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Charoisaur
Germany15952 Posts
But guys: here is the real kicker: Maru is not just a Terran in SC2. He is THE Terran Just like Flash in BW is not just a Terran. He is THE Terran. Neither player simply is playing their race; they are defining it. That’s the best description/comparison I can come up with. | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
The fact remains that anyone throwing around the term "bonjwa" has probably zero clue of what its origins are and how they manifest. The fact remains that any "objective" source of information like aligulac are flawed simply due to the forced divide between foreign and Korean scenes. The fact remains that any comparison between the two scenes is therefore forcibly subjective, wherein both parties have seemingly jingoistic beliefs to the other. It's all wasted conversation. It's all ___ BUT ___. Serral did X BUT he didn't do Y. Serral COULD DO X but he chose to do Y. Is GSL the premier tournament in the world? If so, does Serral not play in it because the "inferred" requirements are too stringent? Or does the fact that he does not play in the tournament mean that the stringent requirements guarantee he will never make as much money playing in GSL as he does in the wellfare circuit? One could argue either side. Serral doesn't go to Korean and play GSL because he knows he will have a harder time making money overall - after all, Blizzard made sure that Koreans couldn't take all of the winnings globally, because they are so good! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because he knows he will make LESS money - after all, Blizzard made sure that anyone in Korea has less access to money than the rest of the world! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because his life circumstances don't allow it - imagine relocating to a country just for a videogame where they don't speak your language! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he's a coward! Serral doesn't go to Korea because that scene is dead! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he doesn't have To Be ThE BeSt! etc. You are all spouting hot air past each other, and it's not your fault. Blizzard accurately determined that Korea is more interested in Brood War, the West is more interested in SC2, so they created a system in which the players that were initially forced out of Brood War are now drawn back to it, the players/viewers that were disenfranchised with Koreans now get a "healthy" scene because there are more European players winning games, so on and so forth. We're all being played by the machinations of the dealer. This is all according to plan, YagamiLight.png. Institute a drastic change in how competition works -> wait a few years -> reap benefits of micromanaging a game's scene to suit the Xainons and Serrals, but unfortunately it is evident enough so that the Charoisaurs and Jealoses have enough room to balk at the aforementioned parties because of the long history prior. It's the perfect crime. TLDR: The whole scene is a manufactured good, by design, by Blizzard. | ||
Poopi
France12861 Posts
On August 24 2019 10:47 Xain0n wrote: By looking at WCS standings, you are including tournaments before Serral's peak and you are leaving out HSC XVIII. Despite that, you actually proved my point, which is that Zerg wasn't overpowered in 2018 and that Serral didn't benefit of "Zerg being clearly the best race". The state of Terran has nothing to do with that. Including everyone zerg still leads the race with ~42k points, Protoss ~40k points and Terran ~32k points. They also won the most money in 2018, ahead of Protoss and far ahead of Terran, in spite of Maru wins. Maru made the impossible whereas Serral won the ZvZ. At BlizzCon I knew it was either Rogue or Serral after ro4, Stats didn’t stand a chance. Point is, zergs were doing very well even without Serral, and he benefited from his race becoming very good. Coincidentally his « peak » as you cherrypick it, starts after some patches (after WESG and IEM notably, where he was defeated). | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 24 2019 16:15 Jealous wrote: Every Korean interview outside of "big" personalities like MC, or when Bisu was interviewed about Hwasin, etc. are always very polite, submissive, or cordial at the very least. "My opponent played very well, I thought I was going to lose but I barely won, and I have to thank my fans, my coaches, and my practice partners for all of my success," that sort of deal. The fact remains that anyone throwing around the term "bonjwa" has probably zero clue of what its origins are and how they manifest. The fact remains that any "objective" source of information like aligulac are flawed simply due to the forced divide between foreign and Korean scenes. The fact remains that any comparison between the two scenes is therefore forcibly subjective, wherein both parties have seemingly jingoistic beliefs to the other. It's all wasted conversation. It's all ___ BUT ___. Serral did X BUT he didn't do Y. Serral COULD DO X but he chose to do Y. Is GSL the premier tournament in the world? If so, does Serral not play in it because the "inferred" requirements are too stringent? Or does the fact that he does not play in the tournament mean that the stringent requirements guarantee he will never make as much money playing in GSL as he does in the wellfare circuit? One could argue either side. Serral doesn't go to Korean and play GSL because he knows he will have a harder time making money overall - after all, Blizzard made sure that Koreans couldn't take all of the winnings globally, because they are so good! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because he knows he will make LESS money - after all, Blizzard made sure that anyone in Korea has less access to money than the rest of the world! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because his life circumstances don't allow it - imagine relocating to a country just for a videogame where they don't speak your language! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he's a coward! Serral doesn't go to Korea because that scene is dead! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he doesn't have To Be ThE BeSt! etc. You are all spouting hot air past each other, and it's not your fault. Blizzard accurately determined that Korea is more interested in Brood War, the West is more interested in SC2, so they created a system in which the players that were initially forced out of Brood War are now drawn back to it, the players/viewers that were disenfranchised with Koreans now get a "healthy" scene because there are more European players winning games, so on and so forth. We're all being played by the machinations of the dealer. This is all according to plan, YagamiLight.png. Institute a drastic change in how competition works -> wait a few years -> reap benefits of micromanaging a game's scene to suit the Xainons and Serrals, but unfortunately it is evident enough so that the Charoisaurs and Jealoses have enough room to balk at the aforementioned parties because of the long history prior. It's the perfect crime. TLDR: The whole scene is a manufactured good, by design, by Blizzard. good point. It's pretty much impossible for either side to convince the other because they place emphasis on different things (maybe partly because of bias but also maybe because of legitimate differences in opinion). | ||
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S1ngularity
Canada9 Posts
On August 24 2019 14:04 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru himself said in an interview at GSL vs the World that he was not anywhere near as good as Serral. In a previous GSL Code S interview this year he also stated that Serral’s dominance in 2018 was the most impressive thing he’d ever witnessed in SC2. Except Maru never said any of that. He said it was impressive that a foreigner was finding this much success, and then he added that he probably would've won Blizzcon if he hadn't lost to sOs. In GSL vs. the World, he said that if he played in WCS, he would win everything. He even said he wanted to play Serral. None of that implies that he thinks Serral is the best player. | ||
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Poopi
France12861 Posts
On August 24 2019 17:53 S1ngularity wrote: Except Maru never said any of that. He said it was impressive that a foreigner was finding this much success, and then he added that he probably would've won Blizzcon if he hadn't lost to sOs. In GSL vs. the World, he said that if he played in WCS, he would win everything. He even said he wanted to play Serral. None of that implies that he thinks Serral is the best player. I think Maru is more scared of the top protoss than Serral as of now. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 24 2019 16:30 Poopi wrote: Including everyone zerg still leads the race with ~42k points, Protoss ~40k points and Terran ~32k points. They also won the most money in 2018, ahead of Protoss and far ahead of Terran, in spite of Maru wins. Maru made the impossible whereas Serral won the ZvZ. At BlizzCon I knew it was either Rogue or Serral after ro4, Stats didn’t stand a chance. Point is, zergs were doing very well even without Serral, and he benefited from his race becoming very good. Coincidentally his « peak » as you cherrypick it, starts after some patches (after WESG and IEM notably, where he was defeated). If you add Serral, it's 42.8 k for Zerg and over 42k for Protoss, a slight difference. But again, you are missing the mark: you brought Maru into this discussion and he's not the point(also, "impossible"? Rofl, Terran emerge as weakest race but balance wasn't really that bad. TY would have probably won Code S S3). I'll repeat it:including the whole 2018 is someway misleading. Serral peaked after the patch in May(but still won HSC in another patch) and that's not something I am cherrypicking: just compare Serral's titles, win ratio, streak before and after Nation Wars. Coincidentally, Zerg players other than Serral were doing better before that patch: 2 titles and 2 finals out of 6 Premier tournaments compared to 1 title granted by Montreal's single ZvZ final in the whole year and 3 other final appearances(Austin, GSL vs the World and BlizzCon) out of 9 Premier tournaments; also, Stats could have easily beat Rogue at BlizzCon. Serral ascended to a class of his own in 2018 and that's why he won, Zerg was a balanced race that definitely didn't improve at the same time he did(if anything, they were getting slightly worse results) so this tale that Serral "benefitted from his race becoming very good" is indeed very false. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On August 24 2019 16:15 Jealous wrote: Every Korean interview outside of "big" personalities like MC, or when Bisu was interviewed about Hwasin, etc. are always very polite, submissive, or cordial at the very least. "My opponent played very well, I thought I was going to lose but I barely won, and I have to thank my fans, my coaches, and my practice partners for all of my success," that sort of deal. The fact remains that anyone throwing around the term "bonjwa" has probably zero clue of what its origins are and how they manifest. The fact remains that any "objective" source of information like aligulac are flawed simply due to the forced divide between foreign and Korean scenes. The fact remains that any comparison between the two scenes is therefore forcibly subjective, wherein both parties have seemingly jingoistic beliefs to the other. It's all wasted conversation. It's all ___ BUT ___. Serral did X BUT he didn't do Y. Serral COULD DO X but he chose to do Y. Is GSL the premier tournament in the world? If so, does Serral not play in it because the "inferred" requirements are too stringent? Or does the fact that he does not play in the tournament mean that the stringent requirements guarantee he will never make as much money playing in GSL as he does in the wellfare circuit? One could argue either side. Serral doesn't go to Korean and play GSL because he knows he will have a harder time making money overall - after all, Blizzard made sure that Koreans couldn't take all of the winnings globally, because they are so good! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because he knows he will make LESS money - after all, Blizzard made sure that anyone in Korea has less access to money than the rest of the world! Serral doesn't go to Korea and play GSL because his life circumstances don't allow it - imagine relocating to a country just for a videogame where they don't speak your language! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he's a coward! Serral doesn't go to Korea because that scene is dead! Serral doesn't go to Korea because he doesn't have To Be ThE BeSt! etc. You are all spouting hot air past each other, and it's not your fault. Blizzard accurately determined that Korea is more interested in Brood War, the West is more interested in SC2, so they created a system in which the players that were initially forced out of Brood War are now drawn back to it, the players/viewers that were disenfranchised with Koreans now get a "healthy" scene because there are more European players winning games, so on and so forth. We're all being played by the machinations of the dealer. This is all according to plan, YagamiLight.png. Institute a drastic change in how competition works -> wait a few years -> reap benefits of micromanaging a game's scene to suit the Xainons and Serrals, but unfortunately it is evident enough so that the Charoisaurs and Jealoses have enough room to balk at the aforementioned parties because of the long history prior. It's the perfect crime. TLDR: The whole scene is a manufactured good, by design, by Blizzard. Elite koreans have said that serral is the strongest player in the world outside of formal interviews (like at the last HSC where stats, solar, zest said that serral was the strongest and TY, off the record, straight up said that serral was the guy he didnt want to play) I agree, Serral is nothing like a BW bonjwa. | ||
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StarcraftSquall
United States196 Posts
I agree, Serral is nothing like a BW bonjwa. Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited. Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point. Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully. Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
On August 24 2019 23:45 StarcraftSquall wrote: Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited. Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point. Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully. Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing. I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation. I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too. I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT. | ||
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Majick
416 Posts
On August 25 2019 03:31 BisuDagger wrote: I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation. I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too. I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT. Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL. Bonjwa should be about win rate and showing dominance over longer period. Just look at Serral's winrate at the highest level of play since 2017. He won almost every tournament he entered or went very deep in it. He cannot be named GOAT yet because there are players much more accomplished than him. Maybe if he takes another Blizzcon or GSL we can call him GOAT, but you simply can't deny bonjwa status, how dare you... PS: I'm not Serral's fanboy really, but come on just give him the respect that he obviously earned already. In SC2, there was no other player that consistent and dominant for such a long period. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 25 2019 04:05 Majick wrote: Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL. This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa. If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them) Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas. INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders. | ||
