive property, and hierarchical structures. A lot of the people who have the most amount of power in these communities are the same people who either tolerated or participated in language that would be considered deplorable today, simply due to longevity and dedication and desensitization. It's no surprise to me that eSports, despite being a very "modern" field of competition, is lacking in adherence to current trends in PC culture. This is all to say that any changes in the direction of more awareness and accountability will not only uproot a large number of established players of games and players of the system, but a large portion of their respective fanbases - and thus, a large opposition emerges. I think that if eSports could just start over with a clean slate in every field, and promote people up through the ranks based on merit and evident character, the whole industry would be much better off. Unfortunately, that is not possible. Any action too swift which immediately removes a large swath of the participant and leadership population will not go through if the opposition is too great. The only feasible way, IMO, is gradual growth towards acceptable standards of behavior with intermittent bursts of outcry about individuals who racked up too many offenses - which is sort of the pattern we have been following, so this may be a boring take overall and I'm sorry to make anyone read this many words to see me arrive at such a conclusion. Interesting, I sort of agree with almost all of that, indeed you expanded on a point I allied to on the general acceptance of toxicity in online gaming extremely well. I think you go slightly too hard on the archetypal gamers of yesteryear being socially maladjusted, as a minor quibble It’s definitely a big factor too, equally gaming is a real outlet for hyper competitive behaviour, and is more meritocratic than the complexities of navigating adult life. It’s a bit of generalisation but masculine peer interaction does involve rather a lot of jokey trash talk, and gaming has historically been quite the masculine dominated arena. Although generally that’s couched in some degree of wit or truth, and the mocked also feel included in the camaraderie. Whereas gaming culture went far beyond that to the spamming of slurs that would be outrageous anywhere else and if you don’t like it get off the game.
As I went through my post I was getting more and more narrowed in scope as I approached what I find to be one the most extreme examples of what such a community of that time can create in an adult individual in the modern era, with the knowledge that it is indeed and absolutely a spectrum. I'm obviously not trying to say that all gamers are asocial nerd incels (in the more hateful definition thereof) or that that's how it was back then either - but it was and is certainly a subset of the community that continues onward. I agree with everything else you've said, just wanted to clarify a bit further on my ramblings above.
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Northern Ireland25342 Posts
On June 29 2020 05:56 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 04:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 29 2020 04:20 Jealous wrote:On June 29 2020 03:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 28 2020 23:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 28 2020 22:00 Zealously wrote:On June 28 2020 21:48 StarStruck wrote:On June 24 2020 17:53 Argonauta wrote:
GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2.
This is honestly worst that the betting scandals. ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. There is a good reason for the difference in impact of betting and sexual harassment scandals on esports. For betting fraud, it is directly reliant on esports itself as the vehicle to commit fraud. It can only happen given a competitive environment where there is betting and competitors can be paid to lose on purpose. For sexual harassment, esports is merely a venue for the harasser to get acquainted with targets. If esports didnt exist, the harasser could otherwise find targets through any community activity that involves other people. In that sense, sexual harassment it is not directly reliant on esports itself, although it has happened within the community. That is why betting fraud directly impacts the integrity of esports competition, whereas harassment does not affect the integrity of esports competition; it occurs on the periphery of esports, based on contacts derived from it. Abuse and harassment is a far bigger threat to the viability of esports than matchfixing and other frauds imo. The huge slice of consumers that aren't in to esports, that untapped market, would I think be far less likely to want to get into the community if they hear about widespread repugnant personal behavior in the community than if they heard that there were some rather infrequent betting scandals. All of which have been handled swiftly and decisively when they've arisen. Which still did significant damage because the deep pockets withdrew. Talking about SC2 here. That capital would be even harder to find if the impression given is 'it's full of creeps running wild!' Investors don't want to be associated with that kind of heat. I'm sure there are lots of people working as fast as they can to get a handle on this situation but the response so far has been led by individual figures in the community as far as I can tell. Twitch needs to step up more. As far as its games go, Blizzard needs to get publicly involved. Other game publishers for their games. Teams. Tournament organizers. Hopefully there is a joint statement coming soon from these big organizations that have the power regarding reform of