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On August 22 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
[quote]
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed. International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
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On August 22 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:
Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
For sure you can argue how to count HSC.
It is only a Major Tournament anyways and, as you said, invite-only.
But on the other hand i would argue it is very relevant because it is very international and usually there are a lot of koreans there, too. NA players are invited, too ... but, well, every player has the right to decline ... HSC hasn't too much price money in the end, so it is probably too much cost for too less payback even for players like Neeb and Scarlett (to be honest, these are the only two NA players who have a chance anyways, since Special isn't NA anymore).
And if you want to look if Serral could be contender for GOAT / at same level as Top Koreans ... it doesn't matter anyways if there is a player from NA or not.
But however you will count it ... no point in argueing HSC never will have the same count as an WESG, IEM, GSLvstheWorld or Blizzcon
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Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
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On August 22 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments.
That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed. International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied? Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited.
How does HSC being invitational negate the fact that it is one international tournament? NA players were invited, but couldn't be present(Special cancelled his participation) or just didn't want to go; also, with all the due respect, it's not like NA scene is the most prominent…
HSC XVII and XIX were Major, XVIII(the one Serral won at the end of last year) was a Premier, there is a significant difference in prize pool.
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On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages?
Or another Neeb?
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On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb?
which WESG is this because as far as I can see Neeb and Maru have only played one match against each other in 2019 and Neeb got absolutely BOPPED.
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On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
won those weekenders and nothing else before or after(he wasn't a patchzerg, but can't you really see why he was called that way?); Serral won 3 in a row last year after he became a truly godlike player(HSC 2018 does count, you know) and has performed consistently at top level since then, winning his fourth international Premier(HSC 2019 is a Major) tournament more than 12 months after his first.
GOAT claims are due to hype only, while Bonjwa is referred to Serral's absolute invincibility and jawdropping winning streak last year(he isn't because the scene is split and consensus can't be reached, but the level of domination is surely up there).
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On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. won those weekenders and nothing else before or after(he wasn't a patchzerg, but can't you really see why he was called that way?); Serral won 3 in a row last year after he became a truly godlike player(HSC 2018 does count, you know) and has performed consistently at top level since then, winning his fourth international Premier(HSC 2019 is a Major) tournament more than 12 months after his first. GOAT claims are due to hype only, while Bonjwa is referred to Serral's absolute invincibility and jawdropping winning streak last year(he isn't because the scene is split and consensus can't be reached, but the level of domination is surely up there).
No Rogue was definitely a patchzerg
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On August 23 2019 00:10 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
[quote]
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed. International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied? Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited. How does HSC being invitational negate the fact that it is one international tournament? NA players were invited, but couldn't be present(Special cancelled his participation) or just didn't want to go; also, with all the due respect, it's not like NA scene is the most prominent… HSC XVII and XIX were Major, XVIII(the one Serral won at the end of last year) was a Premier, there is a significant difference in prize pool.
So HSC counts because NA players got invited but cancelled and GSL doesn't count despite NA and EU players participating in it (SortOf and others from EU were in qualifiers)
The fact that you even can come up with this ridicolously flawed logic is astounding and worrying to be honest.
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On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time.
The reason why people didn't shut up about it for over a year was because that moment was actual esports history. KeSPA Cup 2016 was the first time a foreigner won a SC2 tournament on korean soil. And, Neeb won it convincingly. In four matches against Rogue, Zest, Stats, and Trap he lost one map total. Neeb dropped more maps to his practice partner than he did to KeSPA's best players.
IIRC, Neeb was on top of Korean ladder for months beforehand.
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On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion.
I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive.
The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc.
The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them.
Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game.
Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing.
In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise.
On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb?
Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
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The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
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On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote:
The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure.
Better than Life? That's a serious question as someone who doesn't play Zerg
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On August 23 2019 01:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:10 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here.
I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed. International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament. Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied? Fine but Serral's best streak was 2/2 and not 3/3 because HSC wasn't a true international tournament because it was invite-only and no NA player got invited. How does HSC being invitational negate the fact that it is one international tournament? NA players were invited, but couldn't be present(Special cancelled his participation) or just didn't want to go; also, with all the due respect, it's not like NA scene is the most prominent… HSC XVII and XIX were Major, XVIII(the one Serral won at the end of last year) was a Premier, there is a significant difference in prize pool. So HSC counts because NA players got invited but cancelled and GSL doesn't count despite NA and EU players participating in it (SortOf and others from EU were in qualifiers) The fact that you even can come up with this ridicolously flawed logic is astounding and worrying to be honest.
HSC counts because it's a tournament with vastly region mixed participation(at the highest level there are two scenes, WCS and GSL, EU-NA-CHN-TWN-ANZ and every possible non korean local scene aren't relevant) that does not have a residency requirement, neither official nor inherent(unlike Code S).
