the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you. they would destroy players who would destroy players who would destroy you
also another reality check: there aren't even enough players or enough leagues or enough championships in this scene for any short term numerical analysis to be scientifically significant. it's literally not even unlikely that at any given time there can be a skewed amount of top players who play a certain race simply because of random variation.
On April 09 2019 22:05 brickrd wrote: the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you
You're wrong on two counts. 1. All people from all MMR ranges whine about balance, including GSL pros, and top foreign players (over 6k mmr) 2. The people who are most engaged in these conversations dont play much at all (or not anymore). Take any sport, the biggest, most devoted fans are never those who are semi-pros or play the game vocationally, but observers who get really invested in following the scene, know all the results, watch most of the games.
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
On April 09 2019 22:05 brickrd wrote: the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you. they would destroy players who would destroy players who would destroy you
also another reality check: there aren't even enough players or enough leagues or enough championships in this scene for any short term numerical analysis to be scientifically significant. it's literally not even unlikely that at any given time there can be a skewed amount of top players who play a certain race simply because of random variation.
So the low rate of Terrans has nothing to do with balance or the game, they're simply not good. Good to know.
Also I can't cook but I can tell when the food is bad. I don't know how to play in GM but I can tell that having 2 weekenders with top players and having low Terran rate isn't normal for "a balanced game". Balanced means it should aim at equal ratio. While on such low numbers the scale can move a little bit, we're talking about a huge shift which should be alarming(at least).
And we're talking about 2 huge shifts in a row, the probability is way too low. If we scratch MAru from the equation(as he's statistical anomaly same as Serral) we get horrendous numbers for Terran in the 18 months or so.
We have to work what we have now and it doesn't look good.
Does anyone know who the casters will be for this event? I'd imagine that Tastosis will be there, but I wonder if they'll bring on anyone else, and if so, who.
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
Terran as a race has a better chance in tournaments with long preparation against 1 opponent than it has in a weekender kind of tournament format. Therefore when we discuss balance on the pro level we need to distinguish which balance we are talking about, are we talking GSL balance, weekender balance or ladder balance. Obviously terran is doing slightly better in GSL than in weekenders and therefore using terrans results in GSL to argue that weekender or ladder is balanced is a bad argument.
You make a couple of mistakes, for one Innovation winning WESG says absolutely nothing about TvP balance. In that tournament Innovation only played a single protoss player, that was Rail which he defeated 3-1. The second mistake you make is when you say that 2 out of 16 terrans look bad, when we look at the result of the weekender style qualifier we actually have the result of 1 terran out of 14 slots. Marus seed says nothing about weekender balance. It doesn't look bad it looks horrendous.
Edit: In answer to brickrd's comment, immagine having gsl round 32 be 16 protoss and 16 zergs for three seasons in a row. We as fans couldn't possible have an opinion on that, we are way underqualified because we are not professionals.
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
the problem is we have 1 IEM and 1 Blizzcon, tournaments that are super stacked, super anticipated, big payoff. And they re about half a year apart. So basically you have 1 of these tournaments per semester, definetly 1 per patch at most. If you want to draw any conclusions about the state of the game based on results, you simply cannot rely on a data set of 1 (or 2).
The rest of the tournaments are these special cases. Either not good enough lineup, or a different format, or only foreigners etc....
At the end of the day, it's impossible to draw clear conclusions, cuz most of the results we have can be explained as anomalies or format.
And yeah, sure, you can argue with terrans doing badly at WCS and supertournaments, and I can point out they won WESG and code S. Neither dataset is really enough to draw a good, solid conclusion. The difference is, some here scream Terran underpowered, while i'm not screaming overpowered, im just poking at the whiners.
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
On April 09 2019 22:05 brickrd wrote: the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you. they would destroy players who would destroy players who would destroy you
also another reality check: there aren't even enough players or enough leagues or enough championships in this scene for any short term numerical analysis to be scientifically significant. it's literally not even unlikely that at any given time there can be a skewed amount of top players who play a certain race simply because of random variation.
So the low rate of Terrans has nothing to do with balance or the game, they're simply not good. Good to know.
