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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 28 2020 23:11 Timebon3s wrote:
Has anyone heard from Rapid after this thread was made? It would be interesting to hear both sides of the story.
No.
Please take the time and read through all the links in the OP.
In the latest one about Rapid (I think) it s mentioned by a victim, that he tried to do damage control with her to prevent further victims to speak out.
I understand, that you re not going to read through all 50+ pages of the thread, so please belive me with this one:
We as a community came to the conclusion, that with the amount of stories brought up to light. we re beliving them and Rapid needs serious help.
We hope that the consequences he allready faces for his action will
1) make him regret his actions, try to do better and possible consult medical/psychlogical help
2) cases like this will appear less often, because offenders will not just get away with it
3) Our community and tournament organisers do better and try to prevent such things in the future by putting sexual harasment policies in place.
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On June 28 2020 21:05 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:37 tskarzyn wrote:
It's depressing seeing adults with so little agency they don't feel they can tell a lonely nerd to cut the shit when they make the occasional awkward pass or inappropriate comment. TLO had it right - call them out in front of others and it'll stop. a lot of them aren't adults or have become adults and when they entered the industry were kids. As for the whole Korean stuff things like TLO described where there was touching or coaches/team managers abusing players was unfortunately a little more common. It happened in BW, League and I am sure many other games sadly. Some of it has been documented.
Fair point if they aren't adults, but life is messy and I don't think we help anyone by socializing them to believe they are hapless victims. The bar requiring outside help used to be sexual assault. Now it is lewd jokes. When do we tell these people sorry, this is not our business and you need to figure it out privately like an adult?
User was warned for this post.
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On June 28 2020 10:03 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 09:37 nath wrote:
Why was the word sexual removed from the title? Are we trying to obfuscate or minimize what happened, or are there legitimately lots of non-sexual stories being added to the thread? There are legitimately non-sexual stories being added to the thread and having even one is enough to make "Sexual harassment/abuse" an inaccurate thread title. Let's focus on the actual stories and not dwell in the meta-meta-meta level, shall we?
It is not the meta-meta-meta level, and your point is taken but I disagree. For example, if I posted a thread with 20 stories of harassment against black Americans, and 1 story of harassment against white Americans, "Black Lives Matter" would indeed be a technically inaccurate part of the title. Does that mean we should name the thread "All Lives Matter" instead? My opinion is: No, we should not.
That said I am all for focusing on the actual stories instead. I am happy to see a lot more support for the victims here than expected, and I am very optimistic about how our community is handling this in general.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 29 2020 01:37 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 10:03 Jealous wrote:On June 28 2020 09:37 nath wrote:
Why was the word sexual removed from the title? Are we trying to obfuscate or minimize what happened, or are there legitimately lots of non-sexual stories being added to the thread? There are legitimately non-sexual stories being added to the thread and having even one is enough to make "Sexual harassment/abuse" an inaccurate thread title. Let's focus on the actual stories and not dwell in the meta-meta-meta level, shall we? It is not the meta-meta-meta level, and your point is taken but I disagree. For example, if I posted a thread with 20 stories of harassment against black Americans, and 1 story of harassment against white Americans, "Black Lives Matter" would indeed be a technically inaccurate part of the title. Does that mean we should name the thread "All Lives Matter" instead? My opinion is: No, we should not. That said I am all for focusing on the actual stories instead. I am happy to see a lot more support for the victims here than expected, and I am very optimistic about how our community is handling this in general.
I changed the title because it does not describe, for example, the rather extensive allegations against Redeye, and other stories that aren't explicitly sexual in nature but rather demonstrating a rather widespread culture of power abuse. The intent absolutely was not to in any way minimize what has happened or the overtly sexual nature of most allegations - it simply did not seem entirely accurate.
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If this new stuff about Redeye is true, that the has beaten his wheelchair bound ex wife, he needs to be deleted from every existing company. What a disgrace of human being would be
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On June 28 2020 23:37 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 22:00 Zealously wrote:On June 28 2020 21:48 StarStruck wrote:On June 24 2020 17:53 Argonauta wrote:
GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2.
