Serral defeated Elazer 4-2 in the grand finals of GSL vs. The World 2019, winning his second consecutive title at the annual competition. Serral's victory capped off what was possibly the most successful tournament for non-Korean players in pro-StarCraft II history—in a tournament that began with eight Korean and eight non-Korean pros, three out of four semi-finalists ended up being 'foreigners.'
Serral's championship run saw him allay doubts about his form after he finished top four at ASUS ROG Summer and runner-up at WCS Summer—'poor' results for a player who won 8 out of his 17 major tournaments since 2018. GSL vs. The World played out as a point-by-point addressing of Serral's supposed weaknesses. A tough series against TIME at ASUS ROG was made up for by a comprehensive 3-1 victory over TY in the Ro16. In the following rounds, victories over top Korean Protoss players in Trap and Classic covered for his loss to Stats at ASUS ROG. Finally, his finals opponent Elazer served as stand-in for Reynor, whose ZvZ ability cost Serral the WCS Summer title.
It wasn't Serral's fault that he couldn't avenge his losses to Reynor and Stats directly, as they were the ones unable to earn the rematch. Reynor was swept by SpeCial in the Ro16—an unexpected result given Reynor's undefeated record against the Mexican Terran in WCS Circuit competition. Slightly less surprising was Stats' quarterfinal loss to Neeb, whose PvP prowess had been well-established (despite some recent woes).
Elazer's run to the finals was redemptive as well, but on a much longer timeline. After breaking out in 2017 by winning WCS Valencia and placing top eight at the Global Finals, Elazer suffered a 2018 slump that saw him miss out on BlizzCon entirely. At GSL vs. The World, things finally started go Elazer's way again. After beginning the tournament with an immense, 3-2 upset against GSL champion Dark, Elazer continued his roll with victories over TIME and Neeb in the proceeding rounds.
Despite defeating Dark earlier in the tournament, Elazer's EU ZvZ did not avail him against Serral in the finals. The first three games were a Nydus bonanza, resulting in a 2-1 lead for Serral. Game four then delivered the highlight game of the finals, with both players gearing up for a late-game macro-fest on Acropolis. Though Elazer impressed by keeping upwith Serral's constantly movements and multi-tasking for over twenty minutes, he was eventually worn down by Serral's more efficient use of the Hydra-Lurker-Viper composition. Elazer recovered a point after deflecting an early speedling build from Serral in game five, but Serral finished the series out in another macro-game in game six.
Measuring the gap
Two weeks ago, ASUS ROG Summer left the Korean-Foreigner gap looking as wide as ever with six out of eight quarterfinal spots taken up by Koreans. GSL vs. The World delivered a diametrically opposite result, with three foreigners reaching the semifinals despite Korea fielding a considerably stronger side (Dark, Maru, and Classic had been absent from ASUS ROG). In another strange twist, GSL vs. World runner-up Elazer didn't participate at ASUS ROG Summer as he had failed to even qualify.
Taking those two contrasting tournaments into consideration, it might be best to refrain from making any grand statements about the state of Koreans vs Foreigners. All we seem to have learned is that there's a considerable amount of variance from tournament to tournament and from match to match—but that's something we should have known already from 9 years of competitive StarCraft 2. However, there is one thing we can expect to stay constant: Serral in the championship picture.
Team match fiesta
With foreigners outperforming expectations in the main tournament, it wasn't surprising when they impressed in the ~$8,000 team showmatch as well. In a format that forced Korea vs foreigner in every single match, the foreigners acquitted themselves nicely by going 3-5. SpeCial took out Classic (after losing 2-3 to him in the main tournament), Serral defeated soO, while HeRoMaRinE closed out the series by defeating Trap (another revenge match from the main tournament).
I was kinda rooting for Elazer, because it would've been an awesome run for him, but as a Finn, I want to see Serral win everything. I'm starting to feel like sc2 will not have tournaments like this in a few years, so as a fan since 2011, it's been an honor to watch (almost) every tournament that has been organized since then. The players were so wholesome too during the time between games.
On August 19 2019 14:29 UtherTruthBringer wrote: Could not design a more boring human being
Being alone in your room in front of your screen is not something that should allow you to think that you're allowed to say such things. It's a disgusting statement.
Serral is great but the balance is broken. I don't think terran or protoss have any chance to win zerg in the late game in theory. So PLZ, FIX YOUR SHIT GAME ALRIGHT? This is not the game what everybody wants.
Elazer played pretty well against Serral. I kind of wish he took more risks against Serral but he held his own really well in the late game, which I never would have expected.
Wow what happened in these comments, we have BW disagreement and tons of balance tears.
Where are the cheer, it was a great even and lots of really good games. GG to Serral he really earned it, he had the hardest path of all the semifinalists but did it anyway.
Kinda weid the team match segment is written as if the foreigners won, they lost. If you take away the score and read the text you would think they won
By now Serral must have allayed all questions about his skill to even the most ardent critics... But there is one power that he has never been able to outrank.
Congratulations again to the best player in the world.
Also, I find the balance whine so intolerable. Guy has won 8 premiers in 18 months and many other semis/seconds. Anyone suggesting this is balance related is crazy.
Taking those two contrasting tournaments into consideration, it might be best to refrain from making any grand statements about the state of Koreans vs Foreigners.
I appreciate the effort
It was a weird tournament. I don't think I ever did worse liquibet-wise but I still climbed a few places so others did even worse.
On August 19 2019 13:46 imCHIEN wrote: Serral bonjwa. This guy is actually SC2's Flash
Both continued to succeed after Blizzard killed the respective Korean scene, so that part is true.
PS: Flash was never bonjwa.
Of course he was.
Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, Saviour and Flash are the 5 bonjwas of BW.
stop having this argument in this thread right now, or you're both banned
You and I both know I'm right so why threaten me with a ban over blatant revisionism committed by the other party?
There is no argument to be had. Despite what someone may have written in Liquipedia or on the forums, Flash was never titled "bonjwa," firstly because of his rivalries, secondly because when he rose over them he became "God," making bonjwa a dated term that people with little to no understanding thereof try to resurrect every so often. One could argue that "bonjwa" was no longer a viable term after Bisu lost to Mind, or that the term fell out of favor because TBLS made it more difficult to draft such a monochromatic storyline, or because the audience had simply moved away from it in reaction to the aforementioned reasons, or any combination thereof - but to claim that Flash or Serral are "bonjwa" is an anachronistic error, point blank. Tell me I'm wrong.
Well played, especially by Elazer, who has hugely outperformed. Of course by Serral as well, but ... it's Serral, so nobody should be really surprised about that part.
Although Serral struggles quite a bit this year ... especially Reynor seems to have his number in WCS ... he still is a great player. And he is much more consistent then others, f.e. Maru, who still has to prove that he can be great (and constant) in Weekend Tournaments, who just are another format then GSL.
And yeah, it is funny if you look in some other topics ... especially the last one about community update ... that the game should only be balanced around GSL ... and toss is imba because korean zerg would be weak and wcs region doesn't count ... nice to see reality messing up this biased comments :D And nobody can argue this time the losses only came by Serral. 6 out of 8 foreigners managed to win a series (or a Bo1 in Team Challange) against a korean player.
Just hoping Blizzard (/Activision) will continue this sort of tournaments next year.
I'm not the most avid SC2 spectator but this tournament was top notch. The production and the players delivered, nice story lines to argue about balance or Koreans vs foreigners, the LR thread was nice.
On August 19 2019 18:46 JoFar wrote: Well played, especially by Elazer, who has hugely outperformed. Of course by Serral as well, but ... it's Serral, so nobody should be really surprised about that part.
A rather impressive run for Serral before the finals. Congrats to the Ryökäle.
Hopefully if they do this tournament next year they could make all the ro16 match-ups be korean vs foreigner, and then the team match to be team korea vs team world. Maybe an improvement when it comes to the voting stage also, but probably just gets too complicated tbh.
Serral is still (after two years) the greatest player we have. I think we've never had someone play at his level for such a long time, most players dominate for a couple of months/weeks before "slumping". Serrals "worst" performances in the past two years still got him to third/fourth place in stacked tournaments.
Edit: Disappointed in Maru though, yet again he failed to live up to his reputation. Voting Inno over him in the TLGOAT survey was definitely the right choice.
Serral did this funny thing were he controlled multiple armies on multiple fronts, while macroing, and then just forgot to finish off a hatchery that is at <100 hp, twice, but then still won the game. lol
So impressive, Serral went through TY, Trap and Classic just like that and then winning vs Elazer. And while it he doesnt show huge emotions it is so important to keep emotions in check on this level and we've had a lot of stonefaced koreas as well through the years.
Great tournament and im happy to see so close competition between all the players. Its just sad to see the only salt in here again, i hope all the people who hate Blizzard, balance and the best player not being a korean could just leave so we can have more fun.
On August 19 2019 16:02 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow what happened in these comments, we have BW disagreement and tons of balance tears.
Where are the cheer, it was a great even and lots of really good games. GG to Serral he really earned it, he had the hardest path of all the semifinalists but did it anyway.
Kinda weid the team match segment is written as if the foreigners won, they lost. If you take away the score and read the text you would think they won
Rage against infestors is mostly due to TIME losing to Elazer I think, the chinese community went mad.
Foreigners "lost" the team match but they significantly improved over the 1-7 of the last two years; knowing the pairings in advance, 3-5 was definitely the most likely result even if Reynor disappointed and Heromarine upset Trap(Elazer-Dark and Special-Classic were coinflips and there was a little chanche of Showtime beating Stats and TIME beating Maru, while Serral beating this version of soO and TY defeating Neeb basically were a lock).
On August 19 2019 20:42 La1 wrote: you should never doubt serral
even the koreans are now saying it's an honor to play the best sc2 player. It seems he is now globally recognized as the best..
maybe.. one day.. he might actually be number 1 on the TL power rank!
Having a monthly Power Ranking this year, I am confident Serral will be #1 in the next considering Dark, Classic and Stats all had a relatively weak tournament compared to Serral's dominant run and considering he was placed #2 in August's PR.
On August 19 2019 20:42 La1 wrote: you should never doubt serral
even the koreans are now saying it's an honor to play the best sc2 player. It seems he is now globally recognized as the best..
maybe.. one day.. he might actually be number 1 on the TL power rank!
This is actually long overdue, they always gave Maru benefit of the doubt over Serral in 2018 and Dark after GSL. Now they finally have to give it to Serral over the rest, everything else would be ridiculous.
Great tournament overall, but... I've lost count of how many finals I didn't care to watch for the past year. For me as a terran fan, it happens so I enjoy only ro32-ro16. Reynor - Serral, Elazer - Serral... what a joke.
The community always was that toxic like now days?
Almost all the comments are negative/balance whine, while the tournament was ton of fun and we’ve seen great games, no idea why people have to complaine always, play tetris then and gtfo
On August 19 2019 21:16 661 wrote: The community always was that toxic like now days?
Almost all the comments are negative/balance whine, while the tournament was ton of fun and we’ve seen great games, no idea why people have to complaine always, play tetris then and gtfo
Yeah, the atmosphere here has definitely changed and not for a good direction. Every thread seems to turn about arguing/whining about balance or even still some trolling about "Serral won only because of xxxxxxxxx" korean bias. If even 20% of this negative energy would be turned into making constructive criticism about the problems AND introducing solutions to them, this would be a very good place to compile those suggestions even for Blizzard and see what they think. But well, its always easier to shout "Nerf Infestorzz" or "Toss Imba !!".
When Stats plays his best game, he seems to be almost untouchable and has a good chance to win every tournament.
When Maru/Innovation plays his best game, he seems to be almost untouchable and has a good chance to win every tournament.
When Serral plays his best game, he seems to be almost untouchable and has a great chance to win every tournament.
There. Three players. Each best of their race. And in their best day, they can beat everybody and when they collide at their best, there is bound to be great games where anybody can win. Unfortunately Maru seems to have forgotten how to win outside GSL, but hopefully he will also correct that.
Yeah, there are few balance issues which should be addressed, but its nowhere as grave as 90% people here claim it to be. Instead of constant whining, make constructive feedback and try to get better in your game. Accusing balance for your inability to win games or that somebody lost in a single tournament series just doesnt cut it.
Absolutely fantastic Tournament! Though I could only watch the vods for most of the event, it was fun, excitement and amazement of the unexpected performance of the foreigners.
Maybe it's really time for the end of regionlock...
Or maybe it's just time for such an all global tournament format more often?
And: PLZ don't find any more reasons for Serral not being #1 in Powerrank
Why is everyone complaining about power rank when Serral had done absolutely nothing before this event to justify being #1?
Anyway, most expected result of the year was expected I guess. Dunno what happened to Stats and Maru but once they were out the the champ was basically determined
On August 19 2019 23:44 Fango wrote: Why is everyone complaining about power rank when Serral had done absolutely nothing before this event to justify being #1?
Anyway, most expected result of the year was expected I guess. Dunno what happened to Stats and Maru but once they were out the the champ was basically determined
? ? ?
He has done nothing to justify being #1 OR him winning is the most expected result of the year, choose one.
On August 19 2019 23:44 Fango wrote: Why is everyone complaining about power rank when Serral had done absolutely nothing before this event to justify being #1?
Anyway, most expected result of the year was expected I guess. Dunno what happened to Stats and Maru but once they were out the the champ was basically determined
"Absolutely nothing" like winning BlizzCon last year? Serral has been super consistent this year as well, his worst result was a ro8, he dominated WCS Spring and won HSC XXIX while narrowly losing three times in the finals. Maybe it's not too few considering he was ranked #2 in August's Power Ranking, one would imagine he's out of the ten judging by your words.