Also I can't cook but I can tell when the food is bad. I don't know how to play in GM but I can tell that having 2 weekenders with top players and having low Terran rate isn't normal for "a balanced game". Balanced means it should aim at equal ratio. While on such low numbers the scale can move a little bit, we're talking about a huge shift which should be alarming(at least).
And we're talking about 2 huge shifts in a row, the probability is way too low. If we scratch MAru from the equation(as he's statistical anomaly same as Serral) we get horrendous numbers for Terran in the 18 months or so.
We have to work what we have now and it doesn't look good.
Terrans, even excluding Maru, had a quite balanced showing in GSL, which I have been assured is the only tournament that counts. Can't risk unbalancing GSL for some silly weekenders!
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
On April 09 2019 22:05 brickrd wrote: the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you. they would destroy players who would destroy players who would destroy you
also another reality check: there aren't even enough players or enough leagues or enough championships in this scene for any short term numerical analysis to be scientifically significant. it's literally not even unlikely that at any given time there can be a skewed amount of top players who play a certain race simply because of random variation.
So the low rate of Terrans has nothing to do with balance or the game, they're simply not good. Good to know.
Also I can't cook but I can tell when the food is bad. I don't know how to play in GM but I can tell that having 2 weekenders with top players and having low Terran rate isn't normal for "a balanced game". Balanced means it should aim at equal ratio. While on such low numbers the scale can move a little bit, we're talking about a huge shift which should be alarming(at least).
And we're talking about 2 huge shifts in a row, the probability is way too low. If we scratch MAru from the equation(as he's statistical anomaly same as Serral) we get horrendous numbers for Terran in the 18 months or so.
We have to work what we have now and it doesn't look good.
Terrans, even excluding Maru, had a quite balanced showing in GSL, which I have been assured is the only tournament that counts. Can't risk unbalancing GSL for some silly weekenders!
Also let's not forget Innovation just won WESG. That just happened. Terran is still doing better than Protoss but people have a mental block that Protoss is supposedly too strong so they ignore its lack of tournament wins.
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
On April 09 2019 22:05 brickrd wrote: the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you. they would destroy players who would destroy players who would destroy you
also another reality check: there aren't even enough players or enough leagues or enough championships in this scene for any short term numerical analysis to be scientifically significant. it's literally not even unlikely that at any given time there can be a skewed amount of top players who play a certain race simply because of random variation.
So the low rate of Terrans has nothing to do with balance or the game, they're simply not good. Good to know.
Also I can't cook but I can tell when the food is bad. I don't know how to play in GM but I can tell that having 2 weekenders with top players and having low Terran rate isn't normal for "a balanced game". Balanced means it should aim at equal ratio. While on such low numbers the scale can move a little bit, we're talking about a huge shift which should be alarming(at least).
And we're talking about 2 huge shifts in a row, the probability is way too low. If we scratch MAru from the equation(as he's statistical anomaly same as Serral) we get horrendous numbers for Terran in the 18 months or so.
We have to work what we have now and it doesn't look good.
Terrans, even excluding Maru, had a quite balanced showing in GSL, which I have been assured is the only tournament that counts. Can't risk unbalancing GSL for some silly weekenders!
Also let's not forget Innovation just won WESG. That just happened. Terran is still doing better than Protoss but people have a mental block that Protoss is supposedly too strong so they ignore its lack of tournament wins.
If GSL is the only tournament that counts Zerg needs help Protoss is doing fine then
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
the problem is we have 1 IEM and 1 Blizzcon, tournaments that are super stacked, super anticipated, big payoff. And they re about half a year apart. So basically you have 1 of these tournaments per semester, definetly 1 per patch at most. If you want to draw any conclusions about the state of the game based on results, you simply cannot rely on a data set of 1 (or 2).
The rest of the tournaments are these special cases. Either not good enough lineup, or a different format, or only foreigners etc....
At the end of the day, it's impossible to draw clear conclusions, cuz most of the results we have can be explained as anomalies or format.
And yeah, sure, you can argue with terrans doing badly at WCS and supertournaments, and I can point out they won WESG and code S. Neither dataset is really enough to draw a good, solid conclusion. The difference is, some here scream Terran underpowered, while i'm not screaming overpowered, im just poking at the whiners.
