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tbh I still don't think putting Serral at 18th was wrong at the time (putting him below Rain seemed fair to me) but he's probably like somewhere between 10-15th place now that he's won 2 more tournaments. He's not as dominant as last year but he has been top 3 all year (now number 1) unlike last year where he was probably only like in the top 10 for the first few months
In regards to the skill of the Korean scene, I think INno, soO, Zest and herO lost the most skill for sure. Rain and Life no longer playing is pretty huge too. That said, some players like Maru, Stats, Rogue, TY and Dark improved a lot. I don't think that is enough to offset the decline in skill of the Korean scene but I guess my point is that it's not like all the strong Korean players got worse. The very top Korean players now are not much worse than top Korean players in the past.
I think the problem is that there are fewer top Korean players now and the list of top Koreans has little turnover. Ever since Rogue's slump, I would say Serral, Maru, Stats, Classic and Dark have consistently been among the top 5 players (and they have won most of the tournaments among themselves). In HotS, to my knowledge, the top 16 players change a lot every year (only INnovation made it to all 3 Blizzcons in the Korean scene). In LotV, Stats and Dark have already qualified for like 4 Blizzcons (Stats qualified for 3 but he will almost certainly qualify this year since Classic unfortunately has to give up his spot) TY qualified for 3 (still has ok chance of qualifying for 4th one). And keep in mind that it's harder to make Blizzcon now than in the past (because there are only 8 spots).
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On August 20 2019 06:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 05:41 TheAnarchy wrote:On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins. Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative. It's true, StarCraft 2 has just been going downhill since Fruitdealer. Now some of you may think I'm joking, but I can prove that it's true using objective facts and logic. + Show Spoiler +If you made a tournament today for modern players using the map pool of Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, etc. no Zerg player could win it. Very likely no Zerg player could even win a single series. But Fruitdealer won one. And other Zerg players managed to take series. This objectively demonstrates that Zerg players in 2010 were capable of performing feats the much weaker Zerg players of today couldn't even hope to emulate.
Now you may be saying "that logic may be completely irrefutable, but it only proves that modern Zergs suck compared to their 2010 counterparts!" And that's correct, but consider this: modern Terrans and Protosses are so bad that they regularly lose to modern Zergs! This very tournament, which had many modern Terrans and Protosses in it, was capped by a mirror match-up between two modern Zergs! So we must rationally conclude that modern Terrans and Protosses suck too.
Quod erat demonstrandum!
Hard to argue with this watertight proof, well done 
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On August 20 2019 07:31 Gomas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote:
The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid. Chess is quite a simple game
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading after that part. Gotta protect these neurons while they're still kicking.
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Serral is the best SC2 player of all time imo. That's coming from someone who generally supports korean protoss and thinks Zerg is obviously op at the moment. Is he the most accomplished? No, at least it's debatable even if he wins another 5 premier tournaments. But I judge the level of play not number of trophies. On that account Serral has one of the best mechanics, versatility, tenacity, reactionary intelligence and has the best balanced strength across 3 matchups I've ever seen. The only area I think he's lacking a bit is mind-game. But hey he has no reason to go that route if he has the aforementioned strengths.
Number of trophies is very misleading. If there's a tournament when everybody sucks, somebody is going to win regardless. Also somebody who wins 10 out of 100 tournaments is not twice as impressive as somebody who wins 5 out of 50 tournaments, except in longevity. But of course there should be a minimal threshold (e.g., winning at least 3 premier tournaments) when it comes to such comparisons, otherwise we should all be praising one and dones.
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On August 20 2019 07:31 Gomas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote:
The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid. The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better. I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't.
Your approach make sports meaningless.
Chess players aren't skilled at all. Magnus Carlsen is a noob, because if chess was big business like football, he would be just one of many geniuses. If you take into account the speculative skill of all living people on the planet if they had the "dedication, desire and discipline" for 8 years, all sports are just losers playing against losers.
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hold up.. Koreans went 2-6 against foreigners in this tournament?
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This tournament was amazing to watch. So many good games.
Really hope the GSL/foreign rivalry continues because it's a really entertaining storyline that's been building for 15-20 years now.
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Poland3751 Posts
Good luck writing next power ranking
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On August 20 2019 02:32 Fej wrote:and you came here just to write this, congratz bud.... anyway soO vs TIME game 2 was one the best games I've ever watched, highly recommended
Yeah that guy clearly missed some great SC2, Time v soO was fantastic. I though Special vs Classic was also really good, as well as Neeb vs Elazer.
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On August 20 2019 13:38 SlammerIV wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 02:32 Fej wrote:On August 20 2019 01:02 Mun_Su wrote:
Tournament was not really exciting and you came here just to write this, congratz bud.... anyway soO vs TIME game 2 was one the best games I've ever watched, highly recommended Yeah that guy clearly missed some great SC2, Time v soO was fantastic. I though Special vs Classic was also really good, as well as Neeb vs Elazer.
There were many great matches, but Neeb vs Elazer wasn't one of them. It was the most full-foreigner match ever in a long time, with two players committing the most amazing throws back and forward. Lambo's commentary/analysis of it in his recent stream really highlighted this. He felt sorry for the Koreans who had to experience seeing their own players get knocked out, only to see two foreigners doing foreigners things in a painful, awkward series.
