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United Kingdom20340 Posts
On November 20 2019 23:54 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 23:49 Cyro wrote:On November 20 2019 23:37 MockHamill wrote:
Are observers the only unit Blizzard intentionally made more F2 friendly?
Normally Blizzard tries to balance for pro level, but Blizzard made observers more F2 friendly which is balancing for gold level. Has anything like that happened before? Blizzard intentionally trying to balance the game for low level gameplay?
F2 friendly? Are you referring to the deploy mode that they put on obs and overseers? That deploy is used plenty by pros without having anything to do with the select all units command. Yeah it is used by pro players but the reason for making the change was to help F2 players not moving their observers
Source?
Observer
New ability "Surveillance Mode."
Increases vision by 25% and immobilizes the observer.
Overseer
New ability "Oversight"
Increases vision by 25% and immobilizes the Overseer.
Nothing about select all units button in here, it's not only Protoss. I don't even agree about it being done for the reasons that you say because the ability is designed to be interesting and useful in pro play all the same, there was a follow up change which removes sounds and makes observers harder to see while deployed.
It so strange compared to the rest of the balance history. Blizzard always tries to balance for pro level, this is the only time I think where Blizzard made changes in order to help gold levels, which also had some impact on pro level.
No. Stop with the loaded questions, it's a very dishonest way to "debate".
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On November 16 2019 21:27 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Considering this is an end of the year big patch the changes are really underwhelming. I get that zerg needed nerfs, but none of the gameplay changes are going to make the game more fun from what I can imagine.
When serral won blizzcon in 2018 I thought the game was really good to be honest. Balance wise as well as fun to play. The changes for 2019 were bad, and it really had it's impact on the whole year for tournaments for SC.
At this point I'd rather just go back to the 2018 patch than all these weird changes we have now.
Considering the fact that new generations don't grow up that much with computers anymore but instead with smartphones and probably still consoles, making the game more fun, which is as well something concerning me, means to make it more fun for an aging target group.
For this target group it will get less and less fun to have click speed (or pure mechanics) be translated into skill but instead things like decision making.
And that in the end means to take away the speed of the game at several different points. People are eager to find the old RTS gameplay of Age of Empires back, where matches could last hours upon hours. Ok, lets not ovedo it, but as well broodwar was a way less fast paced game than SC2 is too in reaching late games as in fights itself, which took way longer and gave more time to micro and make a difference than SC2 stim storm splash done, where pre fight setup (positioning) have a bigger impact than it probably should.
Overall, what I want to say is, making SC2 a more fun game wont probably be possible in the tight corset of a 10 to 15 minute gameplay, which it now is on average.
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On November 21 2019 00:10 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 21:27 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Considering this is an end of the year big patch the changes are really underwhelming. I get that zerg needed nerfs, but none of the gameplay changes are going to make the game more fun from what I can imagine.
When serral won blizzcon in 2018 I thought the game was really good to be honest. Balance wise as well as fun to play. The changes for 2019 were bad, and it really had it's impact on the whole year for tournaments for SC.
At this point I'd rather just go back to the 2018 patch than all these weird changes we have now. Considering the fact that new generations don't grow up that much with computers anymore but instead with smartphones and probably still consoles, making the game more fun, which is as well something concerning me, means to make it more fun for an aging target group. For this target group it will get less and less fun to have click speed (or pure mechanics) be translated into skill but instead things like decision making. And that in the end means to take away the speed of the game at several different points. People are eager to find the old RTS gameplay of Age of Empires back, where matches could last hours upon hours. Ok, lets not ovedo it, but as well broodwar was a way less fast paced game than SC2 is too in reaching late games as in fights itself, which took way longer and gave more time to micro and make a difference than SC2 stim storm splash done, where pre fight setup (positioning) have a bigger impact than it probably should. Overall, what I want to say is, making SC2 a more fun game wont probably be possible in the tight corset of a 10 to 15 minute gameplay, which it now is on average.
I actually think they got that part right, even a 15 min game is long these days, it is 3-4 times as much as the average phone game takes. Even older people spend seconds scanning though stuff on the internet, often missing out on important details.
