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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 28 2020 11:54 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 10:15 Jealous wrote:On June 28 2020 10:09 TentativePanda wrote:
Kind of a side note (but a very important one), but I hope everyone does a little critical thinking when they see the common theme of those being accused threatening some sort of backlash, usually legal, if stories are released.
What I cannot ignore is if it’s *this* hard to come forward both emotionally and legally to accuse (usually rightly so) a damn esports professional about sexual abuse or just abuse in general, imagine how borderline impossible it is to come out when it’s someone with substantial legal and financial power.
Why do you think Trump, Bloomberg, Epstein etc don’t have countless public cases/accusations out right now? Why are private industry companies not being openly accused and punished for employment related and business related crimes daily? Why are top athletes, politicians, business men and the like the last people accused of the assaults they committed?
Power is a terrible thing and it directly prohibits justice and veils wrongdoings. These legal threats and whatnot coming from those accused in the esports world are a horrible sign as to what goes on when people with significantly more power are accused. I hope people catch onto this.
EDIT: Not minimizing the actions of the accused in the esports world, just pondering the extent of how much more awful shit goes on behind more powerful closed doors, and if one day we can disrupt that power. What would be the appropriate response if no abuse happened at all, but the person still had their reputation tarnished by the accusation (and possibly lost their source of income)? Not the topic of my post whatsoever. It’s a conversation to have, but clearly not the one I was bringing up. Nice bait
It's deeply interwoven into your topic to my understanding, as it appears that your point is that legal backlash is an obstacle for reporting and thus is a bad thing. However, to my imagination, legal backlash is the correct response if you are innocent of what you are charged with, too. So what is the appropriate response?
I certainly agree with you that power can serve as an obstacle for both reporting and justice, but I find it hard to imagine a solution that would remove it in a fair way.
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On June 28 2020 11:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
This isn't criminal law we're talking about, and it's probably best to leave the fifty different versions of mcgormack and their posts out of this.
It's not just about criminal law. People could be sued for defamation if they're not careful with their words (whether in this instance or some other cases). And any campaign for cause XYZ has to be done the 'right' way otherwise we lose credibility and public support. (For instance, even TL is careful enough to change the title to give a fair reflection of the incidents reported so far)
Look, nothing in what I just said detracts our focus in stemming this 'systemic' problem in esports. I'm just trying to contribute by pointing out the potential pitfalls and challenges that we face in combating harassment.
Yes, I said 'we'. I genuinely wish to contribute to the community in resolving this problem as much as any of you, okay? But just feels like walking across a mine-field here...
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On June 28 2020 12:13 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 11:54 TentativePanda wrote:On June 28 2020 10:15 Jealous wrote:On June 28 2020 10:09 TentativePanda wrote:
Kind of a side note (but a very important one), but I hope everyone does a little critical thinking when they see the common theme of those being accused threatening some sort of backlash, usually legal, if stories are released.
What I cannot ignore is if it’s *this* hard to come forward both emotionally and legally to accuse (usually rightly so) a damn esports professional about sexual abuse or just abuse in general, imagine how borderline impossible it is to come out when it’s someone with substantial legal and financial power.
Why do you think Trump, Bloomberg, Epstein etc don’t have countless public cases/accusations out right now? Why are private industry companies not being openly accused and punished for employment related and business related crimes daily? Why are top athletes, politicians, business men and the like the last people accused of the assaults they committed?
Power is a terrible thing and it directly prohibits justice and veils wrongdoings. These legal threats and whatnot coming from those accused in the esports world are a horrible sign as to what goes on when people with significantly more power are accused. I hope people catch onto this.
EDIT: Not minimizing the actions of the accused in the esports world, just pondering the extent of how much more awful shit goes on behind more powerful closed doors, and if one day we can disrupt that power. What would be the appropriate response if no abuse happened at all, but the person still had their reputation tarnished by the accusation (and possibly lost their source of income)? Not the topic of my post whatsoever. It’s a conversation to have, but clearly not the one I was bringing up. Nice bait It's deeply interwoven into your topic to my understanding, as it appears that your point is that legal backlash is an obstacle for reporting and thus is a bad thing. However, to my imagination, legal backlash is the correct response if you are innocent of what you are charged with, too. So what is the appropriate response? I certainly agree with you that power can serve as an obstacle for both reporting and justice, but I find it hard to imagine a solution that would remove it in a fair way.