This is honestly worst that the betting scandals. ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. There is a good reason for the difference in impact of betting and sexual harassment scandals on esports. For betting fraud, it is directly reliant on esports itself as the vehicle to commit fraud. It can only happen given a competitive environment where there is betting and competitors can be paid to lose on purpose. For sexual harassment, esports is merely a venue for the harasser to get acquainted with targets. If esports didnt exist, the harasser could otherwise find targets through any community activity that involves other people. In that sense, sexual harassment it is not directly reliant on esports itself, although it has happened within the community. That is why betting fraud directly impacts the integrity of esports competition, whereas harassment does not affect the integrity of esports competition; it occurs on the periphery of esports, based on contacts derived from it.
Abuse and harassment is a far bigger threat to the viability of esports than matchfixing and other frauds imo. The huge slice of consumers that aren't in to esports, that untapped market, would I think be far less likely to want to get into the community if they hear about widespread repugnant personal behavior in the community than if they heard that there were some rather infrequent betting scandals. All of which have been handled swiftly and decisively when they've arisen. Which still did significant damage because the deep pockets withdrew. Talking about SC2 here. That capital would be even harder to find if the impression given is 'it's full of creeps running wild!' Investors don't want to be associated with that kind of heat.
I'm sure there are lots of people working as fast as they can to get a handle on this situation but the response so far has been led by individual figures in the community as far as I can tell. Twitch needs to step up more. As far as its games go, Blizzard needs to get publicly involved. Other game publishers for their games. Teams. Tournament organizers. Hopefully there is a joint statement coming soon from these big organizations that have the power regarding reform of standards of individual behavior in esports/streaming.
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lol
User was warned for this post
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 29 2020 03:46 Sparkman33 wrote:
lol
?
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Understand the need for a safe space, but if we can't debate this topic IRL without serious consequences, can't debate it online under a real ID, and can't even debate it in a gaming forum, when are we going to have the debate? e Are we just going to indiscriminately destroy people for any offense and equate the very serious trauma of domestic abuse with the sort of thing that teenagers used to be equipped to deal with on their own? You don't help someone by infantalizing them.
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On June 29 2020 02:14 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 01:37 nath wrote:On June 28 2020 10:03 Jealous wrote:On June 28 2020 09:37 nath wrote:
Why was the word sexual removed from the title? Are we trying to obfuscate or minimize what happened, or are there legitimately lots of non-sexual stories being added to the thread? There are legitimately non-sexual stories being added to the thread and having even one is enough to make "Sexual harassment/abuse" an inaccurate thread title. Let's focus on the actual stories and not dwell in the meta-meta-meta level, shall we? It is not the meta-meta-meta level, and your point is taken but I disagree. For example, if I posted a thread with 20 stories of harassment against black Americans, and 1 story of harassment against white Americans, "Black Lives Matter" would indeed be a technically inaccurate part of the title. Does that mean we should name the thread "All Lives Matter" instead? My opinion is: No, we should not. That said I am all for focusing on the actual stories instead. I am happy to see a lot more support for the victims here than expected, and I am very optimistic about how our community is handling this in general. I changed the title because it does not describe, for example, the rather extensive allegations against Redeye, and other stories that aren't explicitly sexual in nature but rather demonstrating a rather widespread culture of power abuse. The intent absolutely was not to in any way minimize what has happened or the overtly sexual nature of most allegations - it simply did not seem entirely accurate.
Did I miss a post about extensive allegations against RedEye? From what I've read he was a jerk (not a surprise after watching like 5 mins on WCS with him), but no more than lots of my coworkers and bosses?
Personally, if the topic was being broadened, seems the rampant racism in the industry/communities and harassment/abuse that comes along with that would be more natural to add than what I've read is alleged against RedEye
Just got to that part. That's a lot worse than insulting people for sweating (the worst I had read up until those allegations).