standards of individual behavior in esports/streaming. Valid points all around IMO. I think that part of the issue is that gaming is still inextricably linked to a culture of a bygone era, when gamers and "nerds" were the only ones present in the scene - and a lot of the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then, but is now more akin to what people would blanket-term as "incel" behavior. To be perhaps a little more clear, of the people who played something like CS back in the early-mid 2000's (just as an example), many were petulant teens who found more joy in playing online Cops n' Terrorists and speaking profanities to one another than they could have in their real lives, because they were branded a "nerd," or weren't conventionally attractive, or suffered from depression, or were otherwise feeling disenfranchisement from their peers in school. This is by no means an excuse or clarion call to tolerance of such behavior, just an observation/example. Of that population of players, the ones that were most likely to stick around into the modern era are those that not only have become totally desensitized to abusive language which they both received and dished out as a consequence of being forged in those fires, but also haven't found any real life reasons to move away or to take stock of their daily habits. In other words, men in their 30's who don't have any healthy romantic relationships to speak of and who likely value the "release" they get from playing games as highly as they do their careers and interpersonal relationships. As a consequence of the time sunk into the game, these same players are not only among the better players in their respective communities, but are also likely to be leaders/managers of some sort, whether it be a team environment or an entire league or something similar. As eSports has become more mainstream, these people either feel disenfranchised from their escapist retreat because of an increasing demand for civility, or establish structures in which their behavior, both past and present, is unassailable by those immediately affected by it. So, the behaviors, standards, and outdated lexicon perpetuate into the modern era because of remnant stalwarts, the transitive property, and hierarchical structures. A lot of the people who have the most amount of power in these communities are the same people who either tolerated or participated in language that would be considered deplorable today, simply due to longevity and dedication and desensitization. It's no surprise to me that eSports, despite being a very "modern" field of competition, is lacking in adherence to current trends in PC culture. This is all to say that any changes in the direction of more awareness and accountability will not only uproot a large number of established players of games and players of the system, but a large portion of their respective fanbases - and thus, a large opposition emerges. I think that if eSports could just start over with a clean slate in every field, and promote people up through the ranks based on merit and evident character, the whole industry would be much better off. Unfortunately, that is not possible. Any action too swift which immediately removes a large swath of the participant and leadership population will not go through if the opposition is too great. The only feasible way, IMO, is gradual growth towards acceptable standards of behavior with intermittent bursts of outcry about individuals who racked up too many offenses - which is sort of the pattern we have been following, so this may be a boring take overall and I'm sorry to make anyone read this many words to see me arrive at such a conclusion. Interesting, I sort of agree with almost all of that, indeed you expanded on a point I allied to on the general acceptance of toxicity in online gaming extremely well. I think you go slightly too hard on the archetypal gamers of yesteryear being socially maladjusted, as a minor quibble It’s definitely a big factor too, equally gaming is a real outlet for hyper competitive behaviour, and is more meritocratic than the complexities of navigating adult life. It’s a bit of generalisation but masculine peer interaction does involve rather a lot of jokey trash talk, and gaming has historically been quite the masculine dominated arena. Although generally that’s couched in some degree of wit or truth, and the mocked also feel included in the camaraderie. Whereas gaming culture went far beyond that to the spamming of slurs that would be outrageous anywhere else and if you don’t like it get off the game. As I went through my post I was getting more and more narrowed in scope as I approached what I find to be one the most extreme examples of what such a community of that time can create in an adult individual in the modern era, with the knowledge that it is indeed and absolutely a spectrum. I'm obviously not trying to say that all gamers are asocial nerd incels (in the more hateful definition thereof) or that that's how it was back then either - but it was and is certainly a subset of the community that continues onward. I agree with everything else you've said, just wanted to clarify a bit further on my ramblings above.
Appreciated, indeed as I said I largely agreed just had that minor disagreement on that particular focus.
I think the perception of gaming culture being as toxic as it is because it was created by nerds lacking social skills is both wrong, and indeed harmful in ways.
It’s easier to rationalise norms being so toxic if they’re norms created and reinforced by dysfunctional people, it’s that bit more complex and unpalatable if it’s otherwise normal people behaving in such manners too because that is the cultural standard.