I think because of the length and content of your point I misread your intention. I agree it’s an incredibly complex task to moderate the balance between victim support and the idea of innocence till proven guilty.
That’s a main reason I wasn’t getting into that in my X character TLnet forum post. More so I just wanted to bring attention to how the powerful have far (and I mean farrrr) more financial and therefore legal power in such instances.
Sorry to misinterpret your response, looked kinda like a bait lol. That discussion is an important one though.
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It would be a nightmare to litigate. How many lawyers can practice law in 5 continents and the Pacific islands? (As I believe Redeye has done events everywhere that has ever had any, and I think he has had community members make negative comments about him from at least 3 so far. And whatever continent the UK counts as now?).
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On June 28 2020 12:59 Nevuk wrote:
It would be a nightmare to litigate. How many lawyers can practice law in 5 continents and the Pacific islands? (As I believe Redeye has done events everywhere that has ever had any, and I think he has had community members make negative comments about him from at least 3 so far. And whatever continent the UK counts as now?).
"We have enough problems over here; don't float west." ~North America
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I believe most liberal countries like UK, US and Canada have criminal statutes which have extra-territorial jurisdiction over cyber-crimes and sex-related crimes. Meaning their courts have jurisdiction over their nationals even if they commit crimes abroad.
Then again, the difficulty lies in gathering evidence, especially the witnesses. Some countries allow for shielding of vulnerable witnesses, but I'm not sure whether this would allow the victims to testify and be cross-examined online in a criminal trial.
But definitely criminal charges would be daunting, and prosecutors may be reluctant to take up.
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Oh, I was referring to the difficulty of Redeye suing for defamation. It goes both ways though, that is true.
If a person in the UK sends an unsolicited dick pick on Twitter (US company) to someone in India, whose jurisdiction is it? I think people earlier mentioned India has unsolicited dick picks as illegal, while they're legal in much of the US.
They're hard enough questions to answer that most prosecutors aren't going to even try without ironclad evidence of very serious crimes.
TL being cautious about thread titles etc. is more about a culture trying to be accurate reporters than it is about fear of legal threats (though they're a bigger concern for TL than reddit or twitter, due to US law).
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On June 28 2020 13:18 Nevuk wrote:
Oh, I was referring to the difficulty of Redeye suing for defamation. It goes both ways though, that is true.
If a person in the UK sends an unsolicited dick pick on Twitter (US company) to someone in India, whose jurisdiction is it? I think people earlier mentioned India has unsolicited dick picks as illegal, while they're legal in much of the US.
They're hard enough questions to answer that most prosecutors aren't going to even try without ironclad evidence of very serious crimes.
TL being cautious about thread titles etc. is more about a culture trying to be accurate reporters than it is about fear of legal threats (though they're a bigger concern for TL than reddit or twitter, due to US law).
Since most of us are anonymous here, the risk of us being sued for defamation is low (but not impossible). Rather, intermediaries like TL run the higher risk here for failing to remove unlawful third party user content (which includes defamation, hate speech, etc). Anyway, I was alluding to defamation simply as a general cautionary statement why we should be careful of what we post online (not just in this particular case, or in TL).
In your hypothetical example, both UK and India could have jurisdiction. Anyway, I believe grooming is a crime in UK, US and Canada (I'm pretty sure about Canada because I just read up on a case where a guy got caught grooming a police officer disguising as a child online i.e. entrapment).
Litigation either way is hard. Strategically, I doubt very much the accused would attempt to sue unless pushed to a corner. Their strategy is usually to let things quiet down and swept under the rug.
My fear in such cases is where overzealous efforts to defend the victims end up instigating the followers of the accused. Like that Angry Joe case. Coming out public may not always be the best move for the victims. Ideally, the community should come up with some credible committee (consisting of gamers or casters) for victims to report their cases, and the committee takes the lead.
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At least in DotA, we have people claiming that isn't the case :
Issue is that these are the same people accused of covering up, so trust is hard. A 3rd party commission is ideal but slow and expensive.
(Process seems to consist of insiders being sent extra corroboration)
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On June 28 2020 13:31 RKC wrote: Ideally, the community should come up with some credible committee (consisting of gamers or casters) for victims to report their cases, and the committee takes the lead.
Something needs to be formed to be a voice for the injustice in the community. Social Media is showing more signs of strength in numbers and the ability to bring change.
If we come together and use the tools available we can bring change to the industry we love!
Sign me up! I'm ready to help protect the people that need a voice!