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 29 2020 04:06 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 02:14 Zealously wrote:On June 29 2020 01:37 nath wrote:On June 28 2020 10:03 Jealous wrote:On June 28 2020 09:37 nath wrote:
Why was the word sexual removed from the title? Are we trying to obfuscate or minimize what happened, or are there legitimately lots of non-sexual stories being added to the thread? There are legitimately non-sexual stories being added to the thread and having even one is enough to make "Sexual harassment/abuse" an inaccurate thread title. Let's focus on the actual stories and not dwell in the meta-meta-meta level, shall we? It is not the meta-meta-meta level, and your point is taken but I disagree. For example, if I posted a thread with 20 stories of harassment against black Americans, and 1 story of harassment against white Americans, "Black Lives Matter" would indeed be a technically inaccurate part of the title. Does that mean we should name the thread "All Lives Matter" instead? My opinion is: No, we should not. That said I am all for focusing on the actual stories instead. I am happy to see a lot more support for the victims here than expected, and I am very optimistic about how our community is handling this in general. I changed the title because it does not describe, for example, the rather extensive allegations against Redeye, and other stories that aren't explicitly sexual in nature but rather demonstrating a rather widespread culture of power abuse. The intent absolutely was not to in any way minimize what has happened or the overtly sexual nature of most allegations - it simply did not seem entirely accurate. Did I miss a post about extensive allegations against RedEye? From what I've read he was a jerk (not a surprise after watching like 5 mins on WCS with him), but no more than lots of my coworkers and bosses? Personally, if the topic was being broadened, seems the rampant racism in the industry/communities and harassment/abuse that comes along with that would be more natural to add than what I've read is alleged against RedEye
Welcome back.
As with most things in life these are all linked phenomena, indeed the general acceptance within gaming of toxic behaviour and BM as being part and parcel of the online gaming experience is real factor as well. One that’s sorely overlooked IMO
That said there is something to be said for specificity too I suppose.
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On June 29 2020 03:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 23:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 28 2020 22:00 Zealously wrote:On June 28 2020 21:48 StarStruck wrote:On June 24 2020 17:53 Argonauta wrote:
GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2.
This is honestly worst that the betting scandals. ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. There is a good reason for the difference in impact of betting and sexual harassment scandals on esports. For betting fraud, it is directly reliant on esports itself as the vehicle to commit fraud. It can only happen given a competitive environment where there is betting and competitors can be paid to lose on purpose. For sexual harassment, esports is merely a venue for the harasser to get acquainted with targets. If esports didnt exist, the harasser could otherwise find targets through any community activity that involves other people. In that sense, sexual harassment it is not directly reliant on esports itself, although it has happened within the community. That is why betting fraud directly impacts the integrity of esports competition, whereas harassment does not affect the integrity of esports competition; it occurs on the periphery of esports, based on contacts derived from it. Abuse and harassment is a far bigger threat to the viability of esports than matchfixing and other frauds imo. The huge slice of consumers that aren't in to esports, that untapped market, would I think be far less likely to want to get into the community if they hear about widespread repugnant personal behavior in the community than if they heard that there were some rather infrequent betting scandals. All of which have been handled swiftly and decisively when they've arisen. Which still did significant damage because the deep pockets withdrew. Talking about SC2 here. That capital would be even harder to find if the impression given is 'it's full of creeps running wild!' Investors don't want to be associated with that kind of heat. I'm sure there are lots of people working as fast as they can to get a handle on this situation but the response so far has been led by individual figures in the community as far as I can tell. Twitch needs to step up more. As far as its games go, Blizzard needs to get publicly involved. Other game publishers for their games. Teams. Tournament organizers. Hopefully there is a joint statement coming soon from these big organizations that have the power regarding reform of standards of individual behavior in esports/streaming.
Valid points all around IMO. I think that part of the issue is that gaming is still inextricably linked to a culture of a bygone era, when gamers and "nerds" were the only ones present in the scene - and a lot of the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then, but is now more akin to what people would blanket-term as "incel" behavior.
