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On August 23 2019 02:34 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about. if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles
If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
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yes beating mostly master league/low GM players, is equivalent to beating the best foreigners/koreans in 2018/19.
Can people at least try to be objective?
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On August 23 2019 00:23 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? which WESG is this because as far as I can see Neeb and Maru have only played one match against each other in 2019 and Neeb got absolutely BOPPED.
Neeb beat maru in a bo3 at iem 2019
Neeb advanced and maru didn’t.
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On August 23 2019 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 02:34 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about. if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak.
Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway?
That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
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On August 22 2019 20:37 deacon.frost wrote:Serral is a very strong player and he goes towards a big impression but I simply cannot see him as GOAT even in the near future. The dominance wasn't that big in the short term(e.g. Mvp, Maru, Rogue) and he's not here long enough either(e.g. Maru, Inno, Life, Stats, soO). If anything Serral will eventaully take it through the long time as he's not playing in the Code S so he can't get the shortterm domination unless Blizzard pulls the plug too soon. (and unless some of the current GOAT contenders find their long lost mojo  )
Dominance wasnt that big ?? What was his tournament results at the end of 2018 ? 42-0 or something similar ? And he beat every single korean players that he met at that time. In 2019 he hasnt been as dominant, but still winning tournaments and getting at least to top-4 almost in all of them, losing only to winners of those tournaments and only by 1 map. I dont know how much more you can demand since nobody has 100% winrate in long run.......Oh, except Serral in 2018. I dont know if he can be called GOAT yet, but at least it can be speculated and that already is a lot. And what goes to Code-S.....it starts to already be near the level of WCS nowadays so its not a big deal anymore. And do you guys really think he would bust out in ro32 or ro16 or something ? Maybe if the group happened to be Raynor/Stats/Maru/Innovation.......and that means those all would have to play their a-game to make it happen.
And one thing that all korean fans dont seem to recognize:
On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote:
The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
Very well said, I agree 10000%. He is always number 1 in every server he plays. He has had higher MMR than anyone else on ladder for a long time. He wins most tournaments nowadays and has the best winrate. He has been in top4 of the world at least 1,5 years now and arguably being number 1 about a year+. Even every Korean says he is number1, and have been saying that a long time. And in addition, his gameplay is something I havent seen in Starcraft in this whole 9 years, and many others say the same thing too. What Artosis said in the Pylon show is a very valid point: "He comes back and wins games where every other player/zerg is dead.".....and he has done it many, many times. He isnt flawless, he isnt invincible, he isnt perfect........but he is very near being all of that.
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I made this point earlier in the thread but it may have gotten buried in the page turns so I will make it one more time:
Serral either wins the tournament or he is knocked out by the champion of that tournament since his run started in 2018, with one exception.
He had a 50+ match offline win streak vs the best players not only in the WCS but also Koreans as well to boot.
Here are the premier tournaments he’s not won since 2018 began:
IEM Katowice 2018: knocked out by Classic in semis.
WESG 2017: knocked out by Maru in semis.
IEM Katowice 2019: knocked out by soO in Ro8.
WESG 2018: knocked out by INnoVation in Final.
WCS Winter 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final.
WCS Summer 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final.
ASUS ROG: knocked out by Stats in Ro4.
Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
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On August 23 2019 07:48 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On August 23 2019 02:34 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about. if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak. Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest.
I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL.
I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy.
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On August 23 2019 14:55 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I made this point earlier in the thread but it may have gotten buried in the page turns so I will make it one more time:
Serral either wins the tournament or he is knocked out by the champion of that tournament since his run started in 2018, with one exception.
He had a 50+ match offline win streak vs the best players not only in the WCS but also Koreans as well to boot.
Here are the premier tournaments he’s not won since 2018 began:
IEM Katowice 2018: knocked out by Classic in semis.
WESG 2017: knocked out by Maru in semis.
IEM Katowice 2019: knocked out by soO in Ro8.
WCS Winter 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final.
WCS Summer 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final.
ASUS ROG: knocked out by Stats in Ro4.
Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
They will not respond to your posts because they contain facts they cant argue against, they ignore all the posts that ask for quantitative analysis and relevant data sets. So unless you start saying provocative incorrect stuff like "WCS > GSL" your posts will be ignored. At this point the whole world has already moved on except for those two.
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On August 23 2019 16:59 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 14:55 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I made this point earlier in the thread but it may have gotten buried in the page turns so I will make it one more time:
Serral either wins the tournament or he is knocked out by the champion of that tournament since his run started in 2018, with one exception.
He had a 50+ match offline win streak vs the best players not only in the WCS but also Koreans as well to boot.
Here are the premier tournaments he’s not won since 2018 began:
IEM Katowice 2018: knocked out by Classic in semis.
WESG 2017: knocked out by Maru in semis.
IEM Katowice 2019: knocked out by soO in Ro8.
WCS Winter 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final.
WCS Summer 2019: knocked out by Reynor in Final.
ASUS ROG: knocked out by Stats in Ro4.
Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL. They will not respond to your posts because they contain facts they cant argue against, they ignore all the posts that ask for quantitative analysis and relevant data sets. So unless you start saying provocative incorrect stuff like "WCS > GSL" your posts will be ignored. At this point the whole world has already moved on except for those two.
What is there to respond too? I don't see why it matters if the player that beats him happens to win the tournament or not.
I have never seen this argument in any other best player discussion but it seems Serral fanboys are pretty desperate in trying to make their god look as good as possible.
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congratulations to serral, he is good enough to win any opponents. And I am a TIME fan, I think he can do it well in the next Montreal game and go to the Blizzard con.