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I don't know if that stereotype of gamers as toxic is broadly dominant in society today, but in mainstream coverage of esports I do get a sense of awkwardness still. They haven't found their groove in how to present it. How do we sell this. Where is the drama. Because in esports and gaming in general, the real drama is mostly kept behind the scenes and was usually very juvenile and a lot of it still is today. That kind of drama isn't going to sell. The drama that the audience gets comes almost entirely from the competition itself. That's a bit harder to sell. That's why there's pro rasslin and every sport also sells the personalities of its stars along with their prowess.
This is some drama we're having right now and it isn't the kind that sells either. It increases the divide between the industry and the general public. Dreams like having esports at the Olympics get even dreamier if this problem isn't fixed.
It doesn't compare to the damage done to the people victimized but this kind of vile behavior robs people of enjoying vidya games and robs other people of finding out if they'd enjoy vidya games and enjoying vidya games is the whole damn point at least it was when I was 12. People who abuse others rob all of us even though most it is completely indirectly.
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On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
....
Digging post from this thread... its a gold mine of mysogynistic ideas. Educating women to react properly, where did you get that from?
Maybe educating men to handle better frustration should be a better response, dont you think?
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The time for rapid to come forward and own his mistakes or deny them have gone. It is truly disappointing that instead of facing his accusers he continues to hide out. I don't welcome rapid here anymore and don't welcome him anywhere near the esports scene ever. His reputation to me is tarnished and his inaction speaks more words then what he could have said. His inability to face his fans and people who watched him shows that he has no integrity. I hope that rapid will not return here again and never be apart of anything to do with Teamliquid.
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Did rapid do things in addition to sending unsolicited dick picks?
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On June 29 2020 10:50 greenturtle23 wrote:
Did rapid do things in addition to sending unsolicited dick picks?
Groomed, exploited, gaslit, and psychologically abused at least one woman who was in a long-term relationship with him. More information on that is in the OP.
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On June 29 2020 11:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 10:50 greenturtle23 wrote:
Did rapid do things in addition to sending unsolicited dick picks? Groomed, exploited, gaslit, and psychologically abused at least one woman who was in a long-term relationship with him. More information on that is in the OP.
Not to mention waiting for women to be in 1-on-1 situations with him wherein there was a power imbalance and talking about his dick, and asking women to tell him he has a big dick for his own sexual satisfaction.
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On June 29 2020 11:31 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 11:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 29 2020 10:50 greenturtle23 wrote:
Did rapid do things in addition to sending unsolicited dick picks? Groomed, exploited, gaslit, and psychologically abused at least one woman who was in a long-term relationship with him. More information on that is in the OP. Not to mention waiting for women to be in 1-on-1 situations with him wherein there was a power imbalance and talking about his dick, and asking women to tell him he has a big dick for his own sexual satisfaction.
Eww
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He is indeed a big dick. Fuck that guy.
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I'm sorry for all the bs that you had to live through GreenHorizons. It's good that we get all of this out in the open so we can do better and get rid of all this crap.
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That Avilo stuff is dark.
I am also disappointed by Rapid's behavior, if he has fantasies in those directions I think it is abuse of status to voice them in that way. I still see degrees here. Rapid harassed some with his sexual fixation. Bad for the targets, also embarrassing for him. Avilo massively stalked and pressured someone. Seems much worse, and a lot of evidence was presented.
The JP stuff, I read his views on it and find it manipulating. He admits some general misbehavior but does not really reflect on his impact, at least that is how I read it. He tries to save face. I believe both sides in this story tell a subjective truth, but am still disappointed by JP's handling: Telling us how important he is.
Redeye's views on the accusations against himself are also strange in my opinion. Where I would like to have him be clear, he is not. He did not regain my trust. In order to get there where he is, maybe it is an advantage to not always be nice. I also don't think that he would act intentionally egoistic. But I am not sure anymore if he is the right man in the right place.
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Northern Ireland25342 Posts
There can be a reasonably fine line between having to occasionally crack the whip to keep a ship sailing smooth and creating a workplace environment full of bullying and harassment.
Haven’t gotten round to fully reading the Redeye related stuff so I’ll largely not comment there.