To be perhaps a little more clear, of the people who played something like CS back in the early-mid 2000's (just as an example), many were petulant teens who found more joy in playing online Cops n' Terrorists and speaking profanities to one another than they could have in their real lives, because they were branded a "nerd," or weren't conventionally attractive, or suffered from depression, or were otherwise feeling disenfranchisement from their peers in school. This is by no means an excuse or clarion call to tolerance of such behavior, just an observation/example. Of that population of players, the ones that were most likely to stick around into the modern era are those that not only have become totally desensitized to abusive language which they both received and dished out as a consequence of being forged in those fires, but also haven't found any real life reasons to move away or to take stock of their daily habits. In other words, men in their 30's who don't have any healthy romantic relationships to speak of and who likely value the "release" they get from playing games as highly as they do their careers and interpersonal relationships. As a consequence of the time sunk into the game, these same players are not only among the better players in their respective communities, but are also likely to be leaders/managers of some sort, whether it be a team environment or an entire league or something similar. As eSports has become more mainstream, these people either feel disenfranchised from their escapist retreat because of an increasing demand for civility, or establish structures in which their behavior, both past and present, is unassailable by those immediately affected by it.
So, the behaviors, standards, and outdated lexicon perpetuate into the modern era because of remnant stalwarts, the transitive property, and hierarchical structures. A lot of the people who have the most amount of power in these communities are the same people who either tolerated or participated in language that would be considered deplorable today, simply due to longevity and dedication and desensitization. It's no surprise to me that eSports, despite being a very "modern" field of competition, is lacking in adherence to current trends in PC culture. This is all to say that any changes in the direction of more awareness and accountability will not only uproot a large number of established players of games and players of the system, but a large portion of their respective fanbases - and thus, a large opposition emerges.
I think that if eSports could just start over with a clean slate in every field, and promote people up through the ranks based on merit and evident character, the whole industry would be much better off. Unfortunately, that is not possible. Any action too swift which immediately removes a large swath of the participant and leadership population will not go through if the opposition is too great. The only feasible way, IMO, is gradual growth towards acceptable standards of behavior with intermittent bursts of outcry about individuals who racked up too many offenses - which is sort of the pattern we have been following, so this may be a boring take overall and I'm sorry to make anyone read this many words to see me arrive at such a conclusion.
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 29 2020 04:01 tskarzyn wrote:
Understand the need for a safe space, but if we can't debate this topic IRL without serious consequences, can't debate it online under a real ID, and can't even debate it in a gaming forum, when are we going to have the debate? e Are we just going to indiscriminately destroy people for any offense and equate the very serious trauma of domestic abuse with the sort of thing that teenagers used to be equipped to deal with on their own? You don't help someone by infantalizing them.
What’s to debate here though?
Specifically the past point anyway. If teenagers were previously equipped to deal with shitty behaviour because that was the culture of the time, that’s not a plus point to the teens of yesteryear it’s a damning indictment about historical cultural norms.
Accepting awful behaviour for whatever reason does not build character or resilience. The vast majority of people I know with anxiety problems were either bullied at school or had an abusive partner.
Anyway that aside, yes there should be limits in a purge of bad behaviour in the community, I can’t speak for others who have previously echoed similar sentiments to myself, my guess is they, like me don’t want people ostracised for a joke that went down badly, or things they said on Twitter as a teenager.
The main incidents of discussion being Rapid, TLO and Pengwin’s re coaches in team housed and now Redeye are clearly incidences of alleged behaviour that strays far beyond that and into the land of abuse of various kinds.
As a local amateur caster of some 8 years in a scene that loves shock humour, my jokes have all been tolerated because people know me, my sense of humour etc. I regret one joke where I riffed off a girl’s cosplay into a joke and it took her years to say it made her uncomfortable and that she was being singled out for her looks and didn’t feel she belonged with us guys. Which I apologised for and now I’m a bit older with different perspectives absolutely see where she was coming from.
That’s absolute small fry compared to these allegations, but even within insignificant local amateur communities women are reluctant to come forward with a grievance involving a community staple.