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On June 28 2020 13:38 cenflamatty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 13:31 RKC wrote: Ideally, the community should come up with some credible committee (consisting of gamers or casters) for victims to report their cases, and the committee takes the lead. Something needs to be formed to be a voice for the injustice in the community. Social Media is showing more signs of strength in numbers and the ability to bring change. If we come together and use the tools available we can bring change to the industry we love! Sign me up! I'm ready to help protect the people that need a voice!
We may also need 'independent' members (not just gamers and casters). The fear is that insiders may be biased for/against the accused. So some kind of mixed committee. I'm happy to contribute as much as I can too!
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On June 28 2020 13:36 Nevuk wrote:At least in DotA, we have people claiming that isn't the case : https://twitter.com/LDeeep/status/1276533270373531653Issue is that these are the same people accused of covering up, so trust is hard. A 3rd party commission is ideal but slow and expensive. (Process seems to consist of insiders being sent extra corroboration)
Really? People not getting cancelled? Did you know that Tobi's voice lines instantly got removed from the game by valve although he is actively responding to and refuting the allegations.
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On June 28 2020 13:36 Nevuk wrote:At least in DotA, we have people claiming that isn't the case : https://twitter.com/LDeeep/status/1276533270373531653Issue is that these are the same people accused of covering up, so trust is hard. A 3rd party commission is ideal but slow and expensive. (Process seems to consist of insiders being sent extra corroboration)
Yes, confidentiality is key. Most victims are unwilling to speak up because they're opening themselves up to further abuse. And victims who post under pseudonyms aren't regarded as credible.
Yes, the commission has to be selected carefully. Credibility and impartiality is key.
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On June 28 2020 13:44 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 13:36 Nevuk wrote:At least in DotA, we have people claiming that isn't the case : https://twitter.com/LDeeep/status/1276533270373531653Issue is that these are the same people accused of covering up, so trust is hard. A 3rd party commission is ideal but slow and expensive. (Process seems to consist of insiders being sent extra corroboration) Really? People not getting cancelled? Did you know that Tobi's voice lines instantly got removed from the game by valve although he is actively responding to and refuting the allegations.
That is LD's defense of Tobi being cancelled : that there was a lot more evidence that wasn't made public.
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removing a voice from a game seems like something that's fine? Like if he was cleared they could easily put it back in. That's not cancelling that's just basic reaction to these things. Yous see it in sports and entertainment the person is taken off of things pending an investigation. If their cleared it's easy to put them back in/resume things. Heck even in education if someone gets accused of something serious their immediately placed on administrative leave by the institution.
A neutral third party really is the only way to handle it if you are accused of a systemic institutional problem. Bring in somebody whose qualified for this stuff (they exist) That's what the Dallas Maverick's did when they were found to have a culture of harassment.
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On June 28 2020 02:20 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 02:07 linestein wrote:
I want to apologize for my comments earlier in the thread. Hopefully I can win some collective leniency from the mods in my explanation.
Basically, I see RAPiD as such a high profile figure that any allegations against him are shocking. It's not necessarily that I doubt the veracity of the allegations, or that I doubt the credibility of the accusers. Obviously, this is the internet, and unusual things are possible. However, it has more to do with the quality of the community (which is high) and stature that RAPiD possessed, which was fairly considerable. I think people experience a mix of emotions in replying to such an unexpected and relatively horrifying event.
Now it is is obvious that the evidence against RAPiD is truly considerable. The similarity of the statements, and the quantity of accusers seem sufficient to establish the case. Hopefully I can speak for many people by expressing my surprise and dismay. More than anything, there is the wish that the allegations and concerns were untrue for the sake of the community. It is certainly not a desire to discredit any victim, but rather a more general sense of sadness. How could this happen in our small and tight-knit community? Perhaps I can speak for many of the people who are worried about the situation when I say that we are taken by surprise and wish that the situation could be absolved.
That is all I have to say on the issue. A lot of us share your sadness and suprise about what happend. I like Grubbys Mindset about it, trying to see the positive of this, that we have the chance to improve as a community and prevent further incidents
I will honestly say that my mentality is very close to that of Apollo's, and Grubby's words there are very inspiring. I think I will push myself to try and start thinking in that direction, rather than wallowing and sinking further into darkness and depression.
There's no upvote buttons here on TL, but thank you so much for sharing this. I never would have seen it otherwise as I don't engage much with social media.
