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On August 20 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 20:39 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene, it's not like you were going to recognize Serral's greatness in any of case. What about Maru, then, his next victories won't have any impact? I see now what "double standards" really are  Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague 
Uh, a direct answer, I wasn't expecting this.
Serral would definitely need a second World Championship to enter the GOAT discussion, or a Code S(if he's ever playing it); koreans unsurprisingly play themselves more often, but Serral racks up a decent amount of game against almost exclusively top koreans, the average quality of his opponents is higher.
While team leagues certainly had some relevance in Sc2, they aren't nearly as integral as they were in BW; there is Nation Wars for Serral to win, it would be a noteworthy feat considering Finland has a weak lineup(Zhugeliang is barely top 100 on Aligulac, Fuzer and TheMusZero are below top 200). Serral currently is 23-11 in the competition(he played in the last three editions) and performed two all-kills; not bad, overall.
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On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
lol you and your broken logic again, this is hilarious.
In a very unlikely scenario if Serral wins everything from now on (we know its impossible) and is still not called GOAT (very possible), then no one before him should be called GOAT, because of the definition of "all-time". See how easy it is to do 2+2?
I dont think Serral should be called GOAT. I also don't think anyone else should be called that for many similar or different reasons. However the fact is, for example, is that in the last 1.5 years Serral's match win/loss ratio vs top tier koreans is either higher or on par with the very best korean players. That's a good stat to use as a discussion point.
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On August 20 2019 21:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 20:39 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Post Kespa's BW scene really isn't comparable with current Sc2 scene Because...? Both scenes didn't have new blood in ages and has mostly players between 25-30 years. Neither scene has teamhouses or a serious teamleague anymore.
Sc2's pro scene was never abandoned, with its total prizes actually rising back to WoL level these last years; the players are still paid to compete, there are still teams and the most prestigious competitions in the game are still being held.
There is no professionalism in Brood War anymore; the game resurrected in the last three but there was an intercourse in which top players were essentially lacking entirely.
You can't help but thinking korean scene is the only relevant one in Sc2, but that's not true; WCS is on the rise, its top players are in the early 20s and there are even younger promising players, along with older veterans.
What you say is kind of true for GSL, where there still is a single proleague and whose top players are still in good shape, despite the absence of new blood that could replace them.
The difference between current SC2's and BW's scenes exists, and it is crystal clear; also, isn't it weird that you weren't making this kind of argument as long as your favourite koreans were doing well and now that foreigners have had their strongest showing to date in one international tournament, Sc2's future is actually irrelevant?
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Can anyone tell me Serrals winrate against top koreans since 2018??
And compare it to the top the so called Goat contenders (one their best couple of years)??
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On August 20 2019 23:27 Locutos wrote:
Can anyone tell me Serrals winrate against top koreans since 2018??
And compare it to the so called Goat contenders (one their best couple of years)??
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another thread where a bunch of people have meltdowns about the fact that everyone is allowed to have their own definition of "greatest player" and there is absolutely no objective algorithm making anyone right or wrong
the way people debate when they can't just appeal to authority is some schoolyard shit
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To be honest, Serral is good but Infestors are too op
Maybe we can call them winfestors lol
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On August 20 2019 23:27 Locutos wrote:
Can anyone tell me Serrals winrate against top koreans since 2018??
And compare it to the top the so called Goat contenders (one their best couple of years)??
Not since a specific date, I was a bit lazy in implementing interface options, but you can see the best players by winrate against Koreans for each year here:
http://sc2resource.com/winrateskorea
He's catching up in 2019, and in 2018 he was way above and beyond.
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On August 21 2019 00:29 Carlcx wrote:
To be honest, Serral is good but Infestors are too op
Maybe we can call them winfestors lol
Nice joke, no one’s ever come up with that before.
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On August 21 2019 01:35 bagstone wrote:Not since a specific date, I was a bit lazy in implementing interface options, but you can see the best players by winrate against Koreans for each year here: http://sc2resource.com/winrateskoreaHe's catching up in 2019, and in 2018 he was way above and beyond.
Just wanted to say that this is a super cool site.
Serral has only played 19 matches against Koreans in 2019 according to this list, but he ranks third in terms of win%. It's also interesting to note that his average opponent rank is significantly higher than everyone else in the top ten, which means he fought tougher opponents. This makes sense because most of the GSL ro32 players don't (get to) play in the combined tournaments like HSC, IEM, WESG, Blizzcon or GSL vs the World.
I took a look back on stats from the earlier years too. Inno consistently shows up in the top five over large sample sizes since 2013, which lends credibility to the TL community greatest player vote.
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Yeah, infestors seem too op, but Serral doesn't need unbalanced units to take it all, he's just one move ahead than anybody else. Oh, my, the way he outplayed TY in those late games... it was beautiful and painful in the same time to watch. What about vipers? He is a true magician with them rather everybody talks about infestors. Once again Serral plays the way Dark played in his best times and even now Dark is not in top form no matter he got Code S.
