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On August 22 2019 16:15 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 07:04 Fango wrote:On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling. You want people to check their facts? Very well For the GSLs he won: Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats. Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest. Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest. Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic. For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won. Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here. edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats Thanks for the stats I forgot how absurdly good Maru is, wow.
the funny thing is, from what I checked, his offline winrate (in 2018) against Koreans in tournaments other than GSL is only like 50% (map score 29-29, match score 9-7). The preparation format really helped him a lot I think.
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France12770 Posts
On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 15:23 Kitai wrote:On August 22 2019 11:16 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Artosis coming in with the hot takes What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy. Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc. No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind. Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often. To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
I don’t know why so many people make fun of ByuN micro.
Sure it wasn’t great every single time, but generally he was the Terran taking the most cost effective trades. (Maybe not with full armies tho)
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On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
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On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement.
Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments.
That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
The only way you can make Serral's run sound more dominant than the ones of other players is if you treat WCS tournaments equally but than I can also start calling Byun a bonjwa for dominating Olimoleague and so on.
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On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice.
Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
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On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue.
I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here.
I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
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On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
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On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
yep, that is inflated indeed. "tournaments in which all players can participate in" do not equal the most competitive, hardest to win tournaments. There is no evidence in support of otherwise.
If you'd like to continue this specific route - would be good to compare win/loss percentages, number of months for data representation and average "ranking" of the opponents within this data set. I do agree you might be super on point here and that would be a fantastic thing for everyone to get a look at!
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On August 22 2019 18:02 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
yep, that is inflated indeed. "tournaments in which all players can participate in" do not equal the most competitive, hardest to win tournaments. There is no evidence in support of otherwise.
Uuuh... what? Are you arguing a WCS is just as hard to win as a GSL?
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On August 22 2019 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 18:02 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:
I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in.
yep, that is inflated indeed. "tournaments in which all players can participate in" do not equal the most competitive, hardest to win tournaments. There is no evidence in support of otherwise. Uuuh... what? Are you arguing a WCS is just as hard to win as a GSL?
Ofc not, why would i do that? Same as you probably shouldn't argue GSL is as hard to win as WCS. In 2018/2019 (not before). There is no conclusive data to support either of the arguments, so it's pointless. Anyway, would you like to continue this discussion - check on that other part in my previous post.
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On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him.
Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already.
By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that.
Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 22 2019 17:04 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:On August 22 2019 15:23 Kitai wrote:What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy. Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc. No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind. Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often. To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... I don’t know why so many people make fun of ByuN micro. Sure it wasn’t great every single time, but generally he was the Terran taking the most cost effective trades. (Maybe not with full armies tho)
Don't get me wrong, ByuN was the micro beast back when he was on fire. Double the light, half the life or w/e is the thing(in his case quadruple/quarter  ). But when he was objectively worse than his opponent in micro, he shouldn't have said that he's good at it. Yet he insisted on it. Similarly Rogue and the lategame. I bet someone with better memory would bring more examples of this.
Serral is a very strong player and he goes towards a big impression but I simply cannot see him as GOAT even in the near future. The dominance wasn't that big in the short term(e.g. Mvp, Maru, Rogue) and he's not here long enough either(e.g. Maru, Inno, Life, Stats, soO). If anything Serral will eventaully take it through the long time as he's not playing in the Code S so he can't get the shortterm domination unless Blizzard pulls the plug too soon. (and unless some of the current GOAT contenders find their long lost mojo )
On August 22 2019 16:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:On August 22 2019 15:23 Kitai wrote:What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy. Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc. No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind. Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often. To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... He called 3 seperate players a bonjwa last year. I think that tells us how credible his opinion on this matter is.
Ha! Nice one
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On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?).
Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
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On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international?
It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
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On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament.
And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
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On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
International tournament requiring to live in KOREA for three months? Does it ring a bell? That's a korean tournament.