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the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then
Has to be said people told them their behavior was robbing people like myself of being able to share that joy (the whole time the industry was forming) and folks (many of them went on to become mainstay figures and/or were moderators here) basically told them to shut up and/or leave if they don't like n***er and fa**ot "jokes"
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On June 29 2020 04:34 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 04:01 tskarzyn wrote:
Understand the need for a safe space, but if we can't debate this topic IRL without serious consequences, can't debate it online under a real ID, and can't even debate it in a gaming forum, when are we going to have the debate? e Are we just going to indiscriminately destroy people for any offense and equate the very serious trauma of domestic abuse with the sort of thing that teenagers used to be equipped to deal with on their own? You don't help someone by infantalizing them. What’s to debate here though? Specifically the past point anyway. If teenagers were previously equipped to deal with shitty behaviour because that was the culture of the time, that’s not a plus point to the teens of yesteryear it’s a damning indictment about historical cultural norms. Accepting awful behaviour for whatever reason does not build character or resilience. The vast majority of people I know with anxiety problems were either bullied at school or had an abusive partner. Anyway that aside, yes there should be limits in a purge of bad behaviour in the community, I can’t speak for others who have previously echoed similar sentiments to myself, my guess is they, like me don’t want people ostracised for a joke that went down badly, or things they said on Twitter as a teenager. The main incidents of discussion being Rapid, TLO and Pengwin’s re coaches in team housed and now Redeye are clearly incidences of alleged behaviour that strays far beyond that and into the land of abuse of various kinds. As a local amateur caster of some 8 years in a scene that loves shock humour, my jokes have all been tolerated because people know me, my sense of humour etc. I regret one joke where I riffed off a girl’s cosplay into a joke and it took her years to say it made her uncomfortable and that she was being singled out for her looks and didn’t feel she belonged with us guys. Which I apologised for and now I’m a bit older with different perspectives absolutely see where she was coming from. That’s absolute small fry compared to these allegations, but even within insignificant local amateur communities women are reluctant to come forward with a grievance involving a community staple.
Respect for coming clean with your own experience and the openness about your position as a result of growth.
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On June 29 2020 04:36 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote + the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then Has to be said people told them their behavior was robbing people like myself of being able to share that joy (the whole time the industry was forming) and folks (many of them went on to become mainstay figures and/or were moderators here) basically told them to shut up and/or leave if they don't like n***er and fa**ot "jokes"
I'm sorry that you went through such an experience, and thank you for sharing it. As someone who definitely perpetuated rhetoric of similar nature in the early 00's as an ignorant teen, I can safely say I wish I could take it back and that we eventually grow the community to be a place where such rhetoric is uniformly seen as unacceptable - just as it should have been back then.
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 29 2020 04:20 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 03:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 28 2020 23:37 Pangpootata wrote:On June 28 2020 22:00 Zealously wrote:On June 28 2020 21:48 StarStruck wrote:On June 24 2020 17:53 Argonauta wrote:
GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2.
This is honestly worst that the betting scandals. ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. There is a good reason for the difference in impact of betting and sexual harassment scandals on esports. For betting fraud, it is directly reliant on esports itself as the vehicle to commit fraud. It can only happen given a competitive environment where there is betting and competitors can be paid to lose on purpose. For sexual harassment, esports is merely a venue for the harasser to get acquainted with targets. If esports didnt exist, the harasser could otherwise find targets through any community activity that involves other people. In that sense, sexual harassment it is not directly reliant on esports itself, although it has happened within the community. That is why betting fraud directly impacts the integrity of esports competition, whereas harassment does not affect the integrity of esports competition; it occurs on the periphery of esports, based on contacts derived from it. Abuse and harassment is a far bigger threat to the viability of esports than matchfixing and other frauds imo. The huge slice of consumers that aren't in to esports, that untapped market, would I think be far less likely to want to get into the community if they hear about widespread repugnant personal behavior in the community than if they heard that there were some rather infrequent betting scandals. All of which have been handled swiftly and decisively when they've arisen. Which still did significant damage because the deep pockets withdrew. Talking about SC2 here. That capital would be even harder to find if the impression given is 'it's full of creeps running wild!' Investors don't want to be associated with that kind of heat. I'm sure there are lots of people working as fast as they can