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awesome tournament  Seriously historical stuff. Very glad that a Polish player played such a big part in it, too (and with such an unexpected run, which makes it even better). Special Congratulations to the winner, he's truly a real monster of a player. Well done.
I really hope this is going to happen next year, too.
Cheers.
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Nice infestor usage for Elazer
User was warned for this post.
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On August 20 2019 09:40 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 07:31 Gomas wrote:On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote:
The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid. The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better. I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't. Your approach make sports meaningless. Chess players aren't skilled at all. Magnus Carlsen is a noob, because if chess was big business like football, he would be just one of many geniuses. If you take into account the speculative skill of all living people on the planet if they had the "dedication, desire and discipline" for 8 years, all sports are just losers playing against losers.
I read your post a couple of times but I don't understand what you mean, could you rephrase please?
My approach makes sports meaningless? I was saying football and chess players are VERY skilled, even though the two have rather simple rules. You could play both in a park, with a stranger, after 30 seconds of preparation.Thats not meaningless.
I'm just saying that the competitiveness (possession of a strong desire to be more successful than others.) of today's Starcraft is much lower than that of 2010-2011. Back then we had prohouses; maybe thousands of people dedicating their lives to getting better. I was one of them. But today it seems like we have maybe 10-20 people with this drive, half of which became bored, frustrated, content over the last couple of months. There are people in the top30 of current global rankings MMR who are non-fulltime, casters, or whatever. The deceasing number of tournaments, fame, prizes adds to this. Casting, streaming, became equally rewarding in terms of fame. I mean, look at the IdrA fanclub for example, theres like a thousand pages of posts over a span of a year or two, just on one players fanclub. Players like Huk, Naniwa, Marineking, all have 500-1000 pages on their fanclubs, I think Serral has like 30. The drive, fame, was off the charts at that time. Nowhere near where it is now.
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On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote:
I'm just saying that the competitiveness (possession of a strong desire to be more successful than others.) of today's Starcraft is much lower than that of 2010-2011.
I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can argue that one for Korea ... but in EU, NA i would argue there is much more competitiveness then in earlier years. Just because now there is a goal and it is (much more) worth it. In earlier years there never was a big enough chance for most of the foreigners to be good enough to make it into the prize money ... nowadays with region lock that isn't the case anymore. Same with teams, teamhouses etc. - you now have a lot more of them in EU and NA then 2010-2011.
On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote:The deceasing number of tournaments, fame, prizes adds to this. Casting, streaming, became equally rewarding in terms of fame.
Is it really a deceasing number? I think there is still a huge lot of tournaments ... maybe even too much (although i will not complain about it) regarding the viewership has been sinking over the years.
And yeah, casters and streamers make more money nowadays ... but that's because E-Sport and Streaming has evolved a lot. I don't think pricemoney is a lot less in 2019 then it was in 2010-2011. Maybe they changed the distribution a bit in some tournaments (Top 32 instead of only Top 16 or Top 8), but overall it rather has been increased then decreased. As you can see very clearly if you look at the price money rankings ... right now Maru is #1 and Serral #2. Both of them had their biggest successes in the last two years,
On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote:Players like Huk, Naniwa, Marineking, all have 500-1000 pages on their fanclubs, I think Serral has like 30. The drive, fame, was off the charts at that time. Nowhere near where it is now.
Yeah, sure, e-Sport has evolved and SC2 no longer isn't the leading horse like it was in the early years. Now there are a lot of bigger dogs like LoL, Dota etc.
But in the end that doesn't says a lot about the quality of the (starcraft) games, as long as there are more then enough people who can make a (very) good living out of it if they are the best und continue to get better.
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On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
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On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene, it's not like you were going to recognize Serral's greatness in any of case. What about Maru, then, his next victories won't have any impact?
I see now what "double standards" really are
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On August 20 2019 20:39 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene
Because...? Both scenes didn't have new blood in ages and has mostly players between 25-30 years.
Neither scene has teamhouses or a serious teamleague anymore.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 20 2019 20:39 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene, it's not like you were going to recognize Serral's greatness in any of case. What about Maru, then, his next victories won't have any impact? I see now what "double standards" really are
Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague 
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On August 20 2019 08:05 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 06:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On August 20 2019 05:41 TheAnarchy wrote:On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins. Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative. It's true, StarCraft 2 has just been going downhill since Fruitdealer. Now some of you may think I'm joking, but I can prove that it's true using objective facts and logic. + Show Spoiler +If you made a tournament today for modern players using the map pool of Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, etc. no Zerg player could win it. Very likely no Zerg player could even win a single series. But Fruitdealer won one. And other Zerg players managed to take series. This objectively demonstrates that Zerg players in 2010 were capable of performing feats the much weaker Zerg players of today couldn't even hope to emulate.
Now you may be saying "that logic may be completely irrefutable, but it only proves that modern Zergs suck compared to their 2010 counterparts!" And that's correct, but consider this: modern Terrans and Protosses are so bad that they regularly lose to modern Zergs! This very tournament, which had many modern Terrans and Protosses in it, was capped by a mirror match-up between two modern Zergs! So we must rationally conclude that modern Terrans and Protosses suck too.
Quod erat demonstrandum! Hard to argue with this watertight proof, well done
Thank you good sir and/or madam, I can tell that you are a person of clear mind and impeccable reasoning skills.
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EPT
