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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken
Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
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On August 20 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague 
I don't think Team Leagues are important in that case. I mean, sure, if you are a great player you most likely will carry your team quite a bit ... but in the end it is a team competition, and as such the skill and impact of a single player is much less important then in straight 1 vs 1 tournaments.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 21 2019 18:07 JoFar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:Because he doesn't have a starleague victory and he faces koreans rarely while others face Koreans more often? Is it double standards? I don't know, maybe, IDC. If I would be mean I would say that without a noticable team league success he cannot be GOAT either. And I don't see any Acer league, GSL league nor Proleague I don't think Team Leagues are important in that case. I mean, sure, if you are a great player you most likely will carry your team quite a bit ... but in the end it is a team competition, and as such the skill and impact of a single player is much less important then in straight 1 vs 1 tournaments.
Considering the reputation of Proleague. But sure, the time's different. w/o the starleague titles and more consistent play against Koreans as he's fighting just here and there which results in a low pool of games. (which undermines stats)
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On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods.
Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional
-proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs
-proxies everything 75% against protoss
-Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1
Need I to go on?
You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
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On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
Other than the series against KeeN, you just made up those stats and demand that we accept them. If you want to be taken seriously, go through the vods and find out how often he actually proxies and cite that.
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On August 22 2019 00:43 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling. Other than the series against KeeN, you just made up those stats and demand that we accept them. If you want to be taken seriously, go through the vods and find out how often he actually proxies and cite that.
I dont need to go through Vods. It's called the eye test.
Most non Maru fan boys will agree his 2018 was a total proxy fest.
But you are a know terran fan boy so I could care less what you think. You can keep stay in denial and keep worshiping your hero
User was banned for this post.
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On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling.
You want people to check their facts? Very well
For the GSLs he won:
Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats.
Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest.
Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest.
Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic.
For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim
For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain
In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won.
Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here.
edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
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On August 22 2019 07:04 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling. You want people to check their facts? Very well For the GSLs he won: Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats. Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest. Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest. Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic. For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won. Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here. edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Those stats highlight that Maru wasn't generally addicted to proxies, but he definitely was in season 3(and sOs punished him for that at BlizzCon).
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Facts gleaned from the tournament
We need to have it every year
Serral is THE best player in SC2, regardless of race
Elazer put on a very impressive show this week, way more than I expected.
Caveat: despite his performance he still pulled a very underhanded move to get voted in. I think what upsets me the most isn’t that he proved his critics wrong but he took the power of choice completely away from us SC2 (literally 8000 people created accounts, voted for him and left without checking any other boxes) fans as a community and for that: he’s turned me into a hater for the time being.
The Team Match is fine: the only thing I’d tweak is that the winner needs to send out a player from the other circuit.
Koreans did not get worse; foreigners got better
Why does Neeb keep doing this to me...?
Afreeca TV’s production value is off the hook and Blizzard could learn a few things from them.
BlizzCon is going to be very interesting....
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When ppl dont take Serral into consideration for GOAT... do they keep in mind how many times Maru, Innovation and other active GOAT contenders have left championships in the early stages - and in almost 2 years (TWO YEARS), Serral has always delivered.
Here goes for those who simply do not seem able to picture it all...
Last 8 tourneys Serral participated with top Koreans in it:
Blizzcon 2018. Serral Champion. Maru top 8. Inno didnt qualify. Rogue top 4, lost to Serral.
GSLvTW 2019. Serral Champion. No comment on the rest.
GSLvsTW 2018. Serral champion. Beat Inno and Dark. Maru top 8. Rogue top 16.
IEM 2019 -Serral Top 8 (loses to Soo 3 -2. Soo Champion) Maru, Inno, Rogue go down on group stages.
IEM 2018 - Serral , Maru top 4 - Inno down in group stages. - Rogue Champion.
WESG 2018 - Serral 2nd. Loses to Innovation 4 -3. Maru top 4. Serral beats Dark 3 -1.
WESG 2017 - Serral 3rd. beats Classic 3 -1. Maru Champion.
ASUS ROG 2019. Serral Top 4. lost 3 -2 to Stats. Stats champion. Maru didnt play. Innovation out in group stages.
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Does anyone recall other player who had similar world-like period dominance run ? Maybe Rain in 2012/13?
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On August 22 2019 09:13 Locutos wrote:
When ppl dont take Serral into consideration for GOAT... do they keep in mind how many times Maru, Innovation and other active GOAT contenders have left championships in the early stages - and in almost 2 years (TWO YEARS), Serral has always delivered.
Here goes for those who simply do not seem able to picture it all...
Last 8 tourneys Serral participated with top Koreans in it:
Blizzcon 2018. Serral Champion. Maru top 8. Inno didnt qualify. Rogue top 4, lost to Serral.
GSLvTW 2019. Serral Champion. No comment on the rest.
GSLvsTW 2018. Serral champion. Beat Inno and Dark. Maru top 8. Rogue top 16.
IEM 2019 -Serral Top 8 (loses to Soo 3 -2. Soo Champion) Maru, Inno, Rogue go down on group stages.
IEM 2018 - Serral , Maru top 4 - Inno down in group stages. - Rogue Champion.
WESG 2018 - Serral 2nd. Loses to Innovation 4 -3. Maru top 4. Serral beats Dark 3 -1.