In a wider cultural context, Gordon Ramsay being rewarded for shouting at low paid restaurant workers he’s ostensibly there to help, or other positive media representations of such methods really don’t help.
Redeye isn’t some crazy outlier here, a considerable part of the population think being dicks to subordinates in workplaces is fine as long as it gets results.
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On June 29 2020 21:07 [F_]aths wrote:
That Avilo stuff is dark.
I am also disappointed by Rapid's behavior, if he has fantasies in those directions I think it is abuse of status to voice them in that way. I still see degrees here. Rapid harassed some with his sexual fixation. Bad for the targets, also embarrassing for him. Avilo massively stalked and pressured someone. Seems much worse, and a lot of evidence was presented.
The JP stuff, I read his views on it and find it manipulating. He admits some general misbehavior but does not really reflect on his impact, at least that is how I read it. He tries to save face. I believe both sides in this story tell a subjective truth, but am still disappointed by JP's handling: Telling us how important he is.
Redeye's views on the accusations against himself are also strange in my opinion. Where I would like to have him be clear, he is not. He did not regain my trust. In order to get there where he is, maybe it is an advantage to not always be nice. I also don't think that he would act intentionally egoistic. But I am not sure anymore if he is the right man in the right place.
I think the problem with the Redeye stuff is that the accusation itself wasn't particularly coherent from what I read of it. The google doc that the accuser wrote was very vague and confusing to follow while he's since made accusations that Redeye abused his wife and kids which wasn't in the original statement. I encourage people to draw their own conclusions and correct me if I'm wrong, however, it seems a lot more like a disgruntled former employee going after a boss he didn't like.
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On June 29 2020 21:07 [F_]aths wrote:
That Avilo stuff is dark.
I am also disappointed by Rapid's behavior, if he has fantasies in those directions I think it is abuse of status to voice them in that way. I still see degrees here. Rapid harassed some with his sexual fixation. Bad for the targets, also embarrassing for him. Avilo massively stalked and pressured someone. Seems much worse, and a lot of evidence was presented.
The JP stuff, I read his views on it and find it manipulating. He admits some general misbehavior but does not really reflect on his impact, at least that is how I read it. He tries to save face. I believe both sides in this story tell a subjective truth, but am still disappointed by JP's handling: Telling us how important he is.
Redeye's views on the accusations against himself are also strange in my opinion. Where I would like to have him be clear, he is not. He did not regain my trust. In order to get there where he is, maybe it is an advantage to not always be nice. I also don't think that he would act intentionally egoistic. But I am not sure anymore if he is the right man in the right place.
Well said and pretty much my sentiments at this point.
On June 29 2020 17:47 Heartland wrote:
I'm sorry for all the bs that you had to live through GreenHorizons. It's good that we get all of this out in the open so we can do better and get rid of all this crap.
I really do appreciate it. It's not about me though.
I was lucky enough to be able to weather the storms. I could find safe harbor when times were especially rough (usually found outside gaming communities). I am lucky enough to be relatively capable of defending myself and to not have borne the worst of it in many cases. Now it's not like I didn't have to put in the time, work on my communication skills, and weather some blows to get to this point, but I recognize I was only able to do it because I had conditions beyond my control conducive to that outcome.
This moment is about the people who weren't so lucky and to make sure there aren't more, because every single individual instance of losing someone (even a piece of someone) in this toxic spiral is a tragedy imo.
This moment is for the people, that for one reason or another, aren't a part of this or any gaming communities. Because the mistakes were already made and in the most extreme circumstances the damages wholly irreparable.
Places like these (and gaming communities in general) could be havens for people where every other place (including 'irl' and even their homes) is full of the most vile and unsettling vitriol. TL specifically could be a place where gamers know that they aren't sheltered entirely from the greater world (which includes unpleasant things and people that disagree with you) but that they have a community willing to work through things sincerely and arrive at a better understanding of each other and a mutually respectful existence (which sometimes means ideas or practices that seem acceptable/harmless have to be ceased entirely, even when that's not fun or easy).
It doesn't have to be though. It can be like every other cesspool on the internet, or somewhere in between. That's really up to us as communities and the owners of the house/s.