We. Just. Had. 2. Stacked. Tournaments.
Why do you mix Blizzcon into it? On the recent major patch with we just had 2 stacked tournaments. IEM - 0 Terrans. GSL ST - 2 Terrans(one of whom invited) from 16 contestants. Don't evade from this, we have 2 weekenders with serious participation and it appears all Terrans are saving their builds for Code S.
I'd argue to give Terran more time to figure stuff out/ play like Maru. It seems Terran is not underpowered, just TvP has a slight problem. We had these before. It is not as broken as BL/ Infestor was, so there is no need to jump the gun IMO
On April 09 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: There are some fine points in this thread.
I'd argue to give Terran more time to figure stuff out/ play like Maru. It seems Terran is not underpowered, just TvP has a slight problem. We had these before. It is not as broken as BL/ Infestor was, so there is no need to jump the gun IMO
Yeah, why worry, there are other tournaments to get the money to make the living for the players. Like, uh, like... (now's the time you step in and show how this is not an issue missing 2 or 3 big tournaments because you "lack" in PvT)
I would like to emphasis Maru fucked up IEM too and if he's anything like in the past year he will fuck up GSL ST either, which is not exactly what you especially should be looking for with these arguments(Maru knows, everyone else need to get on his level, it's fine).
BTW did you think about the fact that Maru can be figured out instead and then this argument will be even more invalid?
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
On April 09 2019 22:05 brickrd wrote: the funniest thing about these conversations is that they're being held exclusively between people who are anywhere from 1000-4000 MMR below the players they're talking about. absolutely ludicrous, monumental gap.
when you're higher than 6K MMR and up to pro level your results are personalized to your individual skill, because the only people playing at that level are working with 0.1% talent and an encyclopedic knowledge of how the game is played. so yes, play like maru. play like serral. how you think balance works for these players is irrelevant because they are not even playing the same game as you. they would destroy players who would destroy players who would destroy you
also another reality check: there aren't even enough players or enough leagues or enough championships in this scene for any short term numerical analysis to be scientifically significant. it's literally not even unlikely that at any given time there can be a skewed amount of top players who play a certain race simply because of random variation.
So the low rate of Terrans has nothing to do with balance or the game, they're simply not good. Good to know.
Also I can't cook but I can tell when the food is bad. I don't know how to play in GM but I can tell that having 2 weekenders with top players and having low Terran rate isn't normal for "a balanced game". Balanced means it should aim at equal ratio. While on such low numbers the scale can move a little bit, we're talking about a huge shift which should be alarming(at least).
And we're talking about 2 huge shifts in a row, the probability is way too low. If we scratch MAru from the equation(as he's statistical anomaly same as Serral) we get horrendous numbers for Terran in the 18 months or so.
We have to work what we have now and it doesn't look good.
Terrans, even excluding Maru, had a quite balanced showing in GSL, which I have been assured is the only tournament that counts. Can't risk unbalancing GSL for some silly weekenders!
Also let's not forget Innovation just won WESG. That just happened. Terran is still doing better than Protoss but people have a mental block that Protoss is supposedly too strong so they ignore its lack of tournament wins.
If GSL is the only tournament that counts Zerg needs help Protoss is doing fine then
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote: In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
Terran not terrans. As in Maru. Because Inno winning at WESG last month was the only premier tournament won by a terran not named Maru since August of 2017.
That's true and all, but Inno did win, and it is the most recent Premier event title. Won by a terran not named Maru. The next one gonna be GSL S1, which is gonna be won by Maru or Classic, with Maru being heavily favored by most (me at the least).
So how can you justify the current state of the game being imbalanced against terran, with pointing out how in the period between september 2017 - february 2019 Terrans not named Maru didnt win anything? There have been several patches since, the game and the meta is completely different from 1+ year ago.
Ok, i get, the Supertournament already looks bad for Terrans, 2 out of 16. But cant we at least wait with the terran-whine until (and if) they finally manage to not win the tournament?
What. The. Hell?