On August 20 2019 00:15 Argonauta wrote: We really really need to see Serral at GSL, come on it will be fun!
We just have to relocate Pornainen to Korea, possibly near Seoul, for roughly three months; or maybe, Serral has to feel the need to play in a preparation tournament. I would send him if I could, but we can just hope.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
On August 19 2019 18:46 JoFar wrote: Maru, who still has to prove that he can be great (and constant) in Weekend Tournaments, who just are another format then GSL.
People still blame Maru's loses on "It's a weekend tournament, it doesn't count!" He lost in GSL RO32 and barely made it into the RO16 this time lmao. He's not that good if he doesn't get his overpowered ability to rig the GSL bracket.
How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote: How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
No starleague victory to start it, just one WC title. Rogue has 2 WC titles, Mvp, Maru and Innovation have more starleague titles. To just name few things.
Edit> Also Serral's here for just a year. Maru is consistently the top Terran for years(you do realize he won his first starleague in HotS), same applies for Innovation. Stats has been a top Protoss for ages too, Classic was there too etc. Serral won 3 Tournaments with any Korean representation(GSL vs TW twice, Blizzcon), he didn't win IEM(twice), ROG. That's not a domination of GOAT, he didn't win anything great in a row, did he? Unless he starts playing in Korea or Koreans gave up totally so WCS is more meaningful, well,...
On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote: How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
No starleague victory to start it, just one WC title. Rogue has 2 WC titles, Mvp, Maru and Innovation have more starleague titles. To just name few things.
Edit> Also Serral's here for just a year. Maru is consistently the top Terran for years(you do realize he won his first starleague in HotS), same applies for Innovation. Stats has been a top Protoss for ages too, Classic was there too etc. Serral won 3 Tournaments with any Korean representation(GSL vs TW twice, Blizzcon), he didn't win IEM(twice), ROG. That's not a domination of GOAT, he didn't win anything great in a row, did he? Unless he starts playing in Korea or Koreans gave up totally so WCS is more meaningful, well,...
So HSC doesnt count ? Twice ? Or that he kinda only lost to eventual winners, where he didnt win and usually by 1 map ? He has been consistent favourite to win every tournament he enters for almost two years now. And doesnt that work other way around too ? He has been dominant in almost every tournament, although there have been these long time monsters like Maru, Stats, Classic, Innovation, Rogue etc. involved.
Even no Korean wants to face him anymore, well maybe except Dark, but thats more about ego than anything else. Even Koreans say he is the best player in the world. Seriously, who wants to play a solid macro game head to head against Serral ? Few European zergs can do that, after playing against him like 3 years and know his playstyle inside out. Even then they dont stand a chance when he plays his a-game. In this tournament I think Serrals gameplay was like B+ maybe A- to his standards and still he was unstoppable. Honestly, who has shown such dominance ever in Starcraft 2 ?
On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote: How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
It takes some incredible delusion to think serral is a goat contender at this moment, not that i am surprised but maybe people should actually look at career results of different players before making these asinine claims :/
And even if we only care about this "dominance", there are quite obvious objections. I'll put it into numbers for you, serral won 3/9 premier tournaments where koreans were allowed to play at since the beginning of 2018. He actually played before that but people say that doesn't count so whatever. That's impressive, but one would think he won them all if one listened to some people on TL.
edit: i missed the hsc because it isn't on liquipedia's timeline, my bad. Though it could be argued that hsc shouldn't ever be considered, but whatever.
On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote: How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
It takes some incredible delusion to think serral is a goat contender at this moment, not that i am surprised but maybe people should actually look at career results of different players before making these asinine claims :/
And even if we only care about this "dominance", there are quite obvious objections. I'll put it into numbers for you, serral won 3/9 premier tournaments where koreans were allowed to play at since the beginning of 2018. He actually played before that but people say that doesn't count so whatever. That's impressive, but one would think he won them all if one listened to some people on TL.
You'd better say Serral won 4/7 Premier tournaments with koreans(not including HSC XIX, which is a Major unlike HSC XVIII) in the last twelve months, or 3/3 in three months when he was at his apex; no ignorant neophite would think Serral won all the tournaments he played since the beginning of 2018 to August 2019, if could properly read what others write.
Serral played before, but that would be like obstinately insisting on focusing on Maru's career in 2010-2012; he was a player of one entirely different caliber, what's the point?
Yes, Serral is not a GOAT contender yet but he's way better than the #18 you guys condemned him tho very recently; saying that he could be GOAT is inappropriate just as much as the dozen of comments pointing towards the opposite direction, and I have seen many. Delusion is everywhere, it seems
Not a Goat contender but Serral’s consistency over the last two years is ridiculous. Most of the great players in history go through wild periods of inconsistency with huge downswings but it’s a surprise and people are questioning Serral’s form when he loses in the semis of a strong tournament. Comfortably the best player.
On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote: How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
No starleague victory to start it, just one WC title. Rogue has 2 WC titles, Mvp, Maru and Innovation have more starleague titles. To just name few things.
Edit> Also Serral's here for just a year. Maru is consistently the top Terran for years(you do realize he won his first starleague in HotS), same applies for Innovation. Stats has been a top Protoss for ages too, Classic was there too etc. Serral won 3 Tournaments with any Korean representation(GSL vs TW twice, Blizzcon), he didn't win IEM(twice), ROG. That's not a domination of GOAT, he didn't win anything great in a row, did he? Unless he starts playing in Korea or Koreans gave up totally so WCS is more meaningful, well,...
Rogue won 2... And still chokes everytime someone whispers Serral in his ear. Also you say Maru has been Top terran for years. Serral has been top zerg for 2 years now. And you say he didnt win anything great in a row... What is Gsl vs the World then?? For the past 2 years, the premiers he didnt win, he lost by one map only (except for one IEM). Can u say the same for Maru or Rogue.
Just compare the premier events they didnt win... You can see that Serral stompa everyone in the past 2 years. And now add the ones they won. He stomps evwn more.
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
We always come back to the same, if you value WCS circuit champsionships as the same level as the rest since they are region locked or not....
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
We always come back to the same, if you value WCS circuit champsionships as the same level as the rest since they are region locked or not....
That's true, but Neemi didn't say anything concerning the value of said tournaments.
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
Why would all players suck? Do you actually watch games instead of spouting nonsense?
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
I watch SC2 pro scene since 2010. The skill ceiling has never been so high. Players like Serral, Maru, Stats and so on have only gotten better. The barrier is in entrance. There are not enough tourneys and prize money to make a really big pool of talented newcomers, like Reynor. But the ones that remained have never been better. Multi pronged attacks are way more refined. Watch the quality of micro and army management nowadays and compare to the top players of 2012, 2013... MC would miss force fields here and there and still win tourneys. Defense has gotten way better. Harass too...
And still, Serral hooves above them all when it comes to skill.
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
It's true, StarCraft 2 has just been going downhill since Fruitdealer.
Now some of you may think I'm joking, but I can prove that it's true using objective facts and logic.
If you made a tournament today for modern players using the map pool of Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, etc. no Zerg player could win it. Very likely no Zerg player could even win a single series. But Fruitdealer won one. And other Zerg players managed to take series. This objectively demonstrates that Zerg players in 2010 were capable of performing feats the much weaker Zerg players of today couldn't even hope to emulate.
Now you may be saying "that logic may be completely irrefutable, but it only proves that modern Zergs suck compared to their 2010 counterparts!" And that's correct, but consider this: modern Terrans and Protosses are so bad that they regularly lose to modern Zergs! This very tournament, which had many modern Terrans and Protosses in it, was capped by a mirror match-up between two modern Zergs! So we must rationally conclude that modern Terrans and Protosses suck too.
The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote: The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better.
I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't.
Geez, when I went on vacation just after the Ro16, this is not at all what I was expecting. 3 Koreans in ro8, 1 in ro4, and 0 in finals - pretty unprecedented, especially when you consider that the only two knockouts at the hands of fellow Koreans happened in the first round.
Serral winning the whole thing, however, came as no surprise.
tbh I still don't think putting Serral at 18th was wrong at the time (putting him below Rain seemed fair to me) but he's probably like somewhere between 10-15th place now that he's won 2 more tournaments. He's not as dominant as last year but he has been top 3 all year (now number 1) unlike last year where he was probably only like in the top 10 for the first few months
In regards to the skill of the Korean scene, I think INno, soO, Zest and herO lost the most skill for sure. Rain and Life no longer playing is pretty huge too. That said, some players like Maru, Stats, Rogue, TY and Dark improved a lot. I don't think that is enough to offset the decline in skill of the Korean scene but I guess my point is that it's not like all the strong Korean players got worse. The very top Korean players now are not much worse than top Korean players in the past.
I think the problem is that there are fewer top Korean players now and the list of top Koreans has little turnover. Ever since Rogue's slump, I would say Serral, Maru, Stats, Classic and Dark have consistently been among the top 5 players (and they have won most of the tournaments among themselves). In HotS, to my knowledge, the top 16 players change a lot every year (only INnovation made it to all 3 Blizzcons in the Korean scene). In LotV, Stats and Dark have already qualified for like 4 Blizzcons (Stats qualified for 3 but he will almost certainly qualify this year since Classic unfortunately has to give up his spot) TY qualified for 3 (still has ok chance of qualifying for 4th one). And keep in mind that it's harder to make Blizzcon now than in the past (because there are only 8 spots).
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
It's true, StarCraft 2 has just been going downhill since Fruitdealer.
Now some of you may think I'm joking, but I can prove that it's true using objective facts and logic.
If you made a tournament today for modern players using the map pool of Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, etc. no Zerg player could win it. Very likely no Zerg player could even win a single series. But Fruitdealer won one. And other Zerg players managed to take series. This objectively demonstrates that Zerg players in 2010 were capable of performing feats the much weaker Zerg players of today couldn't even hope to emulate.
Now you may be saying "that logic may be completely irrefutable, but it only proves that modern Zergs suck compared to their 2010 counterparts!" And that's correct, but consider this: modern Terrans and Protosses are so bad that they regularly lose to modern Zergs! This very tournament, which had many modern Terrans and Protosses in it, was capped by a mirror match-up between two modern Zergs! So we must rationally conclude that modern Terrans and Protosses suck too.
Quod erat demonstrandum!
Hard to argue with this watertight proof, well done
On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote: The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
Chess is quite a simple game
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading after that part. Gotta protect these neurons while they're still kicking.
Serral is the best SC2 player of all time imo. That's coming from someone who generally supports korean protoss and thinks Zerg is obviously op at the moment. Is he the most accomplished? No, at least it's debatable even if he wins another 5 premier tournaments. But I judge the level of play not number of trophies. On that account Serral has one of the best mechanics, versatility, tenacity, reactionary intelligence and has the best balanced strength across 3 matchups I've ever seen. The only area I think he's lacking a bit is mind-game. But hey he has no reason to go that route if he has the aforementioned strengths.
Number of trophies is very misleading. If there's a tournament when everybody sucks, somebody is going to win regardless. Also somebody who wins 10 out of 100 tournaments is not twice as impressive as somebody who wins 5 out of 50 tournaments, except in longevity. But of course there should be a minimal threshold (e.g., winning at least 3 premier tournaments) when it comes to such comparisons, otherwise we should all be praising one and dones.
On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote: The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better.
I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't.
Your approach make sports meaningless.
Chess players aren't skilled at all. Magnus Carlsen is a noob, because if chess was big business like football, he would be just one of many geniuses. If you take into account the speculative skill of all living people on the planet if they had the "dedication, desire and discipline" for 8 years, all sports are just losers playing against losers.
On August 20 2019 01:02 Mun_Su wrote: Tournament was not really exciting
and you came here just to write this, congratz bud....
anyway soO vs TIME game 2 was one the best games I've ever watched, highly recommended
Yeah that guy clearly missed some great SC2, Time v soO was fantastic. I though Special vs Classic was also really good, as well as Neeb vs Elazer.
There were many great matches, but Neeb vs Elazer wasn't one of them. It was the most full-foreigner match ever in a long time, with two players committing the most amazing throws back and forward. Lambo's commentary/analysis of it in his recent stream really highlighted this. He felt sorry for the Koreans who had to experience seeing their own players get knocked out, only to see two foreigners doing foreigners things in a painful, awkward series.
awesome tournament Seriously historical stuff. Very glad that a Polish player played such a big part in it, too (and with such an unexpected run, which makes it even better). Special Congratulations to the winner, he's truly a real monster of a player. Well done.
I really hope this is going to happen next year, too.
On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote: The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better.
I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't.
Your approach make sports meaningless.
Chess players aren't skilled at all. Magnus Carlsen is a noob, because if chess was big business like football, he would be just one of many geniuses. If you take into account the speculative skill of all living people on the planet if they had the "dedication, desire and discipline" for 8 years, all sports are just losers playing against losers.
I read your post a couple of times but I don't understand what you mean, could you rephrase please?
My approach makes sports meaningless? I was saying football and chess players are VERY skilled, even though the two have rather simple rules. You could play both in a park, with a stranger, after 30 seconds of preparation.Thats not meaningless.
I'm just saying that the competitiveness (possession of a strong desire to be more successful than others.) of today's Starcraft is much lower than that of 2010-2011. Back then we had prohouses; maybe thousands of people dedicating their lives to getting better. I was one of them. But today it seems like we have maybe 10-20 people with this drive, half of which became bored, frustrated, content over the last couple of months. There are people in the top30 of current global rankings MMR who are non-fulltime, casters, or whatever. The deceasing number of tournaments, fame, prizes adds to this. Casting, streaming, became equally rewarding in terms of fame. I mean, look at the IdrA fanclub for example, theres like a thousand pages of posts over a span of a year or two, just on one players fanclub. Players like Huk, Naniwa, Marineking, all have 500-1000 pages on their fanclubs, I think Serral has like 30. The drive, fame, was off the charts at that time. Nowhere near where it is now.