I don't think building workers and buildings is that fun and they did an effort to make sure race race has some early game scermish options.
Every WOL vod starting up with casters trying to talked about something interesting outside of the game got old pretty fast...
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On November 21 2019 00:54 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 00:10 LSN wrote:On November 16 2019 21:27 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Considering this is an end of the year big patch the changes are really underwhelming. I get that zerg needed nerfs, but none of the gameplay changes are going to make the game more fun from what I can imagine.
When serral won blizzcon in 2018 I thought the game was really good to be honest. Balance wise as well as fun to play. The changes for 2019 were bad, and it really had it's impact on the whole year for tournaments for SC.
At this point I'd rather just go back to the 2018 patch than all these weird changes we have now. Considering the fact that new generations don't grow up that much with computers anymore but instead with smartphones and probably still consoles, making the game more fun, which is as well something concerning me, means to make it more fun for an aging target group. For this target group it will get less and less fun to have click speed (or pure mechanics) be translated into skill but instead things like decision making. And that in the end means to take away the speed of the game at several different points. People are eager to find the old RTS gameplay of Age of Empires back, where matches could last hours upon hours. Ok, lets not ovedo it, but as well broodwar was a way less fast paced game than SC2 is too in reaching late games as in fights itself, which took way longer and gave more time to micro and make a difference than SC2 stim storm splash done, where pre fight setup (positioning) have a bigger impact than it probably should. Overall, what I want to say is, making SC2 a more fun game wont probably be possible in the tight corset of a 10 to 15 minute gameplay, which it now is on average. I actually think they got that part right, even a 15 min game is long these days, it is 3-4 times as much as the average phone game takes. Even older people spend seconds scanning though stuff on the internet, often missing out on important details. I don't think building workers and buildings is that fun and they did an effort to make sure race race has some early game scermish options. Every WOL vod starting up with casters trying to talked about something interesting outside of the game got old pretty fast...
Making buildings, workers, gathering resources, expanding your empire and large "slow" epic battles have always been part of the RTS genre.
If ppl keep flooding Blizz with moba-wannabe feedbacks, sc2 is definitely doomed.
On a side note, I think wc3 (which is not a rts in my humble opinion) ruined the concept of rts.
A lot of people loved wc3 for the heroes arena feeling but then mobas came out and unfortunately the game companies kept emulating if not cloning the wc3 model resulting in a moba-wannabe generation of RTS.
Soon or later the phone normies era will come to an end in order for nerd games to be back on track.
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United Kingdom20340 Posts
Every WOL vod starting up with casters trying to talked about something interesting outside of the game got old pretty fast...
They always did that even when there were plenty of interesting things happening in the game, i take it more of a sign of bad casting than bad gameplay.
ESPECIALLY since we still see it very regularly today. B and C-level casters will be talking about what type of dog they like while player 1 is attacking player 2 with blink stalkers. Never once mentioning the twilight council or blink research, let alone any kind of small detail like unit positioning or worker count differentials!
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I think in LOTV the economy stuff is actually a bit fast. You have to be thinking and acting on expansions such a huge fraction of the time to be any good, there's always something to do and focusing attention instead on "more fun" (subjective) things like unit positioning and control will set you surprisingly far behind if it compromises your economy just a little bit.
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so many typos in that official announcement...
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now?
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On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now?
The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then.
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On November 21 2019 04:47 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now? The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then.
I'm convinced it's going to be massively Terran favored. TvZ might be balanced but TvP is looking like it's going to be hilariously broken in favor of Terran. Chargelots were needed to hold allins from the Terran. Without them and with 11 second Interference Matrix and with a massive buff to ranged Liberator production...I don't see what Protoss is going to do other than cheese every game or lose to Terran 2 base allins.
HSC will show for sure.
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
On November 21 2019 00:54 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 00:10 LSN wrote:On November 16 2019 21:27 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Considering this is an end of the year big patch the changes are really underwhelming. I get that zerg needed nerfs, but none of the gameplay changes are going to make the game more fun from what I can imagine.
