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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On November 16 2019 14:53 91matt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 12:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 10:21 JJH777 wrote:On November 16 2019 08:24 batatm wrote:On November 16 2019 04:33 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 16 2019 03:35 batatm wrote:
balance aside, terran and protoss got a bunch of changes while zerg has a long list of nerfs and a +1 range lurker. Have you seen Zerg lately ? that's why i said BALANCE ASIDE, this is about the feeling of freshmess the patch brings to the game. terran and protoss meet this criteria with several changes that opens up several new possible comps/build orders, but for zerg it's hardly the case when all they got are nerfs and 2 hive upgrades. to put it in other words, the changes to protoss and terran are exciting to test and play around with, but there's not much to tinker with for zerg. Pretty much every Zerg unit already had a clear place in the game and was used frequently. The only Zerg unit you could really argue was under utilized was the lurker and that got buffed. Change purely for the sake of change is pointless and bad for the game. Zerg already had by far the most variety in terms of compositions and gameplay styles. Well it’s not purely for the sake of change, it’s for a reason. Lurkers are good units, getting a bit of a buff while other things are nerfed. They’re not used much in non ZvZ not because they’re bad units but because Zerg have way better options. BL/Infestor is shit, hell Infestors as potent and catch-all as they are currently is shit, basically everyone hates it. If Zerg plays as strong but differently basically the entire community is down with that. Lurkers are kind of a bad unit tho, they are niche af
They’re good units, the only way to make them not niche is to buff them or nerf other better options.
If anything they’re too strong in ways, don’t see why they burrow quite so fast with that upgrade tbh. If this patch goes through they’re going to have the same range as a siege tank, transition into attack mode way faster than siege tanks and require something that grants vision to even hit outside of using spells. I like the dynamics of siege/unsiege and pouncing on tanks with a window, a window one doesn’t really have so much with lurkers.
I can’t foresee them ever being particularly good vT though given Terran have scans and high DPS really splittable units, which is fine by me. Not every unit has to be good in all matchups or scenarios
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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On November 16 2019 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Can someone explain the reason behind the observer speed changes? Is this considered a nerf or is it because too many people lose their observers due to poor control during an a-move?
They initially said it was too frustrating that observers frequently just barely escape attempts to kill them, I’m assuming they mean Terrans scanning and trying to snipe them.
Which I think is bloody ridiculous but oh well.
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Bisutopia19307 Posts
On November 16 2019 22:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 14:53 91matt wrote:On November 16 2019 12:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 10:21 JJH777 wrote:On November 16 2019 08:24 batatm wrote:On November 16 2019 04:33 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 16 2019 03:35 batatm wrote:
balance aside, terran and protoss got a bunch of changes while zerg has a long list of nerfs and a +1 range lurker. Have you seen Zerg lately ? that's why i said BALANCE ASIDE, this is about the feeling of freshmess the patch brings to the game. terran and protoss meet this criteria with several changes that opens up several new possible comps/build orders, but for zerg it's hardly the case when all they got are nerfs and 2 hive upgrades. to put it in other words, the changes to protoss and terran are exciting to test and play around with, but there's not much to tinker with for zerg. Pretty much every Zerg unit already had a clear place in the game and was used frequently. The only Zerg unit you could really argue was under utilized was the lurker and that got buffed. Change purely for the sake of change is pointless and bad for the game. Zerg already had by far the most variety in terms of compositions and gameplay styles. Well it’s not purely for the sake of change, it’s for a reason. Lurkers are good units, getting a bit of a buff while other things are nerfed. They’re not used much in non ZvZ not because they’re bad units but because Zerg have way better options. BL/Infestor is shit, hell Infestors as potent and catch-all as they are currently is shit, basically everyone hates it. If Zerg plays as strong but differently basically the entire community is down with that. Lurkers are kind of a bad unit tho, they are niche af They’re good units, the only way to make them not niche is to buff them or nerf other better options. If anything they’re too strong in ways, don’t see why they burrow quite so fast with that upgrade tbh. If this patch goes through they’re going to have the same range as a siege tank, transition into attack mode way faster than siege tanks and require something that grants vision to even hit outside of using spells. I like the dynamics of siege/unsiege and pouncing on tanks with a window, a window one doesn’t really have so much with lurkers. I can’t foresee them ever being particularly good vT though given Terran have scans and high DPS really splittable units, which is fine by me. Not every unit has to be good in all matchups or scenarios
I wish there was a new way for Tanks to defend themselves better against Zerg. They get swallowed up by zerglings and banelings so easily sometimes. As you said with lurkers, they will be another counter to tanks because tanks get occupied by zerglings leading the charge. A way to create a barricade or a bump ability to shove melee units away is one way to fix this. Maybe the non-damaging bump occurs when switching tank modes. But instead of adding anything, I'd love to see map designers take a stab at helping slow moving mech or robo armies.
