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United Kingdom20345 Posts
Protoss: Please don't forget that you need a fusion core to get liberator range now.
Fusion Core has been a requirement to research Liberator range for years.
This puts the research on a building that was formerly sitting there idle rather than forcing your starport onto a tech lab, so it's removing a formerly necessary production bottleneck.
Medivac upgrade is also being moved to there and buffed so we're likely to see a lot more of it (fusion core double dip for lib+medivac upgrades is a lot more attractive than techlabbing your starport for ages and building a fusion core anyway..)
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On November 21 2019 10:46 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss: Please don't forget that you need a fusion core to get liberator range now. Fusion Core has been a requirement to research Liberator range for years. This puts the research on a building that was formerly sitting there idle rather than forcing your starport onto a tech lab, so it's removing a formerly necessary production bottleneck. Medivac upgrade is also being moved to there and buffed so we're likely to see a lot more of it (fusion core double dip for lib+medivac upgrades is a lot more attractive than techlabbing your starport for ages and building a fusion core anyway..)
Noob spotted... But the range nerf will be important!
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
Indeed i like less reliance on lib range vs tempest vs brood lord dynamics
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I will interesting to see what the balance will be.
My guess is that TvZ will be mostly even but ZvP will still be Zerg favored, but less so than now.
TvP will probably be balanced. Maybe traditional mech will be viable now when blueflame Hellbat comes out sooner and Zealots will be less opressive. Then again Disruptors will outrange everything Terran has now when Liberator range is nerfed.
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On November 22 2019 00:49 MockHamill wrote:
ZvP will still be Zerg favored, but less so than now.
How you come to this conclusion ? In HSC the winrate of Zerg in ZvP is 34.3%...And I haven't seen all the match, but from what i've seen soO and Serral weren't able to beat skytoss.
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Blizzard done got @utism? It's called add reavers to the gaem. Also, Robotics needs a unit that hits air. Chr1st, it's not that hard. No one likes being forced to build stalkers. Dragoons did more damage and also were 100/80 (more durable).
Stalkers are not worth it spamming at 50 gas cost with so many other things needed. Oh, but only stalkers hit air so. Any true fan of SC knows the amount of upgrades Fleet Beacon had to choose from. Not to mention the wealth of upgrades available at Templar Archives.
No one likes tempests. Yet all they do is keep changing it. Carrier had 4 base armor in BW. Someone is very uncreative on the SC2 team at Blizzard. Really; it's a shame what they have done to protoss in this game.
User was warned for this post.
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I would like to see more zerg build infestors. P.bomb + fungal combo is still deadly against air units.
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On November 23 2019 17:30 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 00:49 MockHamill wrote:
ZvP will still be Zerg favored, but less so than now.
How you come to this conclusion ? In HSC the winrate of Zerg in ZvP is 34.3%...And I haven't seen all the match, but from what i've seen soO and Serral weren't able to beat skytoss.
Because Zerg still have Swarm Host/Nydus which is still really really good in the midgame plus chargelots got weaker. Protoss may be slightly favored late game but vipers are still great vs Protoss.
We will see though, no pro player have really adapted to the new patch yet, give it a couple of months first.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On November 23 2019 18:45 SC3:UED Returns wrote:
Blizzard done got @utism? It's called add reavers to the gaem. Also, Robotics needs a unit that hits air. Chr1st, it's not that hard. No one likes being forced to build stalkers. Dragoons did more damage and also were 100/80 (more durable).
Stalkers are not worth it spamming at 50 gas cost with so many other things needed. Oh, but only stalkers hit air so. Any true fan of SC knows the amount of upgrades Fleet Beacon had to choose from. Not to mention the wealth of upgrades available at Templar Archives.
No one likes tempests. Yet all they do is keep changing it. Carrier had 4 base armor in BW. Someone is very uncreative on the SC2 team at Blizzard. Really; it's a shame what they have done to protoss in this game.
Someone is uncreative on the Blizzard SC2 team, so... just have Protoss have the same units as BW?
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On November 23 2019 17:30 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 00:49 MockHamill wrote:
ZvP will still be Zerg favored, but less so than now.
How you come to this conclusion ? In HSC the winrate of Zerg in ZvP is 34.3%...And I haven't seen all the match, but from what i've seen soO and Serral weren't able to beat skytoss.
The patch isn’t even live yet, it’s early. I didn’t see a huge amount of games just yet, I haven’t seen much lurker play or the ‘not dark swarm’ ability yet, which are at least meant to fill those gaps.
Plus in groups there are some real real mismatches too.
I don’t think Zerg beats skytoss playing the old way though for sure.
