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On August 25 2019 04:05 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 03:31 BisuDagger wrote:On August 24 2019 23:45 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I agree, Serral is nothing like a BW bonjwa.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited. Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point. Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully. Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing. I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation. I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too. I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT. Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL.
It's the opposite. If he would be korean nobody would even think about calling him bonjwa. (except maybe Artosis).
It's just annoying fanboys who say that because for them a white guy doing what multiple koreans have done before makes it instantly 10 times as impressive.
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I know people weigh WCS differently but nowadays, I weigh it around as much as a GSL semifinal (in terms of difficulty and prestige) personally (1/4 value of GSL). I wonder what other people think. I think if people actually compared the strength of GSL and WCS in terms better than " GSL is way better" or just "slightly better," that would clarify why people have such different opinions on Serral's successes.
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On August 25 2019 06:34 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 05:09 Musicus wrote:On August 25 2019 04:57 Fango wrote:On August 25 2019 04:47 Majick wrote:On August 25 2019 04:33 Fango wrote:On August 25 2019 04:05 Majick wrote:On August 25 2019 03:31 BisuDagger wrote:On August 24 2019 23:45 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I agree, Serral is nothing like a BW bonjwa.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited. Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point. Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully. Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing. I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation. I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too. I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT. Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL. This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa. If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them) Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas. INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders. You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping. What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia. Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well. Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. Liquipedia seems really inconistant on what counts as a premier events to begin with so you kinda just have to make up your own metric. It lists the 2016 cross finals as a premier event despite no one actually taking it as more than a showmatch. About half the HSC events are "premier" and half are "major". I also think some tournaments are just worth more than others. Starleagues reign supreme. Katowice is worth more than smaller weekenders etc. And even then you can get into ranking which runs are better than others. As far as Serral winning WCS events goes, they're irrelevent when comparing him to the all time great streaks. Mvp, INno, Maru, Zest etc in their primes would have smashed tournaments had they gone up against the same level of competition. I don't see how it's unfair to exclude events that featured no (or very weak) competition. I'd argue that none of Serral's WCS wins had him beat even a single top 10 player. Neeb had a 15% winrate vs koreans in 2017 and still came damn close to winning 4/4 WCS events. Serral since the start of 2018 has played 8 big tournaments that featured at some some of the best in the world. And won 3 of them. I think it's fair to compare that to the others I listed, all of whom had similar streaks over the same number of events
Did all of these players managed to go to the semi except for one time ? Because regularity is a feat too if you're not aware.
And HSC is excluded because it has weak competition ? Good to know Stats, soO, Solar, TY, Innovation are that bads.
Same for the "in their prime" shit, is Maru's victories more meaningful than Serral then? After all, his major success came in this weaker area.
Anwyay, it's really funny how you and others manage to always exactly know the skill level of each player at any freaking time, it's actually amazing as if you're operating at the top of each ladder.
Btw, it seems really bold and really crazy to think Maru would have won 4 times in a row the wcs considering how he performs without prep.
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On August 24 2019 23:45 StarcraftSquall wrote:Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited. Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point. Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully. Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing.
He’s not must see SC. I don’t watch his ZvZs and his WCS games vs Terran and Protoss players that he completely outclasses.
Also, the conversation probably will not be revisited except by his fanboys.
Look at sOs for example. His overall level of success in the biggest tournaments was absurd. Made deep runs or outright won in almost everything. The man won two Blizzcons. Serial would be lucky to reach that level of decoration (especially without participating in code s). And yet sOs bonjwa is never a conversation. Neither is whether rogue is a bonjwa.
I feel like anyone who thinks serral is the GOAT or is the first bonjwa (as in he’s doing something unprecedented at the moment ) has only started closely following sc2 in 2018.
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Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
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On August 25 2019 08:37 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
In terms of titles and tournament results, sOs resume blows serrals out of the water. There’s no way to argue otherwise.
If you want to dissect a 1 year peak then you can look no further than Maru and his unmatched Code s streak.