WESG 2017 - Serral 3rd. beats Classic 3 -1. Maru Champion.
ASUS ROG 2019. Serral Top 4. lost 3 -2 to Stats. Stats champion. Maru didnt play. Innovation out in group stages.
Every time Serral has not been the champion of a tournament, the player who knocked him out ended up with that tournament’s title. Note THAT!
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Should we all flood the Korean government’s inbox and tell them to #FreeClassic for BlizzCon...?
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Artosis coming in with the hot takes
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I saw someone mention Korean personalities earlier. Yes boring Korean personalities were complained of during SC2. It's just weird the first foreigner to beat them; is actually more boring than the Koreans.
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What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 22 2019 15:23 Kitai wrote:What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy.
Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc.
No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind.
Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often.
To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
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On August 22 2019 15:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 15:23 Kitai wrote:What Artosis really did there was provide Serral with the ultimate challenge. Calling him the GOAT was just a set-up to a test no gamer has passed before: Surviving the Artosis curse. If Serral can go forth at this point without slumping by the end if the year, he will have passed this final hurdle and truly be proven GOAT-worthy. Can we take him seriously though? He has a foreigner bias and he called many players the best before and it didn't work. E.g. Rogue and the "best late game ZvP" while Rogue was losing in the lategame. Or the "ByuN best micro" while he was standing in a storm. etc. No offense to ARty, but sometimes he's either trolling or completely blind. Edit> Also Serral isn't as dominant as it sounds, there were more top tourneys, he didn't win them all. He doesn't match the Koreans all the time. Any statistics against Koreans will be flawed because they have to face the top players more and therefore they have bigger chance to lose more often. To the comment "how often Maru or Innovation lost" yeah, and how often they played agaisnt the top and for how long...
He called 3 seperate players a bonjwa last year. I think that tells us how credible his opinion on this matter is.
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On August 22 2019 07:04 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling. You want people to check their facts? Very well For the GSLs he won: Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats. Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest. Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest. Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic. For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won. Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here. edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Thanks for the effort. Must've taken a while but I wish people used numbers more in discussions like this. Then again, being accurate is usually hard.
Edit: As for Serral being Bonjwa. He's not quite there yet but he is as close as any of the other contenders. His peak is around as good as Inno, Rogue and Maru's. Just my opinion but I've always felt that his peak is arguably a bit worse than the other 3 in terms of the quality of the tournaments that he won but it's not totally his fault because he can't play GSL. It's possible that if he played 3 GSLs instead of 4 WCS, he has good chance of at least winning like 1 and getting far in the other 2, which I consider to be better than winning 4 WCS. In some sense, his peak is also a bit better than the others since he almost never lost any series (and his vs-Korean win-rate was considerably higher than Maru or Rogue).
I've thought about it and I have a feeling if he does well at Blizzcon he may be the LotV GOAT by the end of this year (right now I'd rank him at around #3 or #4).
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France12911 Posts
On August 22 2019 07:04 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 23:40 NbaLover wrote:On August 21 2019 17:02 deacon.frost wrote:On August 21 2019 04:30 NbaLover wrote:On August 20 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2019 00:19 Xain0n wrote:On August 20 2019 00:16 deacon.frost wrote:On August 19 2019 23:58 Locutos wrote:
Great tournament!!!
Is there anyone still doubting Serral is the Greatest player of all time in SC 2?? He's not. Why would he be? There are many players more acomplished than him. He isn't, in fact, but the players more accomplished than him aren't that many, unlike you say. Serral may very well become the greatest if he keeps having those amazing results with this unprecendent consistency at the highest level. He will never be regarded as the greatest of all time even if he wins everything from now on for the same reason Rain will never be regarded as the greatest BW player of all time if he wins everything from now on. Using your same logic. Maru and Innovation will never be regarded as the greatest of all time except for Terran fanboys. Maru only won with broken proxies and a dying korean scene Innovation can't win GSL's unless Terran is OP or Broken Maru didn't use that many proxies. Check the facts or check the vods. Lol... not many proxies... oh boy only terran fan boys can be this delusional -proxies 2 rax 50% against zergs -proxies everything 75% against protoss -Not to mention he needed to proxy two rax reapers against KEEN for two straight games since Keen outplayed him in G1 Need I to go on? You might need to check your facts or stop trolling. You want people to check their facts? Very well For the GSLs he won: Season 1 - 9-4 in TvP with 2 proxy games, Beat Dear, sOs, and Stats. Season 2 - 12-2 in TvP with 1 proxy games. Beat Dear, Patience, Classic, and Zest. Season 3 - 6-1 in TvP with 7 proxy games. Beat Neeb and Zest. Season 4 - 13-3 in TvP with 0 proxy games. Beat herO, Dear, Trap, and Classic. For the OSL he won: 7-3 in TvP with 1 proxy. Beat Stats and Jim For he SSL he won: 8-3 in TvP with 2 proxy games. Beat Ruin, sOs, Trap, and Rain In total that's 55 - 16 (77.5%) in TvP, with 18% of games being proxies. Not even 1/5 of his TvPs had them in the events that he won. Usually I wouldn't put this much effort into replying to someone that's a complete idiot, but I did the stats on Maru's TvPs in a post the other day so just copied them here. edit: damn he's already been banned. oh well good stats are good stats
Thanks for the stats I forgot how absurdly good Maru is, wow.
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EPT