When serral won blizzcon in 2018 I thought the game was really good to be honest. Balance wise as well as fun to play. The changes for 2019 were bad, and it really had it's impact on the whole year for tournaments for SC.
At this point I'd rather just go back to the 2018 patch than all these weird changes we have now. Considering the fact that new generations don't grow up that much with computers anymore but instead with smartphones and probably still consoles, making the game more fun, which is as well something concerning me, means to make it more fun for an aging target group. For this target group it will get less and less fun to have click speed (or pure mechanics) be translated into skill but instead things like decision making. And that in the end means to take away the speed of the game at several different points. People are eager to find the old RTS gameplay of Age of Empires back, where matches could last hours upon hours. Ok, lets not ovedo it, but as well broodwar was a way less fast paced game than SC2 is too in reaching late games as in fights itself, which took way longer and gave more time to micro and make a difference than SC2 stim storm splash done, where pre fight setup (positioning) have a bigger impact than it probably should. Overall, what I want to say is, making SC2 a more fun game wont probably be possible in the tight corset of a 10 to 15 minute gameplay, which it now is on average. I actually think they got that part right, even a 15 min game is long these days, it is 3-4 times as much as the average phone game takes. Even older people spend seconds scanning though stuff on the internet, often missing out on important details. I don't think building workers and buildings is that fun and they did an effort to make sure race race has some early game scermish options. Every WOL vod starting up with casters trying to talked about something interesting outside of the game got old pretty fast...
And today that's not happening. Wait, it is! So what did we really achieve? Shorter games and? 
On November 21 2019 05:06 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 04:47 Ben... wrote:On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now? The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then. I'm convinced it's going to be massively Terran favored. TvZ might be balanced but TvP is looking like it's going to be hilariously broken in favor of Terran. Chargelots were needed to hold allins from the Terran. Without them and with 11 second Interference Matrix and with a massive buff to ranged Liberator production...I don't see what Protoss is going to do other than cheese every game or lose to Terran 2 base allins. HSC will show for sure.
IMO HSC is too early after the patch, so it won't tell that much, late December or January would tell more.
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On November 21 2019 06:00 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 00:54 Slydie wrote:On November 21 2019 00:10 LSN wrote:On November 16 2019 21:27 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Considering this is an end of the year big patch the changes are really underwhelming. I get that zerg needed nerfs, but none of the gameplay changes are going to make the game more fun from what I can imagine.
When serral won blizzcon in 2018 I thought the game was really good to be honest. Balance wise as well as fun to play. The changes for 2019 were bad, and it really had it's impact on the whole year for tournaments for SC.
At this point I'd rather just go back to the 2018 patch than all these weird changes we have now. Considering the fact that new generations don't grow up that much with computers anymore but instead with smartphones and probably still consoles, making the game more fun, which is as well something concerning me, means to make it more fun for an aging target group. For this target group it will get less and less fun to have click speed (or pure mechanics) be translated into skill but instead things like decision making. And that in the end means to take away the speed of the game at several different points. People are eager to find the old RTS gameplay of Age of Empires back, where matches could last hours upon hours. Ok, lets not ovedo it, but as well broodwar was a way less fast paced game than SC2 is too in reaching late games as in fights itself, which took way longer and gave more time to micro and make a difference than SC2 stim storm splash done, where pre fight setup (positioning) have a bigger impact than it probably should. Overall, what I want to say is, making SC2 a more fun game wont probably be possible in the tight corset of a 10 to 15 minute gameplay, which it now is on average. I actually think they got that part right, even a 15 min game is long these days, it is 3-4 times as much as the average phone game takes. Even older people spend seconds scanning though stuff on the internet, often missing out on important details. I don't think building workers and buildings is that fun and they did an effort to make sure race race has some early game scermish options. Every WOL vod starting up with casters trying to talked about something interesting outside of the game got old pretty fast... And today that's not happening. Wait, it is! So what did we really achieve? Shorter games and? Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 05:06 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 21 2019 04:47 Ben... wrote:On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now? The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then. I'm convinced it's going to be massively Terran favored. TvZ might be balanced but TvP is looking like it's going to be hilariously broken in favor of Terran. Chargelots were needed to hold allins from the Terran. Without them and with 11 second Interference Matrix and with a massive buff to ranged Liberator production...I don't see what Protoss is going to do other than cheese every game or lose to Terran 2 base allins. HSC will show for sure. IMO HSC is too early after the patch, so it won't tell that much, late December or January would tell more.
