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On November 17 2019 07:37 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 07:32 Hvvacha wrote:On November 17 2019 06:31 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched... If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue. artosis's reasoning behind why it shouldn't be nerfed was: "observers die to 8 range queens all the time" what is yours? it's not like toss is having troubles scouting especially after halluc energy buff. Observers need to be fast for speed banshees and the new crackivacs in the balance patch. They are also gas expensive, can only be produced 1 at a time and serve 3 very specific roles; scouting, detection and spotting for blinking up the high ground. The queen part is also a valid concern, especially when 10 range Lurkers hit the field once the patch goes through. The Oracle's revelation, while useful, isn't consistent enough to make up for the Observer nerf because it's energy based and has down time. It aint about the scouting, it's about the detection.
speed banshees still faster than observers even with their speed upgrade, against banshees you just siege your obs near mineral line for detection, current observers with speed upgrade are faster than new medivac will be, would be too easy to have constant vision on them don't you think, maybe it's one of the reasons behind obs speed nerf.
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On November 17 2019 07:52 Hvvacha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 07:37 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 07:32 Hvvacha wrote:On November 17 2019 06:31 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched... If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue. artosis's reasoning behind why it shouldn't be nerfed was: "observers die to 8 range queens all the time" what is yours? it's not like toss is having troubles scouting especially after halluc energy buff. Observers need to be fast for speed banshees and the new crackivacs in the balance patch. They are also gas expensive, can only be produced 1 at a time and serve 3 very specific roles; scouting, detection and spotting for blinking up the high ground. The queen part is also a valid concern, especially when 10 range Lurkers hit the field once the patch goes through. The Oracle's revelation, while useful, isn't consistent enough to make up for the Observer nerf because it's energy based and has down time. It aint about the scouting, it's about the detection. speed banshees still faster than observers even with their speed upgrade, against banshees you just siege your obs near mineral line for detection, current observers with speed upgrade are faster than new medivac will be, would be too easy to have constant vision on them don't you think, maybe it's one of the reasons behind obs speed nerf.
Yes, speed banshees are faster than current Observers and now, that gap is going to widen to the point where speed banshees are going to require money Revelations to deal with+multiple cannons per base. And if the Terran decides to bait out a Revelation on 2 or 3 Banshees while saving a few in reserve to abuse Revelation not being a consistent or persistent detect option? Now you're kinda screwed if we're referencing a timing, where you're not going to have 4 Oracles and a ground army.
The Observer didn't need a nerf, SPECIAL wasting 5 scans is a SPECIAL problem and he needs to get better and scanning ahead of Observers+cornering them if he insists on killing them. I mean what SPECIAL did by whinging about not killing an Observer due to his misplay is basically complain that Reaper grenades didn't save his reapers as he stand still and casts them on the Reaper's feet. Well, maybe if you threw the nades where the enemy is going to be and not where they are, that relationship changes...
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I don't think they nerfed obs speed because 1 person complained.
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Northern Ireland26609 Posts
It’s still a bad change, their rationale that they actually stated it was that it was frustrating to have observers barely escape death.
Ok so that minor thing, which is more a QoL thing let’s change it but let’s leave BL/Infestor intact for seemingly aeons, which of course isn’t at all frustrating to play against.
If there’s a reason pertaining to actual balance to nerf the speed then let’s hear it, nerfing it because Terrans find it annoying that they fuck up catching observers is silly.
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I can't believe they actually went through with the chargelot nerf, the observer nerf, and the adept nerf.
Chargelots basically bounce off of MMM now. Utterly ridiculous.
The observer nerf is a joke imo. Terran players get frustrated and they are nerfing it? Is this what Starcraft has come down to?
I admit that I dont have as much knowledge regarding the adept change, being a non GM Terran player, but it seems awful to me.
On the other hand, I think P v Z lategame has been flipped without IT. I think PvZ lategame is significantly protoss favored now. Zerg can no longer soak up AOE with ITs....they can no longer fight energy with energy, so to speak. Protoss is free to blanket everything in storms especially now that the BL range was massively nerfed. Completely removing IT and replacing it with a homeless man's version of Dark Swarm is a big mistake imo.
I predict heavy Terran dominance next year.
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I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly.
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Yeah. I will say that medivavac boost has been a lot more frustrating to my life than observers.
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On November 17 2019 10:36 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. I will say that medivavac boost has been a lot more frustrating to my life than observers.
And yet Medivacs are getting buffed. As far as I can tell, the Observer nerf was pure bias.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 17 2019 10:48 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 10:36 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. I will say that medivavac boost has been a lot more frustrating to my life than observers. And yet Medivacs are getting buffed. As far as I can tell, the Observer nerf was pure bias.
Have to agree with that. There's a disturbing anti-P bias in much of the community that seems to be influencing Blizzard over hard numbers.