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On August 23 2019 02:00 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote:
The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure. Better than Life? That's a serious question as someone who doesn't play Zerg
I think even most top european Zergs overtook Life years ago.
Maybe if Life would still play he'd be better but there's no way to know.
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On August 23 2019 01:37 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. You just have to remember not everyone completely ignores one half of Sc2's scene entirely, like you do; also, if you think Serral's achievement can be compared to Neeb's lone KeSpa Cup, we are wasting time in this discussion. I wasn't comparing Serral's achievements to Neeb at all. What Serral did was several times more impressive. The point was that Neeb won a single tournament vs koreans, but was then bad vs them for the following year. Yet people never mentioned the fact he was doing badly against them, they kept bringing up kespa cup as proof that foreigners are equal to koreans and than Neeb was one of the best in the world etc. The idea I'm getting at is that, as a foreigner, you simply have to do less to earn the same praise as a korean. If Trap or Dear had won kespa cup over Neeb, but were then shit for the next year, no one would care about them. Another example was Showtime beating ByuN at blizzcon, or Neeb beating Rogue at blizzcon. The community (including casters) didn't seem to shut up about these matches, despite the fact if you looked at those guy's records they weren't close to to top koreans. Only foreigners get that treatment. When Keen or Creator win a single match (out of maybe 5-10) vs an elite player no one cares. They aren't suddenly praised or remembered as amazing outside of maybe commentary of that game. Another example is Scarlett going deep in GSL in like 1/7 attempts. The hype she had was ridiculous compared with if a lower tier korean like Bunny did the exact same thing. In Serral's case, he's literally won one out of four international tournaments this year. That puts him in the same running as soO, Stats, Maru, Dark, INno, and Classic. Calling him the GOAT or bonjwa is just absurd. If any korean player won 1/4 big events this year no one would call them that. Rogue won four in a row (twice what Serral did) and didn't get a fraction of the same praise. Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 00:11 Locutos wrote:On August 23 2019 00:05 Fango wrote:
Serral is the only player who can win one international event in the whole year and have bonjwa/GOAT arguments thrown at him.
Last year he won 2/4 global events he played in. So for this year he's won 1/4. His best streak is winning two tournaments in a row. That's good but not unprecedented by any means.
Rogue won like four massive weekenders in a row and people called him patchzerg. He wasn't even mentioned in GOAT discussions.
Foreigners just get it easier when it comes to praise. This reminds me of when Neeb won kespa cup (one event) and people didn't shut up about it for over a year, despite him being trash in every non-wcs tournament during that time. Same Neeb who got Ro4 in GSL beating Rogue and outplayed Maru in WESG in group stages? Or another Neeb? Feel to to link any matches that show Neeb in ro4 of GSL or beating Maru at any point in 2017, which was the year I was talking about.
I cannot completely deny that the fact players coming from the one historically weaker scene tend to be more hyped; especially after HoTS, how could western audience be not amazed by Neeb winning a tournament in Korea(the first time in Sc2 history)? I agree that if Trap won that, he wouldn't have lauded as much, but that's because koreans were expected to win and foreigners were severe underdog.
In Serral's case, however, the hype would be justified even if he were an already established top korean player when he started winning, not one foreign prospect struggling to rise as foretold years in advance.
Last year, Serral won 3/5 global events(excluding IEM Pyeonchang as you are doing but including HSC XVIII, there's no reason to leave it out), of which 3 consecutively; that's just as much as Rogue managed to do since, if we add GSL Super Tournament, we should add Serral's WCS titles: 4 consecutive weekenders for Rogue, 6 for Serral(3-3 considering international tournaments only).
Serral in 2018 was dominant like no other player ever was that's why you see people calling him Bonjwa; no koreans achieved his streak and his win ratio, and no one won as many tournaments in a single year. That's not impressive only because he was born in Finland.
In 2019, Serral is not by far the best but his 1/4 in international tournaments is backed up by the best consistency and overall results(ro8 at worst); still a very good deal for any top korean.
As for GOAT claims, they are premature and ultimately unjustifed but, answering your last post in the other thread, do you really believe the koreans you listed had similar period of dominance to Serral's?
And those who come close to that, do they have Serral's consistency? A few of them do, but probably no more than 6-7.
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France12758 Posts
Serral in 2018 was less impressive than Maru’s 2018, especially considering how dominant zerg was and how weak Terran was during the year (in spite of having Maru winning all code S and WESG, Terran as a race won less $$ that year than even Protoss, who didn’t have Serral/Maru).
However, being able to win blizzcon / various international tournaments with top Koreans in it, coming from a foreigner background, is unprecedented.
Serral is the only foreigner that managed to surpass Stephano, and exceeded his dominance among foreigners.
The scene is kinda weaker and he is benefitting from zerg era / protected by WCS, but he manages to stay at the top / good enough to win tournaments, even if not all in 2019, across patches, that’s very impressive.
