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On November 19 2019 20:51 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2019 20:26 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2019 20:03 Harris1st wrote:On November 19 2019 19:55 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2019 10:22 BisuDagger wrote:On November 19 2019 10:01 washikie wrote:On November 19 2019 09:50 BisuDagger wrote:On November 19 2019 09:24 royalroadweed wrote:On November 19 2019 08:34 BisuDagger wrote:
Voidray's should have increased speed inside pylon or warp prism power. Imagine going WP void ray and entering warp in state to not only add ground units but increase the offensive micro potential of voidrays. No upgrade needed and I would welcome the synergy between robots and stargate. I also like how defensively it would be impactful too. So like a shitty version of creep? Yeah. That's one way to look at it. As a side question, how come photon cannons dont scale with upgrades? They could be great in the late game for defense if they did scale. They scale with shields. Just like Terran gets building armor. Usualy toss dont seem to invest into sheilds though since it’s so expensive. Yeah, maybe it should match the armor upgrades instead. Just slamp an upgrade on them via the "Colossus den"  and it's done. This way it doesn't affect any early game turtling nonsense and it would help in the later games stages. Something like more shields/damage/range etc. This way it doesn't affect any cannor rush either. I thought the late game upgrade for cannons are 2 shield batteries beside it? ^_^ OR. OR!!!! We can place 5 upgrades on nexus 1) Unlocks when the Twilight is done - slight increase to the frequency of shooting 2) Unlocks when the Templar Archives are done - increase to the maximum amount of shields 3) Unlocks when the Dark Templar ARchives are done - invisible cannons (visible after the pylon dies) 4) Unlocks when the Fleet Bacon is done - bigger range 5) Unlocks when the Robo Bay is done - more health(or bigger armor) I know nothing will go in but one can dream  You're missing the beta version where you can warp cannons to other pylon locations.
ANd just to be fair and equal, Terran can now lift Missile Turrets
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On November 19 2019 08:34 BisuDagger wrote:
Voidray's should have increased speed inside pylon or warp prism power. Imagine going WP void ray and entering warp in state to not only add ground units but increase the offensive micro potential of voidrays. No upgrade needed and I would welcome the synergy between robots and stargate. I also like how defensively it would be impactful too.
I freaking loved the thinking behind this. A situational boost that doesn't rely on yet another upgrade.
Who knows how it would actually work out when play tested, but it could add another layer of strategy for pylon placement. And it's another reason why unfolded warp prisms must be taken down at any cost.
This actually makes more sense to me than zerg units suddenly becoming able to move faster because the ground became grey and spongy. : )
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the idea with creep working as a speed boosts is probably the same one behind a moving sidewalk, as you walk on the ground the ground itself is moving greatly increasing movement speed
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On November 19 2019 20:51 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2019 20:26 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2019 20:03 Harris1st wrote:On November 19 2019 19:55 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2019 10:22 BisuDagger wrote:On November 19 2019 10:01 washikie wrote:On November 19 2019 09:50 BisuDagger wrote:On November 19 2019 09:24 royalroadweed wrote:On November 19 2019 08:34 BisuDagger wrote:
Voidray's should have increased speed inside pylon or warp prism power. Imagine going WP void ray and entering warp in state to not only add ground units but increase the offensive micro potential of voidrays. No upgrade needed and I would welcome the synergy between robots and stargate. I also like how defensively it would be impactful too. So like a shitty version of creep? Yeah. That's one way to look at it. As a side question, how come photon cannons dont scale with upgrades? They could be great in the late game for defense if they did scale. They scale with shields. Just like Terran gets building armor. Usualy toss dont seem to invest into sheilds though since it’s so expensive. Yeah, maybe it should match the armor upgrades instead. Just slamp an upgrade on them via the "Colossus den" and it's done. This way it doesn't affect any early game turtling nonsense and it would help in the later games stages. Something like more shields/damage/range etc. This way it doesn't affect any cannor rush either. I thought the late game upgrade for cannons are 2 shield batteries beside it? ^_^ OR. OR!!!! We can place 5 upgrades on nexus 1) Unlocks when the Twilight is done - slight increase to the frequency of shooting 2) Unlocks when the Templar Archives are done - increase to the maximum amount of shields 3) Unlocks when the Dark Templar ARchives are done - invisible cannons (visible after the pylon dies) 4) Unlocks when the Fleet Bacon is done - bigger range 5) Unlocks when the Robo Bay is done - more health(or bigger armor) I know nothing will go in but one can dream You're missing the beta version where you can warp cannons to other pylon locations.