to get a handle on this situation but the response so far has been led by individual figures in the community as far as I can tell. Twitch needs to step up more. As far as its games go, Blizzard needs to get publicly involved. Other game publishers for their games. Teams. Tournament organizers. Hopefully there is a joint statement coming soon from these big organizations that have the power regarding reform of standards of individual behavior in esports/streaming. Valid points all around IMO. I think that part of the issue is that gaming is still inextricably linked to a culture of a bygone era, when gamers and "nerds" were the only ones present in the scene - and a lot of the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then, but is now more akin to what people would blanket-term as "incel" behavior. To be perhaps a little more clear, of the people who played something like CS back in the early-mid 2000's (just as an example), many were petulant teens who found more joy in playing online Cops n' Terrorists and speaking profanities to one another than they could have in their real lives, because they were branded a "nerd," or weren't conventionally attractive, or suffered from depression, or were otherwise feeling disenfranchisement from their peers in school. This is by no means an excuse or clarion call to tolerance of such behavior, just an observation/example. Of that population of players, the ones that were most likely to stick around into the modern era are those that not only have become totally desensitized to abusive language which they both received and dished out as a consequence of being forged in those fires, but also haven't found any real life reasons to move away or to take stock of their daily habits. In other words, men in their 30's who don't have any healthy romantic relationships to speak of and who likely value the "release" they get from playing games as highly as they do their careers and interpersonal relationships. As a consequence of the time sunk into the game, these same players are not only among the better players in their respective communities, but are also likely to be leaders/managers of some sort, whether it be a team environment or an entire league or something similar. As eSports has become more mainstream, these people either feel disenfranchised from their escapist retreat because of an increasing demand for civility, or establish structures in which their behavior, both past and present, is unassailable by those immediately affected by it. So, the behaviors, standards, and outdated lexicon perpetuate into the modern era because of remnant stalwarts, the transitive property, and hierarchical structures. A lot of the people who have the most amount of power in these communities are the same people who either tolerated or participated in language that would be considered deplorable today, simply due to longevity and dedication and desensitization. It's no surprise to me that eSports, despite being a very "modern" field of competition, is lacking in adherence to current trends in PC culture. This is all to say that any changes in the direction of more awareness and accountability will not only uproot a large number of established players of games and players of the system, but a large portion of their respective fanbases - and thus, a large opposition emerges. I think that if eSports could just start over with a clean slate in every field, and promote people up through the ranks based on merit and evident character, the whole industry would be much better off. Unfortunately, that is not possible. Any action too swift which immediately removes a large swath of the participant and leadership population will not go through if the opposition is too great. The only feasible way, IMO, is gradual growth towards acceptable standards of behavior with intermittent bursts of outcry about individuals who racked up too many offenses - which is sort of the pattern we have been following, so this may be a boring take overall and I'm sorry to make anyone read this many words to see me arrive at such a conclusion.
Interesting, I sort of agree with almost all of that, indeed you expanded on a point I allied to on the general acceptance of toxicity in online gaming extremely well.
I think you go slightly too hard on the archetypal gamers of yesteryear being socially maladjusted, as a minor quibble
It’s definitely a big factor too, equally gaming is a real outlet for hyper competitive behaviour, and is more meritocratic than the complexities of navigating adult life.
It’s a bit of generalisation but masculine peer interaction does involve rather a lot of jokey trash talk, and gaming has historically been quite the masculine dominated arena.
Although generally that’s couched in some degree of wit or truth, and the mocked also feel included in the camaraderie. Whereas gaming culture went far beyond that to the spamming of slurs that would be outrageous anywhere else and if you don’t like it get off the game.
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On June 29 2020 04:43 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 04:36 GreenHorizons wrote: the rhetoric, behavior, and personalities present in those times was normalized/tolerated then Has to be said people told them their behavior was robbing people like myself of being able to share that joy (the whole time the industry was forming) and folks (many of them went on to become mainstay figures and/or were moderators here) basically told them to shut up and/or leave if they don't like n***er and fa**ot "jokes" I'm sorry that you went through such an experience, and thank you for sharing it. As someone who definitely perpetuated rhetoric of similar nature in the early 00's as an ignorant teen, I can safely say I wish I could take it back and that we eventually grow the community to be a place where such rhetoric is uniformly seen as unacceptable - just as it should have been back then.