Serral is incredible but he is not the GOAT by either metric
If he can win another blizzcon he’ll at least be closer to sOs level
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On August 25 2019 08:37 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
Depends if you include HSC or not. If you don't, his winrate is 64.58% which is lower than Innovation's 68.78%. Even if you include HSC (which didn't have as stiff competition as his other wins so that's why I made the distinction), it's 67.86%, which is still lower. Inno probably had easier competition but "much, much easier is exaggeration" since after GSL ro32, his opponents become pretty similar in strength to Serral's opponents. I think even if you removed Inno's weaker Korean opponents (but then you should compare his new winrate to Serral's 2018 winrate without HSC for sake of fairness), his winrate would still be like mid 60% but that's just speculation. Also, keep in mind Serral rarely fought Korean terran in 2018 and kept the win-rate over only a third as many games. I think Serral's winrate in 2018 is still a more impressive feat than Inno's despite all of those considerations, but by a pretty narrow margin.
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On August 25 2019 08:11 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 06:34 Fango wrote:On August 25 2019 05:09 Musicus wrote:On August 25 2019 04:57 Fango wrote:On August 25 2019 04:47 Majick wrote:On August 25 2019 04:33 Fango wrote:On August 25 2019 04:05 Majick wrote:On August 25 2019 03:31 BisuDagger wrote:On August 24 2019 23:45 StarcraftSquall wrote:
I agree, Serral is nothing like a BW bonjwa.
Of course not... yet. If he continues down this path however, this conversation will no doubt be revisited. Most of Flash’s accomplishments in BW are history so we have a much better picture of how good he is/was at this point. Serral is currently in the middle of building his resume and we won’t see his full picture for quite a while, hopefully. Regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not right now, the kid is must-see-SC. We all stop and watch when he’s playing. I think it is time SC2 had the bonjwa terms defined. In BW it was pretty clear. We had an elite few that went 3-3 OSL/MSL or some very similar variation. I feel like in SC2, the current community stance is that GSLs are a requirement for Bonjwa status. Which I believe is a very fair statement. Maru already won his 3+ there. He also one a SSL(?). So what possible tournaments remain to put him in a category by himself. If Life was around, how far off was he from Bonjwa status too. I do believe it is possible for Serral to one day be the GOAT without winning a GSL, but never be considered a bonjwa. And Maru to be a bonjwa, but not the GOAT. Serral is obviously the first bonjwa of SC2. If he was Korean everybody would be shouting that already. It has nothing to do with GSL. This has to be a joke. There are koreans who have won much more than Serral and never been called bonjwa. If Serral won the same events, but competed in korea/was korean, he wouldn't have half the praise. Let alone be called a bonjwa Serral's streak in global events: ro4 Katowice ro4 WeSG 1st GSLvsTW 1st Blizzcon ro8 Katowice 2nd WeSG ro4 Asus ROG 1st GSLvsTW Serral went 3/8 in big tournaments (with koreans) 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them) Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas. INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months Maru went 4/7 in 7 months Zest went 3/7 in 8 months Mvp went 5/12 in 12 months And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders. You are manipulating the data to prove your point here. It's like saying Maru's GSL wins don't count because Serral wasn't there. Also I think bonjwa was never about winning more in a shorter time frame but rather about staying consistently dominant over a longer period without slumping. What data have I manipulated? I just looked at their results pages on liquipedia. Maru's GSL count because they had all the best players in the world in them (minus one). I assume you're trying to argue that Serral's WCS wins should be included as well? And to that I say he didn't beat a single elite/top 10 player in any of them. I didn't include minor tournaments or events with trash competition for anyone. Same reason I didn't include Zest's IeSF cup, or Maru's asian games, or INnoVation's VSL win etc And all of those koreans I listed were the best players in the world at their primes. If they were given four extra tournaments a year without a single elite player in them, they'd have won all four as well. Not saying Serral is a Bonjwa or so. But I think you either look at LP and take the results as they are listed and include WCS, or you make up your own metrics. Liquipedia seems really inconistant on what counts as a premier events to begin with so you kinda just have to make up your own metric. It lists the 2016 cross finals as a premier event despite no one actually taking it as more than a showmatch. About half the HSC events are "premier" and half are "major". I also think some tournaments are just worth more than