Stats is a long term strategic genius. Wasn’t alone in watching many games going ‘why are you playing for the late game, you’ll will lose’ and he did a lot, but he’s got a hell of a lot of practice almost making it work so now he’s got a lot of practice in a patch where it’s going to be much more viable.
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On November 23 2019 20:17 MockHamill wrote:
We will see though, no pro player have really adapted to the new patch yet, give it a couple of months first.
Skytoss is OP since 9 years period. If they remove any counter, Zerg won't find a solution for a problem that exists since WOL.
IT nerf ? Fine, do the same to carriers ! In HOTS, it was alike = SH vs skytoss. They killed SH, they don't nerf skytoss = skytoss was invincible.
So no we don't need months to figure out, actually this change shouldn't have been done because it's silly... But yeah if you're Protoss i guess you want to enjoy free wins for months, but it's not how balance should work, not "make my race OP" because i play it, but make the game balanced for all race.
Not to mention mass carrier is also horrible design, casters mention how boring were the games with skytoss.
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Infestors could have been solved by increasing the IT energy from 25 to 75 or 100 and increasing fungal energy cost.
The true imbalance issue zvp was not solved.
Nydus + swarmhost, specifically, early cheap midgame nydus. And the swarmhost.
I am fine with lategame skytoss being OP, in terms of fairness, but they skirted the real issue.
Nydus will now enter a new age.
Expect to see 3+ midgame Nydus worms. Now that zerg has a timer aka before Uber-skytoss, zergs will be desperate to end games sooner. When every toss gets 5 pronged attacks with siege lurkers. I predict the issues of before will reemerge
These are my opinions only. I am D1, so .... I am probably wrong.
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On November 23 2019 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 20:17 MockHamill wrote:
We will see though, no pro player have really adapted to the new patch yet, give it a couple of months first. Skytoss is OP since 9 years period. If they remove any counter, Zerg won't find a solution for a problem that exists since WOL. IT nerf ? Fine, do the same to carriers ! In HOTS, it was alike = SH vs skytoss. They killed SH, they don't nerf skytoss = skytoss was invincible. So no we don't need months to figure out, actually this change shouldn't have been done because it's silly... But yeah if you're Protoss i guess you want to enjoy free wins for months, but it's not how balance should work, not "make my race OP" because i play it, but make the game balanced for all race. Not to mention mass carrier is also horrible design, casters mention how boring were the games with skytoss.
I am Terran, not Protoss.
I do not think sky toss is OP. It is strongest composition in the game, but it is beatable. And you have plenty of ways to kill Protoss in the midgame with both Zerg and Terran.
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Expect to see 3+ midgame Nydus worms. Now that zerg has a timer aka before Uber-skytoss, zergs will be desperate to end games sooner. When every toss gets 5 pronged attacks with siege lurkers. I predict the issues of before will reemerge
Let's be honest the only interesting part of SC2 is mid game, early is just droning/soft harass, lategame is just deathball.
Lategame has never been balanced because you can win in midgame at pro level, but the majority of the players have to play lategame.
And lategame is terrible to play on SC2, in TvZ Terran is camping under turett/PF/liberator/ghost, Zerg is camping under spores/broodlords/infestor/viper, Protoss is camping under photon/shield skytoss/archons/HT.
These composition should be nerfed, and we should have a never ending midgame where after constant actions and fights and one of the two players ends up to take the advantage and wins.
But what is happening, is the one who wins, is the one who manages to get his deathball, even if he stayed passive the whole game and achieved nothing. What changed from patch to patch is just who has the strongest deathball in lategame...
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On November 23 2019 21:52 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +
Expect to see 3+ midgame Nydus worms. Now that zerg has a timer aka before Uber-skytoss, zergs will be desperate to end games sooner. When every toss gets 5 pronged attacks with siege lurkers. I predict the issues of before will reemerge
Let's be honest the only interesting part of SC2 is mid game, early is just droning/soft harass, lategame is just deathball. Lategame has never been balanced because you can win in midgame at pro level, but the majority of the players have to play lategame. And lategame is terrible to play on SC2, in TvZ Terran is camping under turett/PF/liberator/ghost, Zerg is camping under spores/broodlords/infestor/viper, Protoss is camping under photon/shield skytoss/archons/HT. These composition should be nerfed, and we should have a never ending midgame where after constant actions and fights and one of the two players ends up to take the advantage and wins. But what is happening, is the one who wins, is the one who manages to get his deathball, even if he stayed passive the whole game and achieved nothing. What changed from patch to patch is just who has the strongest deathball in lategame...
Well Said.
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And please, return the 60 shield zealot. Instead they would rather endlessly change charge. Or blink research time.
Giving the viking mechanical damage is madness. And what happened to the robotics classification? Let robotic units be classified as robotic. As it was in SC1. Why can't protoss repair? Shields supposedly. At least let them keep their unique robotics class.