On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote: I'm just saying that the competitiveness (possession of a strong desire to be more successful than others.) of today's Starcraft is much lower than that of 2010-2011.
I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can argue that one for Korea ... but in EU, NA i would argue there is much more competitiveness then in earlier years. Just because now there is a goal and it is (much more) worth it. In earlier years there never was a big enough chance for most of the foreigners to be good enough to make it into the prize money ... nowadays with region lock that isn't the case anymore. Same with teams, teamhouses etc. - you now have a lot more of them in EU and NA then 2010-2011.
On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote:The deceasing number of tournaments, fame, prizes adds to this. Casting, streaming, became equally rewarding in terms of fame.
Is it really a deceasing number? I think there is still a huge lot of tournaments ... maybe even too much (although i will not complain about it) regarding the viewership has been sinking over the years. And yeah, casters and streamers make more money nowadays ... but that's because E-Sport and Streaming has evolved a lot. I don't think pricemoney is a lot less in 2019 then it was in 2010-2011. Maybe they changed the distribution a bit in some tournaments (Top 32 instead of only Top 16 or Top 8), but overall it rather has been increased then decreased. As you can see very clearly if you look at the price money rankings ... right now Maru is #1 and Serral #2. Both of them had their biggest successes in the last two years,
On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote:Players like Huk, Naniwa, Marineking, all have 500-1000 pages on their fanclubs, I think Serral has like 30. The drive, fame, was off the charts at that time. Nowhere near where it is now.
Yeah, sure, e-Sport has evolved and SC2 no longer isn't the leading horse like it was in the early years. Now there are a lot of bigger dogs like LoL, Dota etc. But in the end that doesn't says a lot about the quality of the (starcraft) games, as long as there are more then enough people who can make a (very) good living out of it if they are the best und continue to get better.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene, it's not like you were going to recognize Serral's greatness in any of case. What about Maru, then, his next victories won't have any impact? I see now what "double standards" really are
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene
Because...? Both scenes didn't have new blood in ages and has mostly players between 25-30 years. Neither scene has teamhouses or a serious teamleague anymore.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene, it's not like you were going to recognize Serral's greatness in any of case. What about Maru, then, his next victories won't have any impact? I see now what "double standards" really are
Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague
On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote: Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
It's true, StarCraft 2 has just been going downhill since Fruitdealer.
Now some of you may think I'm joking, but I can prove that it's true using objective facts and logic.
If you made a tournament today for modern players using the map pool of Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, etc. no Zerg player could win it. Very likely no Zerg player could even win a single series. But Fruitdealer won one. And other Zerg players managed to take series. This objectively demonstrates that Zerg players in 2010 were capable of performing feats the much weaker Zerg players of today couldn't even hope to emulate.
Now you may be saying "that logic may be completely irrefutable, but it only proves that modern Zergs suck compared to their 2010 counterparts!" And that's correct, but consider this: modern Terrans and Protosses are so bad that they regularly lose to modern Zergs! This very tournament, which had many modern Terrans and Protosses in it, was capped by a mirror match-up between two modern Zergs! So we must rationally conclude that modern Terrans and Protosses suck too.
Quod erat demonstrandum!
Hard to argue with this watertight proof, well done
Thank you good sir and/or madam, I can tell that you are a person of clear mind and impeccable reasoning skills.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene, it's not like you were going to recognize Serral's greatness in any of case. What about Maru, then, his next victories won't have any impact? I see now what "double standards" really are
Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague
Uh, a direct answer, I wasn't expecting this.
Serral would definitely need a second World Championship to enter the GOAT discussion, or a Code S(if he's ever playing it); koreans unsurprisingly play themselves more often, but Serral racks up a decent amount of game against almost exclusively top koreans, the average quality of his opponents is higher.
While team leagues certainly had some relevance in Sc2, they aren't nearly as integral as they were in BW; there is Nation Wars for Serral to win, it would be a noteworthy feat considering Finland has a weak lineup(Zhugeliang is barely top 100 on Aligulac, Fuzer and TheMusZero are below top 200). Serral currently is 23-11 in the competition(he played in the last three editions) and performed two all-kills; not bad, overall.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
lol you and your broken logic again, this is hilarious.
In a very unlikely scenario if Serral wins everything from now on (we know its impossible) and is still not called GOAT (very possible), then no one before him should be called GOAT, because of the definition of "all-time". See how easy it is to do 2+2?
I dont think Serral should be called GOAT. I also don't think anyone else should be called that for many similar or different reasons. However the fact is, for example, is that in the last 1.5 years Serral's match win/loss ratio vs top tier koreans is either higher or on par with the very best korean players. That's a good stat to use as a discussion point.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene
Because...? Both scenes didn't have new blood in ages and has mostly players between 25-30 years. Neither scene has teamhouses or a serious teamleague anymore.
Sc2's pro scene was never abandoned, with its total prizes actually rising back to WoL level these last years; the players are still paid to compete, there are still teams and the most prestigious competitions in the game are still being held. There is no professionalism in Brood War anymore; the game resurrected in the last three but there was an intercourse in which top players were essentially lacking entirely.
You can't help but thinking korean scene is the only relevant one in Sc2, but that's not true; WCS is on the rise, its top players are in the early 20s and there are even younger promising players, along with older veterans. What you say is kind of true for GSL, where there still is a single proleague and whose top players are still in good shape, despite the absence of new blood that could replace them.
The difference between current SC2's and BW's scenes exists, and it is crystal clear; also, isn't it weird that you weren't making this kind of argument as long as your favourite koreans were doing well and now that foreigners have had their strongest showing to date in one international tournament, Sc2's future is actually irrelevant?
another thread where a bunch of people have meltdowns about the fact that everyone is allowed to have their own definition of "greatest player" and there is absolutely no objective algorithm making anyone right or wrong
the way people debate when they can't just appeal to authority is some schoolyard shit
On August 20 2019 23:27 Locutos wrote: Can anyone tell me Serrals winrate against top koreans since 2018??
And compare it to the top the so called Goat contenders (one their best couple of years)??
Not since a specific date, I was a bit lazy in implementing interface options, but you can see the best players by winrate against Koreans for each year here:
Not since a specific date, I was a bit lazy in implementing interface options, but you can see the best players by winrate against Koreans for each year here:
He's catching up in 2019, and in 2018 he was way above and beyond.
Just wanted to say that this is a super cool site.
Serral has only played 19 matches against Koreans in 2019 according to this list, but he ranks third in terms of win%. It's also interesting to note that his average opponent rank is significantly higher than everyone else in the top ten, which means he fought tougher opponents. This makes sense because most of the GSL ro32 players don't (get to) play in the combined tournaments like HSC, IEM, WESG, Blizzcon or GSL vs the World.
I took a look back on stats from the earlier years too. Inno consistently shows up in the top five over large sample sizes since 2013, which lends credibility to the TL community greatest player vote.
Yeah, infestors seem too op, but Serral doesn't need unbalanced units to take it all, he's just one move ahead than anybody else. Oh, my, the way he outplayed TY in those late games... it was beautiful and painful in the same time to watch. What about vipers? He is a true magician with them rather everybody talks about infestors. Once again Serral plays the way Dark played in his best times and even now Dark is not in top form no matter he got Code S. Honestly many players did not play well in this tournament, I expect much serious attitude to Blizzcon grand finals. It's not because we watched non-korean final for a first time in Korea, but Stats, Dark, TY, Maru... soO didn't play even as a Code S player at all...
On August 20 2019 13:28 nimdil wrote: Good luck writing next power ranking
Lol I was thinking exactly this. Not only are they going to be forced to finally put Serral #1, but other top players were upset pretty heavily in this tournament. That being said a couple of those upsets were in PvP (Neeb vs Stats) and ZvZ (Elazer vs Dark) where I feel like those were the matchups the underdogs had the best chance to win in, since both of them are best at the mirror matchup.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Serral may not be the GOAT yet but he's well on his way to the top. He just needs to prove himself in a proper GSL or two, another World Championship wouldn't hurt either
Not since a specific date, I was a bit lazy in implementing interface options, but you can see the best players by winrate against Koreans for each year here:
He's catching up in 2019, and in 2018 he was way above and beyond.
Just wanted to say that this is a super cool site.
Serral has only played 19 matches against Koreans in 2019 according to this list, but he ranks third in terms of win%. It's also interesting to note that his average opponent rank is significantly higher than everyone else in the top ten, which means he fought tougher opponents. This makes sense because most of the GSL ro32 players don't (get to) play in the combined tournaments like HSC, IEM, WESG, Blizzcon or GSL vs the World.
I took a look back on stats from the earlier years too. Inno consistently shows up in the top five over large sample sizes since 2013, which lends credibility to the TL community greatest player vote.
Yeah vs Koreans, serral was 24/28 (85.7 % win) in 2018 and then in 2019 he is 13/19 with a 68.4 win percent
nobody is even close in avg opp rank (SOS at 60% (27/46) has an avg rank vs of 23 but that's the best. everybody else has a lower percent. Neeb for example is 5/17 (29.4% ) this year and Maru has a 60.4 win percent (29/488) but his avg op rank is 25! This year dark has the best win percent 75% (28/37) with an avg op rank of 28
so it seems serral has korean top tier level win percent vs players on avg twice as good?! crazy..
On August 20 2019 23:27 Locutos wrote: Can anyone tell me Serrals winrate against top koreans since 2018??
And compare it to the top the so called Goat contenders (one their best couple of years)??
It's like around 66% I think? I think only Mvp, Innovation, Rogue and sOs had similar winrates in their best years but I didn't check for every player.
Korean scene has long been on the decline. There really hasn't been new players. Looking at the GSL roster for the 2 years should show that. Is Serral impressive for what is doing? Perhaps, but he is also competing against much older and smaller pool of players past their prime
On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote: The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better.
I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't.
Your approach make sports meaningless.
Chess players aren't skilled at all. Magnus Carlsen is a noob, because if chess was big business like football, he would be just one of many geniuses. If you take into account the speculative skill of all living people on the planet if they had the "dedication, desire and discipline" for 8 years, all sports are just losers playing against losers.
I read your post a couple of times but I don't understand what you mean, could you rephrase please?
My approach makes sports meaningless? I was saying football and chess players are VERY skilled, even though the two have rather simple rules. You could play both in a park, with a stranger, after 30 seconds of preparation.Thats not meaningless.
I'm just saying that the competitiveness (possession of a strong desire to be more successful than others.) of today's Starcraft is much lower than that of 2010-2011. Back then we had prohouses; maybe thousands of people dedicating their lives to getting better. I was one of them. But today it seems like we have maybe 10-20 people with this drive, half of which became bored, frustrated, content over the last couple of months. There are people in the top30 of current global rankings MMR who are non-fulltime, casters, or whatever. The deceasing number of tournaments, fame, prizes adds to this. Casting, streaming, became equally rewarding in terms of fame. I mean, look at the IdrA fanclub for example, theres like a thousand pages of posts over a span of a year or two, just on one players fanclub. Players like Huk, Naniwa, Marineking, all have 500-1000 pages on their fanclubs, I think Serral has like 30. The drive, fame, was off the charts at that time. Nowhere near where it is now.
Sure, I'll make my point as simple as I can: the best soccer players can make $100M or more. That is much more than someone could hope to get paid playing chess. So why would you say chess players are high skilled? If same money would be in chess as it is in football, then I can only assume that the current top chess players would be replaced by better players because of more competition.
And this kind of cold calculative approach in my opinion makes following sports meaningless, because it's all about the money.
To be great in chess you have to start as a kid. None of the football players would make a life as chess players. There's not really a more rewarding $$ career for potential top tier chess players than being chess player. Of course academic might be safer if you don't get to the very top but most of the kids who can't make it to the very top in chess can be filtered out.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru won across several patches and they weren’t broken, they were quite bad / coinflippy if you played the game. He mastered it against some protosses but sOs exposed the strategy.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
On August 20 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote: Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague
I don't think Team Leagues are important in that case. I mean, sure, if you are a great player you most likely will carry your team quite a bit ... but in the end it is a team competition, and as such the skill and impact of a single player is much less important then in straight 1 vs 1 tournaments.
On August 20 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote: Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague
I don't think Team Leagues are important in that case. I mean, sure, if you are a great player you most likely will carry your team quite a bit ... but in the end it is a team competition, and as such the skill and impact of a single player is much less important then in straight 1 vs 1 tournaments.
Considering the reputation of Proleague. But sure, the time's different. w/o the starleague titles and more consistent play against Koreans as he's fighting just here and there which results in a low pool of games. (which undermines stats)
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
Other than the series against KeeN, you just made up those stats and demand that we accept them. If you want to be taken seriously, go through the vods and find out how often he actually proxies and cite that.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
Other than the series against KeeN, you just made up those stats and demand that we accept them. If you want to be taken seriously, go through the vods and find out how often he actually proxies and cite that.
I dont need to go through Vods. It's called the eye test.
Most non Maru fan boys will agree his 2018 was a total proxy fest.
But you are a know terran fan boy so I could care less what you think. You can keep stay in denial and keep worshiping your hero
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
You want people to check their facts? Very well
For the GSLs he won:
Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats.
Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest.
Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest.
Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic.
For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim
For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain
In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won.
Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here.
edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
You want people to check their facts? Very well
For the GSLs he won:
Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats.
Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest.
Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest.
Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic.
For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim
For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain
In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won.
Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here.
edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Those stats highlight that Maru wasn't generally addicted to proxies, but he definitely was in season 3(and sOs punished him for that at BlizzCon).
Serral is THE best player in SC2, regardless of race
Elazer put on a very impressive show this week, way more than I expected. Caveat: despite his performance he still pulled a very underhanded move to get voted in. I think what upsets me the most isn’t that he proved his critics wrong but he took the power of choice completely away from us SC2 (literally 8000 people created accounts, voted for him and left without checking any other boxes) fans as a community and for that: he’s turned me into a hater for the time being.
The Team Match is fine: the only thing I’d tweak is that the winner needs to send out a player from the other circuit.
Koreans did not get worse; foreigners got better
Why does Neeb keep doing this to me...?
Afreeca TV’s production value is off the hook and Blizzard could learn a few things from them.
When ppl dont take Serral into consideration for GOAT... do they keep in mind how many times Maru, Innovation and other active GOAT contenders have left championships in the early stages - and in almost 2 years (TWO YEARS), Serral has always delivered.
Here goes for those who simply do not seem able to picture it all...
Last 8 tourneys Serral participated with top Koreans in it:
Blizzcon 2018. Serral Champion. Maru top 8. Inno didnt qualify. Rogue top 4, lost to Serral. GSLvTW 2019. Serral Champion. No comment on the rest. GSLvsTW 2018. Serral champion. Beat Inno and Dark. Maru top 8. Rogue top 16. IEM 2019 -Serral Top 8 (loses to Soo 3 -2. Soo Champion) Maru, Inno, Rogue go down on group stages. IEM 2018 - Serral , Maru top 4 - Inno down in group stages. - Rogue Champion. WESG 2018 - Serral 2nd. Loses to Innovation 4 -3. Maru top 4. Serral beats Dark 3 -1. WESG 2017 - Serral 3rd. beats Classic 3 -1. Maru Champion. ASUS ROG 2019. Serral Top 4. lost 3 -2 to Stats. Stats champion. Maru didnt play. Innovation out in group stages.
On August 22 2019 09:13 Locutos wrote: When ppl dont take Serral into consideration for GOAT... do they keep in mind how many times Maru, Innovation and other active GOAT contenders have left championships in the early stages - and in almost 2 years (TWO YEARS), Serral has always delivered.
Here goes for those who simply do not seem able to picture it all...
Last 8 tourneys Serral participated with top Koreans in it:
Blizzcon 2018. Serral Champion. Maru top 8. Inno didnt qualify. Rogue top 4, lost to Serral. GSLvTW 2019. Serral Champion. No comment on the rest. GSLvsTW 2018. Serral champion. Beat Inno and Dark. Maru top 8. Rogue top 16. IEM 2019 -Serral Top 8 (loses to Soo 3 -2. Soo Champion) Maru, Inno, Rogue go down on group stages. IEM 2018 - Serral , Maru top 4 - Inno down in group stages. - Rogue Champion. WESG 2018 - Serral 2nd. Loses to Innovation 4 -3. Maru top 4. Serral beats Dark 3 -1. WESG 2017 - Serral 3rd. beats Classic 3 -1. Maru Champion. ASUS ROG 2019. Serral Top 4. lost 3 -2 to Stats. Stats champion. Maru didnt play. Innovation out in group stages.
Every time Serral has not been the champion of a tournament, the player who knocked him out ended up with that tournament’s title. Note THAT!
I saw someone mention Korean personalities earlier. Yes boring Korean personalities were complained of during SC2. It's just weird the first foreigner to beat them; is actually more boring than the Koreans.
What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc.
No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind.
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc.
No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind.
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
He called 3 seperate players a bonjwa last year. I think that tells us how credible his opinion on this matter is.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
You want people to check their facts? Very well
For the GSLs he won:
Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats.
Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest.
Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest.
Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic.
For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim
For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain
In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won.
Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here.
edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Thanks for the effort. Must've taken a while but I wish people used numbers more in discussions like this. Then again, being accurate is usually hard.
Edit: As for Serral being Bonjwa. He's not quite there yet but he is as close as any of the other contenders. His peak is around as good as Inno, Rogue and Maru's. Just my opinion but I've always felt that his peak is arguably a bit worse than the other 3 in terms of the quality of the tournaments that he won but it's not totally his fault because he can't play GSL. It's possible that if he played 3 GSLs instead of 4 WCS, he has good chance of at least winning like 1 and getting far in the other 2, which I consider to be better than winning 4 WCS. In some sense, his peak is also a bit better than the others since he almost never lost any series (and his vs-Korean win-rate was considerably higher than Maru or Rogue).
I've thought about it and I have a feeling if he does well at Blizzcon he may be the LotV GOAT by the end of this year (right now I'd rank him at around #3 or #4).
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
You want people to check their facts? Very well
For the GSLs he won:
Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats.
Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest.
Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest.
Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic.
For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim
For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain
In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won.
Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here.
edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Thanks for the stats I forgot how absurdly good Maru is, wow.
On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote: Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2??
He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him.
He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level.
He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
You want people to check their facts? Very well
For the GSLs he won:
Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats.
Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest.
Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest.
Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic.
For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim
For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain
In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won.
Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here.
edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Thanks for the stats I forgot how absurdly good Maru is, wow.
the funny thing is, from what I checked, his offline winrate (in 2018) against Koreans in tournaments other than GSL is only like 50% (map score 29-29, match score 9-7). The preparation format really helped him a lot I think.
What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc.
No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind.
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
I don’t know why so many people make fun of ByuN micro. Sure it wasn’t great every single time, but generally he was the Terran taking the most cost effective trades. (Maybe not with full armies tho)
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
The only way you can make Serral's run sound more dominant than the ones of other players is if you treat WCS tournaments equally but than I can also start calling Byun a bonjwa for dominating Olimoleague and so on.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote: I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
yep, that is inflated indeed. "tournaments in which all players can participate in" do not equal the most competitive, hardest to win tournaments. There is no evidence in support of otherwise. If you'd like to continue this specific route - would be good to compare win/loss percentages, number of months for data representation and average "ranking" of the opponents within this data set. I do agree you might be super on point here and that would be a fantastic thing for everyone to get a look at!
On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote: I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
yep, that is inflated indeed. "tournaments in which all players can participate in" do not equal the most competitive, hardest to win tournaments. There is no evidence in support of otherwise.
Uuuh... what? Are you arguing a WCS is just as hard to win as a GSL?
On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote: I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
yep, that is inflated indeed. "tournaments in which all players can participate in" do not equal the most competitive, hardest to win tournaments. There is no evidence in support of otherwise.
Uuuh... what? Are you arguing a WCS is just as hard to win as a GSL?
Ofc not, why would i do that? Same as you probably shouldn't argue GSL is as hard to win as WCS. In 2018/2019 (not before). There is no conclusive data to support either of the arguments, so it's pointless. Anyway, would you like to continue this discussion - check on that other part in my previous post.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc.
No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind.
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
I don’t know why so many people make fun of ByuN micro. Sure it wasn’t great every single time, but generally he was the Terran taking the most cost effective trades. (Maybe not with full armies tho)
Don't get me wrong, ByuN was the micro beast back when he was on fire. Double the light, half the life or w/e is the thing(in his case quadruple/quarter ). But when he was objectively worse than his opponent in micro, he shouldn't have said that he's good at it. Yet he insisted on it. Similarly Rogue and the lategame. I bet someone with better memory would bring more examples of this.
Serral is a very strong player and he goes towards a big impression but I simply cannot see him as GOAT even in the near future. The dominance wasn't that big in the short term(e.g. Mvp, Maru, Rogue) and he's not here long enough either(e.g. Maru, Inno, Life, Stats, soO). If anything Serral will eventaully take it through the long time as he's not playing in the Code S so he can't get the shortterm domination unless Blizzard pulls the plug too soon. (and unless some of the current GOAT contenders find their long lost mojo )
What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc.
No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind.
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
He called 3 seperate players a bonjwa last year. I think that tells us how credible his opinion on this matter is.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
They can also fly in and out just for the play days. it's not economic nor wise(IMO) but it's possible.
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote: Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
so is yours, i've pointed this many times which you ignore. A lot of things stop a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months. Why don't you go and live in Kenya for 3 months, mate.
there's no real difference between GSL and WCS Tournaments: if you take part in one of them, you probably can't compete in the other, due to overlapping schedules, residency etc.
Both tournament formats have their strengths and weaknesses. And we should be very careful to any korean-biased hybris, especially after this gsl vs. the world...
Even if they would instantly remove region lock, there would be little more competition in gsl or wcs events, as you have to consider the travel and accomodation costs as a risk, when not reaching "the money ranks" in the respective tournament
On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: [quote]
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
On August 22 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote: Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
For sure you can argue how to count HSC. It is only a Major Tournament anyways and, as you said, invite-only.
But on the other hand i would argue it is very relevant because it is very international and usually there are a lot of koreans there, too. NA players are invited, too ... but, well, every player has the right to decline ... HSC hasn't too much price money in the end, so it is probably too much cost for too less payback even for players like Neeb and Scarlett (to be honest, these are the only two NA players who have a chance anyways, since Special isn't NA anymore). And if you want to look if Serral could be contender for GOAT / at same level as Top Koreans ... it doesn't matter anyways if there is a player from NA or not.
But however you will count it ... no point in argueing HSC never will have the same count as an WESG, IEM, GSLvstheWorld or Blizzcon
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
How does HSC being invitational negate the fact that it is one international tournament? NA players were invited, but couldn't be present(Special cancelled his participation) or just didn't want to go; also, with all the due respect, it's not like NA scene is the most prominent… HSC XVII and XIX were Major, XVIII(the one Serral won at the end of last year) was a Premier, there is a significant difference in prize pool.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
which WESG is this because as far as I can see Neeb and Maru have only played one match against each other in 2019 and Neeb got absolutely BOPPED.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
won those weekenders and nothing else before or after(he wasn't a patchzerg, but can't you really see why he was called that way?); Serral won 3 in a row last year after he became a truly godlike player(HSC 2018 does count, you know) and has performed consistently at top level since then, winning his fourth international Premier(HSC 2019 is a Major) tournament more than 12 months after his first.
GOAT claims are due to hype only, while Bonjwa is referred to Serral's absolute invincibility and jawdropping winning streak last year(he isn't because the scene is split and consensus can't be reached, but the level of domination is surely up there).
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
won those weekenders and nothing else before or after(he wasn't a patchzerg, but can't you really see why he was called that way?); Serral won 3 in a row last year after he became a truly godlike player(HSC 2018 does count, you know) and has performed consistently at top level since then, winning his fourth international Premier(HSC 2019 is a Major) tournament more than 12 months after his first.
GOAT claims are due to hype only, while Bonjwa is referred to Serral's absolute invincibility and jawdropping winning streak last year(he isn't because the scene is split and consensus can't be reached, but the level of domination is surely up there).
On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: [quote]
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
How does HSC being invitational negate the fact that it is one international tournament? NA players were invited, but couldn't be present(Special cancelled his participation) or just didn't want to go; also, with all the due respect, it's not like NA scene is the most prominent… HSC XVII and XIX were Major, XVIII(the one Serral won at the end of last year) was a Premier, there is a significant difference in prize pool.
So HSC counts because NA players got invited but cancelled and GSL doesn't count despite NA and EU players participating in it (SortOf and others from EU were in qualifiers) The fact that you even can come up with this ridicolously flawed logic is astounding and worrying to be honest.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
The reason why people didn't shut up about it for over a year was because that moment was actual esports history. KeSPA Cup 2016 was the first time a foreigner won a SC2 tournament on korean soil. And, Neeb won it convincingly. In four matches against Rogue, Zest, Stats, and Trap he lost one map total. Neeb dropped more maps to his practice partner than he did to KeSPA's best players.
IIRC, Neeb was on top of Korean ladder for months beforehand.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote: The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
Better than Life? That's a serious question as someone who doesn't play Zerg
On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
How does HSC being invitational negate the fact that it is one international tournament? NA players were invited, but couldn't be present(Special cancelled his participation) or just didn't want to go; also, with all the due respect, it's not like NA scene is the most prominent… HSC XVII and XIX were Major, XVIII(the one Serral won at the end of last year) was a Premier, there is a significant difference in prize pool.
So HSC counts because NA players got invited but cancelled and GSL doesn't count despite NA and EU players participating in it (SortOf and others from EU were in qualifiers) The fact that you even can come up with this ridicolously flawed logic is astounding and worrying to be honest.
HSC counts because it's a tournament with vastly region mixed participation(at the highest level there are two scenes, WCS and GSL, EU-NA-CHN-TWN-ANZ and every possible non korean local scene aren't relevant) that does not have a residency requirement, neither official nor inherent(unlike Code S).
On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote: The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
Better than Life? That's a serious question as someone who doesn't play Zerg
I think even most top european Zergs overtook Life years ago. Maybe if Life would still play he'd be better but there's no way to know.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
I cannot completely deny that the fact players coming from the one historically weaker scene tend to be more hyped; especially after HoTS, how could western audience be not amazed by Neeb winning a tournament in Korea(the first time in Sc2 history)? I agree that if Trap won that, he wouldn't have lauded as much, but that's because koreans were expected to win and foreigners were severe underdog.
In Serral's case, however, the hype would be justified even if he were an already established top korean player when he started winning, not one foreign prospect struggling to rise as foretold years in advance.
Last year, Serral won 3/5 global events(excluding IEM Pyeonchang as you are doing but including HSC XVIII, there's no reason to leave it out), of which 3 consecutively; that's just as much as Rogue managed to do since, if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles: 4 consecutive weekenders for Rogue, 6 for Serral(3-3 considering international tournaments only). Serral in 2018 was dominant like no other player ever was that's why you see people calling him Bonjwa; no koreans achieved his streak and his win ratio, and no one won as many tournaments in a single year. That's not impressive only because he was born in Finland. In 2019, Serral is not by far the best but his 1/4 in international tournaments is backed up by the best consistency and overall results(ro8 at worst); still a very good deal for any top korean.