Honestly many players did not play well in this tournament, I expect much serious attitude to Blizzcon grand finals. It's not because we watched non-korean final for a first time in Korea, but Stats, Dark, TY, Maru... soO didn't play even as a Code S player at all...
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On August 20 2019 13:28 nimdil wrote:
Good luck writing next power ranking
Lol I was thinking exactly this. Not only are they going to be forced to finally put Serral #1, but other top players were upset pretty heavily in this tournament. That being said a couple of those upsets were in PvP (Neeb vs Stats) and ZvZ (Elazer vs Dark) where I feel like those were the matchups the underdogs had the best chance to win in, since both of them are best at the mirror matchup.
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On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on.
Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys.
Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene
Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
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Serral may not be the GOAT yet but he's well on his way to the top. He just needs to prove himself in a proper GSL or two, another World Championship wouldn't hurt either
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On August 21 2019 01:55 FuRong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 01:35 bagstone wrote:Not since a specific date, I was a bit lazy in implementing interface options, but you can see the best players by winrate against Koreans for each year here: http://sc2resource.com/winrateskoreaHe's catching up in 2019, and in 2018 he was way above and beyond. Just wanted to say that this is a super cool site. Serral has only played 19 matches against Koreans in 2019 according to this list, but he ranks third in terms of win%. It's also interesting to note that his average opponent rank is significantly higher than everyone else in the top ten, which means he fought tougher opponents. This makes sense because most of the GSL ro32 players don't (get to) play in the combined tournaments like HSC, IEM, WESG, Blizzcon or GSL vs the World. I took a look back on stats from the earlier years too. Inno consistently shows up in the top five over large sample sizes since 2013, which lends credibility to the TL community greatest player vote.
Yeah vs Koreans, serral was 24/28 (85.7 % win) in 2018
and then in 2019 he is 13/19 with a 68.4 win percent
nobody is even close in avg opp rank (SOS at 60% (27/46) has an avg rank vs of 23 but that's the best. everybody else has a lower percent. Neeb for example is 5/17 (29.4% ) this year and Maru has a 60.4 win percent (29/488) but his avg op rank is 25!
This year dark has the best win percent 75% (28/37) with an avg op rank of 28
so it seems serral has korean top tier level win percent vs players on avg twice as good?! crazy..
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On August 20 2019 23:27 Locutos wrote:
Can anyone tell me Serrals winrate against top koreans since 2018??
And compare it to the top the so called Goat contenders (one their best couple of years)??
It's like around 66% I think? I think only Mvp, Innovation, Rogue and sOs had similar winrates in their best years but I didn't check for every player.
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Korean scene has long been on the decline. There really hasn't been new players. Looking at the GSL roster for the 2 years should show that. Is Serral impressive for what is doing? Perhaps, but he is also competing against much older and smaller pool of players past their prime
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On August 20 2019 18:40 Gomas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 09:40 11cc wrote:On August 20 2019 07:31 Gomas wrote:On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote:
The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid. The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better. I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't. Your approach make sports meaningless. Chess players aren't skilled at all. Magnus Carlsen is a noob, because if chess was big business like football, he would be just one of many geniuses. If you take into account the speculative skill of all living people on the planet if they had the "dedication, desire and discipline" for 8 years, all sports are just losers playing against losers. I read your post a couple of times but I don't understand what you mean, could you rephrase please? My approach makes sports meaningless? I was saying football and chess players are VERY skilled, even though the two have rather simple rules. You could play both in a park, with a stranger, after 30 seconds of preparation.Thats not meaningless. I'm just saying that the competitiveness (possession of a strong desire to be more successful than others.) of today's Starcraft is much lower than that of 2010-2011. Back then we had prohouses; maybe thousands of people dedicating their lives to getting better. I was one of them. But today it seems like we have maybe 10-20 people with this drive, half of which became bored, frustrated, content over the last couple of months. There are people in the top30 of current global rankings MMR who are non-fulltime, casters, or whatever. The deceasing number of tournaments, fame, prizes adds to this. Casting, streaming, became equally rewarding in terms of fame. I mean, look at the IdrA fanclub for example, theres like a thousand pages of posts over a span of a year or two, just on one players fanclub. Players like Huk, Naniwa, Marineking, all have 500-1000 pages on their fanclubs, I think Serral has like 30. The drive, fame, was off the charts at that time. Nowhere near where it is now.
Sure, I'll make my point as simple as I can: the best soccer players can make $100M or more. That is much more than someone could hope to get paid playing chess. So why would you say chess players are high skilled? If same money would be in chess as it is in football, then I can only assume that the current top chess players would be replaced by better players because of more competition.
And this kind of cold calculative approach in my opinion makes following sports meaningless, because it's all about the money.
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Poland3748 Posts
To be great in chess you have to start as a kid. None of the football players would make a life as chess players. There's not really a more rewarding $$ career for potential top tier chess players than being chess player. Of course academic might be safer if you don't get to the very top but most of the kids who can't make it to the very top in chess can be filtered out.
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France12770 Posts
On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru won across several patches and they weren’t broken, they were quite bad / coinflippy if you played the game.
He mastered it against some protosses but sOs exposed the strategy.
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EPT