Well I went with more standard approach except with the invis upgrate OTOH why not have at least some? It's not like they will be game breaking anyway.
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On November 17 2019 06:16 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 03:40 Kitai wrote:On November 17 2019 02:23 Haukinger wrote:On November 17 2019 00:42 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)? Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already. Storm and banelings justayin', Banelings, too, of course. In fact, I'd make _all_ splash make indiscriminately friendly firing. That sounds like one of the worst ideas ever lol. Can you imagine your opponent killing your baneling in a pack of like 20, setting off a chain reaction that instantly explodes your entire army? That would be funny :D
Apart from that, one could easily increase baneling life a bit so they survive a baneling hit. Or one would "just" split one's banelings.
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On November 17 2019 09:54 Ben... wrote:
I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly.
So, are we making scans bigger too since the maps are getting bigger?
The Protoss QQ in this thread is delicious. The same reaction when EMP buff was introduced. Cry me a river.
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Northern Ireland23756 Posts
On November 20 2019 09:36 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 09:54 Ben... wrote:
I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly. So, are we making scans bigger too since the maps are getting bigger? The Protoss QQ in this thread is delicious. The same reaction when EMP buff was introduced. Cry me a river.
EMP buff is pretty big. Plus the charge nerf is pretty big.
Might work out in a better and more dynamic matchup, stilll pretty sizeable nerfs.
If you want to characterise the least whiny race of the 3 in the game by as whiners by all means go ahead though, don’t think I’ll be alone in thinking you’re talking shit
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On November 20 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 09:36 Pentarp wrote:On November 17 2019 09:54 Ben... wrote:
I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly. So, are we making scans bigger too since the maps are getting bigger? The Protoss QQ in this thread is delicious. The same reaction when EMP buff was introduced. Cry me a river. EMP buff is pretty big. Plus the charge nerf is pretty big. Might work out in a better and more dynamic matchup, stilll pretty sizeable nerfs. If you want to characterise the least whiny race of the 3 in the game by as whiners by all means go ahead though, don’t think I’ll be alone in thinking you’re talking shit
I am characterizing the posts here made by individuals such as yourself. The non-whiner Protoss are not busy making a mountain of a molehill.
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On November 20 2019 09:36 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 09:54 Ben... wrote:
I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly. So, are we making scans bigger too since the maps are getting bigger? The Protoss QQ in this thread is delicious. The same reaction when EMP buff was introduced. Cry me a river.
I wasn't whining at all. I was just pointing out why I thought the initial change made sense since it followed similar logic to past scouting-based changes, and how their reasoning for walking back the change was bad because it seemed subjective in a way they usually aren't.
The only person with a hostile tone right now in this thread is you. There's no need for that.
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On November 20 2019 11:15 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 09:36 Pentarp wrote:On November 17 2019 09:54 Ben... wrote:
I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly. So, are we making scans bigger too since the maps are getting bigger? The Protoss QQ in this thread is delicious. The same reaction when EMP buff was introduced. Cry me a river. I wasn't whining at all. I was just pointing out why I thought the initial change made sense since it followed similar logic to past scouting-based changes, and how their reasoning for walking back the change was bad because it seemed subjective in a way they usually aren't. The only person with a hostile tone right now in this thread is you. There's no need for that.
On November 20 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
If you want to characterise the least whiny race of the 3 in the game by as whiners by all means go ahead though, don’t think I’ll be alone in thinking you’re talking shit
Are you sure?
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Well, if there was a ladder for whining, Terran surely is miles ahead of the other two.
Observers are mainly to detect invisible units and drops/ attacks and scouting (specially in the early to midgame) has to be done with either oracles or sentrys so that doesn't change
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Northern Ireland23756 Posts
On November 20 2019 18:04 Harris1st wrote:
Well, if there was a ladder for whining, Terran surely is miles ahead of the other two.
Observers are mainly to detect invisible units and drops/ attacks and scouting (specially in the early to midgame) has to be done with either oracles or sentrys so that doesn't change
It is somewhat bizarre that Protoss have the only unit that is designed purely for scouting and info and it’s not great in that capacity anymore. Even pre speed nerf if that goes through, tech paths in Legacy are set quicker and it takes ages to traverse some maps.
Luckily Protoss has other decent options, but still. Really don’t understand this nerf to speed, especially with the Raven getting a speed boost.