My $0.02 is that I doubt whatever these "industry professionals" come up with to address the systemic issues that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc bring to gaming would hold a candle to what the minds and skills of TL could put together if we really wanted to.
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I'd say if a lot of people say "Yes, RedEye is horrible to work with" then the chances are that they're a generally horrible person to work with. That's not just a personal beef, that's one individual being the epicentre of unhappiness. Given that he's obviously a locus of power in eSports (hah) the fact that he's an angry and vindictive person is particularly harmful for the scene.
The response to threaten Banks should he make anything public is basically a perfect reason for why this needs to be made public.
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On June 29 2020 21:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 21:07 [F_]aths wrote:
That Avilo stuff is dark.
I am also disappointed by Rapid's behavior, if he has fantasies in those directions I think it is abuse of status to voice them in that way. I still see degrees here. Rapid harassed some with his sexual fixation. Bad for the targets, also embarrassing for him. Avilo massively stalked and pressured someone. Seems much worse, and a lot of evidence was presented.
The JP stuff, I read his views on it and find it manipulating. He admits some general misbehavior but does not really reflect on his impact, at least that is how I read it. He tries to save face. I believe both sides in this story tell a subjective truth, but am still disappointed by JP's handling: Telling us how important he is.
Redeye's views on the accusations against himself are also strange in my opinion. Where I would like to have him be clear, he is not. He did not regain my trust. In order to get there where he is, maybe it is an advantage to not always be nice. I also don't think that he would act intentionally egoistic. But I am not sure anymore if he is the right man in the right place.
Well said and pretty much my sentiments at this point. Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 17:47 Heartland wrote:
I'm sorry for all the bs that you had to live through GreenHorizons. It's good that we get all of this out in the open so we can do better and get rid of all this crap. I really do appreciate it. It's not about me though. I was lucky enough to be able to weather the storms. I could find safe harbor when times were especially rough (usually found outside gaming communities). I am lucky enough to be relatively capable of defending myself and to not have borne the worst of it in many cases. Now it's not like I didn't have to put in the time, work on my communication skills, and weather some blows to get to this point, but I recognize I was only able to do it because I had conditions beyond my control conducive to that outcome. This moment is about the people who weren't so lucky and to make sure there aren't more, because every single individual instance of losing someone (even a piece of someone) in this toxic spiral is a tragedy imo. This moment is for the people, that for one reason or another, aren't a part of this or any gaming communities. Because the mistakes were already made and in the most extreme circumstances the damages wholly irreparable. Places like these (and gaming communities in general) could be havens for people where every other place (including 'irl' and even their homes) is full of the most vile and unsettling vitriol. TL specifically could be a place where gamers know that they aren't sheltered entirely from the greater world (which includes unpleasant things and people that disagree with you) but that they have a community willing to work through things sincerely and arrive at a better understanding of each other and a mutually respectful existence (which sometimes means ideas or practices that seem acceptable/harmless have to be ceased entirely, even when that's not fun or easy). It doesn't have to be though. It can be like every other cesspool on the internet, or somewhere in between. That's really up to us as communities and the owners of the house/s. My $0.02 is that I doubt whatever these "industry professionals" come up with to address the systemic issues that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc bring to gaming would hold a candle to what the minds and skills of TL could put together if we really wanted to.
You're absolutely right. These are the kinds of issues that we as a community can't hope to work through without having an honest and respectful dialogue with each other even in the event that we don't agree or hold opposing opinions that doesn't just devolve into proverbial shit slinging. I know we disagreed earlier in the thread but this is the kind of attitude we as a community (and maybe even as a society) need to embrace where we aren't afraid to confront the hard truths and do what is necessary to improve the livelihood of everyone involved. Be that in the esports community or in others.
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On June 29 2020 21:58 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I'd say if a lot of people say "Yes, RedEye is horrible to work with" then the chances are that they're a generally horrible person to work with. That's not just a personal beef, that's one individual being the epicentre of unhappiness. Given that he's obviously a locus of power in eSports (hah) the fact that he's an angry and vindictive person is particularly harmful for the scene.