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On June 28 2020 12:13 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 11:54 TentativePanda wrote:On June 28 2020 10:15 Jealous wrote:On June 28 2020 10:09 TentativePanda wrote:
Kind of a side note (but a very important one), but I hope everyone does a little critical thinking when they see the common theme of those being accused threatening some sort of backlash, usually legal, if stories are released.
What I cannot ignore is if it’s *this* hard to come forward both emotionally and legally to accuse (usually rightly so) a damn esports professional about sexual abuse or just abuse in general, imagine how borderline impossible it is to come out when it’s someone with substantial legal and financial power.
Why do you think Trump, Bloomberg, Epstein etc don’t have countless public cases/accusations out right now? Why are private industry companies not being openly accused and punished for employment related and business related crimes daily? Why are top athletes, politicians, business men and the like the last people accused of the assaults they committed?
Power is a terrible thing and it directly prohibits justice and veils wrongdoings. These legal threats and whatnot coming from those accused in the esports world are a horrible sign as to what goes on when people with significantly more power are accused. I hope people catch onto this.
EDIT: Not minimizing the actions of the accused in the esports world, just pondering the extent of how much more awful shit goes on behind more powerful closed doors, and if one day we can disrupt that power. What would be the appropriate response if no abuse happened at all, but the person still had their reputation tarnished by the accusation (and possibly lost their source of income)? Not the topic of my post whatsoever. It’s a conversation to have, but clearly not the one I was bringing up. Nice bait It's deeply interwoven into your topic to my understanding, as it appears that your point is that legal backlash is an obstacle for reporting and thus is a bad thing. However, to my imagination, legal backlash is the correct response if you are innocent of what you are charged with, too. So what is the appropriate response? I certainly agree with you that power can serve as an obstacle for both reporting and justice, but I find it hard to imagine a solution that would remove it in a fair way.
None of this shit surprises me considering the scene even back in 97 was run by kids for the most part.
Anyway, the reason you don't see more lawsuits of the sexual variety when it comes to Trump's neck specifically even when you have proof has to deal with the financials. He can hold up the courts until the cows come home.
I would hardly believe that a lot of these 'pros or community members' would have a lot of dough to uphold the courts and even then you would have to have substantial proof AND showcase how it has impacted you significantly to get any money out of it.. 90% of the time it ends up not being worth it because then everything comes out in the open.
Only interesting case I have seen in a while is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard.
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Grubby is indeed a great man for shining a warm light on this difficult topic. I'm not nearly as eloquent or important, but I do feel inspired to share a list of some things I believe are positive outcomes from all of this:
Victims are being heard. The fact that some people are skeptics or don't want to believe them doesn't change the fact that there are so many other people out there who do believe and support them. They don't have to hold on to their secret anymore and strangers on the internet willing to share their burden and fight for them. They don't have to suffer alone anymore.
People are being educated. Yes, there are some people who aren't willing to change their views because they're more concerned with winning an argument than getting to the truth. However, there's definitely an audience of other people who aren't as ignorant as they used to be on issues regarding sexual harassment and emotional abuse. That sort of awareness will help prevent future tragedies.
It's being taken seriously. Those who've sexually or emotionally abused others are losing things like their jobs, sponsorships, power in their communities, etc. That sends a strong message to other potential abusers before they make a choice to go down that dark path.
None of these positive things would have come to pass without the courage of the victims to speak out. I'm saddened for what each individual has been through but thankful they've made their voices heard.
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On June 28 2020 12:02 Master of DalK wrote:
Paul was a massive tool the few times I had the displeasure of working with him, nothing physical or abusive but just generally not co-operative. Sad to hear about the stuff that happened to James and many others and I hope Paul gets his comeuppance.
you know what stories come across as to me? fear of losing their position and keeping others grounded. -_-
considering there re a limited amount of events and you could argue 'old boys club' it isn't shocking.
everyone can be replaced in time.
one thing i never really understood is why it takes some people so long to bring these things out of the woodwork.
'I found it unsettling.'
'I didn't know it wasn't right.'
and then you have the whole herd mentality.
You questioned the behavior right away. I get it can be hard to address it and it pisses me off that it takes a #metoo movement for people to start the conversation.
Ways to get ahead
Treat shit like this no different than what we see happening today with Racism. If you see it happening. Stand up against it and address it head on. That's the best way to create a safe environment. You see it happening to someone else. Address it. Don't give them a chance to get away with such shit.
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EPT