IEM - 0 Terrans at RO8. GSL ST - unless Maru pulls his Code S style we're going for 0 too. You want to ignore this because Code S - a different type of tournament(the only preparational tournament) and because of WESG, because WESG had so many good and awesome players. When I look at the roster ANYONE could have won.
We can say IEM was just an anomaly, but now we're having 2 anomalies? Really?
Using WESG is wrong similarly to using WCS. But if you insist of doing this I will use WCS again. WCS has low number of Terrans for years, obviously the race is broken and need repairs. /s
the problem is we have 1 IEM and 1 Blizzcon, tournaments that are super stacked, super anticipated, big payoff. And they re about half a year apart. So basically you have 1 of these tournaments per semester, definetly 1 per patch at most. If you want to draw any conclusions about the state of the game based on results, you simply cannot rely on a data set of 1 (or 2).
The rest of the tournaments are these special cases. Either not good enough lineup, or a different format, or only foreigners etc....
At the end of the day, it's impossible to draw clear conclusions, cuz most of the results we have can be explained as anomalies or format.
And yeah, sure, you can argue with terrans doing badly at WCS and supertournaments, and I can point out they won WESG and code S. Neither dataset is really enough to draw a good, solid conclusion. The difference is, some here scream Terran underpowered, while i'm not screaming overpowered, im just poking at the whiners.
We. Just. Had. 2. Stacked. Tournaments.
Why do you mix Blizzcon into it? On the recent major patch with we just had 2 stacked tournaments. IEM - 0 Terrans. GSL ST - 2 Terrans(one of whom invited) from 16 contestants. Don't evade from this, we have 2 weekenders with serious participation and it appears all Terrans are saving their builds for Code S.
we most definitely did not just have 2 stacked tournaments. We had a one day long qualifier for the supertournament, where a couple of best of 3s decided who s gonna participate in the main event, aside from the direct invites. Protoss wiped the floor with terran in those best of 3s, true. But let s just try to stay somewhat close to the realm of reason, please.
That's quite a few Terrans On a serious note it's quite surprising to see TY and INno knocked out in the qualis. Second in a row for INno and even TY lost in the first round last year to Creator
We don’t really have enough offline tournaments these days to have much to go on.
How do the numbers stack up if we factor in say, Korean online tournaments like Olimoleague?
Is Protoss imba? I don’t really know. They have a ton of flexibility and different styles and builds they can use.
Most of the top tier Protoss players play differently from each other, both in their builds but also their general styles from hyper aggressive to passive and defensive reactive macro.
Terran unless you’re Gumiho being weird feels like ‘play this way, but better.’
So in a weekend tournament, or an online qualifier you’re basically semi-locked in to being predictable, vs players basically as good as you, who can be less predictable and play differently from each other anyway.
In a shorter series length like Bo3, or god forbid Bo1 you have to continually make the right strategic reads every time and play extremely well mechanically to make it through a bracket where you’re running into S class Protoss players.
Terran can be tricky too, but those builds tend to be technical, risky and real map dependent too, or tailored to a particular style so they’re hard to pull out in a weekender and execute to perfection.
When you do get the time to prep for one specific Protoss player, we’ve seen how that can go, but as we know there’s only one tournament that really has a format where you can prep.
What I don’t believe we’re seeing these days (and we have seen this in SC2’s history) is obviously worse Protoss beating way better Terrans all over the place.
I’ll have to go look up some general win-rates but I don’t tho k there are players who are leagues better at vT than vZ and vP. Of vT specialists, they’re still S class overall as players.
On April 09 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: There are some fine points in this thread.
I'd argue to give Terran more time to figure stuff out/ play like Maru. It seems Terran is not underpowered, just TvP has a slight problem. We had these before. It is not as broken as BL/ Infestor was, so there is no need to jump the gun IMO
Yeah, why worry, there are other tournaments to get the money to make the living for the players. Like, uh, like... (now's the time you step in and show how this is not an issue missing 2 or 3 big tournaments because you "lack" in PvT)
I would like to emphasis Maru fucked up IEM too and if he's anything like in the past year he will fuck up GSL ST either, which is not exactly what you especially should be looking for with these arguments(Maru knows, everyone else need to get on his level, it's fine).