Problem is GOAT discussion is inherently flawed because the games are different and LotV is mainly a post Kespa era, with barely enough good Koreans to fill out 32 code S seats.
Be it Serral or Maru, there will always be question marks / what if regarding the state of the game. They were too young to peak during SC2 hardest era (even tho Maru managed to win star leagues very early) so unless sc2 rises again this debate wouldn’t end.
Still a wonderful era we are living though.
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The best way to be fair answering the goat question, when analyzing Serral who doesnt play GSL/GSL ST, is to compare him to other players currently, in tournaments both players participate, and also take a look at his winrate vs Opposition.
If you do that, you will come to the conclusion that Serral has been the #1 player in the world arguably for about a year, unarguably since Blizzcon, since his results are far far better and far far more consistent than any other player in a head to head, mathematically, he's superior to every other player before him as well, his korean opposition is the nastiest anyone has ever faced, and he also has the highest Winrate, the one issue with Serral's claim to GOATness is basically the short amount of time he's been on top.
If you want to look @ Aligulac, Serral is currently #2 all time, but is quickly catching up to surpass Innovation.
Looking at KOREAN tournament "wons" and discarding WCS is obviously unfair, since Serral doesnt even enter 50%~ of Korean tournaments.
With all that being said, for me Serral is not the GOAT, but another year with similar results and Blizzcon and he will be.
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On August 23 2019 03:56 Poopi wrote:
Serral in 2018 was less impressive than Maru’s 2018, especially considering how dominant zerg was and how weak Terran was during the year (in spite of having Maru winning all code S and WESG, Terran as a race won less $$ that year than even Protoss, who didn’t have Serral/Maru).
However, being able to win blizzcon / various international tournaments with top Koreans in it, coming from a foreigner background, is unprecedented.
Serral is the only foreigner that managed to surpass Stephano, and exceeded his dominance among foreigners.
The scene is kinda weaker and he is benefitting from zerg era / protected by WCS, but he manages to stay at the top / good enough to win tournaments, even if not all in 2019, across patches, that’s very impressive.
Problem is GOAT discussion is inherently flawed because the games are different and LotV is mainly a post Kespa era, with barely enough good Koreans to fill out 32 code S seats.
Be it Serral or Maru, there will always be question marks / what if regarding the state of the game. They were too young to peak during SC2 hardest era (even tho Maru managed to win star leagues very early) so unless sc2 rises again this debate wouldn’t end.
Still a wonderful era we are living though.
That's your opinion and it's a popular one but there are many who think the opposite is true.
It's noticeable that non Serral Zerg were having great results at the start of the year(Rogue and Scarlett won IEN, Dark reached WESG finals), but while Serral was dominating, Reynor was the only other Zerg to reach a single final considering three WCS, two Code S seasons, GSL vs The World, GSL Super Tournament, BlizzCon and HSC; so much for a race supposed to be that strong.
In 2019 he's back to be a mere top player, no idea how you can think WCS is protecting him...
I want to remind you that KeSpa era took place in a more competitive enviroment in Korea, but HoTS was a less demanding game than LoTV.
Also, Maru was much more committed into Sc2 than Serral, who made the full switch in 2017, was at the time KeSpa was still into sc2.
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On August 23 2019 02:33 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2019 02:00 Z3nith wrote:On August 23 2019 01:47 Tsubbi wrote:
The expected standards by some in these discussions to be considered the best player are ridiculous. The absolute best players can reach winrates above 70% which is insane but doesnt mean they win every tournament in the world. And they dont have to win every tournament in the world to be called the best. Messi or Ronaldo not winning the champions league every year doesnt change the fact that they are far and beyond the greatest football players.
Regarding Serral: I think its harder to appreciate the success of players which dont play your own mainrace. All the little things and details get lost if you cannot understand them. I will never get all the minor optimizations Stats does to get ahead or the way Maru plans a series and executes his builds to stomp his opponents.
But I do understand zerg. I play at amateurish grandmaster level and I've watched all the best zergs in sc2. Like really almost all pro games of the big names. The level of play Serral is showing is above what any of them has been capable of. Its mindboggling how his mechanics can even be this good with his training regime, but they are. His play is so unbelievably clean it makes me happy every time I watch a game of his. His decision making and army control is unmatched. Other good zerg players and pros know what I mean. Reaching MMRs of 7,5k is bonkers and you dont do it by accident. Is he the goat of sc2 I dont know. But he is the best zerg for sure. Better than Life? That's a serious question as someone who doesn't play Zerg I think even most top european Zergs overtook Life years ago. Maybe if Life would still play he'd be better but there's no way to know.
The amount Life was better than every other Zerg was insane. I do believe that if he wasn't stupid enough to throw away his carrer stupidly he would have continue to improve and would have been at the top of the world today.
Or he would have faded away with the rest of the Korean scene with the region lock.
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EPT