As for GOAT claims, they are premature and ultimately unjustifed but, answering your last post in the other thread, do you really believe the koreans you listed had similar period of dominance to Serral's? And those who come close to that, do they have Serral's consistency? A few of them do, but probably no more than 6-7.
Serral in 2018 was less impressive than Maru’s 2018, especially considering how dominant zerg was and how weak Terran was during the year (in spite of having Maru winning all code S and WESG, Terran as a race won less $$ that year than even Protoss, who didn’t have Serral/Maru).
However, being able to win blizzcon / various international tournaments with top Koreans in it, coming from a foreigner background, is unprecedented.
Serral is the only foreigner that managed to surpass Stephano, and exceeded his dominance among foreigners.
The scene is kinda weaker and he is benefitting from zerg era / protected by WCS, but he manages to stay at the top / good enough to win tournaments, even if not all in 2019, across patches, that’s very impressive.
Problem is GOAT discussion is inherently flawed because the games are different and LotV is mainly a post Kespa era, with barely enough good Koreans to fill out 32 code S seats.
Be it Serral or Maru, there will always be question marks / what if regarding the state of the game. They were too young to peak during SC2 hardest era (even tho Maru managed to win star leagues very early) so unless sc2 rises again this debate wouldn’t end.
The best way to be fair answering the goat question, when analyzing Serral who doesnt play GSL/GSL ST, is to compare him to other players currently, in tournaments both players participate, and also take a look at his winrate vs Opposition.
If you do that, you will come to the conclusion that Serral has been the #1 player in the world arguably for about a year, unarguably since Blizzcon, since his results are far far better and far far more consistent than any other player in a head to head, mathematically, he's superior to every other player before him as well, his korean opposition is the nastiest anyone has ever faced, and he also has the highest Winrate, the one issue with Serral's claim to GOATness is basically the short amount of time he's been on top.
If you want to look @ Aligulac, Serral is currently #2 all time, but is quickly catching up to surpass Innovation.
Looking at KOREAN tournament "wons" and discarding WCS is obviously unfair, since Serral doesnt even enter 50%~ of Korean tournaments.
With all that being said, for me Serral is not the GOAT, but another year with similar results and Blizzcon and he will be.
On August 23 2019 03:56 Poopi wrote: Serral in 2018 was less impressive than Maru’s 2018, especially considering how dominant zerg was and how weak Terran was during the year (in spite of having Maru winning all code S and WESG, Terran as a race won less $$ that year than even Protoss, who didn’t have Serral/Maru).
However, being able to win blizzcon / various international tournaments with top Koreans in it, coming from a foreigner background, is unprecedented.
Serral is the only foreigner that managed to surpass Stephano, and exceeded his dominance among foreigners.
The scene is kinda weaker and he is benefitting from zerg era / protected by WCS, but he manages to stay at the top / good enough to win tournaments, even if not all in 2019, across patches, that’s very impressive.
Problem is GOAT discussion is inherently flawed because the games are different and LotV is mainly a post Kespa era, with barely enough good Koreans to fill out 32 code S seats.
Be it Serral or Maru, there will always be question marks / what if regarding the state of the game. They were too young to peak during SC2 hardest era (even tho Maru managed to win star leagues very early) so unless sc2 rises again this debate wouldn’t end.
Still a wonderful era we are living though.
That's your opinion and it's a popular one but there are many who think the opposite is true.
It's noticeable that non Serral Zerg were having great results at the start of the year(Rogue and Scarlett won IEN, Dark reached WESG finals), but while Serral was dominating, Reynor was the only other Zerg to reach a single final considering three WCS, two Code S seasons, GSL vs The World, GSL Super Tournament, BlizzCon and HSC; so much for a race supposed to be that strong. In 2019 he's back to be a mere top player, no idea how you can think WCS is protecting him...
I want to remind you that KeSpa era took place in a more competitive enviroment in Korea, but HoTS was a less demanding game than LoTV. Also, Maru was much more committed into Sc2 than Serral, who made the full switch in 2017, was at the time KeSpa was still into sc2.
On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote: The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
Better than Life? That's a serious question as someone who doesn't play Zerg
I think even most top european Zergs overtook Life years ago. Maybe if Life would still play he'd be better but there's no way to know.
The amount Life was better than every other Zerg was insane. I do believe that if he wasn't stupid enough to throw away his carrer stupidly he would have continue to improve and would have been at the top of the world today.
Or he would have faded away with the rest of the Korean scene with the region lock.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
which WESG is this because as far as I can see Neeb and Maru have only played one match against each other in 2019 and Neeb got absolutely BOPPED.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
On August 22 2019 20:37 deacon.frost wrote: Serral is a very strong player and he goes towards a big impression but I simply cannot see him as GOAT even in the near future. The dominance wasn't that big in the short term(e.g. Mvp, Maru, Rogue) and he's not here long enough either(e.g. Maru, Inno, Life, Stats, soO). If anything Serral will eventaully take it through the long time as he's not playing in the Code S so he can't get the shortterm domination unless Blizzard pulls the plug too soon. (and unless some of the current GOAT contenders find their long lost mojo )
Dominance wasnt that big ?? What was his tournament results at the end of 2018 ? 42-0 or something similar ? And he beat every single korean players that he met at that time. In 2019 he hasnt been as dominant, but still winning tournaments and getting at least to top-4 almost in all of them, losing only to winners of those tournaments and only by 1 map. I dont know how much more you can demand since nobody has 100% winrate in long run.......Oh, except Serral in 2018. I dont know if he can be called GOAT yet, but at least it can be speculated and that already is a lot. And what goes to Code-S.....it starts to already be near the level of WCS nowadays so its not a big deal anymore. And do you guys really think he would bust out in ro32 or ro16 or something ? Maybe if the group happened to be Raynor/Stats/Maru/Innovation.......and that means those all would have to play their a-game to make it happen.
And one thing that all korean fans dont seem to recognize:
On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote: The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
Very well said, I agree 10000%. He is always number 1 in every server he plays. He has had higher MMR than anyone else on ladder for a long time. He wins most tournaments nowadays and has the best winrate. He has been in top4 of the world at least 1,5 years now and arguably being number 1 about a year+. Even every Korean says he is number1, and have been saying that a long time. And in addition, his gameplay is something I havent seen in Starcraft in this whole 9 years, and many others say the same thing too. What Artosis said in the Pylon show is a very valid point: "He comes back and wins games where every other player/zerg is dead.".....and he has done it many, many times. He isnt flawless, he isnt invincible, he isnt perfect........but he is very near being all of that.
I made this point earlier in the thread but it may have gotten buried in the page turns so I will make it one more time:
Serral either wins the tournament or he is knocked out by the champion of that tournament since his run started in 2018, with one exception.
He had a 50+ match offline win streak vs the best players not only in the WCS but also Koreans as well to boot.
Here are the premier tournaments he’s not won since 2018 began:
IEM Katowice 2018: knocked out by Classic in semis. WESG 2017: knocked out by Maru in semis. IEM Katowice 2019: knocked out by soO in Ro8. WESG 2018: knocked out by INnoVation in Final. WCS Winter 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final. WCS Summer 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final. ASUS ROG: knocked out by Stats in Ro4.
Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy.
On August 23 2019 14:55 StarcraftSquall wrote: I made this point earlier in the thread but it may have gotten buried in the page turns so I will make it one more time:
Serral either wins the tournament or he is knocked out by the champion of that tournament since his run started in 2018, with one exception.
He had a 50+ match offline win streak vs the best players not only in the WCS but also Koreans as well to boot.
Here are the premier tournaments he’s not won since 2018 began:
IEM Katowice 2018: knocked out by Classic in semis. WESG 2017: knocked out by Maru in semis. IEM Katowice 2019: knocked out by soO in Ro8. WCS Winter 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final. WCS Summer 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final. ASUS ROG: knocked out by Stats in Ro4.
Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
They will not respond to your posts because they contain facts they cant argue against, they ignore all the posts that ask for quantitative analysis and relevant data sets. So unless you start saying provocative incorrect stuff like "WCS > GSL" your posts will be ignored. At this point the whole world has already moved on except for those two.
On August 23 2019 14:55 StarcraftSquall wrote: I made this point earlier in the thread but it may have gotten buried in the page turns so I will make it one more time:
Serral either wins the tournament or he is knocked out by the champion of that tournament since his run started in 2018, with one exception.
He had a 50+ match offline win streak vs the best players not only in the WCS but also Koreans as well to boot.
Here are the premier tournaments he’s not won since 2018 began:
IEM Katowice 2018: knocked out by Classic in semis. WESG 2017: knocked out by Maru in semis. IEM Katowice 2019: knocked out by soO in Ro8. WCS Winter 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final. WCS Summer 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final. ASUS ROG: knocked out by Stats in Ro4.
Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
They will not respond to your posts because they contain facts they cant argue against, they ignore all the posts that ask for quantitative analysis and relevant data sets. So unless you start saying provocative incorrect stuff like "WCS > GSL" your posts will be ignored. At this point the whole world has already moved on except for those two.
What is there to respond too? I don't see why it matters if the player that beats him happens to win the tournament or not. I have never seen this argument in any other best player discussion but it seems Serral fanboys are pretty desperate in trying to make their god look as good as possible.
congratulations to serral, he is good enough to win any opponents. And I am a TIME fan, I think he can do it well in the next Montreal game and go to the Blizzard con.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy.
I didn't say WCS=Code S either. What's really idiot is completely ignoring WCS, in an era when western players are competitive against koreans(where were you last week?); if you include a non international weekender like Super Tournament into Rogue's streak, there is no reason but your korean elitist bias not to include WCS titles as well.
It's more like that you are cornered and desperate to find arguments that would make Serral look worse than he actually is.
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy.
I didn't say WCS=Code S either. What's really idiot is completely ignoring WCS, in an era when western players are competitive against koreans(where were you last week?); if you include a non international weekender like Super Tournament into Rogue's streak, there is no reason but your korean elitist bias not to include WCS titles as well.
It's more like that you are cornered and desperate to find arguments that would make Serral look worse than he actually is.
Your reasoning for Code S not being an international tournament was that people have to stay there for 3+ months. But why is GSL ST not an international tournament despite only requiring you to stay there 1 weekend??
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:
On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote: Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy.
I didn't say WCS=Code S either. What's really idiot is completely ignoring WCS, in an era when western players are competitive against koreans(where were you last week?); if you include a non international weekender like Super Tournament into Rogue's streak, there is no reason but your korean elitist bias not to include WCS titles as well.
It's more like that you are cornered and desperate to find arguments that would make Serral look worse than he actually is.
Your reasoning for Code S not being an international tournament was that people have to stay there for 3+ months. But why is GSL ST not an international tournament despite only requiring you to stay there 1 weekend??
First of all, we should ignore the fact Super Tournament has offline qualifiers in Korea weeks before the actual tournament so that you are required to stay more than a single weekend. Super Tournament for sure has less residency requirements than Code S and it might potentially be an international tournament; what it lacks is a relevant participation of WCS players.
ST II 2017, the one Rogue won, actually had TIME in the tournament while Namshar, Elazer, Zerghamdi, Yogo and RushCrazy tried to qualify: 6/56 non koreans in the qualifiers into 1/16 in the final bracket seems too little WCS presence to justify the claim that it was one "international" tournament.
To sum up, GSL Super Tournament is not international by name(BlizzCon 2014, for example, was undeniably international despite being full korean), and it's not made international by its players so, unsurpringly, I would say it counts as a korean tournament.
[B] Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
Change that for: You have to be in champion form to beat Serral.
On August 23 2019 19:00 evilheaven wrote: congratulations to serral, he is good enough to win any opponents. And I am a TIME fan, I think he can do it well in the next Montreal game and go to the Blizzard con.
Time reminds me of theStC. StC peaked out of nowhere with incredible skill and pushed the limits of the best players at that time. At hist best he even looked better then a player like Puma, but Puma succeeded because he had perfected a build order better then anyone else. Unfortunately, he always fell short in the end. I really thought he had the potential to take a trophy.
The Glicko rating system that Aligulac uses is claimed by its creator to be almost exactly mirroring the Elo system, so it should be pretty reliable if the claim is true. Looking at the top 10 list, it looks pretty reliable. The lower down the list goes, the less reliable it gets, because (#1) the weaker players don't get the chance to compete in global tournaments as often, and (#2) the nature of the single elimination format of tournaments. The cause of #1 is obviously the region lock, and this is a problem that no rating system can really overcome. All in all, you can say the top 3 in the Aligulac system is very reliable.
In regards to hindrance #2, the round robin format allows all participants to have many games, whereas the SE format doesn't. However, the RR format doesn't allow for too many players to participate, for the obvious mathematical reason. The SE format also gives big rating points to the winner of the tournament. For example, if 8 players of the exact same skill level (say, 1700 rating) compete in a SE tournament, the winner will get a relatively large rating boost, whereas in a RR tournament the ending rating for all participants would be roughly equal, despite there being a technical "winner." However, the more SE tournaments that go on, the more the ratings of all these 8 players will roughly equalize, since they've probably gathered a roughly equal number of matches. Except for one crucial problem: unlike chess which doesn't change, SC2 changes by the season with new maps and patches, and we don't have nearly enough global tournaments to counter how heavily the SE format affects a rating system's reliability.
