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On August 20 2019 00:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote:
How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters. No starleague victory to start it, just one WC title. Rogue has 2 WC titles, Mvp, Maru and Innovation have more starleague titles. To just name few things. Edit> Also Serral's here for just a year. Maru is consistently the top Terran for years(you do realize he won his first starleague in HotS), same applies for Innovation. Stats has been a top Protoss for ages too, Classic was there too etc. Serral won 3 Tournaments with any Korean representation(GSL vs TW twice, Blizzcon), he didn't win IEM(twice), ROG. That's not a domination of GOAT, he didn't win anything great in a row, did he? Unless he starts playing in Korea or Koreans gave up totally so WCS is more meaningful, well,... 
So HSC doesnt count ? Twice ? Or that he kinda only lost to eventual winners, where he didnt win and usually by 1 map ? He has been consistent favourite to win every tournament he enters for almost two years now. And doesnt that work other way around too ? He has been dominant in almost every tournament, although there have been these long time monsters like Maru, Stats, Classic, Innovation, Rogue etc. involved.
Even no Korean wants to face him anymore, well maybe except Dark, but thats more about ego than anything else. Even Koreans say he is the best player in the world. Seriously, who wants to play a solid macro game head to head against Serral ? Few European zergs can do that, after playing against him like 3 years and know his playstyle inside out. Even then they dont stand a chance when he plays his a-game. In this tournament I think Serrals gameplay was like B+ maybe A- to his standards and still he was unstoppable. Honestly, who has shown such dominance ever in Starcraft 2 ?
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On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote:
How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters.
It takes some incredible delusion to think serral is a goat contender at this moment, not that i am surprised but maybe people should actually look at career results of different players before making these asinine claims :/
And even if we only care about this "dominance", there are quite obvious objections.
I'll put it into numbers for you, serral won 3/9 premier tournaments where koreans were allowed to play at since the beginning of 2018. He actually played before that but people say that doesn't count so whatever. That's impressive, but one would think he won them all if one listened to some people on TL.
edit: i missed the hsc because it isn't on liquipedia's timeline, my bad. Though it could be argued that hsc shouldn't ever be considered, but whatever.
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awesome tourney, everyone involved delivered, gratz !!!
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On August 20 2019 01:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote:
How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters. It takes some incredible delusion to think serral is a goat contender at this moment, not that i am surprised but maybe people should actually look at career results of different players before making these asinine claims :/ And even if we only care about this "dominance", there are quite obvious objections. I'll put it into numbers for you, serral won 3/9 premier tournaments where koreans were allowed to play at since the beginning of 2018. He actually played before that but people say that doesn't count so whatever. That's impressive, but one would think he won them all if one listened to some people on TL.
You'd better say Serral won 4/7 Premier tournaments with koreans(not including HSC XIX, which is a Major unlike HSC XVIII) in the last twelve months, or 3/3 in three months when he was at his apex; no ignorant neophite would think Serral won all the tournaments he played since the beginning of 2018 to August 2019, if could properly read what others write.
Serral played before, but that would be like obstinately insisting on focusing on Maru's career in 2010-2012; he was a player of one entirely different caliber, what's the point?
Yes, Serral is not a GOAT contender yet but he's way better than the #18 you guys condemned him tho very recently;
saying that he could be GOAT is inappropriate just as much as the dozen of comments pointing towards the opposite direction, and I have seen many. Delusion is everywhere, it seems
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Nevermind the upsets etc, the actual games were usually pretty fun/exciting to watch, and THAT PRODUCTION QUALITY was off the charts :D!
GSL really made an awesome show!
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Not a Goat contender but Serral’s consistency over the last two years is ridiculous. Most of the great players in history go through wild periods of inconsistency with huge downswings but it’s a surprise and people are questioning Serral’s form when he loses in the semis of a strong tournament. Comfortably the best player.
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On August 20 2019 01:02 Mun_Su wrote:
Tournament was not really exciting
and you came here just to write this, congratz bud....
anyway soO vs TIME game 2 was one the best games I've ever watched, highly recommended
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On August 20 2019 00:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 00:31 Incognoto wrote:
How is Serral not number one right now? He's arguably been so for more than a year. And a true contender to GOAT. I'm a die hard Maru fan but I'm sorry, Serral takes it here. He wins most of what he enters. No starleague victory to start it, just one WC title. Rogue has 2 WC titles, Mvp, Maru and Innovation have more starleague titles. To just name few things. Edit> Also Serral's here for just a year. Maru is consistently the top Terran for years(you do realize he won his first starleague in HotS), same applies for Innovation. Stats has been a top Protoss for ages too, Classic was there too etc. Serral won 3 Tournaments with any Korean representation(GSL vs TW twice, Blizzcon), he didn't win IEM(twice), ROG. That's not a domination of GOAT, he didn't win anything great in a row, did he? Unless he starts playing in Korea or Koreans gave up totally so WCS is more meaningful, well,...