BTW did you think about the fact that Maru can be figured out instead and then this argument will be even more invalid?
So you would rather jump the gun, give Terran a buff and break the game completely? Good job! So proud of you!
I see it more like the recent ZvZ changes we've seen. Lurker ling is a thing now. The Muta Meta, which was dead for years, is relevant again. Give Terrans more time. And if it really is the case that Maru gets figured out, I think we are all on the same page that it's time for changes
Not sure what the "you especially" part is about so I chose to ignore it
PvT winrate on the current ladder map pool (which will probably go into the Super Tournament unchanged) as per Liquipedia:
Cyber Forest - 104-58, 64.4% Automaton - 140-100, 58.3% Year Zero - 50-38, 56.8% Port Aleksander - 179-150, 54.4% Yeonsu - 229-192, 54.4% Kairos Junction - 211-195, 52.0% King's Cove - 67-79, 46.9% New Repugnancy - 45-53, 45.9%
Added Yeonsu as reference for a map that was considered genuinely broken (not just in 1 match-up either). If we're really gonna advocate for changes, this should be the first thing we look into as a short term measure.
So I had a look at the last 2 Olimoleagues. The stats:
9 TvP matches. 1 Terran win, and that was Inno vs Creator today.
I discounted matches such as Zest vs Kas or TY vs Durant, where there was an overwhelming favorite to win.
Intresting thing is that before the Olimoleagues were quite even. Both TY and Inno beat some good protosses in February/mid March.
It just seems like tough times for all terrans except Maru in this matchup. And that again goes to what I already mentioned. No Terran has the skill to pull of the style which is so effective against protoss (and TY is just not in form)
On April 09 2019 07:23 Shuffleblade wrote: This racial distribution does point to there being a real balance problem at the highest level.
You mean a balance problem at the second highest level
The balance problem at the highest level (which only one person is playing at) is that T is over powered.
The balance problem at the second highest level (all the pros who aren’t Maru) is that T is underpowered.
It kinda feels like Terran right now is Fox from back in the first golden age of melee. You see glimpses of brokenness, but in the hands of every actually player he’s just too hard to use and so he’s functionaly underpowered and gets beaten by the Marths and Shieks of the world. As time passes and player level goes up, that will change.
On April 09 2019 23:35 Elentos wrote: Quoting myself from the qualifier thread:
PvT winrate on the current ladder map pool (which will probably go into the Super Tournament unchanged) as per Liquipedia:
Cyber Forest - 104-58, 64.4% Automaton - 140-100, 58.3% Year Zero - 50-38, 56.8% Port Aleksander - 179-150, 54.4% Yeonsu - 229-192, 54.4% Kairos Junction - 211-195, 52.0% King's Cove - 67-79, 46.9% New Repugnancy - 45-53, 45.9%
Added Yeonsu as reference for a map that was considered genuinely broken (not just in 1 match-up either). If we're really gonna advocate for changes, this should be the first thing we look into as a short term measure.
Looking at maps is interesting but I think the most important question we need to ask ourselves is why is kings cove and new repugnancy terran favored? I don't know but if for example it is because early game aggression and mid game all-inish pushes are stronger there then I'm skeptical if the mixing the map pool up is really the right way to fix this. If we change to maps that makes those strategies more effective will just make the game(matchup) more boring and stale while hiding how imbalanced the matchup really is.
In regards to the Olimoleague results, as I've said before if you look at the actual PvT results it paints a dark picture. Terran isn't necessarily doing bad in general, they are just doing bad against protoss in particular. Sure it could be that almost every korean protoss all of a sudden is in the best PvT form of their lives or it is a P favored matchup.
My personal guess is that its going to get worse, the reason terran has had decent winrates is because of early game aggression and mid game all in pushes. The reason terran has had decent success with it is because P hasn't found the middle ground between economy/expansion and investing in army/defense. The longer the terran aggression continues the better P will get at defending it, it is the natural evolution of the meta, the defending race will get more and more favored as time passes unless some terran genius figures out some late game strat/composition that actually works.
Edit: General winter you are spot on, I meant on the second highest level =P As I wrote above I disagree with you about Terran getting it easier with time, I think we will see the opposite.
EPT
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