That's why I said the top 3 on aligulac is very reliable, because these players have had the chance to play the most number of tournament games. Basically, more games played = more reliable rating.
after seeing this tournament i have to agree that serral is the best player in the world.
BUT there is a but. i think peak MARU was more impressive when he was the best than serral is now assuming we take balance into consideration. if not, serral is just straight up the best imo.
maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
The problem with aligulac isn't the algorithm per se.
It's the fact that it takes all games into account equally (you could reach number 1 purely from online matches for example). In some ways this isn't a issue, as aligulac is used to predict the outcome of any game to begin with, and in this sense it works. It becomes a problem if you simply don't care about irrelevent/online/show matches.
The other issue is fact that the starcraft circuit is split between foreigners and koreans. As players from the two circuits compete less often, the difference in ratings between them will eventually become lower as there's no way for the system to account for differences in skill. (In the same way that being 7K mmr on europe server is less impressive than 7k on korea server for example.)
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
3 Zergs in Blizzcon ro8, 2 Zergs in GSL vs the world ro4. Those Zergs only lost in ZvZ. WCS Montreal ZvZ finals.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
They were doing fine, better than terran (since we are doing other than Maru for KR as well ^^):
But in KR they were less dominant than protoss, probably because there are less top zergs than top protosses there? Idk, it's still a very healthy amount of WCS points.
I'd have done top 16 instead of 13 but the link I found first had weirdly only 13 entries.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
They mostly lost to Serral though. Without Serral, Elazer/Scarlett/Reynor win all the WCS events. Blizzcon and GSL vs TW could easily have gone to Rogue or Dark.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
Just for curiosity, the only players to win tournaments while being the sole X race in the ro8 are:
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
Just for curiosity, the only players to win tournaments while being the sole X race in the ro8 are:
Honestly, I don't really think any race is op atm. These are massive generalizations but for past 3 years, Terran has been best at winning GSL and WESG, Zerg is best at winning other tournaments (2/3 IEM WC, 2/3 Blizzcon, most WCS Circuit, etc). Protoss gets short end of the stick in both criteria but it has the most top 20 players (kind of reminds me of Brood War and the Six Dragons).
Elazer's point that the balance is good but the design is really bad seems most reasonable. Zerg is good in late-game but vulnerable in mid-game for example. So while I can sympathize with people who are bothered by how Serral makes Zerg lategame look so broken, I don't think it is an unfair advantage in the grand scheme of things. I think Serral is the furthest thing from a patch zerg because he got as far as he did mainly because of his great defense, multitask and game sense. None of these things are hurt/helped much by meta changes, unlike micro (as seen in effect of the Reaper nerf on ByuN's performance).
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
They were doing fine, better than terran (since we are doing other than Maru for KR as well ^^):
But in KR they were less dominant than protoss, probably because there are less top zergs than top protosses there? Idk, it's still a very healthy amount of WCS points.
I'd have done top 16 instead of 13 but the link I found first had weirdly only 13 entries.
By looking at WCS standings, you are including tournaments before Serral's peak and you are leaving out HSC XVIII. Despite that, you actually proved my point, which is that Zerg wasn't overpowered in 2018 and that Serral didn't benefit of "Zerg being clearly the best race". The state of Terran has nothing to do with that.
>3 Zergs in Blizzcon ro8, 2 Zergs in GSL vs the world ro4. Those Zergs only lost in ZvZ. WCS Montreal ZvZ finals. >
Funny shit, this is so obvious you're cherry picking, using different standards for different tournaments.
Let's actually be TRY to objective:
GSL v Word: 2 of 8 Z
GSL S1: 2 of 8 Z
GSL S2: 2 of 8 Z
GSL ST: 0 of 8 Z
ASUS ROG: 2 of 8 Z
HSC: 2 of 6 Z (bracket kinda weird)
We can even do WCS!
WCS Summer: 3 of 8 Z
WCS Spring: 3 of 8 Z
ZeRG So DoMinAANT!!!
[/QUOTE] Even your cherry-picked stats show Zerg at least being on par with the other races. [/QUOTE] Clearly you didn't do the math. But you did make the post, so that's at least half of the job, right?
sorry for starting this discussion. but people on reddit prefer thumb downs over actual discussion. any balance releated talk most often result in a thumb down, assuming your not point on. this forum seems like a much better place to discuss it.
the raven style maru used to 3/0 serral was imba. but so i current zerg late game at current balance.. . Terran did not have statistic on its side however when maru stomped hes way into victory as terran. i dont think terran consistently was above 33% in ro8, ro 4 or ro 2 when maru was dominating. it was only one TVT final in gsl, compeared to atleast 50% ZVZ finals in WCS.
i watched TY analysis of hes games vs serral, and he seemed to agree that serral was mechanical superior to himself. and that he should have won most of the games if he was as good mechanically as serral. but then again TY is a caster. so he cant rant about balance. compeared to someone like special.
he also said maru had a good shot to beat serral, but absolutely zero chance against serral if it went to late game. he said absolutely zero zero chance.
Maru himself said in an interview at GSL vs the World that he was not anywhere near as good as Serral. In a previous GSL Code S interview this year he also stated that Serral’s dominance in 2018 was the most impressive thing he’d ever witnessed in SC2.
But guys: here is the real kicker:
Serral is not just a Zerg in SC2. He is THE Zerg. Just like Flash in BW is not just a Terran. He is THE Terran. Neither player simply is playing their race; they are defining it.
That’s the best description/comparison I can come up with.
On August 24 2019 14:04 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru himself said in an interview at GSL vs the World that he was not anywhere near as good as Serral. In a previous GSL Code S interview this year he also stated that Serral’s dominance in 2018 was the most impressive thing he’d ever witnessed in SC2.
Sorry, I don’t have the exact time of these interviews. Going off memory, I believe the GSL vs the World segment takes place after the team match and the other one took place during his Ro32 about a month ago between the matches: (before his match with TY IIRC)? You may need to pull up the Twitch broadcasts to see these, I’m not sure the YouTube VODs saved the content. I am not sure if this is the right Code S link but I know it’s the right GSL vs The World link. It’s been a while...
Serral himself said in an interview at WESG 2018 that he was not anywhere near as good as Maru. In a recent WCS interview this year he also stated that Maru's dominance in 2018 was the most impressive thing he’d ever witnessed in SC2.
But guys: here is the real kicker:
Maru is not just a Terran in SC2. He is THE Terran Just like Flash in BW is not just a Terran. He is THE Terran. Neither player simply is playing their race; they are defining it.
That’s the best description/comparison I can come up with.
Every Korean interview outside of "big" personalities like MC, or when Bisu was interviewed about Hwasin, etc. are always very polite, submissive, or cordial at the very least. "My opponent played very well, I thought I was going to lose but I barely won, and I have to thank my fans, my coaches, and my practice partners for all of my success," that sort of deal.
The fact remains that anyone throwing around the term "bonjwa" has probably zero clue of what its origins are and how they manifest. The fact remains that any "objective" source of information like aligulac are flawed simply due to the forced divide between foreign and Korean scenes. The fact remains that any comparison between the two scenes is therefore forcibly subjective, wherein both parties have seemingly jingoistic beliefs to the other.
It's all wasted conversation. It's all ___ BUT ___. Serral did X BUT he didn't do Y. Serral COULD DO X but he chose to do Y. Is GSL the premier tournament in the world? If so, does Serral not play in it because the "inferred" requirements are too stringent? Or does the fact that he does not play in the tournament mean that the stringent requirements guarantee he will never make as much money playing in GSL as he does in the wellfare circuit? One could argue either side. Serral doesn't go to Korean and play GSL because he knows he will have a harder time making money overall - after all, Blizzard made sure that Koreans couldn't take all of the winnings globally, because they are so good! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because he knows he will make LESS money - after all, Blizzard made sure that anyone in Korea has less access to money than the rest of the world! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because his life circumstances don't allow it - imagine relocating to a country just for a videogame where they don't speak your language! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he's a coward! Serral doesn't go to Korea because that scene is dead! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he doesn't have To Be ThE BeSt! etc.
You are all spouting hot air past each other, and it's not your fault. Blizzard accurately determined that Korea is more interested in Brood War, the West is more interested in SC2, so they created a system in which the players that were initially forced out of Brood War are now drawn back to it, the players/viewers that were disenfranchised with Koreans now get a "healthy" scene because there are more European players winning games, so on and so forth. We're all being played by the machinations of the dealer. This is all according to plan, YagamiLight.png. Institute a drastic change in how competition works -> wait a few years -> reap benefits of micromanaging a game's scene to suit the Xainons and Serrals, but unfortunately it is evident enough so that the Charoisaurs and Jealoses have enough room to balk at the aforementioned parties because of the long history prior. It's the perfect crime.
TLDR: The whole scene is a manufactured good, by design, by Blizzard.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
They were doing fine, better than terran (since we are doing other than Maru for KR as well ^^):
But in KR they were less dominant than protoss, probably because there are less top zergs than top protosses there? Idk, it's still a very healthy amount of WCS points.
I'd have done top 16 instead of 13 but the link I found first had weirdly only 13 entries.
By looking at WCS standings, you are including tournaments before Serral's peak and you are leaving out HSC XVIII. Despite that, you actually proved my point, which is that Zerg wasn't overpowered in 2018 and that Serral didn't benefit of "Zerg being clearly the best race". The state of Terran has nothing to do with that.
Including everyone zerg still leads the race with ~42k points, Protoss ~40k points and Terran ~32k points. They also won the most money in 2018, ahead of Protoss and far ahead of Terran, in spite of Maru wins.
Maru made the impossible whereas Serral won the ZvZ. At BlizzCon I knew it was either Rogue or Serral after ro4, Stats didn’t stand a chance.
Point is, zergs were doing very well even without Serral, and he benefited from his race becoming very good.
Coincidentally his « peak » as you cherrypick it, starts after some patches (after WESG and IEM notably, where he was defeated).
On August 24 2019 16:15 Jealous wrote: Every Korean interview outside of "big" personalities like MC, or when Bisu was interviewed about Hwasin, etc. are always very polite, submissive, or cordial at the very least. "My opponent played very well, I thought I was going to lose but I barely won, and I have to thank my fans, my coaches, and my practice partners for all of my success," that sort of deal.
The fact remains that anyone throwing around the term "bonjwa" has probably zero clue of what its origins are and how they manifest. The fact remains that any "objective" source of information like aligulac are flawed simply due to the forced divide between foreign and Korean scenes. The fact remains that any comparison between the two scenes is therefore forcibly subjective, wherein both parties have seemingly jingoistic beliefs to the other.
It's all wasted conversation. It's all ___ BUT ___. Serral did X BUT he didn't do Y. Serral COULD DO X but he chose to do Y. Is GSL the premier tournament in the world? If so, does Serral not play in it because the "inferred" requirements are too stringent? Or does the fact that he does not play in the tournament mean that the stringent requirements guarantee he will never make as much money playing in GSL as he does in the wellfare circuit? One could argue either side. Serral doesn't go to Korean and play GSL because he knows he will have a harder time making money overall - after all, Blizzard made sure that Koreans couldn't take all of the winnings globally, because they are so good! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because he knows he will make LESS money - after all, Blizzard made sure that anyone in Korea has less access to money than the rest of the world! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because his life circumstances don't allow it - imagine relocating to a country just for a videogame where they don't speak your language! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he's a coward! Serral doesn't go to Korea because that scene is dead! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he doesn't have To Be ThE BeSt! etc.
You are all spouting hot air past each other, and it's not your fault. Blizzard accurately determined that Korea is more interested in Brood War, the West is more interested in SC2, so they created a system in which the players that were initially forced out of Brood War are now drawn back to it, the players/viewers that were disenfranchised with Koreans now get a "healthy" scene because there are more European players winning games, so on and so forth. We're all being played by the machinations of the dealer. This is all according to plan, YagamiLight.png. Institute a drastic change in how competition works -> wait a few years -> reap benefits of micromanaging a game's scene to suit the Xainons and Serrals, but unfortunately it is evident enough so that the Charoisaurs and Jealoses have enough room to balk at the aforementioned parties because of the long history prior. It's the perfect crime.
TLDR: The whole scene is a manufactured good, by design, by Blizzard.
good point. It's pretty much impossible for either side to convince the other because they place emphasis on different things (maybe partly because of bias but also maybe because of legitimate differences in opinion).
On August 24 2019 14:04 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru himself said in an interview at GSL vs the World that he was not anywhere near as good as Serral. In a previous GSL Code S interview this year he also stated that Serral’s dominance in 2018 was the most impressive thing he’d ever witnessed in SC2.
Except Maru never said any of that. He said it was impressive that a foreigner was finding this much success, and then he added that he probably would've won Blizzcon if he hadn't lost to sOs. In GSL vs. the World, he said that if he played in WCS, he would win everything. He even said he wanted to play Serral. None of that implies that he thinks Serral is the best player.
On August 24 2019 14:04 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru himself said in an interview at GSL vs the World that he was not anywhere near as good as Serral. In a previous GSL Code S interview this year he also stated that Serral’s dominance in 2018 was the most impressive thing he’d ever witnessed in SC2.
Except Maru never said any of that. He said it was impressive that a foreigner was finding this much success, and then he added that he probably would've won Blizzcon if he hadn't lost to sOs. In GSL vs. the World, he said that if he played in WCS, he would win everything. He even said he wanted to play Serral. None of that implies that he thinks Serral is the best player.
I think Maru is more scared of the top protoss than Serral as of now.
On August 24 2019 03:18 Balkow wrote:maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
In terms of skill, absolutely. Serral is that much better than other zergs that him winning in a situation where no others make ro8 is realistic.