Rogue won 2... And still chokes everytime someone whispers Serral in his ear. Also you say Maru has been Top terran for years. Serral has been top zerg for 2 years now. And you say he didnt win anything great in a row... What is Gsl vs the World then?? For the past 2 years, the premiers he didnt win, he lost by one map only (except for one IEM). Can u say the same for Maru or Rogue.
Just compare the premier events they didnt win... You can see that Serral stompa everyone in the past 2 years. And now add the ones they won. He stomps evwn more.
Nuff said.
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Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
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On August 20 2019 02:33 Locutos wrote:
Rogue won 2... And still chokes everytime someone whispers Serral in his ear
When there is not enough meat in your claims and you need to fill it with false epic-ness
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On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
We always come back to the same, if you value WCS circuit champsionships as the same level as the rest since they are region locked or not....
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On August 19 2019 14:28 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 13:46 imCHIEN wrote:
Serral bonjwa. This guy is actually SC2's Flash Both continued to succeed after Blizzard killed the respective Korean scene, so that part is true. PS: Flash was never bonjwa.
Finally someone who speaks the truth. Flash was never bonjwa he won when sc was a dead game. Same Maru. Sc died after savior and sc2 after life. Amen
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On August 20 2019 05:08 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins. We always come back to the same, if you value WCS circuit champsionships as the same level as the rest since they are region locked or not....
That's true, but Neemi didn't say anything concerning the value of said tournaments.
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On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins.
Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
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On August 20 2019 05:41 TheAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins. Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
Why would all players suck? Do you actually watch games instead of spouting nonsense?
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On August 20 2019 05:41 TheAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins. Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
I watch SC2 pro scene since 2010. The skill ceiling has never been so high. Players like Serral, Maru, Stats and so on have only gotten better. The barrier is in entrance. There are not enough tourneys and prize money to make a really big pool of talented newcomers, like Reynor. But the ones that remained have never been better. Multi pronged attacks are way more refined. Watch the quality of micro and army management nowadays and compare to the top players of 2012, 2013... MC would miss force fields here and there and still win tourneys. Defense has gotten way better. Harass too...
And still, Serral hooves above them all when it comes to skill.
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On August 20 2019 05:41 TheAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 04:58 Neemi wrote:
Fun fact: Going by Liquipedia, Serral played in 17 premier tournaments since the start of 2018. He won 9, and was knocked out by the eventual winner 7 times (Scarlett at Pyeongchang, Maru & Innovation at WESG, soO at Katowice 2019, Stats at Assembly, Reynor x2 in WCS). The only time he lost to someone else was Classic in the IEM Katowice 2018 semi's, who went on to lose to Rogue in the finals. No wonder the narrative around him is so strong, he either wins or whoever beats him wins. Yes but he plays in an era where all players sucks. so thats not a good narrative.
It's true, StarCraft 2 has just been going downhill since Fruitdealer.
Now some of you may think I'm joking, but I can prove that it's true using objective facts and logic.
If you made a tournament today for modern players using the map pool of Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, etc. no Zerg player could win it. Very likely no Zerg player could even win a single series. But Fruitdealer won one. And other Zerg players managed to take series. This objectively demonstrates that Zerg players in 2010 were capable of performing feats the much weaker Zerg players of today couldn't even hope to emulate.
Now you may be saying "that logic may be completely irrefutable, but it only proves that modern Zergs suck compared to their 2010 counterparts!" And that's correct, but consider this: modern Terrans and Protosses are so bad that they regularly lose to modern Zergs! This very tournament, which had many modern Terrans and Protosses in it, was capped by a mirror match-up between two modern Zergs! So we must rationally conclude that modern Terrans and Protosses suck too.
Quod erat demonstrandum!
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The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
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On August 20 2019 07:01 tigon_ridge wrote:
The game is much more rich and complex than ever before, with greater units variety and more micro-management possibilities/complexity. People who think players of the previous eras were more skilled either don't pay attention to the current game, or are just stupid.
The complexity and richness of a game doesn't mean that the players are skilled. Chess is quite a simple game but you wouldn't say that high level chess players aren't skilled. Same with soccer or something. What makes for skilled players is the competitiveness I'd say. And the competitiveness 7 years ago or something was higher, due to the amount of money, fame, general outlook in the community. More players were trying their hardest to be the best. Sure, their skill at the game was worse because they played 1-2 years, whereas Serral has played the game for 8, so obviously he's better.
I'd say if the best players of 2010-2011 had the dedication, desire and discipline to play as much as the current best players have for the past 8 years, they would be better, but they didn't.
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Geez, when I went on vacation just after the Ro16, this is not at all what I was expecting. 3 Koreans in ro8, 1 in ro4, and 0 in finals - pretty unprecedented, especially when you consider that the only two knockouts at the hands of fellow Koreans happened in the first round.
Serral winning the whole thing, however, came as no surprise.
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EPT