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On August 23 2019 16:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 07:48 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On August 23 2019 02:34 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about. if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak. Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest. I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy.
I didn't say WCS=Code S either. What's really idiot is completely ignoring WCS, in an era when western players are competitive against koreans(where were you last week?); if you include a non international weekender like Super Tournament into Rogue's streak, there is no reason but your korean elitist bias not to include WCS titles as well.
It's more like that you are cornered and desperate to find arguments that would make Serral look worse than he actually is.
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On August 23 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 16:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 23 2019 07:48 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On August 23 2019 02:34 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about. if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak. Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest. I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy. I didn't say WCS=Code S either. What's really idiot is completely ignoring WCS, in an era when western players are competitive against koreans(where were you last week?); if you include a non international weekender like Super Tournament into Rogue's streak, there is no reason but your korean elitist bias not to include WCS titles as well. It's more like that you are cornered and desperate to find arguments that would make Serral look worse than he actually is.
Your reasoning for Code S not being an international tournament was that people have to stay there for 3+ months. But why is GSL ST not an international tournament despite only requiring you to stay there 1 weekend??
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On August 23 2019 20:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 16:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 23 2019 07:48 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:On August 23 2019 02:34 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about. if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles If we add Serral's WCS titles, we should add ByuNs online wins too, that's 17 tournaments in 2016, I guess you're factually wrong about Serral having the most dominant streak. Man, that's pure comedy. Let me know when your show airs, who's Artosis anyway? That's some Mariano level Olimoleague=WCS, not with the best timing to be honest. I didn't say Olimoleague=WCS, but putting it on the same level is as ridicolous as putting WCS on the same level as GSL. I was purposefully stupid there to match your idiocy. I didn't say WCS=Code S either. What's really idiot is completely ignoring WCS, in an era when western players are competitive against koreans(where were you last week?); if you include a non international weekender like Super Tournament into Rogue's streak, there is no reason but your korean elitist bias not to include WCS titles as well. It's more like that you are cornered and desperate to find arguments that would make Serral look worse than he actually is. Your reasoning for Code S not being an international tournament was that people have to stay there for 3+ months. But why is GSL ST not an international tournament despite only requiring you to stay there 1 weekend??
First of all, we should ignore the fact Super Tournament has offline qualifiers in Korea weeks before the actual tournament so that you are required to stay more than a single weekend.
Super Tournament for sure has less residency requirements than Code S and it might potentially be an international tournament; what it lacks is a relevant participation of WCS players.
ST II 2017, the one Rogue won, actually had TIME in the tournament while Namshar, Elazer, Zerghamdi, Yogo and RushCrazy tried to qualify: 6/56 non koreans in the qualifiers into 1/16 in the final bracket seems too little WCS presence to justify the claim that it was one "international" tournament.
To sum up, GSL Super Tournament is not international by name(BlizzCon 2014, for example, was undeniably international despite being full korean), and it's not made international by its players so, unsurpringly, I would say it counts as a korean tournament.
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Every other tournament he won. Classic is the only player to beat him and not walk away with the trophy (he took 2nd). Not only does Serral lose very rarely, you have to be in pretty good form to beat him AT ALL.
Change that for: You have to be in champion form to beat Serral.
Which player can say that for himself?
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
On August 23 2019 19:00 evilheaven wrote:
congratulations to serral, he is good enough to win any opponents. And I am a TIME fan, I think he can do it well in the next Montreal game and go to the Blizzard con.
Time reminds me of theStC. StC peaked out of nowhere with incredible skill and pushed the limits of the best players at that time. At hist best he even looked better then a player like Puma, but Puma succeeded because he had perfected a build order better then anyone else. Unfortunately, he always fell short in the end. I really thought he had the potential to take a trophy.
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Has any player been number 1 on Aligulac longer than Serral?
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The Glicko rating system that Aligulac uses is claimed by its creator to be almost exactly mirroring the Elo system, so it should be pretty reliable if the claim is true. Looking at the top 10 list, it looks pretty reliable. The lower down the list goes, the less reliable it gets, because (#1) the weaker players don't get the chance to compete in global tournaments as often, and (#2) the nature of the single elimination format of tournaments. The cause of #1 is obviously the region lock, and this is a problem that no rating system can really overcome. All in all, you can say the top 3 in the Aligulac system is very reliable.
In regards to hindrance #2, the round robin format allows all participants to have many games, whereas the SE format doesn't. However, the RR format doesn't allow for too many players to participate, for the obvious mathematical reason. The SE format also gives big rating points to the winner of the tournament. For example, if 8 players of the exact same skill level (say, 1700 rating) compete in a SE tournament, the winner will get a relatively large rating boost, whereas in a RR tournament the ending rating for all participants would be roughly equal, despite there being a technical "winner." However, the more SE tournaments that go on, the more the ratings of all these 8 players will roughly equalize, since they've probably gathered a roughly equal number of matches. Except for one crucial problem: unlike chess which doesn't change, SC2 changes by the season with new maps and patches, and we don't have nearly enough global tournaments to counter how heavily the SE format affects a rating system's reliability.
That's why I said the top 3 on aligulac is very reliable, because these players have had the chance to play the most number of tournament games. Basically, more games played = more reliable rating.
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after seeing this tournament i have to agree that serral is the best player in the world.
BUT there is a but. i think peak MARU was more impressive when he was the best than serral is now assuming we take balance into consideration. if not, serral is just straight up the best imo.
maru was the only terran in RO8 gsl+ WESG and proceeded to win both of those. what i wonder about is serral good enough to be the only Zerg in RO8 of premier tournaments and proceed to win those tournaments?
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EPT