It wasn't until ~the Trayvon Martin events that I finally felt I couldn't just keep lurking between the overwhelming racism for builds and stuff while watching other Black posters come, say something about it and go. I had to say something.
I wanted to just come and be part of a community that shared my gaming interests and all that, instead I ended up on a decade long journey to reduce the casual racism to a tolerable level so enjoyment could be the predominate thing I got from the community instead of an occasional incidental.
EDIT: While I know a lot of the worst stuff happened when (most, but not all) of us were kids, worth remembering we recently had a long-time community member and a moderator both finally removed from the site and power (though he still enjoys a special icon) respectively for racist views that weren't news to anyone.
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On June 29 2020 04:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 04:34 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 29 2020 04:01 tskarzyn wrote:
Understand the need for a safe space, but if we can't debate this topic IRL without serious consequences, can't debate it online under a real ID, and can't even debate it in a gaming forum, when are we going to have the debate? e Are we just going to indiscriminately destroy people for any offense and equate the very serious trauma of domestic abuse with the sort of thing that teenagers used to be equipped to deal with on their own? You don't help someone by infantalizing them. What’s to debate here though? Specifically the past point anyway. If teenagers were previously equipped to deal with shitty behaviour because that was the culture of the time, that’s not a plus point to the teens of yesteryear it’s a damning indictment about historical cultural norms. Accepting awful behaviour for whatever reason does not build character or resilience. The vast majority of people I know with anxiety problems were either bullied at school or had an abusive partner. Anyway that aside, yes there should be limits in a purge of bad behaviour in the community, I can’t speak for others who have previously echoed similar sentiments to myself, my guess is they, like me don’t want people ostracised for a joke that went down badly, or things they said on Twitter as a teenager. The main incidents of discussion being Rapid, TLO and Pengwin’s re coaches in team housed and now Redeye are clearly incidences of alleged behaviour that strays far beyond that and into the land of abuse of various kinds. As a local amateur caster of some 8 years in a scene that loves shock humour, my jokes have all been tolerated because people know me, my sense of humour etc. I regret one joke where I riffed off a girl’s cosplay into a joke and it took her years to say it made her uncomfortable and that she was being singled out for her looks and didn’t feel she belonged with us guys. Which I apologised for and now I’m a bit older with different perspectives absolutely see where she was coming from. That’s absolute small fry compared to these allegations, but even within insignificant local amateur communities women are reluctant to come forward with a grievance involving a community staple. Respect for coming clean with your own experience and the openness about your position as a result of growth.
Likewise.
Us older gamers didn’t arrive as mostly decent, functional cogs of our various communities fully formed, I assume many of us indulged in terrible behaviour in our younger days.
It’s a pretty nascent cultural phenomenon, think my first experience playing online was Diablo in 1996 or so.
The ideal is to reshape the norms we helped establish and perpetuate back in the day. I don’t want it to be an endless cycle of teen/young adult gamers behaving in toxic ways until they mature and then the next generation do the same things.
My 7 year old is quite into his games, doesn’t even have a computer at his home but he grasped Unreal Tournament 2004 pretty well.
Think I eventually remembered to turn the gore off but these were the kind of games I played and they did me no harm really.
I don’t let him play games with voice chat enabled though, which I feel is a damning indictment that I feel that is considerably worse as an influence than people exploding and viscera everywhere.
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So people know, I'm much better here than I was 'irl' as a kid and have plenty to account for in both realms. I'm not on some holier than thou thing.
I think I was mostly not an open misogynist and transphobe, at least here. But I definitely contributed to the perpetuation of despicable behavior and rhetoric in the community by not speaking up about it more here (choosing my battles selfishly). I also used it as a defense mechanism to avoid confronting racism with other gamers by diverting racist conversations into ones with other oppressed/marginalized folks as their victims/targets.
It was super fucked up and I'm sorry to everyone but especially the handful of people that continue to endure the stuff we haven't addressed as a community much at all (ableism, I'm looking at you).
Substituting "gay" or "fa**ot" etc... with "retarded" is not okay.
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EPT