others. Starleagues reign supreme. Katowice is worth more than smaller weekenders etc. And even then you can get into ranking which runs are better than others. As far as Serral winning WCS events goes, they're irrelevent when comparing him to the all time great streaks. Mvp, INno, Maru, Zest etc in their primes would have smashed tournaments had they gone up against the same level of competition. I don't see how it's unfair to exclude events that featured no (or very weak) competition. I'd argue that none of Serral's WCS wins had him beat even a single top 10 player. Neeb had a 15% winrate vs koreans in 2017 and still came damn close to winning 4/4 WCS events. Serral since the start of 2018 has played 8 big tournaments that featured at some some of the best in the world. And won 3 of them. I think it's fair to compare that to the others I listed, all of whom had similar streaks over the same number of events Did all of these players managed to go to the semi except for one time ? Because regularity is a feat too if you're not aware. And HSC is excluded because it has weak competition ? Good to know Stats, soO, Solar, TY, Innovation are that bads. Same for the "in their prime" shit, is Maru's victories more meaningful than Serral then? After all, his major success came in this weaker area. Anwyay, it's really funny how you and others manage to always exactly know the skill level of each player at any freaking time, it's actually amazing as if you're operating at the top of each ladder. Btw, it seems really bold and really crazy to think Maru would have won 4 times in a row the wcs considering how he performs without prep.
If you mean Maru plays WCS with Serral, Maru would probably run into Serral in multiple of them and win and lose some of their matches. So, in that case, I agree Maru wouldn't win 4 in a row. However, that is not really fair because Serral did not have to meet a top 3 player like Maru at all to win his 4 WCS so Maru should not be expected to do the same either. So if we allow that Maru plays WCS without Serral, I honestly don't see anyone from WCS beating Maru (did you watch Maru vs Reynor at WCG), maybe except for Special. So he'd probably win at least 3 out 4 of the WCS, if you ask me.
I don't think he would likely win 4 out of 4 like some others though because even Serral shouldn't be expected to win 4 out of 4 WCS (he could've lost to many zerg along the way) and this year, he only won 1/3 WCS tournaments he was in. That said, it's worth noting Reynor is basically Serral's equal in ZvZ (maybe not anymore after today lol) while I can't see any WCS player giving Maru serious trouble as Reynor has for Serral.
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Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
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On August 25 2019 09:32 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 08:37 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Please, sOs played on every SSL/GSL during those 2 blizzcons and was not able to win much else.
Even looking at just his winrate in 2013 (his best year by far), it was quite inferior to Serral's 2018 to now KR winrate, also the quality of opponents is not even close to the same (considering only vs KR games).
Innovation's December 2016 - August 2017 run, also falls bellow Serrals KR winrate, and again, facing much much easier Korea competition.
Serral is incredible, and must see starcraft if you can appreciate players that play other races or aren't from Korea, there's a reason he set the MMR record in KR, and is uncontested on Aligulac #1 pro.
In terms of titles and tournament results, sOs resume blows serrals out of the water. There’s no way to argue otherwise. If you want to dissect a 1 year peak then you can look no further than Maru and his unmatched Code s streak. Serral is incredible but he is not the GOAT by either metric If he can win another blizzcon he’ll at least be closer to sOs level
GOAT is about career achievement, Bonjwa is about utter dominance in a certain period.
sOs surely is one of the greats, but when were you dreaming when you wrote the part about him making deep runs in every tournament? He didn't do that, and he wasn't especially dominant as well, he "just" performed incredibly right in time to win the biggest tournaments.
If Serral wins another BlizzCon he'll be way ahead of sOs.
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On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
There is no reason not to include HSC in any of case.
Also, as you were previously saying, the way you perceive Serral's greatness is deeply influenced by how much you rate WCS; thinking it is worth nothing, like certain ones have been doing for years(I hope those people enjoyed Elazer vs Serral, because they would deserve to see this kind of finals many more times), makes it impossible to have a discussion. There is no way a middle ground could be found when opinions are so radically different; I'm surprised people aren't bored of writing always the same things, in vain.
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On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway).