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Majick
416 Posts
On August 25 2019 04:33 Fango wrote: This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa. If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them) Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas. INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders. You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 25 2019 04:47 Majick wrote: You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping. What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia. Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On August 25 2019 04:57 Fango wrote: What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia. Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well. Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. If you take elite players as a condition (I guess you mean top Koreans), you should add the 2 HSCs he won vs Innovation and TY. Just my observation, I don't really think there are no elite players in WCS besides Serral. Of course a GSL win is still worth more than a WCS win. | ||
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Jealous
10145 Posts
On August 25 2019 03:31 BisuDagger wrote: I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation. I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too. I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT. Those qualifications were added after the fact. From my perspective and recollection, the single most important criterion for bonjwa status was the consensus of the fans (the Korean community, at the time). The line of bonjwa ended with Savior, as there was never a unanimously dominant figure until Flash rose above the title to be something different - a God. Thus, Serral is not "bonjwa" not only because the term is anachronistic, but also because there isn't a unified consensus about it. That's really all there is to it. | ||
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terribleplayer1
95 Posts
Innovation should also be participating in more tournaments with koreans than you're tracking. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:09 Musicus wrote: Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. If you take elite players as a condition (I guess you mean top Koreans), you should add the 2 HSCs he won vs Innovation and TY. Just my observation, I don't really think there are no elite players in WCS besides Serral. Of course a GSL win is still worth more than a WCS win. What? A logical take on Serral vs Maru? Can such a thing exist?? But in all seriousness, I agree with this outlook the most. You obviously can't weight a GSL and a WCS as the same, but to totally dismiss one because it's less prestigious and has less elite players is a bit silly to me. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:09 Musicus wrote: Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. Liquipedia seems really inconistant on what counts as a premier events to begin with so you kinda just have to make up your own metric. It lists the 2016 cross finals as a premier event despite no one actually taking it as more than a showmatch. About half the HSC events are "premier" and half are "major". I also think some tournaments are just worth more than others. Starleagues reign supreme. Katowice is worth more than smaller weekenders etc. And even then you can get into ranking which runs are better than others. As far as Serral winning WCS events goes, they're irrelevent when comparing him to the all time great streaks. Mvp, INno, Maru, Zest etc in their primes would have smashed tournaments had they gone up against the same level of competition. I don't see how it's unfair to exclude events that featured no (or very weak) competition. I'd argue that none of Serral's WCS wins had him beat even a single top 10 player. Neeb had a 15% winrate vs koreans in 2017 and still came damn close to winning 4/4 WCS events. Serral since the start of 2018 has played 8 big tournaments that featured at some some of the best in the world. And won 3 of them. I think it's fair to compare that to the others I listed, all of whom had similar streaks over the same number of events | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:20 terribleplayer1 wrote: It's hard to go back and backtrack like that I just checked 1 player which was inno, it seems to me you're counting some major's for innovation, but discounting Serral's 2xHSC's. Innovation should also be participating in more tournaments with koreans than you're tracking. Only including big events. From december 2016 to august 2017 INno won IEM Gyeonggi, SSL S1, GSL vs TW, and Code S season 3. I'm pretty sure there were nine big tournaments during that time (3xGSL, SSL, 3xIEM, Super tournament, GSL vs TW) unless I'm forgetting some | ||
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