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On November 24 2019 03:57 SC3:UED Returns wrote:
And please, return the 60 shield zealot. Instead they would rather endlessly change charge. Or blink research time.
Giving the viking mechanical damage is madness. And what happened to the robotics classification? Let robotic units be classified as robotic. As it was in SC1. Why can't protoss repair? Shields supposedly. At least let them keep their unique robotics class.
agree on vikings it hurts tvt too, +15 hp(like they wanted and reverted) and removal of +8 dmg to mech would be nice.
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On November 23 2019 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 20:17 MockHamill wrote:
We will see though, no pro player have really adapted to the new patch yet, give it a couple of months first. Skytoss is OP since 9 years period. If they remove any counter, Zerg won't find a solution for a problem that exists since WOL. IT nerf ? Fine, do the same to carriers ! In HOTS, it was alike = SH vs skytoss. They killed SH, they don't nerf skytoss = skytoss was invincible. So no we don't need months to figure out, actually this change shouldn't have been done because it's silly... But yeah if you're Protoss i guess you want to enjoy free wins for months, but it's not how balance should work, not "make my race OP" because i play it, but make the game balanced for all race. Not to mention mass carrier is also horrible design, casters mention how boring were the games with skytoss.
They did nerf skytoss. Carriers are way worse than they were last time mass carrier with HTs was good... Did everyone forget about the carrier nerfs 1 year ago? DPS is way lower and interceptors are produced a lot slower. Even with the recent buff to interceptor build time it's still slower than it was before.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On November 24 2019 08:07 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 21:35 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 23 2019 20:17 MockHamill wrote:
We will see though, no pro player have really adapted to the new patch yet, give it a couple of months first. Skytoss is OP since 9 years period. If they remove any counter, Zerg won't find a solution for a problem that exists since WOL. IT nerf ? Fine, do the same to carriers ! In HOTS, it was alike = SH vs skytoss. They killed SH, they don't nerf skytoss = skytoss was invincible. So no we don't need months to figure out, actually this change shouldn't have been done because it's silly... But yeah if you're Protoss i guess you want to enjoy free wins for months, but it's not how balance should work, not "make my race OP" because i play it, but make the game balanced for all race. Not to mention mass carrier is also horrible design, casters mention how boring were the games with skytoss. They did nerf skytoss. Carriers are way worse than they were last time mass carrier with HTs was good... Did everyone forget about the carrier nerfs 1 year ago? DPS is way lower and interceptors are produced a lot slower. Even with the recent buff to interceptor build time it's still slower than it was before.
Also did everyone forget that Skytoss once sucked balls so hard that a player making a Carrier in a pro game was basically a meme for a chunk of WoL?
‘Skytoss has been OP for 9 years’ is preposterous and simply isn’t true
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The just go skytoss is another tactic tactic that the terran whine force uses. Terran knows basically every unit they have destroys anything coming from stargate. We all remember widow mines had to one shot an oracle, else the world will end. Just check Crythanias's twitter page during that timeframe. Terran will forever whine about the myth of toss being strong.
And sadly, blizzard listens. You have Whineito himself, whining in the obs speed nerf, and so on. What makes it worse is blizzard just cannot stop castrating anything protoss might be able to use to win a game. Especially in ZVP. Zerg just runs over protoss. Again the constant, incessant terran whine about TVP makes it even worse for P against Z.
Instead we have balance team that actually thinks; the whole balance of the game is based around the research time of blink itself. When blink research was 100/100, you would of thought hell froze over given the response from Tearans. I can think of many simple things that would help protoss, right now, for the next patch.
Instead the "Balance Team" (perhaps one gold terran player that can't scan an obs correctly who agrees with WhineIto) would rather nerf obs, endlessly change charge statistics and make more useless changes to the adept. Who no one wanted as a unit anyway, but that is years ago now.
60 shield zealot. Reaver is better than derpruptor by far. Robotics class returned (unit classification). Robo unit that can target air (please tell me the amount of units that come from factory that hit air, it's more than you think). Adepts should be able to hit air (they do in campaign and co op, this is more because of aforementioned robo selection is terrible, so something is needed). Must more unit variety to choose from out of the SC1 Stargate.
Yet; sigh, blizzard would rather listen to the TCF, Terran Cry Force. Luckily people like Take are keeping the game alive with the tournament this weekend. Otherwise ladder was looking ded as hell. Just way too many abusive zergs that think it is skill to abuse protoss. And of course throw in the TCF, and the zergs have a lisence to keep doing it.
One last point. If protoss had a unit like liberator, that could be shift clicked into massacring worker lines, the tearans would have whined that unit out of the game a long time ago and we all know that to be true.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