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On November 16 2019 16:36 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 08:16 Miralem Ibrahim wrote:
Am I the only one who is disappointed by those changes? Like...
terran's change for most of them look like more like "quality of life" changes than actual real changes that change the gameplay of the race? We will see but it really look like it
Majority of Zerg changes are just straight up nerfs with the exception of infested terran (witch is big I admit it) but for the rest ....
Protoss changes really look like change but why did they keep the Observer change?
I don't know but this patch doesn't make me excited for next year personally. Some of these things for Terran are more important then they look. I’m really interested to see how the faster but weeker lib range pans out. Having an upgrade moved off the tech lab for a reactored unit is a really big deal for Terran. I’m also interested to see how impactful the blue flame change is, now that it’s cheaper it will make mech and specifically battle mech better since you can now afford a weapon upgrade 2 factories and battle mech units where before you had to cut and the cut that was made was almost always blue flame since it scales really poorly compared to other options. The zealot change can also be considered a change for Terran because of impactful it is for mech and also mech heavy bio. The thor effectively got a dps increase since it will be significantly less deeply and spend a lot less time trying to determine what to shoot at. Also depending on how late game shakes out tvz might evolve to the point that Terran can use reactionary deffensive gameplans because lategame is winnable. Overall it’s an interesting set of changes that shakes things up for every race while not wrocking the boat to hard.
I don't know about that. Is the terran game play really change because blue is a little more expensive? Or having a little bit easier transition into libe range ? That help a little bit but considering it's a end of year patch I was expecting more than that personally. For example instead of reduce the cost of blue flame maybe bring back the old blue flame of WOL like they did with the EMP of ghosts I don't know or maybe replace the auto turret of the raven or bring back the old seeker missile of HOTS. I don't say those change would be good or bad or completely for the game but at least that create new styles new builds new ways to play.
Something very like "Wow I m exiting to see how terrans will play now" or "how terran will use this new ability" for example when they changed the hydralisk that was incredibly strong but now we can see the hydra bane comp. Or when they make siege tank stronger and now we can use them protoss and even see some few mech plays against toss. That are just some example.
But for this patch I m not like "Wow I m so excited" like I said earlier I m more "Hum let's see" You know what I mean?
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On November 16 2019 22:26 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 22:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 14:53 91matt wrote:On November 16 2019 12:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 16 2019 10:21 JJH777 wrote:On November 16 2019 08:24 batatm wrote:On November 16 2019 04:33 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 16 2019 03:35 batatm wrote:
balance aside, terran and protoss got a bunch of changes while zerg has a long list of nerfs and a +1 range lurker. Have you seen Zerg lately ? that's why i said BALANCE ASIDE, this is about the feeling of freshmess the patch brings to the game. terran and protoss meet this criteria with several changes that opens up several new possible comps/build orders, but for zerg it's hardly the case when all they got are nerfs and 2 hive upgrades. to put it in other words, the changes to protoss and terran are exciting to test and play around with, but there's not much to tinker with for zerg. Pretty much every Zerg unit already had a clear place in the game and was used frequently. The only Zerg unit you could really argue was under utilized was the lurker and that got buffed. Change purely for the sake of change is pointless and bad for the game. Zerg already had by far the most variety in terms of compositions and gameplay styles. Well it’s not purely for the sake of change, it’s for a reason. Lurkers are good units, getting a bit of a buff while other things are nerfed. They’re not used much in non ZvZ not because they’re bad units but because Zerg have way better options. BL/Infestor is shit, hell Infestors as potent and catch-all as they are currently is shit, basically everyone hates it. If Zerg plays as strong but differently basically the entire community is down with that. Lurkers are kind of a bad unit tho, they are niche af They’re good units, the only way to make them not niche is to buff them or nerf other better options. If anything they’re too strong in ways, don’t see why they burrow quite so fast with that upgrade tbh. If this patch goes through they’re going to have the same range as a siege tank, transition into attack mode way faster than siege tanks and require something that grants vision to even hit outside of using spells. I like the dynamics of siege/unsiege and pouncing on tanks with a window, a window one doesn’t really have so much with lurkers. I can’t foresee them ever being particularly good vT though given Terran have scans and high DPS really splittable units, which is fine by me. Not every unit has to be good in all matchups or scenarios I wish there was a new way for Tanks to defend themselves better against Zerg. They get swallowed up by zerglings and banelings so easily sometimes. As you said with lurkers, they will be another counter to tanks because tanks get occupied by zerglings leading the charge. A way to create a barricade or a bump ability to shove melee units away is one way to fix this. Maybe the non-damaging bump occurs when switching tank modes. But instead of adding anything, I'd love to see map designers take a stab at helping slow moving mech or robo armies.