The response to threaten Banks should he make anything public is basically a perfect reason for why this needs to be made public.
Yeah I was toying with an edit to my post that even if the accusations of assault and abuse aren't true then he has definitely come across as a dick to several people that worked with him.
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On June 29 2020 21:59 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 21:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2020 21:07 [F_]aths wrote:
That Avilo stuff is dark.
I am also disappointed by Rapid's behavior, if he has fantasies in those directions I think it is abuse of status to voice them in that way. I still see degrees here. Rapid harassed some with his sexual fixation. Bad for the targets, also embarrassing for him. Avilo massively stalked and pressured someone. Seems much worse, and a lot of evidence was presented.
The JP stuff, I read his views on it and find it manipulating. He admits some general misbehavior but does not really reflect on his impact, at least that is how I read it. He tries to save face. I believe both sides in this story tell a subjective truth, but am still disappointed by JP's handling: Telling us how important he is.
Redeye's views on the accusations against himself are also strange in my opinion. Where I would like to have him be clear, he is not. He did not regain my trust. In order to get there where he is, maybe it is an advantage to not always be nice. I also don't think that he would act intentionally egoistic. But I am not sure anymore if he is the right man in the right place.
Well said and pretty much my sentiments at this point. On June 29 2020 17:47 Heartland wrote:
I'm sorry for all the bs that you had to live through GreenHorizons. It's good that we get all of this out in the open so we can do better and get rid of all this crap. I really do appreciate it. It's not about me though. I was lucky enough to be able to weather the storms. I could find safe harbor when times were especially rough (usually found outside gaming communities). I am lucky enough to be relatively capable of defending myself and to not have borne the worst of it in many cases. Now it's not like I didn't have to put in the time, work on my communication skills, and weather some blows to get to this point, but I recognize I was only able to do it because I had conditions beyond my control conducive to that outcome. This moment is about the people who weren't so lucky and to make sure there aren't more, because every single individual instance of losing someone (even a piece of someone) in this toxic spiral is a tragedy imo. This moment is for the people, that for one reason or another, aren't a part of this or any gaming communities. Because the mistakes were already made and in the most extreme circumstances the damages wholly irreparable. Places like these (and gaming communities in general) could be havens for people where every other place (including 'irl' and even their homes) is full of the most vile and unsettling vitriol. TL specifically could be a place where gamers know that they aren't sheltered entirely from the greater world (which includes unpleasant things and people that disagree with you) but that they have a community willing to work through things sincerely and arrive at a better understanding of each other and a mutually respectful existence (which sometimes means ideas or practices that seem acceptable/harmless have to be ceased entirely, even when that's not fun or easy). It doesn't have to be though. It can be like every other cesspool on the internet, or somewhere in between. That's really up to us as communities and the owners of the house/s. My $0.02 is that I doubt whatever these "industry professionals" come up with to address the systemic issues that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc bring to gaming would hold a candle to what the minds and skills of TL could put together if we really wanted to. You're absolutely right. These are the kinds of issues that we as a community can't hope to work through without having an honest and respectful dialogue with each other even in the event that we don't agree or hold opposing opinions that doesn't just devolve into proverbial shit slinging. I know we disagreed earlier in the thread but this is the kind of attitude we as a community (and maybe even as a society) need to embrace where we aren't afraid to confront the hard truths and do what is necessary to improve the livelihood of everyone involved. Be that in the esports community or in others.
During my mandated 2-day break (gotta love those European worker protections  )I had time to discover (I think again because I vaguely remember reading about this) that the automated ban thing making ban reasons public was an addition to the site that met, we'll say... fierce opposition from staff  .
Which is to say I do think growth and adaptation to changing circumstances (there's been great variation in traffic over the years) is fully within the capabilities of everyone involved. Unfortunately it is very easy to get comfortable and stuck in our ways. To see change as a threat rather than opportunity. To adopt a mentality that says "I know better" rather than risk someone seen as lesser having something to offer.
That's not to advocate careless and absolute tolerance though. Just as the days of debating some of the more egregiously problematic behavior are behind us, so to should we look forward to the day that we deserve to be truly shocked that the kind of behavior alleged in the OP could be allowed to fester for so long.
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EPT