My issue is that an emergency patch may be needed before then. The changes to Protoss are...very, very concerning and at least on paper, it's going to make any Terran who doesn't ram MMM into them pretty strong. To the point where mid game might be nigh impossible for Protoss.
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Northern Ireland27129 Posts
On November 21 2019 05:06 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 04:47 Ben... wrote:On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now? The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then. I'm convinced it's going to be massively Terran favored. TvZ might be balanced but TvP is looking like it's going to be hilariously broken in favor of Terran. Chargelots were needed to hold allins from the Terran. Without them and with 11 second Interference Matrix and with a massive buff to ranged Liberator production...I don't see what Protoss is going to do other than cheese every game or lose to Terran 2 base allins. HSC will show for sure.
HSC will IMO merely showcase what trying to play old styles in PvT will look like on the new patch, which IMO sees Protoss getting pounded.
I think we need some time for Protoss to adjust before we can make judgements. As it stands Terrans can basically play like they do now when the patch hits, but that will be outright better vs Protoss players playing like they are now.
I really do not see the current standard macro flow of Protoss powering hardcore with an early 3rd being nearly as hard to punish as it is now, and Protoss have played like that for a long time. It’ll always take longer for a race to completely adjust stylistically to a patch than their opponents who will be able to have the same basic game plans only ‘better’
So I think HSC will be interesting to observe for sure but too soon after the patch to really be conclusive about how PvT looks in the longer term
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On November 21 2019 07:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 05:06 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 21 2019 04:47 Ben... wrote:On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now? The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then. I'm convinced it's going to be massively Terran favored. TvZ might be balanced but TvP is looking like it's going to be hilariously broken in favor of Terran. Chargelots were needed to hold allins from the Terran. Without them and with 11 second Interference Matrix and with a massive buff to ranged Liberator production...I don't see what Protoss is going to do other than cheese every game or lose to Terran 2 base allins. HSC will show for sure. HSC will IMO merely showcase what trying to play old styles in PvT will look like on the new patch, which IMO sees Protoss getting pounded. I think we need some time for Protoss to adjust before we can make judgements. As it stands Terrans can basically play like they do now when the patch hits, but that will be outright better vs Protoss players playing like they are now. I really do not see the current standard macro flow of Protoss powering hardcore with an early 3rd being nearly as hard to punish as it is now, and Protoss have played like that for a long time. It’ll always take longer for a race to completely adjust stylistically to a patch than their opponents who will be able to have the same basic game plans only ‘better’ So I think HSC will be interesting to observe for sure but too soon after the patch to really be conclusive about how PvT looks in the longer term
My main concern is that with Terran's 2 base allins getting buffed, their raven timings being buffed and with charge being nerfed...how is Protoss supposed to even take a 3rd? You can;t build it in your main and float it, you can't open with a Nexi or even go gate expand without severe risk, unlike zerg who can go expand pool, pool expand or pool double expand with no issues of being allin'd as a result.
Charge was the lynch pin and with an 11 second IM, Protoss aren't allowed to use other lynch pins.
Annnd then there's the Adept and Observer nerfs...
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I don't see how the Raven change is a buff to TvP timings. It is a 3 second increase in exchange for 25 more energy. That is a nerf. Terran is only going to have 1 interference matrix per Raven when attacking now.