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Northern Ireland23756 Posts
On November 20 2019 11:28 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 11:15 Ben... wrote:On November 20 2019 09:36 Pentarp wrote:On November 17 2019 09:54 Ben... wrote:
I thought the observer speed buff was reasonable because the previous speed was from a time when maps were tiny compared to how they are today. It made sense that observers be a bit faster because it would otherwise take them much longer to get across the map or move between bases.
It's somewhat akin to how they boosted the speed of overlords once maps started to get bigger. When the game first came out, overlords were incredibly slow, but as maps got bigger overlords could be less and less relied upon for scouting because it took forever for them to cross the map, which put zerg at a scouting disadvantage.
And yes, I agree with everyone saying their stated reason for reverting the observer change is bad. There's tons of cases in the game where someone just barely misses something, and it's no different with observers. By that logic they should nerf DT speed too because sometimes terrans don't get them with one scan or remove medivac boost because they often get away with one shot of health left when being defended. It's silly. So, are we making scans bigger too since the maps are getting bigger? The Protoss QQ in this thread is delicious. The same reaction when EMP buff was introduced. Cry me a river. I wasn't whining at all. I was just pointing out why I thought the initial change made sense since it followed similar logic to past scouting-based changes, and how their reasoning for walking back the change was bad because it seemed subjective in a way they usually aren't. The only person with a hostile tone right now in this thread is you. There's no need for that. Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 09:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
If you want to characterise the least whiny race of the 3 in the game by as whiners by all means go ahead though, don’t think I’ll be alone in thinking you’re talking shit Are you sure?
Apologies for the hostility was uncalled for but there’s a relatively consistent pattern that irritates me.
1. People complain about Protoss incessantly, regardless of if they’re actually OP or not.
2. Protoss gets nerfed, or a race gets a vP targeted buff. Protoss players are concerned as to said changes.
3. Said changes get made anyway and Protoss sucks in a matchup.
People said TL’s Protoss contingent were biased and QQing when we were warning that nerfing the Prism, buffing overlord speed without looking at the PvZ lategame would make Z too favoured in the matchup. Which was exactly what happened, and could easily happen in PvT too if Blizz aren’t careful.
At the real top level PvT is decent IMO, EMP change was a strong impactful one, not OP I don’t think but it definitely helped. Not a perfect matchup yet but not bad, IMO.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On November 20 2019 22:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 18:04 Harris1st wrote:
Well, if there was a ladder for whining, Terran surely is miles ahead of the other two.
Observers are mainly to detect invisible units and drops/ attacks and scouting (specially in the early to midgame) has to be done with either oracles or sentrys so that doesn't change It is somewhat bizarre that Protoss have the only unit that is designed purely for scouting and info and it’s not great in that capacity anymore. Even pre speed nerf if that goes through, tech paths in Legacy are set quicker and it takes ages to traverse some maps. Luckily Protoss has other decent options, but still. Really don’t understand this nerf to speed, especially with the Raven getting a speed boost.
Wrong It never was good in the scouting. That's why we got the free hallucination upgrade  It was too slow in WoL either but we had nothing else so we had to live with it
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On November 20 2019 22:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 18:04 Harris1st wrote:
Well, if there was a ladder for whining, Terran surely is miles ahead of the other two.
Observers are mainly to detect invisible units and drops/ attacks and scouting (specially in the early to midgame) has to be done with either oracles or sentrys so that doesn't change It is somewhat bizarre that Protoss have the only unit that is designed purely for scouting and info and it’s not great in that capacity anymore. Even pre speed nerf if that goes through, tech paths in Legacy are set quicker and it takes ages to traverse some maps. Luckily Protoss has other decent options, but still. Really don’t understand this nerf to speed, especially with the Raven getting a speed boost.
I agree with deacon here. Observers are NOT for scouting but for detecting danger.
It would be nice to give the Observer a spell of some sort to make it more unique and in other ways useful. Like for example a minimap reveal spell(similar to Sensor Tower) which can tag one unit for a minute, to make up for its slow move speed, on a cooldown
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Are observers the only unit Blizzard intentionally made more F2 friendly?
Normally Blizzard tries to balance for pro level, but Blizzard made observers more F2 friendly which is balancing for gold level. Has anything like that happened before? Blizzard intentionally trying to balance the game for low level gameplay?
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On November 20 2019 23:37 MockHamill wrote:
Are observers the only unit Blizzard intentionally made more F2 friendly?