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1935 Posts
On November 17 2019 16:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 10:48 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 10:36 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. I will say that medivavac boost has been a lot more frustrating to my life than observers. And yet Medivacs are getting buffed. As far as I can tell, the Observer nerf was pure bias. Have to agree with that. There's a disturbing anti-P bias in much of the community that seems to be influencing Blizzard over hard numbers.
I am convinced top players will find creative ways to abuse both the new chargelots and adepts. I think having to be a bit more careful where you move with your observer is a good thing.
Protoss still has all the aoe options to melt bio armies, but with the emp upgrade it comes down to positioning and who lands their stuff better, which is good imo.
Homestory cup will give us a nice preview of what is to come, but the full effect of the patch will not be clear until later, when new builds and strategies have been refined.
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IT’s  ((
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 17 2019 18:57 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 16:32 Cyro wrote:On November 17 2019 10:48 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 10:36 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. I will say that medivavac boost has been a lot more frustrating to my life than observers. And yet Medivacs are getting buffed. As far as I can tell, the Observer nerf was pure bias. Have to agree with that. There's a disturbing anti-P bias in much of the community that seems to be influencing Blizzard over hard numbers. I am convinced top players will find creative ways to abuse both the new chargelots and adepts. I think having to be a bit more careful where you move with your observer is a good thing. Protoss still has all the aoe options to melt bio armies, but with the emp upgrade it comes down to positioning and who lands their stuff better, which is good imo. Homestory cup will give us a nice preview of what is to come, but the full effect of the patch will not be clear until later, when new builds and strategies have been refined.
Why the TvP focus? It's near balance for a long time now and nowhere near as big a problem as the zerg matchups which have stomped back to back top level tournaments somewhat unfairly.
"In the post-match press conference [going by DailyEsports' transcript], Rogue said "I think Stats is the Protoss player who is best at late game PvZ, but even he crumbles against Zerg in the late game."
"Trap prepared really hard. I won because balance really favors Zerg. I think he'll feel bad about this one."
This all started when P was performing statistically very normal but got multiple nerfs to their core because of what was suspected to be - and was confirmed in hindsight to be - unjustified whine. Several of those nerfs were never even considered for reverts.
I don't think having to be careful with observer movement around enemy bases/armies is a big issue but like overlords which have repeatedly had speed buffs they have trouble traversing the larger maps of the present day, they just can't get from A to B fast enough. It takes longer to scout stuff with them, some situations where you'd be previously be safe using one observer for multiple jobs aren't possible any more because it takes so long to cross half of the map so people end up using more robo time for more observers to do the same job. That's always a struggle because tech unit production time is a huge bottleneck for P by design.
I'm especially baffled by the nerf to the observer speed upgrade - even the buffed version is hardly ever bought at the top level (reserved for us ladder heroes) because it's too expensive and out of the way. Ridiculous change.
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1935 Posts
Why the TvP focus? It's near balance for a long time now and nowhere near as big a problem as the zerg matchups which have stomped back to back top level tournaments somewhat unfairly.
So... Zerg is getting multiple big nerfs to the mentioned lategame and you are still worried the observer speed will ruin it for you? Sorry, I don't follow.
The Zealot and Adept changes will have a big impact on all the matchups, I just happen to care more about TvP as a terran player...
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
So... Zerg is getting multiple big nerfs to the mentioned lategame
Sorry, I don't follow.
I was saying that the Z changes to both ZvT and ZvP are way more important from a balance POV (having the best players win and having interesting tournaments to watch) - especially getting rid of the zerg dominance over both T and P causing ZvZ spam since it's the worst of the 9 matchups IMO.
The ridiculousness of the observer changes recently is an entirely different topic, as denoted by the triple-spacing.
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patch 4.0.0 :
New ability "Surveillance Mode." : Increases vision by 25% and immobilizes the observer.
Patch 4.8.2 :
Movement speed increased from 2.63 to 3.01.
Gravitic Boosters upgrade now increases movement speed by 1.51, up from 1.31.
=> no one asked for these changes and they were actually too strong. This is one of the reasons why TvP was eavily P favored over the last 2 years.
Removing the 'surveillance mode' ability would have been better, though nerfing its speed is still a good news.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
TvP was eavily P favored over the last 2 years.
Source?
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On November 18 2019 02:25 Cyro wrote:Source?
They don't have one, it's more fringe Terran whinging.
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Northern Ireland26609 Posts
On November 18 2019 04:55 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2019 02:25 Cyro wrote:TvP was eavily P favored over the last 2 years. Source? They don't have one, it's more fringe Terran whinging.
I highly dispute the ‘fringe’ part of your statement.
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Terrains have whined about sc2 from the start despite benefitting from several severe imbalances in their favor from design. The blizzard balance team just isn’t that good at their jobs.
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I just don't want Flux Vanes. Why the hell are they bringing back Flux Vanes.
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EPT