Inflation doesnt matter, you can do the same with ranking rather than rating, that doesn't inflate, Serral's average opposition is much better.
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On August 25 2019 10:47 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway). You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017. There is no reason not to include HSC in any of case. Also, as you were previously saying, the way you perceive Serral's greatness is deeply influenced by how much you rate WCS; thinking it is worth nothing, like certain ones have been doing for years(I hope those people enjoyed Elazer vs Serral, because they would deserve to see this kind of finals many more times), makes it impossible to have a discussion. There is no way a middle ground could be found when opinions are so radically different; I'm surprised people aren't bored of writing always the same things, in vain.
The funny thing is terribleplayer1 was the one who took only 9 months into consideration. I looked at the year as a whole for Inno and Serral to make sure I wouldn't be intentionally cherry-picking dates. I'm not saying terribleplayer1 did do that at all, for clarififcation, but it was not me who wanted to "take only nine months in consideration."
I think people are misunderstanding why I brought up HSC. This is my fault since it wasn't clear why I brought it up until I wrote "but then you should compare his new winrate to Serral's 2018 winrate without HSC for sake of fairness" a few sentences later. Also, I should not have compared Serral's adjusted winrate to Inno's non-adjusted winrate. It's not a fair comparison to make.
So I want to say of course I think HSC should be included in Serral's offline Korean winrate. To repeat my point from earlier, if you want to look at each players winrate against top opposition (by that I mean like top 10-20) then you should remove Inno's games against Losira, etc but you should also remove the HSC games too (maybe include Serral versus Innovation but that would only worsen Serral's winrate). That's the main reason why I brought up the distinction in the first place.
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Innos winrate for either just 2013/2014 is lower as well @ 63%.
Filtering for players above on 20th on aligulac, would just drop Inno's winrates a lot more than Serral's anyways.
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On August 25 2019 10:47 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway). You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017.
With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
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France12758 Posts
Of course it’d be lower, Aligulac ratings inflate over time, and foreigners ranking inflate as well.
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On August 25 2019 13:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 10:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway). You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017. With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size.
15 games? More like 21 series.
Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
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On August 25 2019 19:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 13:36 Charoisaur wrote:On August 25 2019 10:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway). You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017. With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size. 15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that.
Just checked it again. You're wrong, he won 18 series in a row and that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can't compare his winrate across 18 games to the winrates of koreans over 50+ games.
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On August 25 2019 20:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2019 19:13 Xain0n wrote:On August 25 2019 13:36 Charoisaur wrote:On August 25 2019 10:47 Xain0n wrote:On August 25 2019 10:18 Anc13nt wrote:Aligulac rating inflates a lot every year (inflation seems to have slowed down a bit though, in fairness). I did include HSC. My point later on was, if you're going to remove Inno's games against weaker Koreans, it would be fair to remove HSC because no one among Taeja, Bunny, INno, soO and Trap was a top player at the time. Also, I don't know why you cut it off at August and included online (offline it's even higher than my number; it's 70.98% for your time range). Online is basically irrelevant in my opinion because the stakes are a lot lower and players like Stats clearly play far worse online than offline. Lastly, I am pretty sure among the weaker Koreans you listed, most of the games Inno played against them were online so by removing online games from consideration, your point that Serral played much tougher competition is no longer evident (it's really too subjective to argue anyway). You want to take only nine months in consideration? From May 2018 to February 2019, when Serral was undefeated against korean, he had a much better win ratio than Inno's in 2016-2017. With an incredibly low sample size of 15 games. Extremely dishonest to compare that to winrates of koreans over a much larger sample size. 15 games? More like 21 series. Inno's average opponent was way weaker than Serral's, there are both Aligulac and the site previously linked in this thread to check that. Just checked it again. You're wrong, he won 18 series in a row and that doesn't change anything about the fact that you can't compare his winrate across 18 games to the winrates of koreans over 50+ games.
Is a big sample that includes games against very low koreans better than a low sample against very strong koreans? Form is hard to keep in Sc2, if you take into consideration similar amount of games it's harder to mantain a high win ratio for a considerably higher amount of time(20 months over 9 months in the original discussion).
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EPT