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Northern Ireland27129 Posts
On November 21 2019 07:55 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 07:38 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 21 2019 05:06 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 21 2019 04:47 Ben... wrote:On November 21 2019 04:41 BonitiilloO wrote:
So. After couple of days with this patch waht is the consensus? Are match more even or something got broken? How are matchups working out now? The patch isn't live yet. That will happen next Tuesday. Homestory Cup will be held on it this weekend so we'll see then. I'm convinced it's going to be massively Terran favored. TvZ might be balanced but TvP is looking like it's going to be hilariously broken in favor of Terran. Chargelots were needed to hold allins from the Terran. Without them and with 11 second Interference Matrix and with a massive buff to ranged Liberator production...I don't see what Protoss is going to do other than cheese every game or lose to Terran 2 base allins. HSC will show for sure. HSC will IMO merely showcase what trying to play old styles in PvT will look like on the new patch, which IMO sees Protoss getting pounded. I think we need some time for Protoss to adjust before we can make judgements. As it stands Terrans can basically play like they do now when the patch hits, but that will be outright better vs Protoss players playing like they are now. I really do not see the current standard macro flow of Protoss powering hardcore with an early 3rd being nearly as hard to punish as it is now, and Protoss have played like that for a long time. It’ll always take longer for a race to completely adjust stylistically to a patch than their opponents who will be able to have the same basic game plans only ‘better’ So I think HSC will be interesting to observe for sure but too soon after the patch to really be conclusive about how PvT looks in the longer term My main concern is that with Terran's 2 base allins getting buffed, their raven timings being buffed and with charge being nerfed...how is Protoss supposed to even take a 3rd? You can;t build it in your main and float it, you can't open with a Nexi or even go gate expand without severe risk, unlike zerg who can go expand pool, pool expand or pool double expand with no issues of being allin'd as a result. Charge was the lynch pin and with an 11 second IM, Protoss aren't allowed to use other lynch pins. Annnd then there's the Adept and Observer nerfs...
I share those concerns, I’m just not sure what players can figure out given a bit of time.
My instinct is that P have been over-nerfed but on the other hand I do think Protoss were able to power off too few units and a quick 3 while being a bit too safe, which didn’t feel right either.
I don’t think the Observer nerf will be super impactful, it might be but it’s the single change that’s most annoyed me this upcoming patch because the reason behind it seems so bloody silly.
At the S class level I don’t think PvT was that bad before the EMP buff. With the EMP buff I felt it was in a good place as a matchup, at least at the very very highest level.
Now I feel they’re going to over-nerf Protoss, just as happened in PvZ for much of this year but maybe it won’t be that bad. Hard to tell when quite a few things are changing simultaneously.
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Northern Ireland27129 Posts
On November 21 2019 08:14 JJH777 wrote:
I don't see how the Raven change is a buff to TvP timings. It is a 3 second increase in exchange for 25 more energy. That is a nerf. Terran is only going to have 1 interference matrix per Raven when attacking now.
It’s a buff I think.
Raven timings are almost always specifically anti-collosus timings, you’re not trying to hit one when the Protoss has 3-4 of them, so in that scenario it’s more beneficial to have them disabled for longer than being able to disable units that don’t exist.
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On November 21 2019 08:20 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 08:14 JJH777 wrote:
I don't see how the Raven change is a buff to TvP timings. It is a 3 second increase in exchange for 25 more energy. That is a nerf. Terran is only going to have 1 interference matrix per Raven when attacking now. It’s a buff I think. Raven timings are almost always specifically anti-collosus timings, you’re not trying to hit one when the Protoss has 3-4 of them, so in that scenario it’s more beneficial to have them disabled for longer than being able to disable units that don’t exist.
With 50 energy interference matrix, if the fight is longer than 8 seconds, you can just disable again.
The only time a 75 energy interference matrix is a buff is when the fight is longer than 8 seconds AND the Raven has less than 50 energy after those 8 seconds.
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People always overrreact...let's wait.
I just want the infested terran back, it's part of SC 2, more or less nerfed/buffed.
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(Protoss: Please don't forget that you need a fusion core to get liberator range now. You can say it is easier to keep production going on 1 starport but the upgrade itself will be considerably more expensive. I doubt the fusion core will be used for BCs that much.) Edit, my bad, need to learn more about tha game!
The 1 less range will be felt, it will be harder cover for the liberators now, and disruptors will have an easier time hitting their targets.
The big question is the charge nerf of course, but the faster ground speed open possibilities to outplay terran. Speedlots darting around my bases from a warp prism will be very annoying to deal with! Please let it pass at least a couple of big tournaments befor you say it is imba.
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EPT