That being said however, zerg has been dominating since 2017. Which includes every time Serral has gone deep in a tournament. So it's impossible to say for sure. INnoVation in his prime for instance looks better than every other terran, yet has barely ever been the sole terran in a ro8 (let alone win while being the sole terran). He's just not able to win without a favourable meta despite having some of the strongest wins in sc2 history.
Also zerg is good enough that none in a ro8 seems impossible at this point. At least not if foreigners are present in the event (I can see a gsl ro8 being no zerg tbh).
thanks for the reply, you understood my question completely. i think the reason so many people have a hard time accepting serral as number 1 is because zerg is also dominating now. wins more than half of the tournaments + is present in 95ish% of all finals. it was much easier to accept maru as number 1 when maru won and the rest of the terran race was doing bad.
i rewatched serral vs maru from 1-2 years ago, when raven was still strong and maru 3/0 serral. terran at that point to zerg. is as zerg is to terran now. back then zerg could be hugely ahead in resources but lost to ravens. now terran can be hugely ahead and lose to infestors-brood lords.
but based on statistics i honestly dont know if serral is good enough to dominate without a zerg favored meta.
at current balance we cant deny that serral is number one. but we cant deny that Zerg is the best race also, no matter what dark says.
Go watch how Zerg other than Serral were doing in Premier tournaments while he was at his peak, your question has already been answered.
They were doing fine, better than terran (since we are doing other than Maru for KR as well ^^):
But in KR they were less dominant than protoss, probably because there are less top zergs than top protosses there? Idk, it's still a very healthy amount of WCS points.
I'd have done top 16 instead of 13 but the link I found first had weirdly only 13 entries.
By looking at WCS standings, you are including tournaments before Serral's peak and you are leaving out HSC XVIII. Despite that, you actually proved my point, which is that Zerg wasn't overpowered in 2018 and that Serral didn't benefit of "Zerg being clearly the best race". The state of Terran has nothing to do with that.
Including everyone zerg still leads the race with ~42k points, Protoss ~40k points and Terran ~32k points. They also won the most money in 2018, ahead of Protoss and far ahead of Terran, in spite of Maru wins.
Maru made the impossible whereas Serral won the ZvZ. At BlizzCon I knew it was either Rogue or Serral after ro4, Stats didn’t stand a chance.
Point is, zergs were doing very well even without Serral, and he benefited from his race becoming very good.
Coincidentally his « peak » as you cherrypick it, starts after some patches (after WESG and IEM notably, where he was defeated).
If you add Serral, it's 42.8 k for Zerg and over 42k for Protoss, a slight difference.
But again, you are missing the mark: you brought Maru into this discussion and he's not the point(also, "impossible"? Rofl, Terran emerge as weakest race but balance wasn't really that bad. TY would have probably won Code S S3).
I'll repeat it:including the whole 2018 is someway misleading. Serral peaked after the patch in May(but still won HSC in another patch) and that's not something I am cherrypicking: just compare Serral's titles, win ratio, streak before and after Nation Wars.
Coincidentally, Zerg players other than Serral were doing better before that patch: 2 titles and 2 finals out of 6 Premier tournaments compared to 1 title granted by Montreal's single ZvZ final in the whole year and 3 other final appearances(Austin, GSL vs the World and BlizzCon) out of 9 Premier tournaments; also, Stats could have easily beat Rogue at BlizzCon.
Serral ascended to a class of his own in 2018 and that's why he won, Zerg was a balanced race that definitely didn't improve at the same time he did(if anything, they were getting slightly worse results) so this tale that Serral "benefitted from his race becoming very good" is indeed very false.
On August 24 2019 16:15 Jealous wrote: Every Korean interview outside of "big" personalities like MC, or when Bisu was interviewed about Hwasin, etc. are always very polite, submissive, or cordial at the very least. "My opponent played very well, I thought I was going to lose but I barely won, and I have to thank my fans, my coaches, and my practice partners for all of my success," that sort of deal.
The fact remains that anyone throwing around the term "bonjwa" has probably zero clue of what its origins are and how they manifest. The fact remains that any "objective" source of information like aligulac are flawed simply due to the forced divide between foreign and Korean scenes. The fact remains that any comparison between the two scenes is therefore forcibly subjective, wherein both parties have seemingly jingoistic beliefs to the other.
It's all wasted conversation. It's all ___ BUT ___. Serral did X BUT he didn't do Y. Serral COULD DO X but he chose to do Y. Is GSL the premier tournament in the world? If so, does Serral not play in it because the "inferred" requirements are too stringent? Or does the fact that he does not play in the tournament mean that the stringent requirements guarantee he will never make as much money playing in GSL as he does in the wellfare circuit? One could argue either side. Serral doesn't go to Korean and play GSL because he knows he will have a harder time making money overall - after all, Blizzard made sure that Koreans couldn't take all of the winnings globally, because they are so good! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because he knows he will make LESS money - after all, Blizzard made sure that anyone in Korea has less access to money than the rest of the world! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because his life circumstances don't allow it - imagine relocating to a country just for a videogame where they don't speak your language! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he's a coward! Serral doesn't go to Korea because that scene is dead! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he doesn't have To Be ThE BeSt! etc.
You are all spouting hot air past each other, and it's not your fault. Blizzard accurately determined that Korea is more interested in Brood War, the West is more interested in SC2, so they created a system in which the players that were initially forced out of Brood War are now drawn back to it, the players/viewers that were disenfranchised with Koreans now get a "healthy" scene because there are more European players winning games, so on and so forth. We're all being played by the machinations of the dealer. This is all according to plan, YagamiLight.png. Institute a drastic change in how competition works -> wait a few years -> reap benefits of micromanaging a game's scene to suit the Xainons and Serrals, but unfortunately it is evident enough so that the Charoisaurs and Jealoses have enough room to balk at the aforementioned parties because of the long history prior. It's the perfect crime.
TLDR: The whole scene is a manufactured good, by design, by Blizzard.
Elite koreans have said that serral is the strongest player in the world outside of formal interviews (like at the last HSC where stats, solar, zest said that serral was the strongest and TY, off the record, straight up said that serral was the guy he didnt want to play)
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL. Bonjwa should be about win rate and showing dominance over longer period. Just look at Serral's winrate at the highest level of play since 2017. He won almost every tournament he entered or went very deep in it. He cannot be named GOAT yet because there are players much more accomplished than him. Maybe if he takes another Blizzcon or GSL we can call him GOAT, but you simply can't deny bonjwa status, how dare you...
PS: I'm not Serral's fanboy really, but come on just give him the respect that he obviously earned already. In SC2, there was no other player that consistent and dominant for such a long period.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia.
Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc
And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia.
Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc
And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well.
Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. If you take elite players as a condition (I guess you mean top Koreans), you should add the 2 HSCs he won vs Innovation and TY.
Just my observation, I don't really think there are no elite players in WCS besides Serral. Of course a GSL win is still worth more than a WCS win.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Those qualifications were added after the fact. From my perspective and recollection, the single most important criterion for bonjwa status was the consensus of the fans (the Korean community, at the time). The line of bonjwa ended with Savior, as there was never a unanimously dominant figure until Flash rose above the title to be something different - a God.
Thus, Serral is not "bonjwa" not only because the term is anachronistic, but also because there isn't a unified consensus about it. That's really all there is to it.
It's hard to go back and backtrack like that I just checked 1 player which was inno, it seems to me you're counting some major's for innovation, but discounting Serral's 2xHSC's.
Innovation should also be participating in more tournaments with koreans than you're tracking.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia.
Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc
And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well.
Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. If you take elite players as a condition (I guess you mean top Koreans), you should add the 2 HSCs he won vs Innovation and TY.
Just my observation, I don't really think there are no elite players in WCS besides Serral. Of course a GSL win is still worth more than a WCS win.
What? A logical take on Serral vs Maru? Can such a thing exist??
But in all seriousness, I agree with this outlook the most. You obviously can't weight a GSL and a WCS as the same, but to totally dismiss one because it's less prestigious and has less elite players is a bit silly to me.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia.
Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc
And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well.
Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics.
Liquipedia seems really inconistant on what counts as a premier events to begin with so you kinda just have to make up your own metric. It lists the 2016 cross finals as a premier event despite no one actually taking it as more than a showmatch. About half the HSC events are "premier" and half are "major".
I also think some tournaments are just worth more than others. Starleagues reign supreme. Katowice is worth more than smaller weekenders etc. And even then you can get into ranking which runs are better than others.
As far as Serral winning WCS events goes, they're irrelevent when comparing him to the all time great streaks. Mvp, INno, Maru, Zest etc in their primes would have smashed tournaments had they gone up against the same level of competition.
I don't see how it's unfair to exclude events that featured no (or very weak) competition. I'd argue that none of Serral's WCS wins had him beat even a single top 10 player. Neeb had a 15% winrate vs koreans in 2017 and still came damn close to winning 4/4 WCS events.
Serral since the start of 2018 has played 8 big tournaments that featured at some some of the best in the world. And won 3 of them. I think it's fair to compare that to the others I listed, all of whom had similar streaks over the same number of events
On August 25 2019 05:20 terribleplayer1 wrote: It's hard to go back and backtrack like that I just checked 1 player which was inno, it seems to me you're counting some major's for innovation, but discounting Serral's 2xHSC's.
Innovation should also be participating in more tournaments with koreans than you're tracking.
Only including big events.
From december 2016 to august 2017 INno won IEM Gyeonggi, SSL S1, GSL vs TW, and Code S season 3. I'm pretty sure there were nine big tournaments during that time (3xGSL, SSL, 3xIEM, Super tournament, GSL vs TW) unless I'm forgetting some
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
It's the opposite. If he would be korean nobody would even think about calling him bonjwa. (except maybe Artosis). It's just annoying fanboys who say that because for them a white guy doing what multiple koreans have done before makes it instantly 10 times as impressive.
I know people weigh WCS differently but nowadays, I weigh it around as much as a GSL semifinal (in terms of difficulty and prestige) personally (1/4 value of GSL). I wonder what other people think. I think if people actually compared the strength of GSL and WCS in terms better than " GSL is way better" or just "slightly better," that would clarify why people have such different opinions on Serral's successes.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia.
Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc
And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well.
Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics.
Liquipedia seems really inconistant on what counts as a premier events to begin with so you kinda just have to make up your own metric. It lists the 2016 cross finals as a premier event despite no one actually taking it as more than a showmatch. About half the HSC events are "premier" and half are "major".
I also think some tournaments are just worth more than others. Starleagues reign supreme. Katowice is worth more than smaller weekenders etc. And even then you can get into ranking which runs are better than others.
As far as Serral winning WCS events goes, they're irrelevent when comparing him to the all time great streaks. Mvp, INno, Maru, Zest etc in their primes would have smashed tournaments had they gone up against the same level of competition.
I don't see how it's unfair to exclude events that featured no (or very weak) competition. I'd argue that none of Serral's WCS wins had him beat even a single top 10 player. Neeb had a 15% winrate vs koreans in 2017 and still came damn close to winning 4/4 WCS events.
Serral since the start of 2018 has played 8 big tournaments that featured at some some of the best in the world. And won 3 of them. I think it's fair to compare that to the others I listed, all of whom had similar streaks over the same number of events
Did all of these players managed to go to the semi except for one time ? Because regularity is a feat too if you're not aware. And HSC is excluded because it has weak competition ? Good to know Stats, soO, Solar, TY, Innovation are that bads. Same for the "in their prime" shit, is Maru's victories more meaningful than Serral then? After all, his major success came in this weaker area. Anwyay, it's really funny how you and others manage to always exactly know the skill level of each player at any freaking time, it's actually amazing as if you're operating at the top of each ladder. Btw, it seems really bold and really crazy to think Maru would have won 4 times in a row the wcs considering how he performs without prep.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
He’s not must see SC. I don’t watch his ZvZs and his WCS games vs Terran and Protoss players that he completely outclasses.
Also, the conversation probably will not be revisited except by his fanboys.
Look at sOs for example. His overall level of success in the biggest tournaments was absurd. Made deep runs or outright won in almost everything. The man won two Blizzcons. Serial would be lucky to reach that level of decoration (especially without participating in code s). And yet sOs bonjwa is never a conversation. Neither is whether rogue is a bonjwa.
I feel like anyone who thinks serral is the GOAT or is the first bonjwa (as in he’s doing something unprecedented at the moment ) has only started closely following sc2 in 2018.
Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
On August 25 2019 08:37 terribleplayer1 wrote: Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
In terms of titles and tournament results, sOs resume blows serrals out of the water. There’s no way to argue otherwise.
If you want to dissect a 1 year peak then you can look no further than Maru and his unmatched Code s streak.
Serral is incredible but he is not the GOAT by either metric
If he can win another blizzcon he’ll at least be closer to sOs level
On August 25 2019 08:37 terribleplayer1 wrote: Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
Depends if you include HSC or not. If you don't, his winrate is 64.58% which is lower than Innovation's 68.78%. Even if you include HSC (which didn't have as stiff competition as his other wins so that's why I made the distinction), it's 67.86%, which is still lower. Inno probably had easier competition but "much, much easier is exaggeration" since after GSL ro32, his opponents become pretty similar in strength to Serral's opponents. I think even if you removed Inno's weaker Korean opponents (but then you should compare his new winrate to Serral's 2018 winrate without HSC for sake of fairness), his winrate would still be like mid 60% but that's just speculation. Also, keep in mind Serral rarely fought Korean terran in 2018 and kept the win-rate over only a third as many games. I think Serral's winrate in 2018 is still a more impressive feat than Inno's despite all of those considerations, but by a pretty narrow margin.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited.
Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point.
Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully.
Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation.
I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too.
I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT.
Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa.
If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa
Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW
Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them)
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping.
What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia.
Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc
And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well.
Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics.
Liquipedia seems really inconistant on what counts as a premier events to begin with so you kinda just have to make up your own metric. It lists the 2016 cross finals as a premier event despite no one actually taking it as more than a showmatch. About half the HSC events are "premier" and half are "major".
I also think some tournaments are just worth more than others. Starleagues reign supreme. Katowice is worth more than smaller weekenders etc. And even then you can get into ranking which runs are better than others.
As far as Serral winning WCS events goes, they're irrelevent when comparing him to the all time great streaks. Mvp, INno, Maru, Zest etc in their primes would have smashed tournaments had they gone up against the same level of competition.
I don't see how it's unfair to exclude events that featured no (or very weak) competition. I'd argue that none of Serral's WCS wins had him beat even a single top 10 player. Neeb had a 15% winrate vs koreans in 2017 and still came damn close to winning 4/4 WCS events.
Serral since the start of 2018 has played 8 big tournaments that featured at some some of the best in the world. And won 3 of them. I think it's fair to compare that to the others I listed, all of whom had similar streaks over the same number of events
Did all of these players managed to go to the semi except for one time ? Because regularity is a feat too if you're not aware. And HSC is excluded because it has weak competition ? Good to know Stats, soO, Solar, TY, Innovation are that bads. Same for the "in their prime" shit, is Maru's victories more meaningful than Serral then? After all, his major success came in this weaker area. Anwyay, it's really funny how you and others manage to always exactly know the skill level of each player at any freaking time, it's actually amazing as if you're operating at the top of each ladder. Btw, it seems really bold and really crazy to think Maru would have won 4 times in a row the wcs considering how he performs without prep.
If you mean Maru plays WCS with Serral, Maru would probably run into Serral in multiple of them and win and lose some of their matches. So, in that case, I agree Maru wouldn't win 4 in a row. However, that is not really fair because Serral did not have to meet a top 3 player like Maru at all to win his 4 WCS so Maru should not be expected to do the same either. So if we allow that Maru plays WCS without Serral, I honestly don't see anyone from WCS beating Maru (did you watch Maru vs Reynor at WCG), maybe except for Special. So he'd probably win at least 3 out 4 of the WCS, if you ask me.
I don't think he would likely win 4 out of 4 like some others though because even Serral shouldn't be expected to win 4 out of 4 WCS (he could've lost to many zerg along the way) and this year, he only won 1/3 WCS tournaments he was in. That said, it's worth noting Reynor is basically Serral's equal in ZvZ (maybe not anymore after today lol) while I can't see any WCS player giving Maru serious trouble as Reynor has for Serral.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
On August 25 2019 08:37 terribleplayer1 wrote: Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
In terms of titles and tournament results, sOs resume blows serrals out of the water. There’s no way to argue otherwise.
If you want to dissect a 1 year peak then you can look no further than Maru and his unmatched Code s streak.
Serral is incredible but he is not the GOAT by either metric
If he can win another blizzcon he’ll at least be closer to sOs level
GOAT is about career achievement, Bonjwa is about utter dominance in a certain period.
sOs surely is one of the greats, but when were you dreaming when you wrote the part about him making deep runs in every tournament? He didn't do that, and he wasn't especially dominant as well, he "just" performed incredibly right in time to win the biggest tournaments.
If Serral wins another BlizzCon he'll be way ahead of sOs.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017. There is no reason not to include HSC in any of case.
Also, as you were previously saying, the way you perceive Serral's greatness is deeply influenced by how much you rate WCS; thinking it is worth nothing, like certain ones have been doing for years(I hope those people enjoyed Elazer vs Serral, because they would deserve to see this kind of finals many more times), makes it impossible to have a discussion. There is no way a middle ground could be found when opinions are so radically different; I'm surprised people aren't bored of writing always the same things, in vain.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
Inflation doesnt matter, you can do the same with ranking rather than rating, that doesn't inflate, Serral's average opposition is much better.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017. There is no reason not to include HSC in any of case.
Also, as you were previously saying, the way you perceive Serral's greatness is deeply influenced by how much you rate WCS; thinking it is worth nothing, like certain ones have been doing for years(I hope those people enjoyed Elazer vs Serral, because they would deserve to see this kind of finals many more times), makes it impossible to have a discussion. There is no way a middle ground could be found when opinions are so radically different; I'm surprised people aren't bored of writing always the same things, in vain.
The funny thing is terribleplayer1 was the one who took only 9 months into consideration. I looked at the year as a whole for Inno and Serral to make sure I wouldn't be intentionally cherry-picking dates. I'm not saying terribleplayer1 did do that at all, for clarififcation, but it was not me who wanted to "take only nine months in consideration."
I think people are misunderstanding why I brought up HSC. This is my fault since it wasn't clear why I brought it up until I wrote "but then you should compare his new winrate to Serral's 2018 winrate without HSC for sake of fairness" a few sentences later. Also, I should not have compared Serral's adjusted winrate to Inno's non-adjusted winrate. It's not a fair comparison to make.
So I want to say of course I think HSC should be included in Serral's offline Korean winrate. To repeat my point from earlier, if you want to look at each players winrate against top opposition (by that I mean like top 10-20) then you should remove Inno's games against Losira, etc but you should also remove the HSC games too (maybe include Serral versus Innovation but that would only worsen Serral's winrate). That's the main reason why I brought up the distinction in the first place.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Of course it’d be lower, Aligulac ratings inflate over time, and foreigners ranking inflate as well.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
Just checked it again. You're wrong, he won 18 series in a row and that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can't compare his winrate across 18 games to the winrates of koreans over 50+ games.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
Just checked it again. You're wrong, he won 18 series in a row and that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can't compare his winrate across 18 games to the winrates of koreans over 50+ games.
Is a big sample that includes games against very low koreans better than a low sample against very strong koreans? Form is hard to keep in Sc2, if you take into consideration similar amount of games it's harder to mantain a high win ratio for a considerably higher amount of time(20 months over 9 months in the original discussion).
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
Just checked it again. You're wrong, he won 18 series in a row and that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can't compare his winrate across 18 games to the winrates of koreans over 50+ games.
Is a big sample that includes games against very low koreans better than a low sample against very strong koreans? Form is hard to keep in Sc2, if you take into consideration similar amount of games it's harder to mantain a high win ratio for a considerably higher amount of time(20 months over 9 months in the original discussion).
Considering we're talking about dominance here and not consistency winning 18 series in a row in 1 month would definitely be more impressive than winning 18 series in a row in 9 months. If we're talking consistency it's impossible to compare him to koreans because no korean faced so few top players over 9 months.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
Just checked it again. You're wrong, he won 18 series in a row and that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can't compare his winrate across 18 games to the winrates of koreans over 50+ games.
Is a big sample that includes games against very low koreans better than a low sample against very strong koreans? Form is hard to keep in Sc2, if you take into consideration similar amount of games it's harder to mantain a high win ratio for a considerably higher amount of time(20 months over 9 months in the original discussion).
Considering we're talking about dominance here and not consistency winning 18 series in a row in 1 month would definitely be more impressive than winning 18 series in a row in 9 months. If we're talking consistency it's impossible to compare him to koreans because no korean faced so few top players over 9 months.
The point is that no one won 18 consecutive series against top koreans, be it in nine or six or two months; also, quality of opponents can't be ignored.
From the beginning of 2018 he's 37-9 (80%) against Koreans. Most of those matches are against multi-championship caliber players. Additionally, this very tournament provides an argument that South Korean players aren't the only "top players" anymore either, as the best Korean zerg and best Korean protoss were both knocked out by non-Serral foreigners and there wasn't even a Korean in the finals. If you take away the Korean opponent filter, from the beginning of 2018 Serral is an absurd 191–23 in series against everyone (including the best and not-so-best World players). It's absolutely absurd to suggest people would ignore such a streak of dominance and consistency if he was Korean - literally nobody has shown such win percentages on the international and Korean scene for that length of time.
On August 26 2019 02:57 Kitai wrote: literally nobody has shown such win percentages on the international and Korean scene for that length of time.
Yeah again, because nobody played so few koreans over this long of a period. Rogue at the end of 2017 had a comparable record vs koreans to Serral over the last 2 years with a similar sample size. (You can check yourself) Speaking of vs foreigners, Dark was 60-0 against foreigners spanning over a period of 5 years. I'd say this is an unprecedended record which nobody comes close to which makes him the most dominant player of all time /s
I checked Serral's winrate against top Korean players (top 15 WCS standings for relevant year) in 2018 (I excluded games against TRUE, Bunny, Taeja, Impact and Trust) and it was 43-23 (65.15% winrate).
For Innovation, I counted that it was 100-58 (63.29%). Note that the amount of games is much higher than Serral. Also, I think Inno was like 7-0 against Ryung (who was #16) offline but in the interest of not cherry picking, I did not include him. I bring this up to show how changing the players included even slightly can have a big impact on INnovation's winrate since he played way more players than Serral. If I just included Ryung, Inno's winrate would be 64.85%.
Edit: Made a small mistake with the counting. Anyway, my point is, their peaks are pretty similar and the idea of "much, much easier opposition" is not really true. Yeah Inno had easier competition on average but even if you only included the top 15 Koreans for both players, his winrate is still very close to Serral's.
Also, I checked Rogue between IEM Shanghai and IEM WC (which is admittedly a biased sample) and his record was 58-27 (68.23%) against top 15 Koreans of the relevant year.
On August 26 2019 02:57 Kitai wrote: From the beginning of 2018 he's 37-9 (80%) against Koreans. Most of those matches are against multi-championship caliber players. Additionally, this very tournament provides an argument that South Korean players aren't the only "top players" anymore either, as the best Korean zerg and best Korean protoss were both knocked out by non-Serral foreigners and there wasn't even a Korean in the finals. If you take away the Korean opponent filter, from the beginning of 2018 Serral is an absurd 191–23 in series against everyone (including the best and not-so-best World players). It's absolutely absurd to suggest people would ignore such a streak of dominance and consistency if he was Korean - literally nobody has shown such win percentages on the international and Korean scene for that length of time.
Thats it. If it were a Korean with the same percentage of wins against the same koreans Serral plaeyd, i bet ppl would be considering him for bonjwa...
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
Dude he played 17 games against Koreans at just Blizzcon alone.
Because innovation 2017's has way more than "just ryung" as lower tier opponent.
Again, I still fail to understand why you are using online games again. I already said taking Rogue's peak was biased sampling. if I took the best 8-9 months for Serral or Inno they'd certainly have even higher winrates than they already do. At the same time, Rogue improved a ton in mid-2017 so it also wouldn't be totally fair to judge his peak by only looking at 2017 (where he lost GSL Season 1 ro32 to Bunny and Keen). I know Serral and INnoVation were stronger later in the year too but they were still doing really well at the beginning of the year so I felt it was fair to look at the entire year in their case. Even though looking at one year from start to finish is fair in the sense that it doesn't feel as arbitrary, it can be less fair to someone like Rogue, who mainly did well for the latter half one year and first half of the next. For INnoVation, I used December 2016 to December 2017. For Serral, I looked at December 2017 to December 2018.
Why wouldnt you include HSC? When you're including Innovation vs KNife/Creator/prince/golden etc..
Innovation has like 12 wins over Losira alone in this period, if you were to see Innovation's opponents aligulac median aligulac rating it'd be much lower than Serral's. Yes MUCH lower.
Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
Dude he played 17 games against Koreans at just Blizzcon alone.
not only that, Serral's opponents are generally stronger than most other korean players face as he is often facing them only in the later stages of the tournament, skipping qualifiers etc. Its really not his fault other players have to go through qualifiers, loser brackets and multiple tournaments to get a change to lose to him. This being said, Rogue did have a great streak in 2017! Would love to see comprehensive and conclusive statistics from that streak from Mr. Charoisaur, that would include period of data sample, rank of the opponent at the time the game happened and overall win/loss ratio.
How can people compare Rogue’s run to Serral’s is incomprehensible to me. Rogue’s hype train ended before it even started for real. It was way closer to a typical patch zerg run than a bonjwa. Rouge did not maintain his top form for long enough, he should not even be considered in this discussion...
On August 26 2019 05:56 Anc13nt wrote: I checked Serral's winrate against top Korean players (top 15 WCS standings for relevant year) in 2018 (I excluded games against TRUE, Bunny, Taeja, Impact and Trust) and it was 43-23 (65.15% winrate).
For Innovation, I counted that it was 100-58 (63.29%). Note that the amount of games is much higher than Serral. Also, I think Inno was like 7-0 against Ryung (who was #16) offline but in the interest of not cherry picking, I did not include him. I bring this up to show how changing the players included even slightly can have a big impact on INnovation's winrate since he played way more players than Serral. If I just included Ryung, Inno's winrate would be 64.85%.
Edit: Made a small mistake with the counting. Anyway, my point is, their peaks are pretty similar and the idea of "much, much easier opposition" is not really true. Yeah Inno had easier competition on average but even if you only included the top 15 Koreans for both players, his winrate is still very close to Serral's.
Also, I checked Rogue between IEM Shanghai and IEM WC (which is admittedly a biased sample) and his record was 58-27 (68.23%) against top 15 Koreans of the relevant year.
Thanks for doing all this research. very insightful.
:-) Well it's clear that foreigners are catching up even if they didn't overtake Koreans yet. But they probably will soon. The stigma around games is crumbling in the west and the pool of players (in many esports) is getting larger. Serral, Elazer, Special and Neeb is just paving the way. There will always be top Koreans but their dominance will soon be of legend. The fact that the world champion (you know, winner of the world championship) is a foreigner speaks a lot, and this tournament pivots the sentiment even more. Not tomorrow or next year. But it's coming.