Koreans can play in WCS if they reside there, even if it's harder to get visas and they are forced to stay for a longer period(region lock still exists, after all). International tournaments' commitment is instead tied to be forced to fly somewhere, residency is not a factor. I could say your argument is completely flawed, are you satisfied?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
They can also fly in and out just for the play days. it's not economic nor wise(IMO) but it's possible.
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On August 22 2019 22:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 21:35 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 20:09 Xain0n wrote:On August 22 2019 17:42 Anc13nt wrote:On August 22 2019 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:18 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 17:14 Charoisaur wrote:On August 22 2019 17:04 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long... dude there is a website linked in this very thread with the stats you are referring to and they tell otherwise. Obviously you chose to ignore those stats, because you prefer converting your arguments into facts, while ignoring real evidence. Also this "because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often" is MATHEMATICALLY incorrect statement. Since the beginning of 2018 he won 4 out of 9 international tournaments. If you don't count WESG 2018 and IEM Katowice 2018 because he "wasn't at his peak yet" it's 4 out of 7 international tournaments. That's impressive but not unprecedended. Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments between WESG and GSL season 3, Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments between IEM Shanghai and IEM Katowice. Finally you talk numbers. Make sure you don't inflate those numbers with your personal definition of an "international" tournament and selective time frames that benefit ones over others. But I do respect your getting into quantitative discussion, long overdue. I purposefully "inflated" their numbers by choosing their most dominant periods because we're talking about dominance here. I thought it's clear that with "international" tournaments I meant tournaments in which all players can participate in. I agree with your point that his peak is sometimes over-hyped. Even though Serral looked pretty invincible in his peak (unlike the other three) the main thing that separates it from the others is his match win-streak, and people have very different opinions regarding it's importance. I think the most impressive thing though is that he has a good chance of doing as well this year if Blizzcon goes well for him. Serral did not look invincible at his peak, he effectively was by never losing a single series(offline, and losing once online); also, he's easily the most accomplished player in LoTV already. By the way, regarding Charoisaur's numbers: considering korean tournaments as "international" is a stretch, if we take into consideration the actual international tournaments, Maru only won one and Rogue went on a 3/3 streak just as much as Serral did. If we instead look at every kind of tournaments, Serral's best streak is 6/6 with Life's 5/8 being arguably better than Maru's and 4/6; Rogue actually has 4/5 now that SSL2 Challenge was(rightfully so) demoted to Major. Of course, this implies considering WCS and we will never agree on that. Serral is unprecedent since when he wasn't totally dominant, he was super consistent by at least reaching ro8 in every tournament he ntered(numbers have been shown in some previous post in this thread); Serral's streak took place in a way larger period on time than the others you listed, Maru is 5/15 in the same period with multiple ro16 and two group stages elimination while Rogue just didn't win anything relevant in his whole career outside of that 2017-2018 Golden age(Dear on steroids?). Last time I checked everyone can participate in the GSL so why is it a "stretch" to call it international? It is a korean tournament, part of GSL circuit, that theorically allows everyone to participate; it would not say it's one international tournament since it requires to stay in Korea for approximately three months or to fly in and out multiple times during this period. Residency is almost one hidden requirement to play in Code S, I don't think there was any foreigner who didn't live in Korea while they playing in the tournament. And what's stopping a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months? Nothing which is why lots of them have done that. Your argumentation is completely flawed.
so is yours, i've pointed this many times which you ignore. A lot of things stop a foreigner from living in korea for ~3 months. Why don't you go and live in Kenya for 3 months, mate.
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there's no real difference between GSL and WCS Tournaments: if you take part in one of them, you probably can't compete in the other, due to overlapping schedules, residency etc.
Both tournament formats have their strengths and weaknesses. And we should be very careful to any korean-biased hybris, especially after this gsl vs. the world...
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Even if they would instantly remove region lock, there would be little more competition in gsl or wcs events, as you have to consider the travel and accomodation costs as a risk, when not reaching "the money ranks" in the respective tournament
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EPT
