EPTHarassment/Abuse in StarCraft 2 - Page 54
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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland620 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
I say legal actions, not throw him in prison without letting him talk." Sorry someone said this early on. Problem with this folks is this requires money and a lot of it and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these people are not even part of the same country which means it will be a lot more and both individuals would be ripped apart in this setting meaning you need a whole lot of evidence and proof of impact. This by no means discredit anything that was said because I am sure everything is fairly accurate.Unless you are truly at the point your ready to sue let alone have the money to take action and based off impact it could very well be the other way around as a defamation suit considering the impact would be loss of work which is measurable. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
On June 28 2020 19:57 dbRic1203 wrote: DeMusliM leaves Method, because the CEO has also accusations against him and a (WoW) player has a history of sexually harrasing women, wich was known to the Org and they didn t kick him from their rooster: https://twitter.com/DeMusliM/status/1276498762182078464 Yeah. Method WoW guys and girls are a real nasty bunch, they've done a lot of similar stuff in public (let alone behind closed doors where some leaks have shown worse..) so i'm well past giving them reasonable doubt. One example, ableist slurs on social media and streams are an everyday thing for these people and much of the WoW community actually supports them doing that. I really respect putting money where your heart is on this kinda thing, too often there is a silent majority just like "lalalala got paid, not affecting me" which has let abusers and assholes get away with a lot in the past. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
n/c about avilo. i'm very slow to actually call ppl out based on 1 sided storys, but these 2 are too well documented to not be true. and while most of what rapid did is most likely not technically illegal, and i'm not quick to jump the gun on these cases cuz we're all adults and should take responsibility for ourselves imo, this guy seems to be a systematic psychopath and has no place in this community. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 27 2020 09:37 tskarzyn wrote: It's depressing seeing adults with so little agency they don't feel they can tell a lonely nerd to cut the shit when they make the occasional awkward pass or inappropriate comment. TLO had it right - call them out in front of others and it'll stop. a lot of them aren't adults or have become adults and when they entered the industry were kids. As for the whole Korean stuff things like TLO described where there was touching or coaches/team managers abusing players was unfortunately a little more common. It happened in BW, League and I am sure many other games sadly. Some of it has been documented. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46540 Posts
 On June 28 2020 19:48 Bonyth wrote: Anyone keeping track of how many people have changed their opinion upon reading the other side's arguments? :D I'm sure most people who have changed their minds haven't posted in the thread, but are instead reading the thread and other threads like this one. That being said, a few people (5-10?) have taken the time to actually post in this thread that they originally didn't believe X, but a day or two later they do believe X. That's pretty cool imo. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 27 2020 02:49 Scarlett` wrote: Absolutely nothing. At least in my experiences in starcraft Indeed. You don't even have a proper players Union. ;/ You have to stick up for each other and that is why the best piece of advice I can give to everyone is stand up for each other whenever you see or hear about stupid shit going down and when people see the negative impact hopefully some of this shit will be lower. You won't get rid of it entirely. I mean look at the stories about other big teams like TSM fiasco recently (not sexual in nature - but God damn immature/unprofessional which really affected another players value; fortunately for him he did find another team). If stupid shit can happen in a team that is worth a shit ton like TSM.. stupid shit can happen anywhere. Also TSMs response to that one was frigging ridiculous. This is what happens when you have kids growing up in the industry help run the industry. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 24 2020 17:53 Argonauta wrote: GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2. This is honestly worst that the betting scandals. ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
Also i have trouble imagining that Player Union would protect event atendee from a player. Its not what it is meant for. We might end up with someone like Avilo running it and use it for coverup. Player Union of course has its benefits but only for players, we need to think about everyone. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 28 2020 21:48 StarStruck wrote: ... When there is money involved and you rig the system and tarnish the game completely? Sorry man I am not with you on this one. You are entitled to your opinion the fact these situations did end up in the courts and has been well documented including players banned from KeSPA and can never player competitively again. Like there have been talk shows, we have seen the actual side effects and it was one of the downfalls of BW for example. I kindly disagree. They're both pretty bad. The thing about betting scandals is it's pretty white and black versus shades of gray when someone accuses someone of something and as we have seen already could be fabricated. A lot of these accounts sound legit but the idea of actual legal ramifications is a pipe dream and super doper expensive. Federal prosecutors will come after your ass if you defraud people out of money. Not so much for libel/sexual harassment/bullying/harassment. Let's not be ridiculous. Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 28 2020 21:52 Silvanel wrote: The push for safeguards should go from event organizers, if they care about safety of atendees, players, emploeeys they will come up with solutions and put some measers in place (i gave an example on previous pages what measuers are used in different community). Also i have trouble imagining that Player Union would protect event atendee from a player. Its not what it is meant for. We might end up with someone like Avilo running it and use it for coverup. Player Union of course has its benefits but only for players, we need to think about everyone. Cannot have player Unions when the Developers literally run the scene (Blizzard/Riot/Valve). You think they want to give the players any control? Even if it did happen it would be laughable at best. Case in point see what they did in League, which is pretty much TSM and they have no authority. On June 26 2020 23:20 dbRic1203 wrote: Obviously it s realy sad, to see wrong accusations, exactly because of those cases. They are a big minority tho. So the right way would be to give supoosedly victimes the benefit of the doubt andd search for additional information then. Also trying to better the system/ community is also a step in the right direction. Beliving all women doesnt mean beliving all accusations, no matter what. Edit: I also want to add, that I never heard about AngryJoe, or that incident in peticular. This one is sad because I was literally just watching AngryJoe's channel when he brought this up. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:20 Silvanel wrote: You think Blizzard is interfering in ESL/Dreamhack/Twitch/Take/GSL harrasment policy? I highly doubt that. I think specifics and enforcments are left to organizers also i have hard time believing an American owned publicly traded corporation would not care about sexual harassment policy or even go to lenghts and prevent partners from enforcing it, afterall they are required by law to have one. I would be more worried about Tencent. Never said anything like that. I was directly responding to the idea of player Unions becoming a reality in eSports when the developers have the power on what events are yay or nah. I think we're still miles away of anything remotely happening like that. Also, let's look at it from another perspective as well. Do you honestly think owners would want the players have an honest say in how much money they should be entitled to? This is a different conversation from how to deal with sexual abuse/harassment. With that said, while we're on the topic of ownership as well. If someone like Red Eye is a co-founder of his organization it becomes even more problematic because he is the boss and then it becomes a double edged sword. If you love eSports and he is one of the only company in town. What do you do? Suck it up buttercup, bite your lip and do what he tells you because he can arguably fuck up your whole career in eSports? It is a shitty ass situation. and this is for Redeye. If you think the person doesn't have the 'right' talent. Why the heck would you hire them in the first place? Eventually shit will hit the fan and stuff like this gets out. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10011 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:44 Silvanel wrote: OK, i misunderstood i thought You implied that Blizzard will stop the creation/enforcment of sexaul harrasment policy for events and You meant the player union. Blizzad could almost certainly enforce the creation of sexual harassment policy for events couldn't they? If they wanted to.. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway772 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:00 Zealously wrote: Obviously this is mostly a matter of personal opinion but I would throw all of esports in the trash if it meant people didn't get sexually assaulted or harassed anymore. A betting scandal is whatever compared to people being raped or otherwise abused. I know this isn't quite what you were arguing against, but I don't think (most) people are weighing this in monetary costs versus the costs of, say, a matchfixing scandal. It's purely a "we need to do whatever we can to make sure this doesn't happen"-kind of thing, no further analysis involved. And I definitely agree that "some high-profile characters have used their standing for years to abuse and harass people" is far worse than any betting scandal. However, like you say, the consequences for the game itself will probably be much smaller. There is a good reason for the difference in impact of betting and sexual harassment scandals on esports. For betting fraud, it is directly reliant on esports itself as the vehicle to commit fraud. It can only happen given a competitive environment where there is betting and competitors can be paid to lose on purpose. For sexual harassment, esports is merely a venue for the harasser to get acquainted with targets. If esports didnt exist, the harasser could otherwise find targets through any community activity that involves other people. In that sense, sexual harassment it is not directly reliant on esports itself, although it has happened within the community. That is why betting fraud directly impacts the integrity of esports competition, whereas harassment does not affect the integrity of esports competition; it occurs on the periphery of esports, based on contacts derived from it. | ||
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