Normally Blizzard tries to balance for pro level, but Blizzard made observers more F2 friendly which is balancing for gold level. Has anything like that happened before? Blizzard intentionally trying to balance the game for low level gameplay?
F2 friendly? Are you referring to the deploy mode that they put on obs and overseers? That deploy is used plenty by pros without having anything to do with the select all units command.
Blizzard intentionally trying to balance the game for low level gameplay?
That's something that they regularly take into consideration for all three races, it's come up numerous times in the discussion blue posts
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On November 16 2019 04:40 SC-Shield wrote:Show nested quote +
Void Ray
New upgrade found on the Fleet Beacon: Flux Vanes
Increases the Void Ray’s movement speed from 3.5 to 4.65.
Increases the Void Ray’s acceleration from 2.8 to 3.76.
I know balance patches aren't for team games, but this will make team games even less enjoyable. Games will be full of noobs who mass void rays and run away with super fast void rays. Also, "team games don't matter" is bad attitude because most people play casual StarCraft (custom games and team games), so if you demotivate these people, there will be even less people playing. So I thought the goal wasn't to have less players than games of competitors. Even for 1vs1, this change doesn't make much sense. Most protoss players at high level rarely make void rays, especially after fleet beacon. And when it's that late in game, it's likely they'll use recall to escape instead. It will be unlikely such people would have mass void ray army, but instead they'll also have tempests and carriers which can't fly away as fast as this void ray upgrade. Totally useless idea both for 1vs1 and team games if you ask me.
On November 16 2019 16:36 hiroshOne wrote:
But the alternative they propose to Zerg means this race will be raped in lategame. +1 Lurkers won't cut it without proper lategame antiair. Especially hiw Protoss air has been buffed with VoidRays. Corruptors will do shit, and this new spell from Infestor is just a gimick. Destroying balance in other way is not fixing anything.
I want to emphasize these 2 posts. On the one hand I agree to post 1, on the other hand a change like that could take the VR out of the noob unit state that it is in a bit right now. It will for sure cause need for further changes of the unit afterwards, but thats actually a way to go with the unit.
The second thing seems more important to me. VRs are a good counter to corruptors already and will get even better. With nerfed infestors and the mothership buff, it might get problematic to at all counter the protoss air anymore.
And then back to post 1, in order to not neglect team games altogether, it would make protoss air even more dominating in teamgames.
But all that is without taken into account the new infestor ability. I mean 50% less damage from air units is a lot, especially in team games. Infestors will become a must have unit in team games so you can just spam the ability on bio and other units of your teammates. I think this will have to be nerfed to 40% or even 30% soon.
Furthermore I agree that the infested terran should probably just stay in the game as an unfavorable option. Just double the energy cost and keep it as it is, so it can be used but will hurt the infestors a lot and still get the new spell for the infestor. In this regard, is there at all any other unit with 4 spells on it? If not, that might not be an option to be introduced here.
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On November 20 2019 23:49 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 23:37 MockHamill wrote:
Are observers the only unit Blizzard intentionally made more F2 friendly?
Normally Blizzard tries to balance for pro level, but Blizzard made observers more F2 friendly which is balancing for gold level. Has anything like that happened before? Blizzard intentionally trying to balance the game for low level gameplay?
F2 friendly? Are you referring to the deploy mode that they put on obs and overseers? That deploy is used plenty by pros without having anything to do with the select all units command.
Yeah it is used by pro players but the reason for making the change was to help F2 players not moving their observers.
It so strange compared to the rest of the balance history. Blizzard always tries to balance for pro level, this is the only time I think where Blizzard made changes in order to help gold levels, which also had some impact on pro level.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Even for 1vs1, this change doesn't make much sense. Most protoss players at high level rarely make void rays, especially after fleet beacon. And when it's that late in game, it's likely they'll use recall to escape instead. It will be unlikely such people would have mass void ray army, but instead they'll also have tempests and carriers which can't fly away as fast as this void ray upgrade. Totally useless idea both for 1vs1 and team games if you ask me.
The speed and acceleration change has an enormous impact on the combat power and harass potential of Vrays.. being able to fly back to your base faster is only a bonus. You can bounce between bases to stretch defenders thin or chase down armies which took a bad engagement rather than having them disengage and run off with no further losses.
The slow acceleration of the voidray combined with the fact that it often has to stand still to apply damage (thus slowing down and having to accelerate again) makes it clunky to use and the accel boost from flux vanes improves that dramatically.
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EPT