Make liberators and blue flame helbats;-)
It could possibly even work going bio, although I have not seen it much.
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On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units?
Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)?
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On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)?
Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already.
Storm and banelings justayin',
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On November 17 2019 00:42 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)? Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already. Storm and banelings justayin',
You realise storm has friendly fire right?
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even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched...
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Hmm. Well I think this will improve things but I don’t think it was the most efficient and clean way of doing so.
7/10 patch job
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On November 17 2019 00:49 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 00:42 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)? Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already. Storm and banelings justayin', You realise storm has friendly fire right?
Lol fail, Colossus do not, however.
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On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched...
Yeah it’s to fast in the 2 base phase of the game. Undeniable scouting is brutal in a meta where one race must attack the other like we had before the last batch of changes that helped ballance tvp.
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On November 17 2019 00:42 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)? Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already. Storm and banelings justayin',
Banelings, too, of course. In fact, I'd make _all_ splash make indiscriminately friendly firing.
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On November 17 2019 02:23 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 00:42 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)? Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already. Storm and banelings justayin', Banelings, too, of course. In fact, I'd make _all_ splash make indiscriminately friendly firing.
That sounds like one of the worst ideas ever lol. Can you imagine your opponent killing your baneling in a pack of like 20, setting off a chain reaction that instantly explodes your entire army?
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On November 17 2019 03:40 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 02:23 Haukinger wrote:On November 17 2019 00:42 Slydie wrote:On November 17 2019 00:00 Haukinger wrote:On November 16 2019 18:54 Lucasmus wrote:
Then you could also argue, maybe hellions and hellbats don't care about hitting friendly units? Now that's nice. Maybe Hellions and Hellbats continue to ignore blinding cloud, but make them deal friendly fire. Same for widow mines, why should they be unable to hit other mines (or themselves, that is)? Please, not this again. My tanks and mines have killed plenty of my own units already. Storm and banelings justayin', Banelings, too, of course. In fact, I'd make _all_ splash make indiscriminately friendly firing. That sounds like one of the worst ideas ever lol. Can you imagine your opponent killing your baneling in a pack of like 20, setting off a chain reaction that instantly explodes your entire army?
That would be funny :D
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On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched...
If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue.
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On November 17 2019 06:31 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched... If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue.
but terran is the MICRO race! surely terrans can't be miscalculating their marine micro!!
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On November 17 2019 06:41 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 06:31 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched... If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue. but terran is the MICRO race! surely terrans can't be miscalculating their marine micro!!
What really makes me laugh is that SPECIAL was the one who messed up there. The dude plays mech and mech doesn't take a lot of micro if you shift click burrow/deploy/siege. Like, dude, when you admitted you were one of the guys whinging about Observers on the pylon show, I just rolled my eyes.
Sometimes pros can be super dense and SPECIAL blaming balance for that instead of getting better is unbecoming.
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On November 17 2019 06:31 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched... If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue.
artosis's reasoning behind why it shouldn't be nerfed was: "observers die to 8 range queens all the time"
what is yours?
it's not like toss is having troubles scouting especially after halluc energy buff.
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On November 17 2019 07:32 Hvvacha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2019 06:31 BabelFish1 wrote:On November 17 2019 01:10 Hvvacha wrote:
even top terrans said observer is too fast, heromarine said he saw in one of special's game at gsl he wasted 4-5 scans and failed to kill 1 observer lol, artosis made it look like some low leaguers requested it and it got patched... If you're dropping 5 scans on 1 Observer, you dun goofed up. That aint a balance issue. artosis's reasoning behind why it shouldn't be nerfed was: "observers die to 8 range queens all the time" what is yours? it's not like toss is having troubles scouting especially after halluc energy buff.
Observers need to be fast for speed banshees and the new crackivacs in the balance patch. They are also gas expensive, can only be produced 1 at a time and serve 3 very specific roles; scouting, detection and spotting for blinking up the high ground.
The queen part is also a valid concern, especially when 10 range Lurkers hit the field once the patch goes through. The Oracle's revelation, while useful, isn't consistent enough to make up for the Observer nerf because it's energy based and has down time.
It aint about the scouting, it's about the detection.
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EPT
